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Camille11325
[–]JackGetsIt7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (52 children) | Copy Link
Wonderful blog post.
It's worthwhile exploring how we got here. How did this hyper female centric society rear up and the answer to that is sufferage.
Now I want to be very clear that I believe women have the right to vote and own property in the United States. That being said when women came onto the voter roles politicians had to cater to them if they wanted to keep their seats. It's easy for us to beat up on politicians today for making bad decision but for the most part they do what their constituents tell them to do. This feminine pandering created a very different society that I would argue hasn't improved conditions or happiness for women. Welfare is one small example of this. Welfare seemed like a good idea but it had the effect of driving men out of the home because when the case worker came by if you had a male partner you weren't allowed to receive aid.
[–]Camille11325[S] 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link
Agreed, although I take a step further and think that women shouldn't have ever been allowed to vote! Women had soft power which allowed them to influence the community and family, and they could form groups to influence politics in general as well. Now the female sphere isn't really in existence anymore (due to a lot of things but especially feminism) and women can't properly channel their power and drive without first being smart enough and creative enough to figure out how to do this in our current system.
To be clear I don't think that today voting privileges should just universally be stripped from all women immediately. But I would definitely support a new system that restricted who could vote and changed up how local, state, and federal decisions were made. The more votes there are the less each vote is worth, and voting also becomes less serious.
Welfare seemed like a good idea but it had the effect of driving men out of the home because when the case worker came by if you had a male partner you weren't allowed to receive aid.
Yep welfare encourages women to have lots of children but not officially commit to anyone in order to receive the maximum amount of benefits without working. Totally achieving the goal of destroying nuclear families and giving more power to the state.
[–]JackGetsIt2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
I take a step further and think that women shouldn't have ever been allowed to vote!
You sound like an Ann Colter fan!
Women probably still have a lot of softpower as well. Suffrage just gave them both hard and soft power. A good example of this is soft power wielded in institutions like google. Doesn't matter how many men google employs or how competent they are if they cross a political line they are canned (see James Damore). Board members and CEO's regardless of their political leaning fear liberal female soft power. It's fascinating that we live in a free Republic but live most of our lives in more top down corporate environments governed by extreme political correctness. That political correctness is also leaking into our private life as well where the wrong tweet or facebook convo could get you fired, see Colin Moriarity; pure soft power. What's fascinating is that lots of feminist still sleep with men that hold traditional conservative views but they then go to work and tacitly support their firing to uphold the feminist imperative. There are very few high profile women in the positions to publicly go against feminism (Judge Judy comes to mind and she's been pressed hard by feminist). Jude Judy is the prototype of a women I'm ok with voting because she's in an arena that help her understand law, business, taxes, etc.
Have you seen the article in Glamour about the girl that couldn't stop sleeping with Trump supporters?
https://www.glamour.com/story/hooking-up-with-trump-voters-essay
Fascinating mental gymnastics.
[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Yes love her! I agree women still have soft power, we just don't have the same systems in place where soft power can be fully used without upsetting the balance of male/female dynamics. Have you read this post yet? Totally ties into what you're saying about Google exercising its power on behalf of women.
I don't know much about Judge Judy but she seems like a great woman. If I were to brainstorm some conditions for voting I feel like it should be restricted to all tax paying, law abiding citizens over the age of 35 who are either married (heterosexually) or serving in the armed forces/veterans. Anyone under 35 could influence politics via memberships in groups, especially at the local level.
I had not seen that Glamour article but it's pretty hilarious how widespread this issue is. Thanks for sharing it with me!
[–]JackGetsIt0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
tax paying, law abiding citizens over the age of 35 who are either married (heterosexually) or serving in the armed forces/veterans
Tax paying. Yes.
Over 35 (I'd kick this to 25 and if you're in the military or own property you get to vote under 25.)
Anyone can influence... yes I agree with this.
As far as the marriage thing goes I think it's time for the state to get out of marriage all together. All divorce laws and taxes that benefit couples or hurt couples should be torn down. Only religious institutions should be involved in marriage and benefits or negatives related to marriage should only come from church and private companies not from the state. That will probably never happen in the US but you never know.
[–]Camille11325[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Ooh I like your exceptions for 25, they definitely encourage people to have a stake in the country. I also agree with you about the state getting out of marriage entirely! It really doesn't seem possible given how intertwined everything is but yes in an ideal situation it would return to the religious/private sector. I do like the idea of legal benefits to heterosexual couples in order to promote nuclear families but as we see it is very easy for this to be taken advantage of. I'm very pro communities and I feel like giving extra status to those getting married and having children can be great for increasing community bonds.
[–]GratefulWifeandMamamarried 9 years1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
What you touched on about the female sphere not being in existence is what sprung out to me in this article.
If I could order society better, I would not tie up men's lives in the service of women as much as they are now. Realistically, the breadwinning role would still take up most of men's time and energy. But we could aim to free up as much time as possible for men to undertake a more public oriented role, alongside other men, designed to allow men to develop intellectually, spiritually and creatively, and to enjoy the esprit de corps, the fellowship, that comes from working alongside other men to contribute to the wider community and culture.
This to me is very important. Women and men are different and should spend time with our own genders to really fulfill our potential. Women's groups in my area tend to be young professionals or business oriented but I see value in that platform as a way to effect real (on a personal and larger scale level) change and create positivity. I recall you, Camille, may be in DAR and those are the types of work outside the house that I believe women should be spending time on. I personally am trying to get a group together for a womens book club. Not so civic but I'm excited to host a purely feminine space.
[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree it's so important!! This is exactly what I had in mind when I read that part of the post and I hope we can all talk more about this across the sub. So great that you're starting a book club, I want to join a local one myself. We tried to do a book club a few times here on RPW but no one ever participated haha keep me posted on how your club forming experience goes :)
[–]Waldorfmutti0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Freeing up time is what most women do right now!
[–]GratefulWifeandMamamarried 9 years0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Haha, it's true! Although some of the women I spend time with seem to wear their busy-ness like a badge but their lives seem always a mess. Almost as if the things they are spending time doing aren't fulfilling their needs and dreams. I am blessed to have simple needs ;)
[–]Waldorfmutti0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Maybe these women would benefit from academic input.
[–]GratefulWifeandMamamarried 9 years0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The two women I am thinking of both hold Master's degrees. I don't think it's a lack of education. I think it's a lack of self reflection and accountability.
[–]Waldorfmutti0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Ok, that sounds bad.
[–]Waldorfmutti1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link
Women voting was necessary. We Women are of equal worth and we too should have a voice! The more social minded Women are enabling democracy! They enable a opposition. Men are not without faults and Women are able to balance it out.
[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link
Both men and women have flaws, yes. I personally believe that men and women are equal in that God loves everyone and everyone has a chance to get into heaven, but in terms of actual value on earth I think everyone earns (or doesn't earn) that themselves based on who they are and what they do with their life. Everyone is different, everyone brings something unique to the table, we should recognise that and allow people to have the freedom to really thrive. I do not personally believe that voting is an essential right, given that it is our main method of deciding political decisions I think it should be treated more like a privilege and responsibility. The greater the number of votes available, the less power each vote has. You do not need to have different genders participating in the voting process to have a democracy. Any group of people can disagree.
Prior to first wave feminism women were able to make their voices heard and impact their community through means other than voting. There was more focus on the local community and women ran organisations that kept things operating smoothly. They also were able to influence larger conversations through joining activist groups as well as talking with the men in their lives. This created a dynamic that allowed women to have what is known as soft power, and men had "hard" power. Both groups were making an impact, just in different ways. This to me is true balance. Was every single woman or man able to do this to the same degree? No. But there is no reason that over time more women could have received access to organisations and/or formed their own. Things did not have to go the way they did.
[–]Waldorfmutti1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (25 children) | Copy Link
Would men vote in the interest of women? NO! Humans are selfish by nature. Soft power is largely an illusion. Show me where women managed to influence politic. I see each day how backwards societies who see women as nothing more then cattle influence a modern society. No woman is save, mass rapes get downplayed and hidden. Not a day goes by without muslim men raping and killing.
[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
European and American men absolutely made decisions while considering what was best for their family, community and country over the centuries. Viewing things in terms of men vs women is counter productive. Because humans are selfish by nature, systems that encourage and reward cooperation between the genders will lead to both sides using their strengths to contribute in positive ways. When monogamy is rewarded, and men get something of value from investing in their wives and children, they make choices that protect those in their care. When cultural norms promote respect between men and women, the majority of both genders abide by those standards.
Female soft power has been around since the beginning of civilisation. Not only have women been indirectly influencing the political and cultural development of their societies, they have been directly and actively involved, just not by voting. Protests, riots, rallies, salons, writing, managing farms and businesses, lobbying, petitioning, and running organisations were all common among women prior to the 20th century. Additionally women in Europe and America had church groups for both social activities and helping out the community.
The values of Muslims and several other cultures are indeed backwards, but their worldview is not what I am advocating. There are more ways to organise a society other than "barbaric + rapey" and "feminism".
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There are more ways to organise a society other than "barbaric + rapey" and "feminism".
Hahahaha yes!
[–]dailyqt0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
European and American men absolutely made decisions while considering what was best for their family, community and country over the centuries.
Meanwhile in North Carolina in 2017, a group of men just decided that revoking consent means nothing, therefore literally legalizing rape. I call bullshit. We absolutely need to have representatives for half of the human population, to keep this shit from continuing.
[–]Waldorfmutti0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
They are not just backwards, they are monstrous. The Quran is no peaceful book telling tales - it is a political manifesto. But there is no doubt that the west has benefitted greatly from women voting rights. It makes it necessary to focus on more topics, wich enables more parties to form. It makes democracy come alive in whole new ways.
Why are you acting like I'm a supporter of Islam? The West actually had a great solution to both its own barbarism and the evilness of Islam - Catholicism and many of the beliefs, norms, and practices we consider traditional today. An emphasis on democracy, feminism, and other leftist values is actually enabling Islam to wreak havoc on the west. The men have free reign in several European countries and authorities punish their own citizens for speaking out. People are so concerned with equality and acceptance that they are literally enabling their own destruction.
I don't share the same love of democracy as a system that you do so I don't see the value in making it "come alive in whole new ways". It's definitely up for debate if the new topics brought up specifically because of women voters have helped or hindered the US. New laws and policies concerning divorce, aid for single moms, domestic violence, the workplace, and more have had an immense impact on our country in such a short time, and it is overwhelmingly negative.
[–]JackGetsIt1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (19 children) | Copy Link
Would men vote in the interest of women?
Yes. They've done it pretty consistently. What was the female condition like before suffrage? Not too shabby. Women were largely considered closer to god then men were and they were taken care of. All humans are selfish is a gross over simplification of the human condition and even selfish men vote for female needs because men need women for a variety of reasons.
[–]dailyqt 1 points1 points1 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Meanwhile in North Carolina in 2017, a group of men just decided that revoking consent means nothing, therefore literally legalizing rape. Oh yeah, and having a uteris is a pre-existing condition now. I call bullshit. We absolutely need to have representatives for half of the human population, to keep this shit from continuing.
Also, the only reason that you say it wasn't "too shabby" is because you weren't there. Furthermore, while many women on this sub are okay with their sole purposes in life being to keep their men fed and fucked with no regards to their own happiness, most people don't think like that. Women didn't have the choice to not be like that before suffrage.
[–]JackGetsIt1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
you weren't there.
Neither were you.
men fed and fucked with no regards to their own happiness
That a gross oversimplification of this sub. Why are you shitting on what makes others happy? Happiness is tough to find in this world.
Women didn't have the choice to not be like that before suffrage.
We disagree on some core premises. So more discussion about this is just two people talking past each other. I support women voting in society but women were both creators and participators in the culture they lived in. They weren't victims they weren't enslaved by men through history they actively benefited, sculpted and enforced social norms.
[–]dailyqt0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
I never said that "the way of the red pill" is a bad way to be happy, but not everyone is happy living in that lifestyle.. And the options they had to benefit society were basically to either be married and die during childbirth or to, idk be school teachers? I just don't know how someone could be so ungrateful for something as incredible as women's suffrage.
[–]JackGetsIt3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
not everyone is happy living in that lifestyle..
Most of the sentiment I've seen from this sub is that RPW just wants to be considered another option. I don't see a lot of forcing RPW beliefs on people. I see an urge to simply be considered a viable alternative.
Nobodies trying to shove women back into a housewife role. It's all about not shaming women that chose that route. Being a good mom and running a good household is a noble profession. The third wave feminist movement shamed women that choose family life and also lied to a lot of women that not only would they be happier in profession they could also have kids and a family later in life. In practice this didn't pan out for MANY women and women are starting to wake up to all the propaganda and they are pissed off.
Women that want to take on white collar professions or multiple jobs shouldn't be lied to that men will be lined up for them when their ready to settle down at 35; and they shouldn't be lied to about healthy pregnancy likelihood. I'm not against women that make this choice; I have a lot of women in my life that are professionals and I respect them.
Another big problem we've had is that you can't force women to like certain professions. Men gravitate towards certain interests and women do as well. Boys don't like building things because dads knock dolls out of their hands. We are learning from evolutionary biology that men's and women brain structures are different and hormones and other factors influence us. This isn't a superiority inferiority thing it's just a differences thing. I think we need to be passionate if a man wants to be a nurse and women wants to be an engineer but I also think there's a line where we are forcing it and causing other problems.
I highly recommend this documentary series.
https://vimeo.com/19707588
It actually convinced the Nordic council to drop the Nordic Gender Institute.
Edit. If you have anything else you'd like to chat about feel free to PM :)
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
mods this user is repeatedly aggressive and seems to have no interest in RP ideas.
can we have a temp ban until she's read the sidebar material and has decided if this place suits her or not?
/u/Camille11325
/u/PhantomDream09
[–]Camille11325[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Thanks for alerting me to this, I've had some run ins with her but she seemed more open in those interactions vs what I'm seeing right now. I'm usually all about being patient with new girls and showing them new ideas and resources when they clearly have no clue, but she definitely seems more hostile than just misguided.
Thanks again <3
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
yeah i've gone back and forth with her trying to explain things nicely, but she's not really interested by the looks of it. thanks for responding so quickly :)
[–]Camille11325[S,M] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I'm not sure why you're all over the sub recently but you need to stop saying things that are factually untrue and/or against the purpose of this community. We have a wiki filled with information about what we're all about and you'll see that your claim that "many women on this sub are okay with their sole purposes in life being to keep their men fed and fucked with no regards to their own happiness" has no basis in reality. If you have any legitimate questions about the community, please submit a respectful post and we will flair it "Ask RPW".
As I said to /u/whitebunny87 I am usually interested in teaching new girls and encourage others to do so. But you don't seem interested in what this community has to offer. This is your first and only warning. Familiarise yourself with our sub or leave. The next hostile or rule breaking comment or post you make will result in a ban.
Okay, can you please show me which comments have actually broken any rules? So that I know what not to do?
[–]girlwithabikemid 30s, married 4, total 103 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
I don't disagree with you about the issues of women's suffrage specifically. But I see it (the article topic) as less of a legal issue and more of a world view issue.
Women are told "men and women are equal" full stop and the women can do anything men can. From there it becomes nearly impossible to comprehend the sacrifices that men make. I think it goes something like: - I am as capable as any man, - I have to go to work every day too - I make money too - I don't feel like these are sacrifices (because my brain is wired differently and it's not an imperative for me to work) it's just life - men are crying over nothing / looking for gratification they don't deserve (because I work too).
To my mind so much comes down to feminism telling us women that men's brains work the same as ours do. Then we have no choice but to force male behavior onto the female thought processes when trying to understand men, which obviously doesn't work.
I'm curious what laws (or political panderings) you see contributing to the disregard for male sacrifice?
[–]dashdotdottEarly 30s, Married, 8 years, 10 years total6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
Turtles are great
[–]girlwithabikemid 30s, married 4, total 102 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Right, women feel responsibility for children and men (I believe) feel responsibility for women (+ their children). The instinctual drive to care for men in that way (going to work) just isn't there for us. But maybe once kids are in the pictures it's easier to "get it".
[–]JackGetsIt1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
All very good points.
Divorce laws for sure. Laws that shelter/women in the workplace at the expense of men. Minimum wage laws/overtime laws. Laws put in place that handicap more qualified employees. Draft laws.
I'm not necessarily against all these but disregarding male sacrifice is kind of baked into the cake in society. In fact men themselves also disregard male sacrifice and promote laws that may hurt other men but benefit their own business or church group. So it's a complicated picture. So we have a lot of self exploration to do as a culture to fix all this. Step one is protection of free speech rights so that people aren't afraid to lose their jobs or be called a misogynist/racist/sexist if they hold conservative views or classical liberal views.
[–]girlwithabikemid 30s, married 4, total 101 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
I think I'm trying to wrap my head around it in a chicken-egg sort of way. If we were to magically get rid of these laws would we fall back into a more traditional pattern of respect for men. Or does change come first in the culture and then the laws either don't matter or are more easily swept away. Or are the laws and the culture just compounding - each making the other incrementally worse over time. A lot of what you and Camille were discussing about voting rights is fascinating but probably impractical to implement (IMO). So I think I'm coming at it trying to decide what is the most important aspect to target. Do we try to impact the culture around us or do we tackle the laws. What ends up being the best use of our (individual) resources.
[–]JackGetsIt4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
You are spot on with the chicken egg analogy. You can't really untangle the two. Laws inform culture and culture inform laws. I give the 51% edge to culture. If you can change culture you can build coalitions that change laws. The black civil rights movement largely originated from the culture of the black southern baptists and eventually forced local and federal law changes.
fascinating but probably impractical to implement
Yes. I also agree with this. The genie is out of the bottle. I'm a pragmatist first and foremost. So the question than becomes what can we focus on right now that would have the most positive effect to push our society towards more traditional healthy relationships between men and women and as a result happiness.
Do we try to impact the culture around us or do we tackle the laws. What ends up being the best use of our (individual) resources.
So here's my two part approach
one: we go at the schools hard and improve public education. I don't want all kids home schooled and I don't want kids overly sheltered like some of the fundamentalists are doing. What happens when you over shelter a child but live in Gomorrah? That's right you lose the child. They push back hard against their sheltered upbringing because modern culture is a powerful force. So I believe we need to take back the schools: more discipline, high standards, tracked schooling, intensive civic education, intensive critical thinking skills and logic fallacy training. Schools today are producing kids that can't read and write and this produces minds that have ZERO defense against modern propaganda and consumerism. Kids should come out of 8th grade with STRONG reading and writing skills and by 18 they should be fully ready for college or trade schools (and we should stop shaming people that go to trade schools as not smart enough for college). So that's part I.
TWO Men need to become the kings of their castles again. We need a culture movement around family units with male captains. Men need to feel shame and pain for leaving families and women need to see the reality of living without male leadership. There should be no financial assistance for people who divorce. The current financial system creates perverse incentives for women to raise children alone. Those need to be removed. We need to build cultural norms that shed light on male contributions. I'm not sure how we go about this. Church movements? Red Pill therapists? A return of social 'shame.'? I'd also like to see more pride in living a frugal life. A couple that lives with just male income which may be low should be praised and showered with support if they stay together and manage their lives by budgeting and working hard. These types of families should be the pride of american society. I'd love to see more encouragement of ownership and 'buy it for life' patterns of consumption. I'm totally a capitalist but we need to stop shaming two parent families who live in happy healthy poverty. Women who live like this are told they have a bad husband because he's didn't buy an 8 bedroom house and 5 cars for a 4 person family. Every depiction of low income families are ones living in filth and moral squalor. This is terrible. There are LOTS of low income families that live moral lives. That should be the new norm as the economy continues to squeeze the middle class. I'm not sure what to call this movement but we need men's and women's groups that share resources and support each other to live these lifestyles. I believe some parts of the libertarian community are starting to do this. The measure of a man should not be pec muscles and checkbook. It should be knowledge, decisiveness, wisdom, home maintenance and sticking with, managing and supporting a family unit. The healthy male female two parent family unit is the heart of western civilization.
Sorry for my long rant! This is a topic I'm passionate about.
[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
Really enjoying your contributions, this comment in particular has given me something to think about. Specifically the part about not shaming people who live in healthy poverty. I agree with you but never put words to it, I just know I've found myself wondering where all the respectable working class and proles went from before the 1960s. Sure they still exist but they aren't portrayed in most shows and movies and they definitely aren't shown as a realistic option for a happy life.
The measure of a man should not be pec muscles and checkbook. It should be knowledge, decisiveness, wisdom, home maintenance and sticking with, managing and supporting a family unit.
I think it should be all of it: strength, dominance, knowledge, wealth, etc. Every man should strive to excel in as many areas as he can, while of course specialising in his trade and passions. Physical strength and expression is integral to masculinity, as is amassing resources and wielding power. The best men know how to act in different situations to get what they want and we should encourage men to really explore and test themselves.
and by 18 they should be fully ready for college or trade schools (and we should stop shaming peole that go to trade schools as not good enough for college)
Yeah I think we need way less people in college, and more people in either trade schools or no higher ed at all, just straight to work where they can receive on the job education.
In addition to promoting a more positive view of respectable poor, I think there should be a more positive view of the successful. So many people are anti capitalist and anti success. I read this post the other day and agree with it 100%!
[–]JackGetsIt1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I've also enjoyed your contributions Camille. I enjoyed your writings when you were in the redpillwomen sub but didn't follow you and your cohort when you made the exodus because it was so swift and tactful! I had also taken a bit of a break from reddit at the time.
That 'dividual' blogger writes in a tone similar to my own. Kind of wandering around and jumping in and out of observation. I enjoyed this line.
Of course it does lead to equality of status, but in the sense of everybody equally resented.
This is definitely what we are smack dab in the middle of with western culture. I have deep deep fear about the next stage. Once you've torn down men's incentive to 'status' seek or you've given them cheap proxy's like video games and costume play western society comes grinding to a halt because no one will be there to do the work. You can see a glimpse into the future with the Japanese herbivore male culture. Vast tracks of Japanese men are becoming shut ins and voluntary incels. They are lost in anime and video games and women have also suffered because they are now chasing after a smaller and smaller group of eligible men which leads to a lot of female forlorness and anxiety. The Japanese economy and birth rate are seriously being affected as well. The decline of Testosterone is a factor as well. When you don't have daily challenges and goals men lose will and vigor and their testosterone falls and their women also intimately pick up on that and suffer alongside. Good caring women get in sync with their partners and live and die on the health and well being of their men.
I hope this is all fixable but it's probably going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
A bit unrelated but you seem like a person who likes philosophy and culture. There's a series on Netflix that I've been binge watching called 'Genius of the Modern World.' Which covers great philosophers. It starts with Marxs and they pedestalize him a bit much for my taste but then they do Nietzsche in episode two and it was really well done. Nietzsche seemed to predict a lot of the death of unifying morality we are seeing today. You might enjoy it! The recent Ben Shaprio speech at Berkeley is also a MUST watch for traditionalists. It was, dare I say it, inspiring. Sane voices are starting to peak through (and you are one of those! keep up the great writing in this sub!)...
[–]girlwithabikemid 30s, married 4, total 100 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There are so many interesting ideas in this thread. I walked away to think about it before commenting and I'm still thinking. Usually I have a lot more to say, but you've both laid everything out so well, I think I'd just be repeating and agreeing. Please both of you keep up the writing. Sharing information might be one of the strongest political statements to be made in this climate.
Also, I second the recommendation for Shapiro's Berkeley speech.
FYI: pressed send too soon and edited my post!
Harsh prison sentences for those monsters who abuse their spouses! Men that hurt their women are scum!
I agree that our society has a lack of respect for men but I don't really see how that has to do with women voting. To me, it seems like a cultural and economic issue, not an overtly legal and political matter, so I can't see what voting has to do with it. Would love to see your explanation!
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
It's true that lots of men make sacrifices for their families and don't always get the appreciation they deserve...that being said, I think that most good men don't really make a big fuss over their "sacrifices" and would probably cringe at that word. Plenty of women do martyr themselves and sacrifice themselves, usually with lots of melodrama and theatrics. But the men I admire the most do tough work without complaining...they often act as though it's a pleasure, not a sacrifice. I've always thought that was a hallmark of a great man, to be able to give of himself without feeling sorry for himself. Is that still a sacrifice? I don't know. We should all remember to thank the men in our lives but I'll bet most of those men would not want to be seen as "sacrificing" themselves.
[–]melb222 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Sylvia, I wrote the blog post and I agree in part with what you have written here. Men don't want or need a great deal of fuss made about what they do, nor is a well-adjusted man likely to go around feeling sorry for himself. Nonetheless, men do think they are making a sacrifice for their families and I'd like to try to explain why it's such an issue.
When young men reach a certain age they realise that the entry price for having a family is committing to a stable, well-earning job. This is not an easy thing for men to accept. Most men have an expansive mindset: they have a drive to want to do great things, to make a mark, to make a difference, to explore, to conquer etc. So the idea of spending 40 years in an office doing relatively unimportant things under the supervision of a boss is not an easy thing for a man to accept. What a man can cling to, in his mind, in accepting this fate, is the idea that in doing so he is keeping a family afloat and by doing this fulfilling a masculine drive to provide for and protect a family. It is this that gives a sense of importance, dignity and meaning to his daily grind at work.
Therefore, it is shocking for a man to hear, after decades of work, that his efforts don't even register with his wife as being something that counts, that it is dismissed abruptly as simply being something he is supposed to do. This response from his wife takes away the sense of life purpose he has constructed and lived by.
All a wife really needs to do is to give a very occasional nod to the importance of her husband in giving financial security and prosperity to his family through his efforts at work.
[–]Butter-Passing-Bot1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
what is my purpose?
Love this explanation!
[–]JackGetsIt0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Incredibly astute observations. You also write with a good economy of words and sense of purpose. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You have a new reader!
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That is a lovely explanation, thank you! I think most of us here are pretty good about showing appreciation but it's nice to have such a clear explanation of why that appreciation is important.
I think it's important that in public conversation the reality of male sacrifice can be acknowledged by both genders. To me, this is different than every man making a big deal about all of the work he does as an individual and expecting his woman to do the same at all times. When we can't appreciate what men do as a whole and in an abstract sense, it's a problem. The struggles that women in general go through are discussed seriously on a national level and women receive praise in all directions for their legitimate (and often non legitimate) struggles.
I agree that great men don't feel sorry for themselves, but that doesn't mean they're going to be satisfied with little to no recognition. Respect is so important to men and many are also interested in gaining power and/or status. If the struggle they go through does not yield the return they want, it is demoralising, even to the best of men.
There is a way for women to support and show appreciation to her husband without making a big fuss, and I think we can do the same as a country too!
[–]Rivkariver2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I think the mainstream is a lost cause, until it hits rock bottom and hopefully wakes up. Or until the naturally succession of hating men and reproduction makes them destroy themselves. You can't say a single thing that suggests men are strong or good in any way. I said that push-ups are easier for men than women, to make an acquaintance feel better about finding push-ups hard. She looked crushed, like she saw me kick a helpless kitten. It's a biological fact. I don't want to feel like a monster for stating a fact, but there it is.
Agreed it doesn't seem like things will just turn around on their own.
I don't want to feel like a monster for stating a fact, but there it is.
So terrible that this is the norm!
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