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Camille11325
[–]Zselda5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link
Some good things here but the concept that women cannot grow in femininity and beauty through pain is problematic. Plenty of women go through natural childbirth and become beautiful nature feminine mothers. They lose parents and relatives, and grow through it and still have faith, hope, and love for others. I think the author needs to more carefully explicate here. If a woman responds to pain with bitterness and cynicism, it causes issues. But pain is a natural part of life. A woman can still be feminine and beautiful if she has suffered.
Edit: I would even suggest that to suffer gracefully is to be a better woman, part of becoming more feminine and beautiful. After all one of our central functions is childbirth and the sacrifice of raising them, and putting self aside for a man. The article got lost in a philosophical stratosphere without real life examples. It's dangerously close to implying a woman who is a spoiled princess is superior because she's been protected from the roughness of life.
Edit: general comments like "women do not become better women with pain" are where I take issue. And the comment towards the end about how women must grow with love and not pain. Any true love requires pain and sacrifice so it is missing the mark.
There's a comment in the article about Norse women having been forced into battle in the past but still remaining feminine. It's feminist ideology and learned anger and hate that makes women hardened and callous, not necessarily being forced into a masculine world.
[–]tintedlipbalm4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
This is a very good point I had not taken into account at first. I think it's a case of male solipsisim. The author is talking from a perspective of male pain alone.
You reminded me of my mother and the pain she has gone through with some losses, and her growth from it has been dignified and feminine.
I do however think that a more constant exposure to the pain related to male situations could eventually lead to a woman to become rugged to cope, which was his original point.
[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It isn't male solipsism to say that women who have to deal with the type of pain and challenges that men normally deal with end up less feminine and worse overall. The pain of losing a family member has nothing to do with his point.
[–]tintedlipbalm2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You're right. I was meaning it would be male solipsisim if he used 'male pain' to mean 'all pain', but I didn't disagree with the point that male pain would lead to women becoming rugged (the original point). I must also clarify that I think even female pain can make women react this way and mean overall a loss of youth which is detrimental to her attractiveness in that sense.
[–]Zselda4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
Beautiful blessing you have in your mother's example of handling life.
I think the general idea that women constantly exposed to typically male roles like CEO or military general, and also denying fertility and feminine nature, will wear them down and cause them to harden is true. The article just got solipsistic as you said. The bigger issue is when women respond in a masculine way to pain. Becoming a Byronic hero like Mr. Rochester doesn't look nearly as hot on a woman. But the author got a little over excited about how men grow in value as they age and saying women were destined to become vengeful sea-witch hags as they age. The problem came when he started saying women become that way through any and all pain and loss. We don't all have to be a wicked stepmother if we choose not to.
[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
The article was not solipsistic for the arguments that were made. Yes men do age better as a whole, and they do become more masculine and better men through struggle and sacrifice. Most women do not make the choice that you are assuming is so obvious and natural. They are quick to become jaded and miserable when things don't go well for them. You are the one being solipsistic and exaggerating here. He did not paint women in a flattering light but that doesn't mean that he is wrong.
[–]Zselda4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Nowhere did I say the choice is obvious and natural, but I wanted to point it out as a choice, one that many come to realize as one of life's main lessons. I know women who have become jaded and not learned, but far too many who have stayed beautiful and feminine to believe that bitter misery is the default.
[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
This is exactly what I mean by your solipsism; you are using your individual experience to reject a generalisation. How you change in response to the consequences of your decisions is a choice, but many women do not even make a conscious decision to be a certain way they just react. Others choose to be miserable or mean. Pointing out that it is a choice doesn't disprove his statements about an observable and worrisome trend.
[–]Zselda5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It isn't solipsistic to refer to the hundreds of women I've met in my life as there is no study out there proving who and who isn't bitter and cynical. I can see we don't agree about everything in the article. Perhaps we are surrounded by different groups.
[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I am not surrounded by women anything like the article describes thankfully. Your individual perspective does not negate the generalisations that are being made in the article. Pain and suffering do not make women more feminine, even if they do not end up making them more masculine. Your examples of deaths, childbirth, etc. are irrelevant to the argument that the author is actually making.
[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
If a woman responds to pain with bitterness and cynicism, it causes issues.
This is his entire point. Most women do end up becoming jaded, bitter, bitchy, closed off, and worse from the lifestyles and choices that are promoted today. His argument is not that women who go through trials that women normally face are worse off afterwards. He is specifically saying that a woman attempting to live a man's life in any way (promiscuity, being career obsessed, etc) will not grow into a better woman in the same way that a man who faces the same types of challenges would improve and become more masculine. Natural child birth is painful but it does not detract from femininity.
It's dangerously close to implying a woman who is a spoiled princess is superior because she's been protected from the roughness of life.
No he is saying that women who are shielded from the harsh realities that men have to deal with retain an emotional innocence that is attractive and endearing. Your fixation on physical pain is skewing your perspective on what he is actually arguing.
[–]Zselda3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
I see your point and generally agree but in no way was I fixating on physical pain; I also mentioned death of loved ones and putting aside the self to serve others, could have written more about tragedy and so forth but didn't want comment to get too long. And the way he wrote the article it made sweeping statements about women going through any pain at all, so that's what I was addressing.
Again those things you listed are all things that women normally go through. And they do chip away at the emotional innocence of a woman and a lot of other positive feminine characteristics. You do not become more feminine by dealing with the pain of a loved one dying. You may gain traits that are beneficial but that has nothing to do with the point the author is making.
When you add traditionally male challenges to what women already go through, the results can be terrible, which we see today. There were generalisations but they tied in to the overarching argument about the way feminine traits diminish and bad masculine traits emerge based on the life choices that a woman may make. Pain, struggle, and challenges make men more masculine and they make them better men. They do not make women more feminine.
[–][deleted] 5 points5 points5 points 7 years ago | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]BeautifulSpaceCadet 2 points2 points2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's like a self-preservation strategy with a high cost. You preserve yourself, but you have no self left to offer anybody. Being a hardened bitch is like Voldemort living off of unicorn's blood lmfao.
[–]Littleknownfacts2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Beautiful article. Rereading all these old posts is bringing me back to basics. Great place to start for freshmen coming in.
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[–]Zselda5 points6 points7 points (13 children) | Copy Link
[–]tintedlipbalm4 points5 points6 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]tintedlipbalm2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Zselda4 points5 points6 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points4 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]Zselda4 points5 points6 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points4 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Zselda5 points6 points7 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points4 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Zselda3 points4 points5 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 5 points5 points5 points | Copy Link
[–]BeautifulSpaceCadet 2 points2 points2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Littleknownfacts2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link