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Camille11325
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
MRA to me always seemed remarkably like feminists. I don't admire either group, they're all whiners and complainers.
[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link
I thought he brought up a lot of great points about MRAs. I personally don't like to associate myself with them because of the reasons he states (although I care a lot more about freedom in addition to civilisation) but I also am pro patriarchy and that is inherently going to place more responsibility on men. To be clear I am on the same page w/ MRAs when it comes to legitimate injustices such as the gripes with child support and divorce, or false rape accusations. And I am extremely concerned about male suicide.
I don't think however that women should be involved in the military in almost any capacity, or that anything should be done to change the fact that men are working the most dangerous jobs. It is important that people recognise their sacrifices and risks but I believe men are uniquely suited for those tasks so I can't really support their attempts to get sympathy and equality. I also don't care about circumcision, if anything I am pro circumcision, but what I really hate is how they compare male circumcision to FGM as if they were on the same level in any way!
Edit: If you are fixating on the men's rights part this is for you (from a PM I sent to a concerned redditor)
Red Pill thought is not collectivist, it is not about identity politics, and it is not part of the oppression olympics. In contrast MRAs are all three. They also advocate for equality whereas RP is about gender differences, patriarchal civilisation, and legitimate masculinity. The purpose of the article isn't about men's rights themselves. It is about being critical of a movement that claims to be a voice for men when really it advocates a lot of things that would be detrimental to civilisation. At Red Pill Wives we are interested in having conversations about all sorts of ideas, and learning through conversation and reflection. You do not have to be an MRA to understand that there are injustices. And, there are so many issues with both the underlying principles and the way that MRAs execute their ideas, that I don't think you can be RP and an MRA at the same time.
Red Pill thought is not collectivist, it is not about identity politics, and it is not part of the oppression olympics. In contrast MRAs are all three. They also advocate for equality whereas RP is about gender differences, patriarchal civilisation, and legitimate masculinity. The purpose of the article isn't about men's rights themselves. It is about being critical of a movement that claims to be a voice for men when really it advocates a lot of things that would be detrimental to civilisation.
At Red Pill Wives we are interested in having conversations about all sorts of ideas, and learning through conversation and reflection. You do not have to be an MRA to understand that there are injustices. And, there are so many issues with both the underlying principles and the way that MRAs execute their ideas, that I don't think you can be RP and an MRA at the same time.
[–]JackGetsIt 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
If you get a chance this is a very informative and fact based lecture about circumcision. If you're still for it after watching then I respect that you've at least informed yourself.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Thank you for sharing this! I don't think anything will be able to change my mind or the mind of anyone else who was raised in a culture that practises circumcision but I understand why many oppose it. I expanded on my position here, not sure if you saw. I definitely respect you and others' right to try to change people's minds though :)
[–]JackGetsIt 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I did read your other response. Thank you for referencing it.
In reference to the rest of your original comment I do agree with your patriarchy and military stance. I just don't understand how women in feminist movements can expect men to provide resources, risk taking, national defense and not form some type of patriarchy to implement it. That being said the term 'patriarchy' implies some deep rooted conspiracy. I have yet to receive my patriarchy welcoming paperwork that informs me how to oppress women. If a patriarchy does exist it's really at the service of women.
I myself was pro circumcision for a long time. I also wouldn't support a complete ban because I do concede the religious angle. However the health angle is not backed up by good science and the doctors organizations should not encourage it.
[–]tintedlipbalm 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Out of curiosity, why are you pro circumcision?
I'll comment more after I read the article.
[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I don't really care one way or the other about any one individuals personal stance on it, but I definitely don't think it should be illegal. It is a traditional part of Jewish and Christian culture and I don't think their right to express their faith should be taken away. If parents don't want to have it done then that is perfectly fine, I don't think anyone should be forced at all. If there is a dispute I feel like the father should make the final call, as the head of the household. Like I said what really bothers me about the whole thing is comparing it to FGM, anyone who does that loses all credibility in my eyes.
[–]tintedlipbalm 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I agree it shouldn't be illegal. At best, I would like the practice to be done on consenting adults only, just because babies can't consent. But I wouldn't go as far as making a law and charging parents that decide on following this tradition. Just more awareness and informed decisions.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I am also all for awareness and making informed decisions. In this instance people should have the right to choose, even if they are opting out of the tradition.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
yeah someone who has family members still live in a country where FGM is widely discouraged but still practiced in some areas, it really grates me when people compare the two. they're insane.
[–]tintedlipbalm 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Great points all around.
Personally, I came to know the red pill from MRAs. If it wasn't for the youtube side of the MRM (starting with Feminism and the Disposable Male by Karen Straughan) I wouldn't have shifted my views in the way that allowed me to embrace RPW when I first encountered it. So in that sense I thank them. They were the first opposition to mainstream feminism I came to know.
That said, even then I noticed many problems with the movement. Like many people have noticed, they are extremely like feminists. The young ones are usually bottom of the barrel men (no surprise there - people who complain more about the game are usually the ones losing it) who are both clinging to ideology to avoid conforming and trying to artificially change the system. The older ones are some really sad cases, men who have been disenfranchised by the system, abused by women, frivorced and tore apart from their children, all real tragedies, and they do have a point and are usually the part of the MRM that makes you sympathetic to them and the problems of men today. It really would take a cold-hearted person to deny that this human suffering is happening.
However in general terms, I agree with what Camille said, a lot of the ways in which they strive for egalitarianism don't work with my worldview. And in many ways I see that they are blind to male realities because they don't find it in themselves (for example, all those men who insist males aren't violent - not all males are, but aggression is a trait distinctly found in males), so it's like part of the MRM understands evolutionary psychology (Straughan for example), but then another part (the lobbying part) denies it and pushes an unrealistic egalitarianism.
Furthermore, the main reason I think it won't succeed like they want is because of how society works. The males in the movement are non charismatic leaders. Most likely, some of it will integrate in the mainstream in some way (As an example, the CDC rape statistics. Just last season of Unbreakeable Kimmy Schmidt referred to it. Also, we'll have to see the impact of the Red Pill documentary), so at best it will make some people think twice and become more center in their views, but it won't impact the jobs and roles that much.
[–]throwaway_101881 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
Bit of a rant coming (feel free to skip if you have no time). His points about MRAs are largely spot-on, but he ruins it with his defense of conservatism as an alternative. He claims:
[conservatism] actually has a future and does care about many of the issues MRAs do.
News flash: conservatives have done absolutely nothing for men's rights throughout the last 50 years. In fact, conservatives have harmed men's rights almost as much as liberals - they've collectively told men to "man up" while refusing to place any obligations on women for fear of not being PC. They want to crack down on "deadbeat dads" and impose alimony because "family values", but never say a word about the women who frivorce or the lawyers who profit off state-enforced slavery. They constantly go on about how men collectively aren't being masculine (which is true), but when's the last time you heard a mainstream (read: not a hardcore Christian) conservative advocate traditional gender roles for women like wifely obedience, SAHMs, or anything of the sort? Yeah, me neither. At the same time, conservatives quietly passed anti-male laws like VAWA and the Campus Safety Act.
And all this while ceding all moral authority to the left (e.g. "Liberals are the REAL sexists!", "I respect and worship women, and am all for female CEOs!^Please ^don't ^call ^me ^a ^misogynist", etc.) On TRP, they have a concept called "frame", which is essentially the power to define the terms and values of the discussion. Conservatives lost frame 50 or so years ago (i.e. if progressivism is a fat feminist Tumblr harridan, conservatism is the supplicating beta male who will do anything to please her, even if it infringes on his values or dignity). What we're seeing now is the result of 50 years of failed conservatism (some call it "cuckservatism", a crass but highly accurate descriptor).
He lists a bunch of men's rights issues and claims conservatives are addressing them. No they aren't. That whole paragraph is 100% false. Conservatives support giving custody and tons of child support to the mother (because men need to "man up"), Christian conservatives support circumcision, and I've never seen a conservative address the "young men are less educated" issues with any response other than "man up." Arguably, liberals actually do a better job addressing some MRA issues than conservatives.
Now, a truly "uncucked" conservatism that enforced feminine roles for women along with masculine ones for men, in the name of an orderly society, would be something I could get behind. I hope such a movement will take rise in the next few decades sometime. But the current conservative movement that lets the left redefine masculinity through a feminist lens, pushes that interpretation on men, and lets women do whatever the hell they want is actually more repulsive to me than MRA-style egalitarianism.
The whole thing is exactly the same as when feminists tell MRAs: "We already solve those issues - you have no reason to exist." This guy is saying exactly the same thing, but with a different group. For someone who hates identity politics, he sure is acting very tribalistic about conservatism.
I agree with this completely! To be honest I was assuming he meant alt right conservatives not "cuckservatives" but you are so right about the official republican/conservative movement in America. They do not have the best interest of men in mind! Thank you so much for taking the time to right all of this :)
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[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points4 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]JackGetsIt 5 points6 points7 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]JackGetsIt 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]tintedlipbalm 2 points3 points4 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points4 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]tintedlipbalm 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]tintedlipbalm 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]throwaway_101881 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link