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Camille11325
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
This is such an interesting set of articles, thanks! I also think that the definition of feminine has become awfully narrow in recent years. In the past -- judging by my grandmothers and their stories -- women could take pride in their homes AND in their work, without feeling like they had to prove themselves to be absolutely perfect in either realm. Both my grandmother and great grandmother were schoolteachers who still raised kids and kept house. But they did it without this frantic, anxious energy that women have now (I'm including myself! I fret so much about finding balance...I doubt my grandmother ever used the word balance). What was the difference? What did our grandmothers do differently? They certainly had clean homes and good dinners. I look around and see that, at least among the women I know, the stay at home moms seem to feel just as anxious as the working moms. Everyone wants to be perfect, everyone is scared they made the wrong choice. Everyone seems to feel so much pressure all the time!
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I think part of the reason for this is also because now people live above their means and have way more access to (and insight into) the trappings of wealth. Homes have literally gotten larger, middle class families didn't used to take vacations on airplanes across the country, or send their kids to private college, or own two cars, or enroll their kids in dance/soccer/hockey/lacrosse/tutoring.
People were financially more stable 60 years ago because they lived within their means (it was very difficult to get credit), but they also didn't encounter higher lifestyles much, so their expectations were way more reasonable. Sure, there was the occasional celebrity magazine featuring a layout of some big shot's hollywood home, but people read those for entertainment and understood that all those things were "just for rich people". Now most lower class families have middle class expectations, middle class people have upper middle class expectations, and upper middle class people have wealthy expectations. On top of all that "stuff" add true love, a fulfilling career that you'd do for free, a huge circle of friends that you've known your whole life, amazing travel experiences, kids who are above average intelligence and have at least one other talent, the list goes on and on and on.
I think all of this translates to less gratitude, more comparisons, and a generally unrealistic idea of what life is like. At the same time, it's not sustainable, so it leads to this viscous cycle where people end up having less of what matters (not owning their homes, unstable relationships, debt, etc.).
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I just saw this! I think you're right. Our expectations of success and personal happiness are so high...I also think we have so many more choices than people did a few generations ago, and choices can lead to anxiety.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes! The sheer number of options seems to have catapulted some people into thinking they have to do as much as possible. I call it the cult of busyness.
[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
You're welcome! I feel like the definition of femininity has narrowed as time has gone on because people see being female as one of many qualities instead of an overarching category that contains most of the other qualities. No idea if that makes sense at all so let me know if I need to clarify. Basically we think of a lot of characteristics as universal human traits now instead of masculine and feminine traits. Which results in the mistaken idea that femininity is separate from all other personality traits, instead of an underlying influence that informs your entire personality and character.
I think the pressure and anxiety that a lot of people feel today is from lack of real life social interaction and feedback. And a general lack of community that would give a sense of belonging and a baseline. There is a lot of discussion on this subject on this site, just look at the "cocooning" tag!
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Oh yes, I think that's a great point about how lack of community leads to a sense of pressure and unrealistic expectations! I'miss really interested in your point about how people no longer see femininity as an overarching quality...I think I understand what you're saying but I'd love to read more about this! Thanks for the link too, I'll dive into that.
[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Let me think more about what I mean by the femininity thing and search for related articles and essays. I'll make a post on the sub when there's something people can actually discuss :) Hope you enjoy the blog it's one of my favs, don't read it at work though!
[–]TotesMessenger1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
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[–]blushinglillyMarried 5 ys, Early 30s6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I think the article has some great points.
I think part of the problem is that expectations seem to rise all the time. I'm getting towards my mid 30s now (oldish but not that old) and I've even seen in that time what people believe they need in order to be happy seems to have risen fairly dramatically. Of course it's impossible to keep up with all that and then people start to feel depressed or detached.
I was talking to my Grandma the other day about our lifestyles and she said that if her mother could see her now, with a washing machine, dryer and plentiful food, she would assume that she was a princess! She feels very grateful for all those things and even though she's had them for many decades, she still feels grateful for them and they bring her joy.
Nowadays a safe comfortable home with modern conveniences isn't considered enough, even though there are many people around the globe who would love that. Now you have to have the big house with the designer furniture and paintwork or you are not keeping up with the Joneses.
Reading this article made me see the recent fashion for the Danish concept of 'Hygge' in a new light. I'm thick so this sort of thing takes me a while, but it's just hit me that 'hygge' is just basic old fashioned domesticity given a fashionable middle class label. It's a way of admitting that people want an old fashioned home even if they won't admit it.
I think another reason that we won't admit is that careers just aren't as valuable and exciting as many people claim they are. There are some people who are able to make their career and their vocation one and the same thing. They are the lucky ones. Most of us however don't have a vocation or if we do it's not one we can make a living out of, most of us work for the money alone. So people spend thousands going to Uni for an education for a career that ultimately doesn't really bring them the satisfaction that they hoped for.
I think the part in the article about not being responsible for controlling your emotions is extremely insightful. I've seen many people go down this road, men and women, and goodness knows I do sometimes. Yet in many ways this is seen as being 'authentic' or even brave. Recently I've known a few women in our wider circle destroy their marriages because 'feels' and it's not turned out well for them, it's tragic to witness.
[–]Camille11325[S] 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I've never heard of Hygge before so thanks for introducing me to a new concept :) I agree with you the standards and expectations of the everyday American have risen dramatically when it comes to lifestyle and what is considered an essential/basic. In addition to technological advances, the flood of women into the modern work environment is definitely related since has given both individuals and families more to spend.
This is so true and it's especially true for women. I shared an essay by GK Chesterton a while ago called "The Emancipation of Domesticity" that was about women being generalists not specialists. I think this is part of the reason most women don't really thrive in the modern workplace especially in traditionally male positions. That environment just isn't structured for female nature, which of course is great for business, but bad for personal happiness.
[–]blushinglillyMarried 5 ys, Early 30s3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I've never heard of Hygge before so thanks for introducing me to a new concept :)
It's all the rage over here at the moment, you can buy books on how to achieve Hygge and there have been debates in our papers about what it actually means.
Thank you for linking to the article again, I think I might have missed that the first time around so I'll give it a read.
[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No problem, let me know what you think of his ideas, it really is a beautiful essay!
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Great article. The takeaway message for me was that in order to be happy, women and men must: a) understand their nature, and b) live up to and temper this nature where necessary.
I think a lot of the mental health issues we're seeing in women today are a result of them either knowingly or unknowingly rejecting their feminine nature and drives. Society today is largely of the opinion that feminine = weak and is a state that we should all avoid, it's no wonder women are lost and confused.
Milo makes a similar point here and argues that women forcing themselves into male identities is ruining us psychologically.
I believe that the same goes for men. This whole denial of gender lines may be helpful for the few outliers who genuinely fall into some weird hormonal limbo, but for the rest of us, it's just chaos.
[–]Camille11325[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So glad you liked it! I agree with your takeaways, it makes sense that a realistic understanding of our strengths, weaknesses, and tendencies, would lead to a greater sense of self acceptance and happiness. When women delude themselves into thinking that sex/gender has no relevance, they are setting themselves up for disappointment one way or another. And don't get me started on the decline of men! That should be it's own post and discussion lol Thanks for linking to Milo, he always has great insights!
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Great article! I've been pondering this concept for a little while now - I really think the downward trend in overall mental health in our society in general has to do with feminism's influence. Masculinity and femininity are both vilified; when you fight your own nature, of course you're going to be miserable.
[–]Camille11325[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Agreed completely! Although you have to wonder - is it legitimately depression if people are having an expected response to being at odds with their nature and living an unfulfilling life? Isn't being sad and disliking yourself the well adjusted response? Can we really call that a mental illness?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You make a very good point. However, I think the fact that it's an undesirable response to the mainstream norm classes it as mental illness; it's a symptom of a greater ill in society overall.
Yeah I get that it's classified as a mental illness based on today's standards but since the response is actually the expected human response to the situation, I feel like it's not an illness at all. There aren't chemical imbalances or other tangible issues. Similarly, a lot of young men are diagnosed with ADD and ADHD when really they are just young boys full of energy, with different interests and drives. They can't function in a feminized school system. Basically any deviation from the mainstream norm is labeled as an illness to reinforce the status quo.
I thought this was a great exploration of some of the potential reasons many women today report feeling depressed. Another great article on the same subject can be found here. Both posts point out the very real consequences that feminism has on the way women relate to themselves and the world. Feel free to disregard any religious and moral messages within the posts, and know that I have not taken a good look at the sites these articles are on so we're not endorsing them or anything as a sub. Let's just focus on the things that do fall in line with RPW and discuss both the ideas presented and your own theories about female depression.
P.S. I've shared this post before but I think that the "cocooning" phase we are in as a culture has also lead to the rise in depression.
[–]TempestTcup 3 points3 points3 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I think that the "cocooning" phase we are in as a culture has also lead to the rise in depression.
That article is interesting in that it roughly follows the observations made in Strauss and Howe's Generational Theory. I have read extensively about their theory, and The Forth Turning, and I believe that we are in the climax year of the current crisis or fourth turning.
During more outgoing times like the Romantic-Gothic period before the Victorians, the Jazz Age before the mid-century, and the New Wave Age before the current period, it's hard to find people who have a generalized and gnawing self-doubt, unsure of who they are across most dimensions of human identity.
These are all Nomad generational archetypes, of which I am happy to be a member; Millennials were raised in a drastically different manner, much like your second link explains. I believe that the election of Trump has sent the Millennials past the point of no return, and 2016 is the climax year issuing in the crisis to come (fourth turning), and the following High (first turning) of the next cycle.
This [The First Turning] is a post-Crisis era when institutions are strong and individualism is weak. Society is confident about where it wants to go collectively, though those outside the majoritarian center often feel stifled by the conformity.
I was wondering if the author of the link was familiar with Strauss and Howe's work, but a quick search tells me that the author has never written about them or their Generational Theory. I'm always amazed when two very different people come up with roughly the same observations separately!
I always love when you mention Strauss and Howe's Generational Theory. The first time I read it my mind was blown and it's impossible to look at current events without thinking about their ideas. The cocooning vs social theory definitely falls in line with the Four Turnings concept, and it is incredible watching my generation literally fall apart right now. I hope we can have more discussions about both these ideas on the sub, it is such an interesting lens to view our culture through.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
I think this series is particularly interesting, it's a bit long but worth the read. There is some BP stuff in it, but the takeaway is pretty clearly RP if you ask me. It's all about these hyper ambitious women and how most of them, after a few years in the workforce, either scale back or opt out completely, and how those who try to "have it all" are the most unhappy of all the groups.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/12/the-ambition-interviews-a-table-of-contents/510848/
I think more than anything this little study shows how fraught feminist women feel about literally every decision they make. It's no wonder they're unhappy, they view their entire lives and everything they do as a political statement in the context of some larger structure. They feel guilty for wanting what they want. It honestly sounds exhausting.
Thank you I will give this a read!
I think this also applies beyond women. People are just more disconnected and depressed in general, but it tends to happen to women on a large basis. I believe this is because there is less fulfilment, happiness normally gained by non material things such as family and children. This modern liberal society pushes people to be 'individuals', women are being forced out of the home, and they are now more stressed than ever. Children are being raised by surrogates and in the end people cling to money even more to buy things so women are trapped at work. More tax for the government and the big businesses. Less time at home and with family. More attachment to materialism and superficial careers with women especially. A perfect recipe for isolation and depression.
[–][deleted] 1 points1 points1 points 7 years ago | Copy Link
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[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I would be hesitant to take anything from Huffington Post seriously, but having seen somewhat the opposite as a result of feminism, I'm curious now. Can you link the source article for that picture?
[–][deleted] 3 points3 points3 points 7 years ago | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Thank you for linking these so quickly - I'll give them a read after dinner tonight, I'm leaving the office in just a couple of minutes.
Glad you enjoyed it :) The other posts I linked in my comment to this post have more info on the subject if you are interested!
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