I used to meet a lot of women who allegedly loved me more than any man they’d ever had previously, but went to great lengths to never, ever have sex with me. They weren’t virgins; many had quite the history with men. But I still never got anywhere. Their reasoning was grounded in woman-logic: "I've been hurt by a lot of assholes in the past, and I really care about you, so I want to do this right" or some variation of that.
If you’re a loser, upon hearing that, you’ll think to yourself, “Oh, joy! I’m totally not an asshole, and she notices that and is rewarding me with a real [non-sexual] relationship instead of a shallow one that’s going to fail! I’m so lucky! I’ll wait forever for such a wonderful person! I should find something nice to do for her right now to let her know how grateful I am!”
Here's how that woman-logic sounds to a real guy: "Other men worse than you have gotten farther with me, in less time, with less of an emotional and financial investment. But because I care more about you, I am making you jump through hoops and making you spend a greater amount of time and resources to get less far with me. Because I care more about you. What? Why are you looking at me like that? This makes perfect sense. Yes, giving less to people I care about more makes sense."
Here's what the girl really means: "I've pegged you for a chump. I don't think you have options with other women, and I don't think you're willing to walk away, so I'm going to frame this relationship on my terms. We fuck when I want to, and that's going to be after I've made you jump through a bunch of hoops to prove you're my little compliant bitch who's going to give me all the time, resources, and validation I want, at will. If you were a real man, you’d have fucked me already, but I’ve cast you for the role of bitch. I don’t care about you. I care about me. I don’t even like you. Sex is reserved for real men. You’re not a real man. You’re my bitch.”
Here’s the kicker: Most women don’t know that they really mean this. They just know that the validation feels good, and that a guy who keeps validating them without sex makes them feel powerful, happy, and better about themselves. When any woman hears the line of girl logic, “I’ve been hurt in the past,” it makes perfect sense to them – she’s screwed up by giving it up too easily before and wants to stop screwing up. By stop screwing up, they mean that she needs to do a better job of withholding sex to bait men into doing shit for her to earn it. They don’t know they mean that, but that’s what they mean.
Only in the eyes of a woman does it make sense to give less to a man that you love more. But that’s the rationalization kicking in. If a woman is giving you less, and making you do more for it, that’s the exact opposite of loving you more. Being stingy with affection is the opposite of love. Requiring an exchange of favors rather than just giving of yourself is the opposite of love.
It’s a difficult truth to admit and to accept, not just for us, but for women, too. I think on some level, they want to love that nice guy who’s going out of his way for them, but they just don’t. They can’t. But they tell themselves that they do, and that they’re just taking it slow to avoid getting hurt like they have in the past. Because they love him more. And if things don’t work out, he’s still a great guy – the chemistry just wasn’t there. And if they slip up and screw some hot guy from work, it was a mistake. They don’t love that guy. They love the nice guy, don’t they? They were just drunk.
“I’ve been hurt in the past and want this to be different,” is nothing more than an insidious shit test. By complementing you, telling you that you’re different from every other guy, that you’re not an asshole or a douche, and that she loves you more than every previous man, you’re off-guard when in combination with all of that praise, she denies you sex. Because she loves you more.
"I think on some level, they want to love that nice guy who’s going out of his way for them, but they just don’t."
Replace "nice guy" with husband and the amount of guys blindsided by this would be truly shocking.
A relationship/"I love you" is not something static; at best it is a weak verbal contract being assessed and reassessed daily, whether you are aware of that or not.
The hardest part of TRP for me to swallow. I swear as soon as I heard that "I love you" I let my guard down. "She loves me! I can be my real self!" The hard work was only beginning. Needless to say, I crashed and burned each time I got into an LTR, despite holding most of the cards at the outset.
The "I love you" part is def the hardest part. I go from a professional heavy weight boxer to an average Joe getting beaten on by a professional heavy weight boxer.
Heh it's okay to display some betatude once the "I love you" messages start flying.
To me everytime a girl gives me the "I love you" she is looking for some reassurance. I would rarely ever initiate a "I love you" - give your woman the opportunity and pleasure of giving her emotional world to you
I think LTR is exactly as your say, giving in to her to make her feel more secure in the relationship, with things that are important to her. The most important part during this is to maintain frame; there is a level of commitment there, you both know it, so she will most likely start to push to see how far she gets when you let your guard down. Doing boyfriend things isn't always a bad thing, as long as she maintains her end of the deal. There is nothing wrong with a balancing act, as long as she isn't taking anything you aren't willing to give away.
As soon as she starts playing games, or starts fucking around with a marriage commitment you aren't ready for, or don't want, that is when you need to reestablish yourself in the relationship.
How do you reestablish yourself in your relationship? Say you are doing the nice boyfriend things and she is committing less time to you / is less interested in sex.
Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay
I think it is more keeping her in check; like if she asks you to do a favor, you can do it, but keep in mind her motivation. Most guys let their guard down and start sinking into more serving their gf instead of working with. All girls want to be treated like a princess, but need to be denied it more often than not, to show that you are capable, but only under your rules. As soon as you become her errand boy, she will no longer be interested. Whenever people reference the friend zone, or being a nice guy isn't enough, this is what they are talking about. They want someone to tell her no, and put her in her place, or she won't be attracted to you.
Women always say they want a nice guy to take them out and date them, while a week ago they were being fucked by the guy who decided for her. Women call this rape culture, yet they spend all day fantasizing about it, and reading books about it. Everyone wants to be swept off their feet, and it is tiring and thankless work for guys to do and maintain. When I say reestablish yourself in the relationship, I would more ask her for favors, and deny her some. It sounds like a scumbag thing, but how can someone respect you if you are waiting on them hand and foot? My confident, women mean you are willing to say no, and not give a shit if they try to take away sex or not, you will next them.
You should get to the point where maintaining yourself isn't "hard work", so when some woman says she loves you, there is no "letting your guard down". Staying healthy/working out/etc are not things you do to get women, you do those things for yourself.
To me, it seems more of a mindset. When I was in between marriages, I was RP without realizing it. If by the second or third date, no sex? Then goodbye. Starting being demanding or nagging? Then goodbye. I always had several plates spinning, and an abundance mentality.
But when I settled down and married (either time), it was all about satisfying and making my wife happy. In both marriages, I married high-maintenance, hard-to-satisfy women. Why the hell did I do this? My only excuse is that I didn't know any better. Geez, what I sucker I am. The divorce from my first marriage has just about bankrupted me. My second marriage is on shaky ground and I will lose my house if we split apart. But I don't see it lasting long term.
Two strikes and I'm done. I'm never going to remarry if this second marriage ends. Something happens to my head when I'm decide to marry someone.
Reminds me of the old joke:
Me: Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I hit my head with a hammer!!
Doctor: Don't hit your head with a hammer anymore.
Did that a couple of times. Finally learned. Never say it first. Get your guard up when she says it. Have your response ready. After a couple of weeks you need to think about this- she will say it one day and you can't be tongue tied here.
Or just say no and walk on. Either way, you need a response\action plan.
"Marriage (an LTR) is no insulation from the sexual marketplace."
-Tomassi
Married men need RP more than single men. It's too fucking easy to fall into the trap of the comfortable loser. I mean, if you go and work out, dress well, keep up your confidence, what's the worst that can happen? You go back on the market as a hot commodity. The best case is that she realizes she needs to up her game (working out, dressing up, makeup, sex) to keep you around, because there will be plenty of women willing to vulture you.
You lose 50% of your possessions, the house, alimony and child support payments, she tells your boss and all your friends that you raped her...
That is in your country.
Yes, yes it is.
And then on your way home from work one evening you get hit on the back of the head with a sledgehammer, wake up tied up in some basement and get tortured by fat bald lunatic for 5 days until you die from agonizing wound infrection, because he didn't bother to clean his rusty sickle before piercing your balls with it.
is this from something?
This is truth. You have to keep your game up in any ltr, especially marriage.
Even worse is a post-wall woman clinging to a beta-husband whom she resents yet cannot escape. This is the source of every "marriage is hell" stereotype while simultaneously providing the appearance of NAWALT.
That's just it. It's not a statement, it's an assessment. A women's love is based on her need of a man. When she says "I love you" she's really saying "I still need you...do you need me?" But women don't want a man that needs them.
Most chocolate-covered shit test ever created.
Patrice O'Neal has a fantastic breakdown of this dynamic. If we can keep this in our heads we'll be ok
Ugh fxckkkkkk I've been red pill for a long time but please fckk don't let this be true. Talk about a bitter taste. I'd rather take my vitamins then get sick tho so fuck it.
It's true, but see this article -- women prefer a man who has more important things going on than her. The emotional pressure of being the center of a man's world is totally crushing to a woman.
I think everybody in their right mind would prefer that. Being the center of anyone's world becomes a burden very fast.
That article is gold. Thank you for posting the link.
WUHsorrybroifeelyourpain:(
I'm a fan of Roissy/Heartiste's 3/2 rule. For every 3 texts, "I love you", etc she gives you, you give her 2 back. It tracks right to the #1 rule of relationships: the person who needs the other person the least controls the relationship. It's all about frame control and "having hand".
While it's a good rule, If you have to conciously think about it being someone's rule and applying it, you're really just playing at having hand. Eventually you're going to fail a shit test due to your incongruency.
That last part is a life-changing quote.
No one want a nice guy dude. They want the "truth" of theirs, and the fact that they will not piss her off
not a single wall hitting/hubby searching slut gets it
They say that shit to us and for a second they don't realize they are rubbing our faces in shit. I get to wait and prove my feelings before you put out while we both know you've been passed around like a joint between stoners? You are not like that anymore? Oh lucky fucking me.
It was having this simple realization in highschool that led me to the redpill.
She goes to parties gets wasted and fucks morons, but because I met her under different circumstances I have to do the boyfriend thing and give her 6 months of the princess treatment just hoping I'll get to fuck her? Fuck. That. That is not how value works. You can't have a nice car, treat it like shit for a few years, then go to a dealership and say "yeah...I used to treat this car like it was worth 5K...but I've changed my mind and I want 100K for it now."
"because.. you see, the car has changed."
I love a confident, experienced car.
You all just aren't fucking man enough to handle a car with 200k miles on it.
Ha! I'm imagining Knight Rider sequel (Night Ride Her?) but where Kit has a woman's voice and is constantly shaming everyone.
Or White Knight Rider... the woman takes Kit to visit her alphas, but Kit keeps trying to tell her how special she is and that he'll always be there for her and he'll steamroll any of the alphas if they hurt her.
"ugh.. did you see the hub caps on that little Corvette.. Slllloooootttt!"
I would watch the shit out of that!
You can't appreciate a car with dents like these
Yall need 8 inches minimum for this over-sized RV
This car now strong & independent.
Oh shit. Reminds me of that site back in the late 90's, jiggin.net (?) that had an article about how all chicks are liked lemons (shitty used cars because some other dude likely pumped her and dumped her already). What a flashback. That site and, IIRC it had 'Jake's Booty Call' the flash game on it. Such epic times.
So...so people are cars and should be treated like them?
What's happening here?
Exactly... I have to wait to get in your vagina after you have obviously lead a train of bad boys thought it?
That's my reward for being a decent man? I get to wait to fuck you? Fuck off. Next.
Every cock she has taken just brought her one cock closer to yours.
Cue tearjerker romantic music.
500 miles of alpha, 6 to 8 inches at a time.
Yeep ignore what she is saying to you. She doesn't actually love you more and she is not as attracted to you as the other guys she's laid. You're nice, polite, sensitive, letting her dominate the relationship and calling the shots, and you're not going for what you really want (ass). You give off an aura of neediness and emotional attachment. This problem never should happen in the first place if you took the correct steps in escalating and being a man. Some helpful tips for anyone who doesn't ever want this to happen.
a. You're a man and you want pussy Your actions should make this very clear. You shouldn't show fear or hesitancy. You touch her on the first date however you can, then you kiss and make-out. You make out then you touch her where ever the eff you want. If she shows LMR, you back off a little and then keep trying. If she's totally not having it and says "You're not getting sex tonight," you respond, "Oh, just give me a week's time." Then you take your coat and you bid her good night and wait for her sure-as-hell text message to meet up again later.
b. You got options and you know it. Make her know it Stop texting so much, stop calling so much, and please stop worrying about what she thinks of you. That fear is not real is will only hold you back. Know that you can pick up other women (many of which hotter, smarter, and easier to lay) than her. She is option 1 but you have a fucking menu of options. Show her through your actions that you don't need her and you're really there just to entertain yourself.
c. Be in the power position You call the shots of where you guys eat dinner. You set the time for when you meet up. If she says something out of line, call her out on it. Debate. Argue. Let her know you won't take her shit. Make her earn your affection. She should be the one eventually asking you to be her boyfriend; you will never be more emotionally invested than her and if you are, then kiss your chick goodbye.
great points
As I've said to many a plate: Why would I pay for something you give away for free?
There are a lot of people who need to realize that.
well, fuck. that makes me cringe.
Painfully beta.
that was rough to view.
Damn...I mean, I know you shouldn't shove TRP down someone's throat but if this guy was a friend of mine, I would kick the living shit out of him for this kind of stuff.
He'd probably get a stiffy from you touching him
I have a chick thats one of my best friends.....my god, i would never do anything like this asshole for her.
That gives me the shivers. Eeesh....
Holy fucking fuck the only word to use is cringe fuck! God damn what a cunt and pushover fuck that shit.
Would love an update to this relationship.
She's sleeping around, he tells her every time she gets dumped that she should stop dating jerks. She says he's a nice guy and he'll find a girl to make him happy. She goes and blows someone else. He cries but think she'll give him a shot someday if he's nice enough.
Don't worry, when she hits 32, she'll come around. She might even stay faithful a full month after marriage.
Wait, do you know these people?
This guy needs help.
I don't have to know them to spell out what's happening here. This will go on for about 6-9 months and he'll one day lay it all out on the line for her (via text message) and she won't respond. After 7 minutes of no response he'll get nervous and either apologize or say that someone took his phone and sent his pussified attempt to woo her (most likely both). She'll shrug it off and roll over and keep sucking someone else's dick while her phone keeps buzzing from him calling her and leaving voicemails throughout the night.
Oh man, hilarious! I hate to say it, but I think I've been there. Thankfully not for long.
FUCK, you just described me.
Lol, that's just hilarious. I don't know what everyone's cringing about. But I have naturally immunity to that particular variety of bullshit, so it's easier for me.
One of the worst friendzone pics I've ever seen...and those have been a few.
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Yeah, look at the text below. He's just her friend.
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Always ignore a woman's words. Focus on her actions. She says you're awesome and she loves you to death. But no sex. She says previous guys were assholes she didn't love. But sex. She's not telling you what she wants in a man. She's showing you.
Also, you have to address her subconscious motivations. A woman is actually giving less to a guy, not because she loves him more, but because she thinks he lacks options and won't walk. She's giving the absolute minimum necessary to extract what she wants. If you walk, she'll probably just replace you with the next loser. What you need to do is raise that minimum bar. Have other female prospects, look awesome, be successful, and the subconscious drive to win you over will kick in. Suddenly, you're sexy and the minimum effort necessary to win you over goes up.
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You raise an interesting issue I've been pondering for some time.
When women are craving emotion/drama, when they are trying to push your buttons, and you just walk away whilst maintaining your power and composure letting them know you're happy to leave, and then later they come back to you with adoration - what was it they were hoping you would do originally? If you lose your shit and blow up what do they gain?
I would LOVE to know. I'm pondering on it right now since it is happening again to me at this very moment. Girl is obviously attracted to me, but keeps trying to piss me off with stupid bullshit, as if she is some kind of unique gem. Logic and arguments obviously don't work at all on her.
I had girls try this shit before and even though we were good friends (with benefits) when I walked away telling her to call me once she pulls herself together, only few ever did. It was probably for the better in the hindsight, but I never understood how a girl can drop everything, months of relationship, just like that.
Say nothing. Just soft next her.
Saying anything feeds her need for drama and portrays you as a bitch.
I had a scenario not quite like this one, but earlier on in the relationship she tried pulling the "well looks like I'm not giving you sex." I hadn't done anything wrong to deserve it, she just wanted to establish her vagina's authority over me. We were in a bar somewhere with friends. I responed loud enough for them to hear. "I at least still have two hands, a heart beat, and a high speed internet conection." Needless to say she was pissed. I made her authority irrelevant and established my own afterwards. That was the vital point, regardless of how words played out. We dated for over a year after than and she began to crave sex as often as I did. The point I'm making is if she steers the relationship in a way you don't like, you have to make it clear that you see it differently. If she can't meet your criteria then it won't work, plain and simple. Otherwise you'll waste time and effort for a type of relationship you didn't want. If you order a clubhouse sandwich at a restaurant and they say you can only have the tofu buger are you going to do it? Hell no! No transaction! You can't let them forget that you can walk away and for any reason you feel is suitable.
I think of it as men being the sellers, and women being the buyers. Women are undoubtedly in a buyer's market, but sellers can deny service to whomever they want.
You're trying to steal from me? Get the fuck out of my store.
This is critical to understanding the red pill. I see a lot of people here on TRP shitting all over women for being 'conniving' and 'cunning' and all that. That may be true in certain cases (e.g. women stabbing each other in the back) but in most cases they're not going out of their way to be like that; their biochemistry guides them into patterns which these people over-rationalize as 'Women are evil' because, just like bluepill betas, they ascribe rational and measured planning and thought to every single action a woman takes.
You can't approach this from a dude's mindset. Things that men do are influenced by their neurochemistry and controlled by their will. Things that women do are influenced by their will and controlled by their neurochemistry.
I want to see more comments like this on TRP. The teachings here have saved my sanity and I'm much much happier in my life, as a man, and with women as a result.
BUT, once you get this stuff you have to realise that women aren't like a marketing or advertising company. These companies have made a science out of systematically exploiting consumers psychologically to get the advantage over them. They know what they are doing every step of the way. The consumer is getting mindfucked, not the company.
Women, as you say, do not have a mission statement and gender policy to exploit men for maximum gains. They are being controlled by their neurochemistry. Their will gives them the illusion of volition. Their will is like the intern a company allows to choose "which shade of purple shall we use for the brand name logo?". The intern thinks they made a difference. They still got used for free, and the product is still the same. The woman is also getting mindfucked, not just the man.
I couldn't have put it better than this. Our ancestors, who didn't have to toe the Marxist-Leninist-Feminist line, realized the lack of real agency in female decision making, which established them as the protected class -- they needed a patriarchal system to rein in that lack of clear responsibility in their decision making. In the rare event there is an independent and self-directed woman in history she is unabashedly masculine in viewpoint and manner as though to imply that she is wired very differently from your usual female. She is frequently an apparent asexual or a rumored homosexual, further hammering home the point.
Women realize this on the subconscious level and prefer to abdicate decision making to other parties, either male individuals or genderless consensus. But today's women are totally convinced on the conscious level that they are completely in control of their behavior. Nothing could be further from the truth.
They feel affection rather than sexual attraction for nice guys. Similar to how you and I can feel affection for a pet bunny or dog.
Great post; calm, considered, and true.
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I think you did the right thing.
Bonnie was setting up Barry to be her provider/support beta guy while she fucked whatever lover alpha guy came along.
It would only get worse if they had married.
Edit, Bonnie is pissed at you for fucking up her potential meal ticket.
It's the hardest test of friendship. Doing the right thing for a friend and risking losing him in the process.
Doing the right thing shouldn't even be a test of friendship. Sounds like Barry was happy with his blue life but that shouldn't have OP second guessing (at any age) that doing the right thing was the right thing to do.
I don't think you're right here.
Your friend remains your friend. If he didn't want her bf to know, then he shouldn't have told her bf's friend. Apparently he didn't even care, so you're good on his front.
You have a guy the truth. It gives him a chance to learn, even if it takes a while for it to sink in.
You dished out some justice.
Honesty didn't hurt you practically, and it was the right thing to do.
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You saved a mans life that day. Feel good about yourself my friend. You did the right thing - what any real man should do it that situation.
If I found out a 'friend' of mine sat back and watched while one of his friends railed my girlfriend, heads would roll.
If you aren't helping your friend out by giving him the truth, then you aren't being a very good friend.
This is a good point. It's a tough thing to do, but that's tough love for your boy. Regardless of gender, when you get in a relationship, you're making a commitment. Too many people don't want to get involved in the drama and that's partly why cheating goes unfounded. They deserve to know.
On the other hand, I've handed out justice in the past and my buddy blamed me for ruining his relationship. It sucked to lose him, but I realized that he chose pussy over his boy and in effect, he wasn't the good friend there. Some guys are that blue.
Bros before Hoes. This is routinely discussed here. A good friend is way harder to find than a loose woman.
plain and simple. His friend got red pilled and didn't like it. OP shouldn't condemn himself or his actions for handing out the truth like candy.
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But there's nothing at stake for the person breaking the news.
Don't shoot the messenger, as they say.
Doesn't mean you won't lose a friend by telling him the truth, but you've still done the honorable thing.
Unfortunately, when your friends let you in on a secret you didn't ask to be let in on, and that involves other people in your life, you're already involved.
Barry is going to be mad at you for keeping it a secret from him if he finds out you knew and didn't tell him.
Edit: I shouldn't say you were "incorrect", per say. There are plenty of reasons to keep your mouth shut. I'm just saying it's up in the air.
How I handle this kind of dilemma is I look at who got theirs. In the above example I'd have told Barry as well since the other friend already got his, so IMO Barry should at least be told what's what so he isn't being lied to (by the woman). What he does with the info is up to him.
While I wouldn't do that either, I would point the guy the right way. Or tell him to fucking google it.
There is more to life then avoiding all possible downsides. Taking responsibility sometimes means sticking your neck out there.
Some gold right there.
If you refuse to give some of yourself for your brothers why have them at all? All relationships are a trade of time or resources or whatever you fancy, yes? Then what are your friends getting out of you, and what are you getting out of them: a few laughs; a person to talk to; someone who's willing to lay down their life? Whatever you choose to give them, you'll get something of equal value back, or thereabouts.
Imagine if you'd gotten closer to Barry, told him a little red pill knowledge, maybe shared your swallowing story with him, he could have taken even a little on board and worked on improving himself or looked at how he socialised with people. I guarantee you could have at least made him realise how much he gives to other people and how reluctant he is to take from them.
Fuck that. Ill do anything I can to fuck with her and when she attacks grab her arms and throw her on the ground. It stops the fight and leaves no bruises.
You sound so jaded that you didn't even elaborate on that, not even a short sentence. WTF happened to Barry since then that shows he didn't learn anything from his story with Bonnie the Ho?
I won't chastise you on your choice not to get involved at all, as truth-handling is a risky business that should really be at anyone's discretion... especially when the receiver of said truth is at least questionably interested in hearing it.
I like blaring the truth in everyone's face but I'm a clown. Also I'm older than you, chump:)
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sounds like guilt to me. He feels guilty for wrecking a relationship.. but what was he really wrecking? The fantasy beta-playground Bonnie made?
Rich is one Dark Triad motherfucker. He told you, knowing you're going to tell Barry. Barry confronts Bonnie and they eventually break up, making hooking up with Bonnie less complicated for Rich.
But Barry would have one-day realised and hurt just as bad, maybe even worse. You saved him time if nothing else.
I like that Rich guy.
Alpha as fuck
Agree and amplify type of response seems like it might be amusing. Like, "That makes sense. I've been hurt in the past too, and I really care about you, so let's take this slow: I won't reserve my time for you, buy you anything, or lie to make you feel better about yourself. We'll work up to that gradually so that things can work out naturally."
Or something like that. I got the idea but not the expression of it...
Absolutely, if a woman has been "hurt" in the past by giving up sex too quickly, a man can be "hurt" by giving up time and resources too quickly. It makes perfect sense ... although I'm sure this logic could be hamstered away.
agreed
Was dating a woman a few years ago and she tried the: "I am saving sex for when we are in love"
...which I replied with a big smirk "I'm saving love till the sex.. guess we are at an impasse"
We fucked that night. Turns out I didn't love her.
Perfect
But the question is, how to react to this?
That's a great question. I think the answer is to avoid selling out.
Initially, it doesn’t seem to make any sense at all. Why would a woman give less to somebody that she loves more? But when you think about the nature of most women, this really clicks.
Women treat lives like Facebook. In Facebook, you want to accumulate friends, likes, and approval from as many sources as possible, but you only have so much time to spend online.
If you apply this approach to real life, you have a situation where a woman gives as little as possible to the people she loves most, while going all out and giving everything she has for relative strangers. This makes no sense to a man. A man will do anything for his family and friends, but the rest of the world can go fuck itself as far as he’s concerned. Not so for women.
Once a woman has your approval and love, she doesn’t have to make as much of an effort any more. She’s not trying to win your approval any longer, just maintain it. She can take all of the time and attention you were consuming and apply that to attracting new approval from other sources, since she already has yours. She loves you more than a complete stranger, which is precisely why she’s giving you less. She’s busy trying to win that stranger’s approval. And if the stranger is less of a chump than you are and withholds his validation, she’ll fuck him to get it. You sold yourself short for a kiss.
All you've learned is pure RP gold, I swear everything I've seen you write is distilled into clear concise red pill info with much less of the RP terms and sardonicism. Should create your own blog.
I had to log in just to say that this post is brilliant.
Damn, that is gold. I guess the only question I have is how much validation do you give a woman before sex? I guess it is different with every girl, but you can't be to much of a ass or to much of a validater. Guess it is different with every woman. A fine line that one has to learn from experience I conclude.
Doesn't really answer the question...how would you react?
More teasing, more cocky and funny humor, more kino...keep pushing for sex. If she doesn't put out in three dates, NEXT.
Yep. That was my rule when I was dating. Nothing in three dates? Next.
We're not teenagers anymore. If you're not having sex by the third date, then you're wasting your time and she's using you.
Needs to be a top post of the year. Made a lot of things click.
Saving this for posterity:
That's a great question. I think the answer is to avoid selling out.
Initially, it doesn’t seem to make any sense at all. Why would a woman give less to somebody that she loves more? But when you think about the nature of most women, this really clicks.
Women treat lives like Facebook. In Facebook, you want to accumulate friends, likes, and approval from as many sources as possible, but you only have so much time to spend online.
If you apply this approach to real life, you have a situation where a woman gives as little as possible to the people she loves most, while going all out and giving everything she has for relative strangers. This makes no sense to a man. A man will do anything for his family and friends, but the rest of the world can go fuck itself as far as he’s concerned. Not so for women.
Once a woman has your approval and love, she doesn’t have to make as much of an effort any more. She’s not trying to win your approval any longer, just maintain it. She can take all of the time and attention you were consuming and apply that to attracting new approval from other sources, since she already has yours. She loves you more than a complete stranger, which is precisely why she’s giving you less. She’s busy trying to win that stranger’s approval. And if the stranger is less of a chump than you are and withholds his validation, she’ll fuck him to get it. You sold yourself short for a kiss.
By changing your behaviors so you never put yourself in that situation. Once she's said the whole "nice guy" routine it's almost too late. You'll be fighting an uphill battle at least.
If you do find yourself in that situation, just walk away. Do not keep being her beta time ho. You might not get the girl but you'll have learned a lesson and can walk away with your self respect.
Walk away and maybe change her mind by changing the stakes, or walk away and stop wasting your time. Either way, walk away.
In my experience walking away made her realize that I wasn't going to have it and within the month she sen't me a huge text in new years telling me how bad she felt that she wasn't giving me enough attention and treating me like crap and how she hoped we could make it work because she didn't want to lose me,etc.
Again this is only one specific case but damn I'd be lying if I said playing her little games worked. You need to stop and let her know (by walking away) that those games are insulting and demeaning and that things need to change.
Yeah then she tells all her friends you were just using her to get sex and you fuck up with an entire social circle of girls (I'm playing devil's advocate here for the sake of healthy discussion and anticirclejerk-ism).
Haha good. You think her friends are going to want to fuck you knowing you're her littke beta bitch? If anything her shit talk will help your chances. And even if it doesn't, oh well. Every girl is replaceable. That's what having an alpha abundance mentality means.
Damn true,
The last girl I fell into this trap with was mid last year, normally I don't mind waiting until the 2nd date however she had dragged it out until the 5th date with "I want this to work" and "Ive been hurt in the past" comments.
Like a gump I waited partially because we got along together pretty well, also because she was a successful doctor with a mega wealthy family and super-celebrity brother, ontop of us really clicking I was fine letting things not proceed past 2nd base for the 1st 3-4 dates.
Got fed up after date #5 and stopped contacting, went on with my life and dated others.
After 2 months I got back in touch met up and fucked her that night (no dinner, date or any of the previous BS) it was incredibly easy.
The kicker ? worst sex of my life.
"The kicker ? worst sex of my life." Did she starfish you?
No even worse she was just bad in general at everything.
From the age of like 17 to 20 (man, 20 years ago already!) I fell into that trap several times, and man did it suck.
This post is really well written, and lays the sticky situation out and the two sides very nicely. There's another undercurrent that I'd like to add.
A woman's insecurity... It may be that she's shooting you down not only because she can, but because you haven't tried hard enough, or took LMR too seriously.
It just might be that the other guys she let fuck and chuck her powered right through that LMR and it made her feel wanted, desired, and turned on.
If you're such a nice guy that she just says "No thanks, let's take it slow" and you're response is, "Okay baby, sure thing, I understand. This is special" you just fucked up royally.
Now, you have her thinking that you have no animal passion, or that she doesn't turn you on enough for you to give it a better shot than that.
Secondly, you just said it was "special". Fuck, now she's thinking she's got you by the balls, AND that she better not fuck it up.
A better scenario is this one:
Her: "No, we can't. I've been hurt in the past, I don't want to make the same mistakes"
You: "You're right, we shouldn't be doing this, this is moving so fast it's just so crazy but I just can't help myself. You drive me fucking WILD!" (keep doing what you're doing)
At that point if you get a hard NO, stop and freezeout.
When she breaks, go in for the kill.
If she doesn't, she was never going to anyway. Stop being her time ho.
Wins all around!
yep. thats exactly how you should use the hamster to your advantage. do not allow her to put you in the provider category, or she will continue to deny you sex.
My primary advice when it comes to women: You're either fucking or you're not.
If you're not fucking, then you're not fucking.
The only question becomes, how long should I wait to fuck?
My answer is, and I know you guys probably aren't going to like this, the same day you meet. If you didn't fuck the night you met consider her a "friend", an acquaintance, whatever. It's possible you might fuck someday in the future, but this whole dating nonsense is complete bullshit.
So how many dates should you go on before you next her? I'd say one. Seems harsh, but truth be told, I have never had sex with a woman who I went out with more than once. Ever. And I'm almost 40. Usually I'm fucking her before any date. Maybe she was an acquaintance and we got to talking at a party or bar or whatever.
Dating just doesn't work. By taking her on a "date", you're already putting yourself into a horrible (beta) position which you will probably never be able to get out of.
Also, think about it. If she spends an entire night with you and you didn't fuck, how much do you think she wants to fuck you? She probably doesn't.
Yup. Animal attraction isn't a matter for debate or negotiation. Once you're into each other I agree that you should be tearing each others clothes off as soon as the opportunity presents itself. If that's not occurring, then you're wasting your time, probably because she's damaged goods in some way, or she uses sex as a weapon or bargaining chip.
29 here and probably less successful, but it holds true that most of the women I had sex with were DTF on day one. I think it might be over 2/3 of them on day one, about.
The siren song that lures sailors into the sea, is "you are the one, only you can save me."
Powerful words.
This was actually a really well written post that makes a lot of sense to a person that still hasn't swallowed either pill. Well done
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Happened to me as well. Made me feel hopeless and extremely lonely for such a long time.
Excellent post.
Imagine a worker who has worked at some real crap companies and was abused and treated badly. Then he goes to work for a great company that treats him well. His coworkers aren't satisfied though, and convince him to go on strike. So he goes on strike, holding out for more, because he's been hurt in the past.
The company then brings in the strikebreakers.
I'm not necessarily criticizing organized labor, just using it to make an analogy. There are plenty of strikebreakers out there. In fact, there are whole countries full of strikebreakers. With their help, you can break that one-itis monopoly.
This is also a common line for cult leaders and con artists. It immedidiately reframes it to a situation where YOU (not them) are being evaluated for trustworthiness. Suddenly, you have to prove yourself to them, instead of the cult leader proving his belief system to you.
In my experience, the women are definitely worried that you'll walk away, but that doesn't change anything. Walking away still won't get you sex. They'll call your bluff.
It's a relationship that can't work, but neither the guy or girl can see that. It's sad really, both can waste years and years of their lives on this type of thing.
That's the problem right there. You think leaving a woman is a bluff. You think this is a game of poker and you're trying to get women to fold and if they don't fold, you lose your pot. No it's not a bluff. You're literally prepared to leave and break contact with them at any point in the relationship. And that's the way it should be, you owe it yourself to seek out the best opportunities and positions that make you happy. Being with a woman who is telling you bullshit and not giving you sex is not a position you want to be in. You have the option to leave.
And what happens to the girl at this point? The hamster loses its mind and she goes through this fear of loss complex and the whole dynamics of the relationship shifts and suddenly she is begging you not to leave. But honestly, you didn't do it for her. Ultimately everything discussed here in TRP works because you're doing this for YOU.
I like the poker analogy. It really does work well. You're right that the equivalent mistake would be 'fake bluffing' with a lost hand, what you might call the 'one-itis' of hands. And it's quite as common at the poker table as it is in relationships. Very exploitable for the other person.
Basically "always be willing to fold". It's EV 0. If you can't beat EV 0 with your other options, then fold the damn hand; there's always the next hand (most formal poker analysis assumes infinite length table games for simplicity; interestingly enough, there are some very long lived poker games which would approximately match these characteristics.
Generally, playing just one hand, it's all a matter of luck. Playing enough hands, the central limit theorem and game theory would suggest that skill and bias built into the game begins to outweigh the effects of chance.
tl;dr: If there's no value, fold.
Wow, first time on reddit I've ever heard another person drop the central limit theorem. If you are reading this and don't know what it is educate yourself. If you are one of the few people who read this and actually educate yourself and think, "That's not such a big deal," educate yourself again.
So true, man. One girl I was in an LTR with begged on her knees for me not to leave her on our last night together...then dumped me by text 2 hours later, which she must have been planning for weeks. Even if they are about to leave you, they will do almost anything to 'keep you' on their terms.
That's just fine. Use your time on other plates or improving yourself. You have to be able to walk away or you ARE the chump
I agree I think women genuinely are nervous about sleeping with a high quality guy. A random bartender has nothing to offer her long term, a yale educated climate researcher looks good as a husband so she'll try to withhold sex to gain his investment.
I couldn't agree more.
Straight truth. Clear and concise. Sidebar material.
I would have to say sidebar material. This is something that every new guy must read and understand. It hits hard theoretically and practically.
Nice job, Archwinger. Keep it up.
In other words even if they don't really rate a guy women aren't going to turn away free affection, attention and validation. Perceived flattery will keep that attention coming. "I've been hurt before" is such an elegant yet deceitful way of damning a man with faint praise yet giving him that sense he's something special.
You can avoid this entire conversation simply by being aggressive and escalating quickly. That's what the assholes did, and it's not rocket science. It just takes a healthy amount of hedonism and not giving a fuck.
It's really that easy, folks. Being sexually aggressive shows you have options or that you don't care about rejection. It's always worked wonders for me, even without any other routine or technique.
Meta comment:
This post should be sidebarred.
/u/Archwinger has a great writing style of taking benign/common things about women that people take for granted and breaking them down. Great way to ease new people into TRP.
This should be the preface of the Red Pill Bible.
How long exactly are we talking about here? A few weeks, or a few months? I'd imagine if they are saying "I love you", a noticeable period of time has passed. That is just weird.
A lot of times in the beginning of a prospective LTR, a girl will be slow to have sex. This is an old fashioned tactic, often suggested by parents to their daughters, although its probably less and less common. Its is definitely viewed as a test, and the theory behind it is that if a guy is interested in just sex then he will leave if he has to wait. This type of tactic becomes less common the older the girl gets.
Personally, I don't have too much of a problem with the aforementioned tactic. I think that it does actually work to some degree and its not really deceptive.
However, if you are going on more than a few weeks (and you are at least in your 20's) and things haven't progressed... then clearly there is something seriously wrong there. You've passed the limit of social norms. Either she likes you, or she doesn't.
There can be a lot of reasons for this, but none of them are good. She could be using you. She could have mixed feelings or weak attraction.
She could be telling the truth and legitimately have mental hang ups and deep seeded problems, but this is really not very good either. Some of the worst relationships I've seen involved people who've been in emotionally scarring relationships in the past. It is nearly impossible to have a normal relationship if this is true.
TLDR - there can be a different approach depending on whether she wants a LTR or just sex, but its typically for younger women and shouldn't be for excessive periods of time.
This line works only if the girl hasn't put out for anybody in the past, but then that means she has some self respect, a thing of rarity these days.
I wish I found this place 10 years ago...
At any point during the breakup (which I think should be inevitable), would it be ok to try and justify leaving over this? I know that you shouldn't really give a shit what she thinks, but solely for the reason of not wanting her to turn other girls away from you, could you try and dampen the impact? What I mean is, when you say that it's over, and she says something along the lines of "Oh, so you're leaving me so I won't have sex with you? What a jerk." would it ever be suitable to say "It's not that we haven't had sex. It's that you don't WANT to have sex. You're holding sex over my head like some sort of reward for jumping through your hoops, when you clearly give it away to other guys for free. You clearly aren't attracted to me, and don't respect me, so I don't see this going any further." My instinct tells me that she won't give a shit though, and this kind of explanation will just bounce off her head.
The 100% least successful route with any woman is to try to rationalize and logic your way into sex. If you have to explain yourself with 50 words like that, all that a woman is going to hear is:
"I'm a whiny loser. I'm so insecure about my position that I have to prattle on and on trying to convince you of my viewpoint. You're more valuable than I am and it's critically important to me that you understand my point of view because I care so much what you think."
It doesn't matter if the words you say are correct or incorrect. The only thing the woman will perceive is that you had to explain yourself, which means your position was weak and you're a supplicant who cares what she thinks and desires her approval.
"You're leaving me because I won't have sex with you?"
"I'm leaving you, period."
I was more thinking in that case that I would be leaving anyway, so in my mind we're already broken up and I was letting her know why I'm gone. I see your overall point though, explaining is never worth it.
Still, for my analogous situation I could totally see the girl running her mouth about "All he wants is sex, stay away from him" to other girls. That's the effect I want to minimize, if possible.
That's just free advertisement. If I were you, I'd want every girl in your town knowing that you're looking for sex. That saves a lot of explanation.
"Hi."
"My friend Stacy warned me about you. You're just interested in sex."
"And classic cars, making homemade sausage, reading non-fiction, and lifting weights. I have lots of hobbies. But I agree. People who aren't interested in sex are weird."
Let her run her mouth. It doesn't matter and she's going to, anyway. You can't stop it, so accept it.
A lot of women want sex. If you've got your shit together, "he only wants sex" will drive sex-positive women into your arms. Sex-negative women - the kind who will treat you like a chump and never give it up - will listen to her and stay away. That's good. You don't want those bitches, anyway.
"I don't care what they say about me as long as they spell my name right" - Paraphrasing PT Barnum
"Being stingy with affection is the opposite of love."
Yes this is the best I have heard this put. I've tried explaining to women the sentiment your post portrays but have come up short. I now have new verbal ammo for when I come across someone with this mind set.
Also I really do plan to use your quote.... A lot. Hope you don't mind.
This piece is absolute gold. Redpill lesson #01.
That post was straight truth. Props.
She wants emotional connection (love) with alpha.
She notices that after sex, alphas lose interest in her and she doesn't know why.
She's not saying to herself - "I'm gonna hook this beta loser I'm not attracted to up, I'm gonna make him fall in love with me and I'm gonna deny the shit out of him just to hurt him as much as possible.", no.She says "I'm gonna make an experiment - I will do everything as usual, except I wont have sex. Wonder how it goes.". Then she tries to make it happen. But what happens is it makes an alpha filter, where only beta unattractive guys make it through.
She doesn't even understand that there are alpha or beta guys, just on intuitive level feels it. She wants to hook alpha up for her "experiment", but she just lacks the knowledge required to figure this out and why it doesn't work.
So after her experiment proves to her, if she's smart enough to realize it at all, that it failed, she either cuts the guy who made it through her filter out or only then decides to keep him as a friend. The beta then will call her names, "bitch", etc., and creates posts like the OP blaming her for being evil. While all she wanted was to make emotional connection with alpha, but it just didn't work.
It's either neither girl, nor guy fault, or both fault, since it happens because they both don't know better.
That's why TRP teaches to avoid such traps - if the girl puts too much effort to deny sex, get out.
So much terrible memories. When a girl Said this exact thing to me I was like "well I'm not that type of guy. I'm nice and il treat you like the beta chump I am". Wow. Thanks trp. Literally dont know how I would have gotten out of my bubble.
The cunt a women's best weapon.
Dont forget TEARS. They use those as a sidearm constantly.
Gold. Upvote awarded.
Good post. Women seriously need a good collective shaking.
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I've said this before: sucking up to women, by betas, is ultimately caused by women.
Betas suck up because they have few options.
They have few options because alphas are willing to sleep with tons of women.
Alphas get to sleep with so many women because women are selective, and prefer men whom other women have "approved".
For high value males to exist, low value ones must as well.
Of course, that's not to say that low value males couldn't collectively shun women; which I suspect is starting to happen/has happened.
So do all the beta babies.
Why do you care if she allegedly loved you more than any man they’d ever had previously if she doesn't do what you want? 1) it's either a test or she's fucked in the head 2) proceed accordingly: agree and amplify or next.
Not to brag, but all the "rules" and "3 dates" stuff aside, not putting out is never even an issue - how the fuck would it happen in a real adult world? Why would you keep dating her?
The Fallacy of Sunk Costs.
You get a few weeks of "just one more date" and just enough affection to string you along, and then he works to break himself.
This is awesome
I think women genuinely are nervous about sleeping with a high quality guy. A random bartender has nothing to offer her long term, a yale educated climate researcher looks good as a husband so she'll try to withhold sex to gain his investment.
Sometimes when a girl pulls this she's just trying to scratch off her lottery number to see if she's won. Guys will fuck more girls than commit to so fucking tells them nothing.
I have found based on my own experiences and that of my friends, that the loner she keeps from giving the dog the bone the more emotionally attached the male becomes.
Bingo. It's an intellectual assessment, and not an emotional one. Even if her intellectual assessment leads her to an actual relationship (which includes sex), she'll move on quickly because she is an emotional creature by nature. Well done articulating that dynamic.
If a woman mentions that's she's been with assholes in the past it means that you have to step up your asshole act if you wanna to get her in the sack.
Decoding woman language: "hurt" or "heartbroken" means "fucked but not loved". Up to 14 years old or so "heartbroken" can mean just a date and a kiss with a very handsome guy who then leaves them. But it is ridiculous to believe that at 20 years old it is so.
Again this is one thing where movies spread false views. Movies say a 20 years old adult woman can fall in love in a few nonsexual dates and then feel totally hurt when the guy says let's just be friends. In reality it basically never happens - any guy worth falling in love with usually escalates hard, plants a flag and maybe hands out the friendzone card afterwards. At that point comes the hurt, the heartbreak "I did put out, gave it up, so why I am not rewarded with love and commitment?"
This is what it really means.
Generally fuck everything about learning relationships stuff from movies.
This is some Grade A, Top Choice truth right here. I fell for this shit the greater part of my adult life.
One time I was trying to fuck this plate for like a week straight and one time we were just chilling, watching a movie and she rolls over and says. "I like you more than most men." I smirked and said nothing, maintaining my frame. She then got a big grin and said "LEts go to the MALL tomorrow!" I just laughed and walked out the door. Never talked to her again. Got a few phone calls from her, quickly changed my number. If she's not gonna let me in her pussy I'm not letting her in my wallet. Pretty hilarious, I punched a high school kid in the knee.
Wait you sure she was trying to get you to spend money on her. Maybe she was just trying to set another date?
Was not the first time she tried to get me to open my wallet. One time we were hanging out at a grocery store and there were a bunch of kittens for sale outside. She kept commenting on how cheap and cute they were. Haha fuck that. I ain't no ho-ho. Just to shut her up I walked up to the booth where they were selling kittens and looked the lady selling them in the eye and said "I'm not going to buy a kitten I'm just trying to shut up this chick I'm with." I then walked back and told her they all looked sick.
Personally I've combatted this well by still escalating and touching and other things. But if there. Is no Sex I'm fine with that it becomes a game where we see who can turn on the other most. Doesn't last but two dates normally
Is this a very common issue because this has been every relationship I've had so far. Getting a bit old being called the good/nice guy just to be abandoned for the "just in it for sex" guys.
nailed it
Have said these exact words before. So you are going to judge my relationship with you on something that happened in the past. Which I have absolutely nothing to do with. But I get punished. Every single time they realize what kind of a situation they have put me in. Destroys that barrier right away.
Brilliant. Should go under greatest hits
Caveat: You're already in a relationship and would like to have her as a back up. This is especially if the relationship is rocky and you want a back-up once it's finished.
My god I wish I'd read this when I was young.
Copypasta for posterity:
I used to meet a lot of women who allegedly loved me more than any man they’d ever had previously, but went to great lengths to never, ever have sex with me. They weren’t virgins; many had quite the history with men. But I still never got anywhere. Their reasoning was grounded in woman-logic: "I've been hurt by a lot of assholes in the past, and I really care about you, so I want to do this right" or some variation of that.
If you’re a loser, upon hearing that, you’ll think to yourself, “Oh, joy! I’m totally not an asshole, and she notices that and is rewarding me with a real [non-sexual] relationship instead of a shallow one that’s going to fail! I’m so lucky! I’ll wait forever for such a wonderful person! I should find something nice to do for her right now to let her know how grateful I am!”
Here's how that woman-logic sounds to a real guy: "Other men worse than you have gotten farther with me, in less time, with less of an emotional and financial investment. But because I care more about you, I am making you jump through hoops and making you spend a greater amount of time and resources to get less far with me. Because I care more about you. What? Why are you looking at me like that? This makes perfect sense. Yes, giving less to people I care about more makes sense."
Here's what the girl really means: "I've pegged you for a chump. I don't think you have options with other women, and I don't think you're willing to walk away, so I'm going to frame this relationship on my terms. We fuck when I want to, and that's going to be after I've made you jump through a bunch of hoops to prove you're my little compliant bitch who's going to give me all the time, resources, and validation I want, at will. If you were a real man, you’d have fucked me already, but I’ve cast you for the role of bitch. I don’t care about you. I care about me. I don’t even like you. Sex is reserved for real men. You’re not a real man. You’re my bitch.”
Here’s the kicker: Most women don’t know that they really mean this. They just know that the validation feels good, and that a guy who keeps validating them without sex makes them feel powerful, happy, and better about themselves. When any woman hears the line of girl logic, “I’ve been hurt in the past,” it makes perfect sense to them – she’s screwed up by giving it up too easily before and wants to stop screwing up. By stop screwing up, they mean that she needs to do a better job of withholding sex to bait men into doing shit for her to earn it. They don’t know they mean that, but that’s what they mean.
Only in the eyes of a woman does it make sense to give less to a man that you love more. But that’s the rationalization kicking in. If a woman is giving you less, and making you do more for it, that’s the exact opposite of loving you more. Being stingy with affection is the opposite of love. Requiring an exchange of favors rather than just giving of yourself is the opposite of love.
It’s a difficult truth to admit and to accept, not just for us, but for women, too. I think on some level, they want to love that nice guy who’s going out of his way for them, but they just don’t. They can’t. But they tell themselves that they do, and that they’re just taking it slow to avoid getting hurt like they have in the past. Because they love him more. And if things don’t work out, he’s still a great guy – the chemistry just wasn’t there. And if they slip up and screw some hot guy from work, it was a mistake. They don’t love that guy. They love the nice guy, don’t they? They were just drunk.
“I’ve been hurt in the past and want this to be different,” is nothing more than an insidious shit test. By complementing you, telling you that you’re different from every other guy, that you’re not an asshole or a douche, and that she loves you more than every previous man, you’re off-guard when in combination with all of that praise, she denies you sex. Because she loves you more.
Muthafuckin' Yoda
I would like an expert to break this down. You've made a lot of really really big assumptions in this post. It kind of reads like a complaint/rant.
I've been through this EXACT shit with a woman. Thanks.
What if you're seeing a girl, she's giving you great sex, she even offers to pay for herself when you get food and even buy little things for you here and there. She's submissive to you, and you want to pursue a LTR with her, but she is hesitant to jump on board? She's also claims she was, "hurt in the past" and wants to take things slow, but she is still open to giving you sex and casually dating. What are your thoughts on that situation?
If a woman wants to downgrade herself to plate status for you, that's a good thing.
It's also a shit test to see if you'll get all clingy and pushy about monogamy and commitment. By pursuing a LTR, you're admitting to limited options and making yourself awfully unattractive to her, revealing that you're actually a needy loser.
"Wanna LTR with me?"
"No. Let's go slow. I've been hurt in the past."
"Oh shit! I was just kidding around. Didn't mean to lead you on. Lulu will go batshit on me if I have to stop fucking her silly. She's been trying to lock me down for months."
I'm glad, because I handled it exactly how you described. Slight dread and played it cool.
how does the whole "only reason she's with me is for my validation and the fact that im her bitch" work if your gf is giving you sex whenever you want and your the best shes had in the sack?
Repeating the basics.
Repetition, friend, repetition. If you want new ideas to stick with you so that they are learned, repetition is necessary.
Agreed
There's a simple solution to this: stop dating women who use sex as a weapon. Seriously, don't let yourself become a victim.
Beautiful post. If I may critique, the last paragraph seems to be a bit of a run on - other than that, one of the best I've read.
I am sure there are girls like that, definitely. I've met them.
To give you an alternate perspective - as a women, I like to hold out for a little while because once you sexually bond with a person, it becomes a lot analyze the relationship critically. A LOT of women are in really abusive and horrible relationships but because they rushed into sex, they have a clouded perspective and keep fooling themselves by convincing themselves to stay in the relationship. Thats just my perspective. I know a lot of my friends who are stuck in relationships and then when they finally break free, they ask themselves "why the fuck did it take me SO long to get out of that mess!". So then next time around, they want to go and do things differently.
Don't lump all women together like that. There are a lot of amazing women who want to wait because it actually does help the relationship. They are not trying to sabotage you or put you down. You are not a bitch for being with women who want to wait either....
Maybe you have had a few bad experiences and I am sorry but there are a lot of mature women out in the world so I hope you find one :D
No one is 'stuck' in a bad relationship unless they are in a sub-basement putting the lotion in the basket. Anyone can walk; they're just fucking cowards.
You seem like a really nice person.
Thanks for the input, but I'm going to blow this little rationalization out the window...the assholes they keep banging are always the most BLATANTLY violent, abusive, manipulative guys, the friendzoners are almost always the least violent and safest.
You WANT it to be the other way, so you would be absolved from feeling the way the way you do, but that's just the hamster talkin.
Hey, I totally appreciate your response. In these kind of debates though, please do not tell me what I "want". You don't know that. I was merely offering my perspective. You can create your own reality and tell me I am in in some heavy delusion but thats not really constructive. Are you trying to be constructive and create a better life for yourself or are you trying to put me down? I don't really want it to be the other way... thats just my experience and my experience is just as valid as yours... that is all. thanks.
Read the Sidebar kid. One of major purposes of this forum is to get past the pretty lies we tell ourselves every day, and get down to real motivations. Everyone here is well aware of what women "Say" they want. The purpose of this forum is to contrast what people "Say" vs. what they (in overwhelming numbers) "Do".
If a thousand Doctors all filled out a questionaire saying that they were NOT affected by certain Pharma Rep tactic, but there were billions of dollars of sales records DEMONSTRATING incontrovertibly that these things did indeed have a huge impact in how things were done, would you use the proven techniques, or go by how these guys TOLD you they were doing things?
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Wrong. If a woman can't have a LTR, but still puts out for the next pretty face, then she's a whore who will sleep with anyone. If a woman doesn't have sex with you, then she doesn't find you attractive.
Or, if you're really stuck between being called a prude and a whore, you can always just compromise on a blowjob, miss 17 year old highschool graduate.
I don't mind taking the latter, thanks. BTW, it's a slut who will sleep with anyone. A whore is a professional who sleeps with people for financial compensation.
How is it that people get this mixed up?
Awful, awful post.
People make mistakes, and most people try to correct those mistakes. Isn't that the whole point of TRP? Self-improvement? When a woman confesses that she's possessed poor judgment in the past, she's probably not lying and probably isn't harboring selfish ulterior motives. Her holding back sex is probably not a sign of taking you for a ride, or thinking less of you, or planning some long con where she marries you, invests ten years of her life into your relationship, and then divorces you for your money. Needless cynicism.
This post sets out an impossibly high standard for long-term relationship material. Most girls have tried a short-term hook up at least a couple of times in their life; if she's ready to settle down and do things the traditional way, that means, by definition, you aren't getting laid with the same ease as those men who were around during periods of poor judgment. And that's a good thing! It demonstrates that she's ready to stop taking sex lightly and focus on more important things, and it demonstrates that she's grown more secure, no longer needing sex for validation.
We don't need to pretend that gold diggers and desperadoes don't exist, but we also don't need to go virgin-or-bust for LTR prospects. Women, like men, make rash decisions when they're young. And women, like men, can engage in self-improvement.
Make no mistake: there are fair concerns about a woman's history. Most here are aware of how a higher premarital sexual partner count correlates to infidelity, divorce, and lower reported marriage satisfaction down the road. A woman who has been unable to hold a steady relationship will bring up red flags, as will an older woman whose options are increasingly limited (I think you guys call it "the wall"). But none of this has anything to do with the adoption of a healthier view on sex, and a person refusing to embrace crass hedonism or feed off physical validation is a definite plus.
Except that's not how the real world works.
I had sex with my wife the first night I met her. I hit it until the sun came up that morning. It's not like she was some bar slut either - she's a very pragmatic CPA. She dumped the beta chump she was seeing the next day. I asked her about it - "You were seeing some guy?" She said "Don't worry about him he's a Pencil Dick". I never so much as saw a text message or missed call. He was gone the moment I stepped into the picture.
Before my brother married his wife, she was on a date with another dude and he called her and told her to ditch the guy so he could come hit it. She had him drop her off at home and as he was leaving my brother pulled up. Whatever my brother wanted - she did. When he decided they were exclusive, they were exclusive. My sister in law is a very attractive woman, she had plenty of beta orbiters before my brother and her got serious. When he was ready to be exclusive, she dropped everything and did what he said.
When you establish and hold frame - they like it. When you turn them on - they listen. There are no games. They fall in line willingly. They don't give you a story about not wanting to give it out too soon - they drop to their knees and suck and fuck you with gusto.
If they are loyal, smart, play their cards right and are worthy of it - then you have the option of recognizing their worth, stepping up and putting a ring on it. If you do it right, it happens on your terms.
If some woman is withholding sex from you from the get-go, she's totally manipulating you into being her beta chump. You're not Mr. Right... You're just Mr. Right Now. If she's hot for you, then she'll fuck you - if not she won't.
I'm not going to call into question your experience, but anecdotal evidence isn't enough.
Yes. And you can be a confident leader in the relationship without demanding sex. In fact, if a woman is willing to bed a man just for "establishing and holding frame," that would be a red flag. Who's to say she doesn't meet someone like this later in life?
Or she's learned from her mistakes and no longer treats physical intimacy as a need (insecurity) or a no-risk bit of fun (hedonism). A woman's willingness to sleep with you is not indicative of her quality as long-term relationship material: if you're a desirable guy and she says she wants to wait, this is not a bad thing and not a sign that you're being played.
Instead, look to her past. Has she proven she can cope with the compromise of a LTR? Has she been promiscuous? Has she been divorced? Have her parents been divorced? etc. These are the sorts of questions that have real predictive power.
Except that's what all women do. They are hypergamous. If you lose frame and become beta they will explore their options. Even ones that are in successful marriages with loyal dogs you would otherwise think are alpha and by all rights have those alpha qualities we talk about here, if those women run into a even higher status men who throw game at them - they can and do stray.
Don't get caught up in the NAWALT trap my friend. Don't think just because you put a ring on it, invested all this time and money into a marriage, you're exempt because you married a unicorn. You can't count on that. Don't project your honorable qualities onto them and expect a positive outcome. When push comes to shove, women think of themselves first.
If she's got some kind of profound baggage holding her back from intimacy with you - then run for cover. How do you know it's real and not some bullshit story?
If a girl says she isn't like that - and never has been like that - even though it sounds completely plausible - it's bullshit. If they are grown ups and they like you - they fuck you. Full stop.
If they are trying to rehabilitate a bad sexual history, they'll stop giving it out to just any guy, but they still fuck guys they really like.
I've never waited more than a week in any relationship I've ever had.
I'll buy the whole I don't fuck guys in the first 24 hours I know them line only for a very short time - but that starts the clock - I'm on guard from that moment.
This is a big lesson for you to learn. When you're doing it right - the women you like put out to you. It's not just that they are horny and want to fuck you - they know if you're not getting pussy from them, you'll lose interest and get it elsewhere and they don't want that.
If you're putting emotional and especially financial investments into a relationship and aren't getting any ass - there could be no bigger red flag than that.
The proof is in the pudding - and if you're not getting the pudding - that's proof that some bullshit games are going on.
In other words: there are zero women in the world who have any modicum of loyalty, and if they so much as catch a whiff of a higher value male, they'll toss their family and all the time they've invested in a relationship just to go fuck some "alpha."
Encouraging guys to commit to self-improvement even while in a relationship is good advice. This is not. It's a comically cynical account of women with absolutely no grounding in reality.
Plenty of girls remain virgins up until marriage, especially religious girls and girls from more traditional cultures.
Then you've been dealing with low-quality LTR prospects.
Adorable.
Don't get caught up in the AWALT trap my friend.
Happens all the time.
How many marriages have you been in? Ever been divorced? How many of your friends are divorced and/or pay child support?
70% of my 35+ year old friends are in that situation - writing a check out every month. So the odds are in not in your favor bro.
In America, basically no attractive women over 20 years old is a virgin. I don't know what neckbearded fantasy land you're living in.
My and my brother's wives are attractive, educated, intelligent women. They are great moms and keep a clean house. It's just that my brother and I have mad game and were able to bed our high quality LTR wives fast and often.
You're a condescending dumb ass troll. Do you know where you are? Have you read the side bar? Have you read the posting and comment histories? Have you read the testimonials given by contributors?
YES AWALT. They all will better deal you in the right circumstance. You think having children, cars, homes and mortgages together means anything to women? They fear nothing. They care only about themselves. If it behooves them to toss you out on your ear - they'll do it. They know the courts will grant them the golden marriage parachute if they so desire it. They have no real incentive to keep a marriage together other than feels - which can change with the wind. If they think they can do better, they'll exchange you for a monthly check and fuck the next guy who comes along and tell the children to call him daddy.
THIS IS REAL LIFE. THIS SHIT REALLY HAPPENS. THESE ARE COMMON EVERYDAY OCCURRENCES.
If you don't approach your LTRs in a very specific way you're going to get shitfucked. It's as simple as that. Do you have any clue what you risk and what your chances of success are? Obviously not. You can't afford to lay out blind trust - or sit back on your laurels thinking it will all be OK because you are some great unicorn hunter.
Pride always comes before the fall. There's a difference between ego and knowledge. You need to check yourself before you wreck yourself.
Needless to say, "all the time" is not "always."
None. Unlike you, I rely on impartial justification (in this case, statistics) rather than personal anecdote. It's a less prejudiced guide through life.
Stop.
Incorrect.
Stop.
And they were also willing to throw away their principles and sleep with you for highly superficial reasons. You're free to judge your partner however you'd like, but to me, that would send out huge red flags. Doubt the relationship would last more than a month.
I have a BA in philosophy, so "dumb" is probably not the right term to use. "Troll" is also inaccurate, as I've been banned from other subreddits for defending elements of TRP. "Condescending" is fine.
Four billion people are not "all like that." If your common sense can't tell you that, then simply look at the literature. When women lose their virginity differs. When women get married differs. How women view family and traditional gender roles differs. People are different. There is no Monolith of Woman.
Most women are solipsistic, yes -- this is an extension of the equally true claim that most people are solipsistic. But not all. Those exceptions are the ones you ought to target.
Depends on where you live. Come to Texas, we've got a fair alimony system here.
Correct. Your approach, however, is needlessly cynical, intellectually lazy, and factually inaccurate.
Seriously. Stop.
You can't unring the bell.
Or it's because women are humans and not manipulative objects with degrading agendas. Maybe she is having an honest and natural non-trusting reaction (which you can grasp with the use of the word "hurt") and the best bet is to be non-threatening but passionate, essentially making her crave sexuality. Don't kill it with kindness, kill it with sexy. The assumption that all women use sex as a weapon is fucking retarded.
Doesn't compute.
"I love you more than the other people I had rabbit-like sex with in the past, quickly, and without requiring much from the other men. Therefore, I will not have sex with you."
There's just no rationalization for that. The only possible excuses are the woman not being attracted to the man, the woman executing a power play, or the woman having actual bonafide psychological issues stemming from her past. All three of those make her less desirable.
Women have this silly compartmentalization thing where it makes some kind of sense in their minds for their past men to be "just sex" men, so having slut-like sex with zero commitment was just fine then, but now that she's in it for reals with a real man, he's got to jump through hoops to prove himself, because this real man goes in the other compartment. Having rabbit-like sex with your boyfriend or husband without him earning it first sacrifices power in the relationship. When you're after a relationship instead of just sex, you keep tighter reigns on the sex to maintain power.
Life isn't a huge game to most people.
One counter example: Society tells women that having multiple partners lowers your value, so after a certain point their imaginary number outweighs their desire for sex until they prove to be a viable partner. By only wanting sex and not an LTR you are essentially proving her right. You haven't made yourself worth the risk yet. Sure some women will fit into the scenario OP posted, but most won't so it's worth is questionable.
I can think of plenty of human reasons someone might not want to bone. There is no formula.
I for one have all the rabbit-like sex I want without being concerned with power exchange (a topic I am well educated in). Ironically, when you play these silly meta-games, you've already lost.
I know I'll get downvoted to hell but I don't give a rats ass. The premise is retarded and sometimes people need to be reminded of that.
Nowhere does the original post say that a man is necessarily not interested in an actual relationship and only interested in sex. But yes, a man is interested in sex, either independent from or in addition to other relationship things.
When a woman has had lots of sex with guys she doesn't care that much about, but then won't have sex with a guy she actually cares about, that only makes sense to women. That just doesn't compute in a male brain.
Because she actually likes this one (or says she does), this one needs to prove himself. But all the ones she was just fucking for fun didn't. They were "worth the risk" because she didn't want to secure a relationship with them. She just wanted sex then. But when a woman finds herself in a situation where she wants a relationship, she suddenly needs to play smarter and not give sex away too early or readily. Literally, because she actually likes the guy and wants more, she gives him less and makes him work for it. Because the guy is actually relationship material in her book, she withholds the sex because it's not "worth the risk" of screwing it up by giving it away too early.
Doesn't compute to guys. That's like a guy refusing to commit to a girl that's relationship material, because she's relationship material.
She does not even need to like the guy. She just has to want something from him: money, commitment, marriage.
Women know two things:
This makes their situation tricky. On the one hand they want to have sex (with whomever). Sex is just an urge.
On the other hand, she needs to withhold sex from the guy, whose stuff she wants in order to negotiate the price of sex as high as possible. Giving sex as a gift and expecting a lot of resources as reciprocation is a weak strategy. She is driving a hard bargain, basic negotiation tactics. The price is being settled at the beginning of the relationship and it won't go down with time.
This is why a woman can withhold sex from a 8/10 guy while negotiating his commitment and proving him that "she is not easy" while at the same time banging some 5/10 guy on the side for free. All that withholding of sex from the perfect marriage material guy (buying temperature) makes her go crazy and she needs to get off. If the future husband is some beta provider chump, it makes it so much easier to cheat on him. The other guy needs not even to be an alpha, just a dude with a functioning penis who is known to be down to fuck.
The price of pussy is both zero and thousands of dollars at the same time. One guy has to work for it, the other gets it for free.
A man playing the dread card often forces them to finally fix the price and commit. And sometimes this makes them happy, because they finally can have the sex, that they wanted anyway.
It really is as simple as - if a girl really likes you, she'll fuck you.
The smart girls filter out the dudes they know are total scoundrels and or losers.
They wait for dudes that meet both criteria - Ones that turn them on - and ones that have something going for them.
Unfortunately, not all women have the ability to be so picky (the really hot ones do) - so they kill time with dudes who are good enough to kill time with. Sometimes they get stupid and go through too many of those killing time boyfriends they evolve into having way too many meaningless dicks in their lives. The smarter not-so-pretty ones will keep a single beta chump around - one they can control - while they have their radar on. As soon as Mr. Right shows up - they pull the rip chord on chump man.
Others are straight up hedonistic cock carousel riders, who become ashamed of being sluts and all of a sudden want to act respectable.
It's not about playing games with women at all. It's about knowing when a bitch is fronting or not. If a woman doesn't fuck you - it's because she's not into it - and unless you make marked self improvement - that's not going to change.
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From a survey by Men's Health. Question 23.
http://www.menshealth.com/sex-women/sex-survey-results/page/3
Stop deluding yourself.
NAWALT
There is more psychological difference between individuals than genders.
All people are like that, or they aren't. I think universalisms are shit, so you know which gets my vote.