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Hypergamy doesn't care - University edition

Reddit View
January 21, 2019

This example will be very valuable for those who still think their special princess won't ruthlessly branch swing despite all what you've done for her after her feelz and hamster tells her she deserves better.

My best friend in university (Let's call him Mark) is a stand-up guy, jacked, alpha as fuck, dominant but also friendly, kind and a genuinely good person. He had a girlfriend (We'll call her Katie) who was obese when he met her in her freshman year but she was pretty in the face. Mark was nothing but supportive and loyal to her despite her weight and even rejected many women who wanted to fuck him. As far as i know she was good to him, always made him happy, wasn't a nag, cooked for him and supported his dreams and all that. When people asked why he chose to be with Katie despite her weight, he replied with falling in love with her personality and attitude and her weight can be worked on later.

Since Mark is a personal trainer he kindly suggested to Katie that she join him on gym sessions and will even personally oversee her weight loss and fitness program without any charges whatsoever. She reluctantly obliged and after a year she lost weight and became more attractive. Her body was more defined and with a pretty face like hers she got more attention. She went from a 4 or 5 to an 8-9. She got on social media...IG, snap and was flooded with validation, gifts etc. She even had a pathetic beta-orbiter send her $4000 then blocking him after lmao.

Since she lost weight Mark told me she became more unbearable, occasionally disrespecting him in front of social circles and blatantly eyeing other men during outings. I won't go into much detail, but in our social circle there is an athlete who got a professional contract worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and she added him on social media, objectively better than Mark in a superficial way and he was an asshole too. Inevitably, Katie broke up with Mark in his final year in university and guess who she ended up with 2 weeks later?..Yes the dude who just signed with a professional team. Mark was devastated and blocked her of everything. My friend will heal with time.

He was there for her through thick and thin, helped her lose weight, and loved every fiber of her being. And what does he get in return? know the answer. Hypergamy doesn't care if you were there for her and helped her lose weight. Hypergamy doesn't care and it never will.

TLDR - Read the damn post and don't be a lazy faggot.

Post Information
Title Hypergamy doesn't care - University edition
Author TopOccasion29
Upvotes 679
Comments 173
Date 21 January 2019 10:46 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Original Link
Similar Posts

Red Pill terms found in post:
alphabetabranch swinginghamsterorbiterhypergamydominancethe red pill

[–]modTheRedPike[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (4 children) | Copy

Ok, just finished the long-weekend mod roundup of high functioning autism and I feel compelled to say something. Look at this post. Read it in detail. Normally, I'd drop it, because it really isn't telling us anything. Yes, it revisits some concepts and it kinda has some FR flavor to it. I tend to leave these up on the weekends as filler and I'll leave this one up.

I have removed a lot of other posts today. Other mods did as well.

We aren't your diary. This isn't your blog. This isn't where to bring your ramblings that make us question your sanity. If you think you need to top post, you don't. I went a year and a half before my first top post. You should be striving to post something like Rollo, not giving us the half-witted version of why you negged wrong and now you will never have sex (that one earned a ban last Friday). Write something you should be proud to have out there. We are not trying to scroll the front page. We are trying to get to understand deeper things. We won't get there with banal shit flooding the sub.

Anyway, OP we are good. No need to respond.

[–]1Obediah_Stane189 points190 points  (4 children) | Copy

I bet you Katie will tell everyone within earshot how Mark was emotionally abusive and didn't care about the relationship lol

[–]TopOccasion29[S] 46 points47 points  (0 children) | Copy

Lol it was a lose lose situation for Mark.

[–]simpleafk29 points30 points  (0 children) | Copy

Lol this. This is such a common thing that women do to justify their actions. No matter how much was sacrificed, it doesn't matter because they weren't happy 1 day 2 years ago.

[–][deleted] 188 points189 points  (19 children) | Copy

Hypergamy does not discriminate as your friend so recently discovered. Better now that he’s disabused of any idealistic notions he may have harbored. The red pill is certainly a hard one to swallow, but alas, ignorance is never bliss.

[–]Endorsed ContributorKeffirLime19 points20 points  (1 child) | Copy

Hypergamy operates on a spectrum, from very likely to unlikely.

Improving her SMV while his remained the same is pushing it towards more likely.

Had he continued to dread her, show abundance and better control game he probably could have kept it more on the side of less likely.

Not to say he should be attached to her, but he should be embodying the factors that drive attraction which I'm sure he wasn't.

On a side note, improving your girls looks is also improving it for everyone else, I find it's always best to get them at their best, which is more than likely in her youth.

While she ages and gets less attractive, you age and build on factors that increase attraction. Sets the playing field far better.

[–]jihocech7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

A new alpha is always better and more interesting than the old one.

[–]uwey49 points50 points  (15 children) | Copy

I also believe hypergamy works for man as well. We just know what we want and don’t hide about it. We want to fuck hot young women. It is obviously a genetic tick, old women realize it, young women enjoys it. I believe women who knows mans hypergamy nature but keep calm and internalize is the definition of the best fuck buddy.

Men also fuck way up, for better look, hotter body, and younger age.

I also know Nu-man from post feminism, they keep solid shape and hunt rich lonely women, these top career women are indeed equivalent of beta male in female world. They are thirsty and rich, some man I know get that stay home dad status and end up with better side chick by using his wife’s money and social status.

Hypergamy just in human nature.

[–]1warlordchad53 points54 points  (1 child) | Copy

True to an extent but there’s a key difference: whereas attractive women get offers for dick all the time, attractive/high status men don’t just fall into pussy when they walk out the door.

Sure, it’s easier if you’re that guy, but in the sexual marketplace men have to take action to get laid in a way women don’t. Because of this, men don’t often act on their impulse to fuck younger more beautiful women for two reasons:

1) laziness—game takes skill, work, and time.

2) oneitis/loyalty—a lot of men are loyal to a fault and actually believe in and practice whatever moral code they’ve been taught. There are tons of older guys who could absolutely slay but they don’t because they take their role as husband/father/bf seriously—and as OP notes about Mark, they naively believe this will be rewarded and returned in kind.

Wrong. It will not. If a woman can get with a more attractive/high status man and the social consequences aren’t too high, she will. AWALT. The fact that a lot of women don’t and therefore appear loyal is because they don’t have better options.

[–]Nicolas063110 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

To be honest I am sure some girls are also loyal and get shitted too.

[–]YrjoWashingnen14 points15 points  (8 children) | Copy

Jeff Bezos fell into this trap by sleeping around and getting a divorce as a consequence. And tbh he's pretty dumb for doing so. His novelist wife surmounted the wall much more gracefully than a lot of other women out there, and like the Zucc's (rather mediocre-looking, but similar circumstanced) wife, she was with him at Amazon from the very beginning.

[–]AllThatJack17 points18 points  (5 children) | Copy

Yeah my only comment here is Jeff just beat her to the punch. Her Hypergamy was bound to kick in sooner or later and women rarely get caught cheating as well. Often the branch swing is to someone they’ve been banging for quite some time. One can’t overthink this shit. After two divorces, raising my own kids (yeah I beat the system 30 yrs ago on that shit) and hitting the dating market at my best, I learned many things. The biggest was married women love cheating and have absolutely ZERO conscience over it. I slept with ten different married women before I woke up one day and realized I was inviting a shit ton of bad kharma into my life. I stopped that shit straight away. Fwiw all those women are still happily married and I guarantee you none of them lost an ounce of sleep over it. Why did they do it? I’m not sure but I know why they came back. I did some very very dirty shit to them and they loved it. If their husbands knew they’d be divorced that’s for certain. I ramble, point being, big fucking whatever, Jeff just beat her to the punch.

[–] points points | Copy

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[–]AllThatJack3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

Sex God Method, hands down. The funny thing is I hadn’t read it. What I did have, was one unique interaction with a very submissive woman and in a word, after 20 years of romanticism on my part (yeah, ashamed, I was “that” guy), I unloaded on her. Something struck a chord in me, and I went apeshit. This was prior to the publication of “Shades of Grey” and to this day I’m still not certain what “broke” in me but by the end of that evening she was on her knees calling me “Master”, and “Your Majesty” and I met the guy I’d had tucked away in the cave all those years. That was hands down the greatest gift I ever received from a woman and I’ll never forget her. I’ve since, made the mistake a few times of flipping back into the “Old Romantic” and quickly realize/remember what a waste that is. I’ve been divorced 16 years now and single for the entire time. I lost count, which is cool because it’s never been about record setting or proving a point however I will say. IMHO, the moment you pursue a LTR or any variation, you’ve purple pilled. I came to this forum having experienced damn near all there is in regards to success and failure with women, took the red pill because HOW COULD YOU NOT. I’m not a hater, misogynist by any means nor am I bitter. What I am is someone that took a long time to learn what makes a sexual relationship work vs dismal failure and the reality is the moment you aren’t “The Man” in all things, you’ve failed yourself and her. It’s a bitter pill to swallow only because you’ve spent a lifetime of believing the Disney shit and frankly so has the woman. You don’t want to ask her, time and time again you’ll get the same answer and it’s wrong. We are driven by our own primal instinct as woman is. Sure the setting changes but the game never will. Until your prepared to “own that shit” you’ll experience the same failure over and over again.

[–] points points | Copy

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[–]TopOccasion29[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Very true, i despise the divorce laws in the west but bezos is an idiot. He brought this on himself. Even the woman he cheated with ain't all that lmao

[–]Synthetic_Citizen4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

Males want to be with as many women as possible at the same time indiscriminately. Women want to be with the highest value malepossible indiscriminately.

[–]uwey2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

I enjoy Charles Bukowski’s work for this very reason. He just fuck anyone who is willing to fuck at the time.

I also think after you have at least 40 plus sexual partners in your life, sex just kind of like regular food, it lose its taste. That is where my dilemma and actual sex expectation getting into danger zone. I can totally understand why people eventually getting weird cult like “eyes wide shut” sex orgy because regular sex is no longer work for them.

There should be a number that man eventually sexually transformed because sex no longer their priority. Once not in our system we can judge and choose women accurately. With fair light and smirk in our heart.

I believe that number is between 5-22. That is from most my close buddy’s experience, more sex partner they had better they get at reading women.

[–]lux_75 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Boom, this!


True to an extent as warlordchat says, albeit I disagree on the nature of the difference.


The difference is that women tend to be more "ruthless" in switching and going after what serves them best.

This is probably because they function on a tighter timeline and have a stronger need for security and safety.

[–]TopOccasion29[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

True words. He doesn't know anything about redpill but i will throw some redpills his way without being an asshole.

[–]tempolaca122 points123 points  (15 children) | Copy

Same here. Got into a LTR, slightly overweight, but very pretty. We dated 2 years, se lost weight, went from a 6 to a 8. Also I introduced her to a male-dominated field where she was almost the only woman and as such, her SMV skyrocket. I knew it was only a question of time before our breakup, I really didn't care about losing her and I sincerely wanted her good.

As predicted, she was increasingly unhappy until one day, out of nowhere, I was single again. She's dating CEOs and CTOs now.

Thing is, the sudden increase in SMV in girls is temporary. She's past the wall and her SMV is in free fall. Actually she already contacted me again and is talking to me. Also, as predicted.

SMV is an excellent metric to predict women behavior.

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (0 children) | Copy

So based haha. I love that ppl see how this shit works

[–]lux_715 points16 points  (5 children) | Copy


Are you replying to her and are you open to taking her back?

[–]BloodSurgery11 points12 points  (2 children) | Copy

Are you replying to her and are you open to taking her back?

Why? Nothing of value can be obtained from that

[–]lux_72 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, not saying there is, but we people seldom behave rationally or with what's best for us on paper.

[–]tempolaca7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy

Yes, unfortunately. I got a case of oneitis. Oneitis that mysteriously vanish every time she unblocks me to "talk" and I can see the bitch for what she is, an attention whore.

[–]lux_76 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's good that you're aware of it though. And it's interesting that you want her but still can detach yourself enough to call her a "bitch" and recognize the dynamics at play. In a way, I think it's very mature of you.

[–]SlimShauny12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy

SMV is an excellent metric to predict women behavior.

This is something I knew to be true, but have never seen in words. Saw this coming from a mile away with my last LTR, but couldn't explain why it is I saw it ending. Increase in SMV allows for simpler, justified branch swinging

[–]tempolaca2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

The equation is quite easy. You have to be >1 point above her SMV. Anything less, she branch.

[–]2CasaDeFranco7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy

Girls like this, I slowly reply but keep it weak; they will use plate status to drag you into a relationship.

[–]THEimporter0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

What you mean with plate status?

[–]2CasaDeFranco0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

They will use being a plate to slide into a relationship.

[–]reluctantly_red4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Actually she already contacted me again

This shit happens every new year like clockwork. Women start thinking about their choices after a depressing holiday and reach out to old friends. I just brush them off -- too late babe.

[–]alleyteris4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Dude be a bro and psat as the whole story and any updates

[–]flipwater3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I really didn't care about losing her and I sincerely wanted her good.


[–]Autism_Speaks_irl135 points136 points  (9 children) | Copy

Got a girl her drivers license, a job, a home, college enrollment, and friends. All of a sudden she thought she was better than me and dropped me saying she could make it on her own.

She lost her job, dropped out of college, and is now thousands of dollars in debt. She's currently fucking any Saudi foreign exchange student she can in hopes of grabbing their families money

Little does she know the Suadi's don't give money to foreign whores like Americans do

[–]WeddingCrasher9125 points26 points  (0 children) | Copy

I am middle eastern too. I was a beta bux husband to an American who turned out to be a narcissistic whore. Spent a shitload of money and stayed with her for the sake of the GC. I failed and thats how I found TRP.

[–]iintrOOutroo36 points37 points  (1 child) | Copy

As someone who has been around Saudis, they do spend a fuckload.

Btw, did she try to get in touch with u after karma fucked her.

[–]yungassed25 points26 points  (0 children) | Copy

To you it might seem like a fuckload, to them they wipe their ass with it.

[–]The-Peter-Principle24 points25 points  (2 children) | Copy

Yes they do. Quite a take a massive Schmitz on said fair maiden. And instagram is the facilitator.

[–]yungassed12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy

To them it's literally what they spend on toilet paper, or you know.. white women.. same thing to them really.

[–]The-Peter-Principle14 points15 points  (0 children) | Copy

Ey habibti you make me blush!

[–]metallicdrama10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

Lol google Dubai portapotty. This girl is getting gangbanged, shit on and having food shoved in her pussy.

[–]Acceptable_Camel2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Little does she know the Suadi's don't give money to foreign whores like Americans do

They do, they just gotta earn it

[–]zeekt1293 points94 points  (1 child) | Copy

I need to read shit like this to remind me of why i took the pill.

Great post.

[–][deleted] 80 points81 points  (17 children) | Copy

Fucking Mark should have kept on banging new girls every two weeks the whole time. Shame on him for letting Disney dictate reality to him. And Katie? Whores gonna whore, pimps have got to be pimping.

[–]TopOccasion29[S] 53 points54 points  (9 children) | Copy

Mark doesn't want to do that apparently. He could easily get a girl everyday to fuck but prefers a stable LTR and he's a morally upright guy.

[–]ainihon53 points54 points  (3 children) | Copy

Can’t blame him for moral choices. If he’s a real man he’ll do what he wants, he chose his path regardless of what majority here would look at as losses. I respect that.

He shouldn’t feel bad for choosing what he thought was right. He just put his faith in the wrong person is all.

[–]CensorThis11115 points16 points  (0 children) | Copy

He shouldn’t feel bad for choosing what he thought was right. He just put his faith in the wrong person is all.

And as a fellow moral lurker, I actually appreciate this post despite the mod-complaint.

I am in a constant battle where some instinct deep below is trying to convince me that other people are like me. That loyalty and empathy are inherent qualities. This would normally lead me down a dark path in relationships if it wasn't for the 101 ways I read about people getting fucked over because of selfish motivations in this subreddit.

Field reports are a kind of evidence. Seeing enough of it helps to take off the rose colored glasses, and might save some people from landmines on the road ahead.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

So, what you're saying is that it just kinda sorta happened to him?

[–]ainihon14 points15 points  (0 children) | Copy

Dodged a bullet actually. If he did his best to his capacity believing in his definition of “a good man” then I hardly think any of it is his fault.

A bit naive? Yes Will he learn from it? Maybe Is he wrong for trying to be a good person based on virtues and values he believes in? Definitely not

[–]latinasonly15 points16 points  (1 child) | Copy

im not saying this is the case with your freind, but many guys may be high SMV , really alpha guys but way too soft with women , so women dont respect them , they might respect an arrogant loser more !

[–]Ryonne8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

You can apply red pill principles to exclusive LTRs. It just sounds like he made all the wrong moves. Should have been working to improve himself, avoided putting the girl on the pedestal even if he was monogamous with her, and applied some dread game. Always let her know who would be better off single. That's the game I've played in my LTR and it's been going strong for over a year.

[–]EdmondDaunts2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

The only real issue for Mark is: does he have sufficient contingency to deal with her leaving?

As in does he have core activities that are independent from other people’s direct input?

If so then he’s learned a lesson.

Another comment on here was about Bezos. Even if he loses half, he’s still got 70B in contingency. And the mentality to make it back.

[–]odaklanan_insan1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

the only issue with Mark is, that there were not enough social pressure to keep his ex from going full whore..

[–]1Obediah_Stane14 points15 points  (0 children) | Copy

Exactly, you should always cultivate options no matter how good your relationship is. It can go from 60-0 in the blink of an eye.

[–]godsbestgift5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

is this really an 11 hour ebook? gonna have to put this on my phone...

[–]kidbagz3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Lol, just did the same. 911mb mp3 download

[–]serio13372 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Isn't it kind of his bad for committing to the LTR then. Cheaters going to cheat for sure, but for those with a moral code it'd have to be an open relationship at the start.

[–]TheRedneckbeardPill1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Awesome audiobook. Tyvm for sharing

[–]MindlessCalendar59 points60 points  (22 children) | Copy

If she starts improving herself you need to improve yourself as well, otherwise you will lose her. If she could've gotten him when she was an obese 4 she will believe she can do way better than him when she's a thin 8.

This is on him.

[–]TopOccasion29[S] 31 points32 points  (15 children) | Copy

Mark is probably a 7 or 8 himself. Like i said in my post he is a personal trainer and jacked, but still nothing compared to a rich athlete.

[–]2CasaDeFranco24 points25 points  (11 children) | Copy

A personal trainer is pretty low in the grand scheme of things to be frank, he'd had been better off investing in improving his own station in life. Hypergamy didn't fuck him, Mark fucked himself by investing in someone who wouldn't reciprocate.

[–]metallicdrama8 points9 points  (8 children) | Copy

Never invest in women. They're worse investments than cars. Invest in the right shit and women come as a perk anyways.

[–]andreion242 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy

My first post ever... Cars are not a bad investment. You can make shit load of money from that...

[–]metallicdrama5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy

Depreciating asset at best. Cars are not an investment. They're a liability that at best can possibly have some return to cut some loss.

[–]andreion242 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

Again, cars are not a bad investment. For you they might be, but there are a lot of classic cars out there that rise in value day by day. From manufacturers like Dacia and Fiat to ones like Porsche. Even new cars are an investment if you know which car to buy. 4 years ago i bought a dacia 1100 in good shape for 1.3k euros and now it costs around 3k so almost double the value.

[–]metallicdrama2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

Nice goal post shift. Collectible cars can be a good investment. But not so much because of the fact that they're a car and will be used as a car, but because of scarcity. Purchasing vehicles for transportation is not a good investment strategy. When one speaks generally about buying a car they are discussing what was very obviously meant. If you need people to be that precise in normal conversation to avoid misunderstanding you might be another idiot on the internet.

[–]andreion24-2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy

"Never invest in women. They're worse investments than cars. "
" might be another idiot on the internet. "
There's no point in explaining an ignorant why he's wrong. Have fun losing money with cars, I won't.

[–]2CasaDeFranco3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Agreed on perk point, but in spending time with a woman you're investing the one thing you can't return.

[–]SalporinRP0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

You're right. Personal training is an ok starting place if you're in your early-to-mid 20's but you need to be thinking bigger.

My friend was a personal trainer in a very rich town. Was making a solid 60k/yr as a 22 year old doing that and teaching those rich mom cycling classes.

He then had an idea for a company that did fitness "excursions" around the world. Basically guided fitness vacations in cool places.

Started it, grinded his ass for 3 years and now is making 6 figures at 25.

[–]2CasaDeFranco0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Wise move by your friend, as long as you’re moving forward in life; and challenging yourself. With anything, if you apply yourself it’s possible to be financially independent but it takes hard work for some vocations.

[–]destraht8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy

If he is jacked and possibly only an 7 then he must just not have a good face.

[–]hammerhearth5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

It doesn't matter. If you're a 7+ you can generate tingles. All it takes is a girls night out away from the 3 year relationship

[–]itsjustsimon-30 points31 points  (4 children) | Copy

That's naive.

She can be an 8, but to the guy with an extra high SMV, she's just another plain Jane for an easy lay. The best part is that Jane now thinks she deserves a rich athlete and nothing else.

Even if she gets a guy who's maybe 8 or even 9, she will think she settled with him.

And no matter how much you invest in yourself, you'll never be a rich young athlete.

That's a reality.

Guys that think that everything can be solved with self-improvement live in delusion, especially if you want to play on the top level. Status changes everything.

[–]MindlessCalendar4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

She can be an 8, but to the guy with an extra high SMV, she's just another plain Jane for an easy lay.

Irrelevant for Mark.

The best part is that Jane now thinks she deserves a rich athlete and nothing else.

You don't know that. Maybe she wanted an 8 or a 9 instead of Mark. Truth is he doesn't sound that great/alpha to me. If he actually was that great he wouldn't LTR an obese chick in the first place, let alone be devastated because this one girl left him.

And no matter how much you invest in yourself, you'll never be a rich young athlete.

You won't, but you don't know if she necessarily wanted a rich young athlete. Maybe she just wanted someone better than Mark? Maybe she wanted to ride the CC? Can't blame her if she got him when she was obese then suddenly was hot.

Guys that think that everything can be solved with self-improvement live in delusion

Never said it would 100% be fixed with improving yourself, but it's a good first step. You can't expect an obese 4 to stay with the same guy when she improves herself to an 8. That's just how it goes. Dread game and self-improvement go a long way in that case.

[–]tchower4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

Thing that this girl is gonna learn pretty soon is that this guy being a rich young athlete will not last forever, if the guy is blue pilled enough and retires or settles down from his profession and decides to marry her and be a provider, his carrier will eventually end in time. So does this whore then jump to the next dick with money? Hopefully the guy is red pilled enough to not change his life or build his athletic carrier around this bitch because of hypergamy, or even worse, waste his energy and youth on her before she gets fat again like she was with the previous dude, now the rich athlete has to experience this post wall broad. I think the creator looked favorably on the guy by allowing him to explore younger and hotter girls out there. He was right to focus on self improving, wrong to waste his time focusing on a broad instead of himself.

[–]itsjustsimon-11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy

Use paragraphs, please.

The first couple of sentences is just your male hamstering of some kind of revenge because she picked him but in reality it’s not even her. It’s her hypergamy.

Even if the guy stops being who he is ( loses his contract or whatever ) she’ll still think she’s now playing in this league.

The problem is she will not get her vagina wet for the “average 8” any time soon, if ever once she had a dick of a pro athlete ( or any other guy in the same league).

Dating world is collapsing because the high SMV guys have unlimited reach with social media. It will be pretty soon where a male 9 will LTRs 4 and 5. Just watch.

[–]tchower4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

No man, it’s just a simple fact. When you’re an athlete, you do not stay rich and young very long in most cases, unless it’s a sport he can do into his 40’s or 50’s. If you look at most professional football or baseball players, the 1% of the top 1% are lucky to be making their millions into their thirties, it’s not about jealousy dude, this is the red pill, not the blue pill. I’m just saying, who cares that the bitch left him, either way, she’s gonna eventually hit the wall or be fat again, but you can always count on hypergamy no matter what, that’s why self-improvement and not allowing a bitch to dictate your life is the best idea to avoid this problem, because you can always improve yourself and not give a shit. An athlete wasting his energy and youth on a bitch is a bad idea, he should be focused on his sport and keeping an eye out for other woman if he’s red pilled. Aka never pedestal a bitch.

[–]Endorsed ContributorKeffirLime9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy

It was also probably a classic case of as she improved he invested more.

As other guys started hitting on her, validating her and giving her attention he probably held on tighter, mate guarded etc

Right play would have been to maintain as her behavior maintained and dreaded or withdrawn as her behavior declined.

[–][deleted] 40 points41 points  (7 children) | Copy

I like the ones where boyfriends plan, organize and pay for big back packer holidays around the world so they can both find themselves and instead the woman just finds foreign dick.

[–]majaka123425 points26 points  (1 child) | Copy

Literally the biggest real life cuck I've ever seen - this dude did exactly that - british girl with a kiwi following her around like a lost puppy. "friends for years. Best friends even".

While he's telling me this and I'm paying for the whole hostel to get wasted (get a private room in a nice hostel, spend the money you saved from a hotel on some bottles of alcohol and mixers!) she literally takes this random dude by the hand who just sat down beside us, they go off to fuck somewhere and come back fifteen minutes later all messy haired.

Guy is completely oblivious and interrupts our conversation to start talking with her again when she comes back full of someone else's cum.

Don't be this guy.

[–]dani0982 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

Is there a story behind this?

[–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (3 children) | Copy

I've just seen it like 10 million times.

Host a lot of back packers at my house via

[–]markinsinz70 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

How often do you smash girls that way?

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy

It is really easy, I actually like to meet travellers so I don't lay it on thick. But make sure I pick one every now and then. They fall in love straight away, cooking dinner with you sharing a bottle of wine yad yada

[–]jewishsupremacist8814 points15 points  (6 children) | Copy

ha..and he will leave her once he gets into the major leagues and meets other women who will fancy him

[–]TopOccasion29[S] 29 points30 points  (5 children) | Copy

True she's nothing but a pump and dump to him. I can see the writing on the wall. She gets dumped by superstar athlete and she comes back crying to Mark, begging him to take her back.

[–]WeddingCrasher916 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

Update us when this happens

[–]jewishsupremacist8818 points19 points  (2 children) | Copy

atleast your boy is a chad. if he was a manlet or an ethniccel he'd really be fucked

[–]1scissor_me_timbers003 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

How would you define manlet specifically

[–]2jbpostv5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Women can’t find good men because they choose men who will dump them for someone else or better. It’s a subconscious marker of hypergamy.

[–]royer449 points10 points  (5 children) | Copy

Holy shit. Who are those people who send thousands of dollars to girls they like? When did we get so low, like what's the endgame here?

[–]majaka123414 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy

"maybe she'll fuck me."

Bluepilled cuck boy who doesn't spend money on anything, lives at mum's place and has literally any stable corporate job.

[–]Morphs_3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I think those guys tell themselves "it's nothing", and act as if they're brushing it off. Trying to give off this huge provider signal.

Seen it so many times. Good looking chick trying to do/carry something and some thirsty BP guy goes out of his way to help her and act as if it's a very little thing to him.

[–]WeddingCrasher917 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy

He could have fucked 30 top tier escorts with that money

[–]Kruppstahlterminator6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy

133 bucks per escort? I don't think so.

[–]WeddingCrasher914 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

They cost around 150 bucks here for 1 shot. 200-250 for 2

[–]SpectacularFox12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy

Women don't start out great people then turn into self absorbed, thoughtless cunts. I've never seen that. They're always like that if it's in them. You have to find the ones that aren't like that. Usually the issue is the guy is not perceptive enough or too in love to see what the what the woman is really like. There are decent looking women who are genuinely good people and will be loyal. The challenge is having the discernment and objectivity to identify them.

[–]morexel25 points26 points  (3 children) | Copy

80% of women who undergo bariatric surgery break up with their partners. I always get a good laugh at how hamsters feel obliged to explain that one away even when they're not asked to.

[–]lololasaurus7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

Can add data point from personal experience.

[–]sagricorn0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Do you have some kind of evidence on that?

[–]morexel4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm pretty sure you can Google that without my help champ.

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (3 children) | Copy

You could write an entire book (or a real chode of a pamphlet) on walking the tightrope of grooming a partner.

Along the lines of "Make her better for You, but not for the Next You."

[–]Protocol_Apollo2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

But how would one ensure that she is better for you but not for the next you? What things could you do to a woman that make her ONLY better for you?

Grooming a partner surely would always yield positive results for you AND every other guy out there no?

Therefore, I would argue that you probably shouldn't groom a partner at all since it would make her better for you and for the next you, unless Im missing something.

[–]Morphs_1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

The guy must have much higher SMV than her, especially after her transformation. So perhaps he should get more jacked or something as she improves her SMV?

On the other hand, because of the dating up principle, if she becomes an 8+, she can attract pretty much any guy and her hypergamy goes haywire

[–]Bleu_Cheese_Pursuits21 points22 points  (0 children) | Copy

I believe this is caled Briffault's law.

[–]latinasonly26 points27 points  (11 children) | Copy

your freind lost his girl because as she became more self confident and respected , he allowed himself to be disrespected. you must command respect- there are time respect is not given by default. your boy had to confront his girl and put her in her place. he should have said "yeah , my girl is hot stuff.. all thanks to ME" and reminded his girl of this. beta orbiter passes her 4k - demand a cut ;) he lost psychological influence over her.

[–]tempolaca34 points35 points  (8 children) | Copy

No, he lost his girl because she met a better guy. It's the point of the post.

[–]latinasonly17 points18 points  (0 children) | Copy

im not countering the fact that the girl left the guy for someone better , but I am calling the guy out where he messed up. he made a mistake . OP clearly states that the girl was acting diarespectful in public toward the guy. it sounds like as his girl became more confident , the guy was not able to handle her.

[–]Fulp_Piction4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

There's always gonna be objectively better guys, if thats what you take away from the post as the reason she left then you're fucked. The point of this place is to focus on what we can do ourselves - Mark has low self esteem, allowed himself to be walked over instead of putting a bitch in her place and broke Briffault's law. Thats why she jumped ship - she'll jump to the best ship thats passing, obviously, but she was gonna jump one way or the other because Mark never exhibited the kind of attitude needed to keep a girl on the hook.

[–]PM_Me_OK3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

No the point isnt that. He isnt a better guy, he just has more money. So the point is bitches will leave you for an asshole because the asshole has more money. In the post, op says the guy is an asshole. And op is wrong to say objective, because the correct word is subjective.

[–]Standgrounding1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Now we need a post on how to obliterate the better guys outta the social circle

[–]tempolaca3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Good luck 'obliterating' a football athlete. Sadly, you likely can't, no matter how much you improve. Drop the bitch and get another one.

[–]Standgrounding0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Get him out of social circle. I mean, there are techniques for that. She might chase him, but hey he can find a better betch anytime

[–]yttanx0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

No. It's clear that this went over your head. He lost his girl because he is a beta boy and definitely is not alpha. His girl lost respect for him = beta soft boy.

[–]metallicdrama2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

False. Should have said she's a work in progress and never changed that story.

[–]latinasonly2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Nice. That’s a good one too !

[–]UnderneathTheGun27 points28 points  (1 child) | Copy

But what has he done for her LATELY? :)

[–]1clon3man5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

One point that TRP often misses is that these are good examples of what shitty people do, but the concept being discussed is more subtle as it applies to most people's lives.

There are pleanty of women who are too insecure to branch swing and content to merely create problems & stay with the dude they are with. This the trap most people are likely to fall into, or at least the one I see most often in my subcommunity of more traditional values where women don't have 34 sexual partners in their 20s. They might look to swing but tbh that's not a big deal compared to someone who becomes a manipulative leech.

[–]Morphs_6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

Big city culture plays the biggest role here. The anonimity and endless supply of replacement dicks makes hypergamy a breeze.

Living in a smaller town there are just less fish. And it's easier to be in the top % SMV as a middle aged guy if you lift.

[–]smokecheck19765 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Once again, we have someone surprised that a university girl in our current western society is something less than truthful. This rates right up there with a fat chick that was complaining that after her fat chick friends lost their weight, they also lost their "boisterous personalities" and became more demure. She couldn't comprehend that they no longer needed to be loud to attract attention or that the guys they wanted attention from would not respond to them being loud in a positive manner.

What you need to wrap your mind around is that neither Mark nor Katie, in terms of relationships, did anything wrong. Relationships grow, change, and die with time. It isn't an excuse to not have a relationship, just to live in the moment when it comes to relationships.

[–]omega_dawg934 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

mark didn't have an abundance mentality.

mark was too young to be settling for one broad, esp at a university.

mark didn't keep himself as the prize but instead made her the prize.

alpha isn't a look... mark prolly looked alpha. it doesn't mean he was. Kate proved it.

mark is to blame for all of this. bc you can't blame a woman for being a woman or for being hypergamous.

mark will likely take her back after about 30 guys, including other jocks, bbc's, bar ONS, have their turn pumping their DNA into her womb.

to women, attention is more addictive than crack. she's done.


[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

despite all what you've done for her

You can't negotiate attraction, and covert contracts don't work.

You may think you're investing in the relationship, but she feels like you are paying for her time. This obviously decreases respect and attraction.

Don't invest, don't plan for the future, don't "try and make this work". Expect the relationship to end any day. One day you'll be right and you won't be surprised and have your emotional and sexual life eviscerated as most men experience.

he replied with falling in love with her personality and attitude and her weight can be worked on later

I don't respect him for this attitude and I doubt she did either. This is classic "investing in the future" which is nothing more than being a willing stepping stone for her to move on up when she's got all she can from you.

He was there for her through thick and thin

There is no such thing as relationship equity. In fact due to a quirk in human nature people find it easier to walk away from someone else's investment in them than their investment in someone else. If she's winning she can easily walk away care free. If she's investing it's much harder for her to walk away.

Be the guy she invests in, and always expect her to leave. Never expect a future together. Build yourself, not the relationship.

Hypergamy doesn't care if you were there for her and helped her lose weight. Hypergamy doesn't care and it never will.

Absolutely, therefore live your life accordingly. Plan around this. Live in concert with the world and don't fight it. Women are as they are, there is no loyalty so don't expect any.

Standard RP stuff, but the reminder is always nice.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy

Another reason to never be invested emotionally into a woman.

[–]lux_75 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy

Great post, love these stories.

And your TLDR gave a good laugh :).


Bringing someone up after they've been down carries these risks sometimes. They get back on top and not only their options increase, but they also want to forget and leave behind their "bad" years -and you become the one who reminds them of those years-.


I need to make the difficult question though: do you think it would have been any different if it had been a man going from obese to thin and attractive?

[–]TopOccasion29[S] -2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy

Tbh, i don't think it would be different. Older Men trade their wives who were there for them since the beginning for younger and more attractive women, but some usually still fulfill their role as provider and leader.

BUT if we go by numbers then i would say although both sexes would trade for a better version of their partner, the amount of men who trade their already attractive partner would be less than the amount of women who do so...not by much though.

[–]lux_72 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I agree with you.

And I also think the way it happens would be different: men to value more ideals such as "loyalty" while women tend to be more ruthless in their switching.

[–] points points | Copy

[permanently deleted]

[–]majaka12344 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thus the best revenge is a life well lived.

Shitty people tend to have shitty long term consequences due to their shitty attitude to life and general lack of discipline due to taking all the short cuts and no thinking of the future.

Good on ya man, and good riddance to the narwhal.

[–]NabroleonBonaparte4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Although Mark made a foolish and sacrificial decision to stay with fatty because of FEELS, I’d love to see the result if he had played it like this:

• Dumps her; says he likes her, but at this size it won’t work.

• Offer her the workout coaching like he did originally but not dating and instead treating her like a client.

• Fucks every hot girl that had been hitting on him and doesn’t hide that fact from Chubz.

• Sees Chubz evolve into Hottie and congratulates her.

• Tell Hottie “It’s so attractive that you’re so disciplined and worked hard on yourself, let’s get drinks and see if that chemistry is still there...”

In this scenario you frame the relationship as her working to earn you indirectly, and then instead of saying “I want to fuck you cause you’re hot now” he tells her she “empowered” herself and THATS the reason why you want her back, further establishing you as her source of validation.

Idk if sports Chad would alter the results though

[–]DocPBJ0076 points7 points  (9 children) | Copy

This further makes me feel better as I try to fight my social anxiety- even those people with friends, good humor, good body etc. go through such drama. Its all about where you are and the time- changes everything. Some people are just lucky so they have friends....I could be the only male in a class and get laid...nothing special about friends or girls I guess..

I have severe social anxiety tho and want friends, like people who do shit like me, go to the movies, restaurants etc. But I am lonely in life, just studying, going to the uni and back home. Spending my day in the library cubicle all alone, don't like making eye contact or speaking, but deep down want to be loved by people and even fuck bitches ofcourse.

Open to any advice

[–]careless934 points5 points  (7 children) | Copy

Just start doing an activity that puts you in contact with other people. While it's not complicated by itself you may feel uncomfortable, just remember it's normal. You can start by doing small steps to build momentum, then it will all feel easier, or you can go balls out lol. As I tend to be skittish I prefer smalls steps, just do what feels right to you, but remember to embrace the suck and to not be stuck in your comfort zone.

[–]DocPBJ0075 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy


I am the same. Skittish. I sweat a lot, i look creepy i feel sometimes with looking around (not knowing where to look at times to avoid eye contact). Also I think I have a resting bitch face.

[–]DocPBJ0072 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

But I am funny when comfortable and turn alpha

[–]careless932 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

"Its all about where you are and the time- changes everything", not true, only if you happen to stumble upon a pile of gold. Remember that everyone that seems to have it together in one area or another has had to work for it, nobody is born with a six pack and a fully formed social network. Those are all results of work in one way or another.

As a way to overcome those insecurities just remember that everyone has them, they always show in one way or the other. People think that other people notice their flaws as they do. Nobody does that, unless you're like missing a hand.

Just accept what you can't change and change what you can. If something is out of your control why bother with it ? And if it is just bother with how you react to it.

I have a sense you're new here, just read the sidebar and many of those insecurities will be put to rest.

[–]careless932 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

Ps: About the resting bitch face. Own it. Accept it as just a characteristic. Just remember to smile normally, you face doesn't need to become a rigid mask.

If used correctly it can create tension. For me it works well with a strong eye contact, to turn it sexual.

[–]DocPBJ0071 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

By rigid mask you mean I dont need to try to overcome my bitch face?

[–]careless932 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

What I mean it's you while you need to own your bitch face, you shouldn't be stuck with it all the time, you should just smile normally and not be preoccupied, worried, if have or have not a bitch face.

[–]DocPBJ0071 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

So just dont care about it....I think I will end up having it all the time then..but at least no creepy smiles

[–]cluelessguitarist1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Get into bjj that would help you alot.

[–]Andyive2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Ya hate to see it, great post.

[–]crespo_modesto2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

> and don't be a lazy faggot.

aye aye numero uno primero

[–]Yog-Nigurath2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Good for him he didn't got married. Now he can game in freedom.

[–]GAndGMethod2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is why I don’t subscribe to the whole “leave her better then you found her” motto that some puas and even this place used to always say.

You change a girl for the better, she is going to think she can upgrade and do better.

Than backward rationalize about how all the improvements she made in her life that she got from you were her idea.

You get no credit, and you don’t even get to enjoy the results of the time you put in to help her.

[–]BigBeardDaddyK2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Read the damn post and don't be a lazy faggot. LMAO

[–]civilizedfrog1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Him trying to mold a person into his ideal woman is his fault. If I was him I would have immediately dumped her ass after her change in behavior.

[–]piggiebiggie1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

tbh for me the whole point of redpill and all this shit is to understand the differing priorities of the sexes and how they make us operate, then understand game theory and hopefully work with your partner to rise above all that shit. It's a shame that this girl was not capable of doing this, but in my opinion if oneself and the partner truly try to be aware of their innate thought patterns then the more free both will be to overcome them and minimize their influence in our behaviour.

TL;DR: Gotta be upfront with oneself and each other about human nature, priorities of the sexes and decide with your partner that not, you won't play that game theoretic bullshit with each other. I think there's a way to do this but my hands hurt from typing already better stop

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is another good reason why you don't settle down in an LTR until your thirties at least. When she's at her peak SMV she's more likely to swing when you're not at your peak

[–]fcking771 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

OMG I'm taking my red pills again! In LTR here.

[–]metallicdrama1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Meaning of life: fuck bitches. Boy should have just banged her til his dick fell off and nothing more. Then had a side chick. And then dumped this thot when someone banged him better. Alpha widow and move on.

[–]1sezamus1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

My side of dealing with hypergamy: At an University I had a lovely, beautiful and caring girlfriend. The hook was, her boyfriend died of cancer few months before I met her. During the dark times of grief I supported her and our relationship was healing her pain. We loved each other and I planned to propose. One day she had an integration after hours meeting with her corpo-team. A guy, former co-worker she always mentioned as "the sweet loser" also attented that meeting and turned out to get his diploma and got a well-paid job, while I was struggling in the job market. Before her going out, she was saying she loved me. 2 weeks after that, the hypergamous thoughts made her telling me "I do not feel anything towards you anymore", after 4 years relationship, tons of my support and my true and caring love. Just like that I became nobody to her.

Her words devastated me. Actually they killed me inside, I am more psycho today.

[–]Zech4riah1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yes but the time might had been up too. Girls get bored sexually to a same guy in 3-4 years at latest.

[–]RedHoodhandles1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I read the damn post so here's your TLDR:

Personal trainer LTRs a 4/5ish fatty with pretty a face. Personal trainer wips her through gym and upgrades her to a 8/9 (geee so many 9s on the interwebz). Ex fatty deserves better now and branch swings to a higher branch. The end.

[–]TriggeringEveryone2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Mark was nothing but supportive and loyal to her despite her weight rejected many women who wanted to fuck him.
he replied with falling in love with her personality and attitude

Ugh what a turnoff. She must have had contempt for him.

I'm not being sarcastic.

[–]1scissor_me_timbers001 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah I think deep down if she knows she doesn’t deserve him on actual mate value, but he “loves her anyway” based on “personality and attitude”, something in her hindbrain detects weakness in him for this and it turns her off. There’s an inconguency that doesn’t exactly compute and so she may begin to harbor a suspicion about him being a bitch inside.

[–]Luckyluke231 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I don't blame her. she went from ever being allowed into the candy store. to now being told, " you can have whatever you want".

going to drive some people loopy.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

One word - oneitis. Don’t do that.

[–]CAPIreland2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Damn, hit similarly for me in the past. Helped a girl who was hot get hotter, she moved on, but I'd always kept the training as my thing, so she had literally 0 idea what to do in the gym and it lead to me seeing her 2 weeks later twice as heavy as she'd been before and (I'd later find out) single. Your friend learnt a valuable lesson. Maybe guide him towards here and see what he thinks. Might help him in the long run.

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[–]mindplaybyneo0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This katie also works in a supplement store?

[–]wholewheatdirtydog0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

If Mark is the man you say he is then he'll move on in no time maybe you should consider introducing him gradually into the red pill mindset?

[–]TopOccasion29[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yes I will, i doubt he'll fully accept it though but i will try.

[–]AllThatJack0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Read the sidebar, digest the material, pay attention to what’s happening around you. Sure there are a lot of angry guys here, men who were stripped of their well being and left with nothing from horrifying divorce proceedings. There’s so much information it can be overwhelming. Read between the lines, find out where you want to be and go there. I’m not going to detail the porn story it’s not my style. Suffice it to say if you want a woman for a bit or awhile you have to be “The Man”. Even then! Buyer BEWARE! As they say in skydiving, you can do everything right and still die! There are no guarantees other than gravity and hypergamy.

[–]Thisismybot80 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

My best friend in university (Let's call him Mark) is a stand-up guy, jacked

No one gives a fuck if he's jacked. Continue.

alpha as fuck


He had a girlfriend (We'll call her Katie) who was obese when he met her in her freshman year but she was pretty in the face.

Sorry your friend was never "alpha as fuck". If he was anything close to that, he wouldn't be in a relationship with a fatty. There's no point in reading the rest of this.

[–]CrimsonShiv0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Well what did you expect?

Always keep two in the kitty.

Textbook heartiste.

[–]yttanx0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

News flash!!!

My best friend in university (Let's call him Mark) is a stand-up guy, jacked, alpha as fuck, dominant

He had a girlfriend (We'll call her Katie) who was obese when

Your boy was not "ALPH4 AF". So sorry!! OP is kinda irrelevant after this fact. However some good discussion in this thread. Just pointing this out.

A real alpha such as myself would NEVER LTR AN OBESE WOMAN. She would have been lucky to even suck my dick. Doesn't matter how "pretty in the face" she was.

[–]NoControversyPlz0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

i have never seen a legit chad date a fat woman

what i think happened is you've grossly exaggerated how epic Mark is, they started of value matched, she greatly improved and then left him

sad and yeah worth a post, but nothing new

[–]Locko_O0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

lol this story smells so made up and really offers nothing to learn from, only appeasing to the misogyny of the incels here which all go: 'ya great post, women suck!' smh

[–]TopOccasion29[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Err believe what you like...couldn't care less.

[–]careofKnives-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Wouldn’t that be a blue pill example? I’m a noob, sorry in advance.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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