The most unattractive trait of all: trying to attract a woman

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Archwinger
October 22, 2014
755 upvotes
TheRedPill

There’s a post today about a very pathetic man. A man who went above and beyond to try to woo a woman. The specifics don’t matter, but since the post was strongly upvoted around here and clearly resonated with a few people, I’ll expound a little bit: Some jerk-off loser got dumped and created an overwrought romantic website to try to get his ex back. Naturally, the entire female internet community pissed all over him and mocked his efforts.

Surely, some women at least recognized and appreciated his effort, but figured that his ex just wasn’t into him, or maybe he just wasn’t their type, right? I mean, any man who makes that kind of effort to woo a woman is worth something, to someone, right? Wrong. Women everywhere pissed all over him. They called him a loser.

These facts don’t matter. You could replace this idiot with any penis-owner, replace his website with any romantic gesture large or small, and replace his ex girlfriend with any female anywhere in the world, and the response of women-at-large would be the same. Pay attention to this part: if you are attempting to romance a woman, you’re a pathetic loser. This isn't just what The Red Pill thinks. It's what women think.

It makes no sense, right? I mean, don’t women want romance? Actually, it makes perfect sense. Let’s explore the reasons why, viewing the universe through the eyes of women:

If you do something with the intention of making a woman like you that’s manipulation in their eyes. Note the italics – to make a woman like you. When you're trying to make her like you, you’re not really romantic, you’re not really nice, you’re just creepy. It doesn’t matter if you’re actually nice, if you’re actually genuine, if you’re actually romantic, and that you weren’t trying to be manipulative at all. If you’re doing something that seems like you’re trying to make a girl like you, you’re a creep. Because trying to win a girl’s affections with your behavior is trying to circumvent nature. You’re trying to turn something thousands upon thousands of years old, inscribed into our genetic code, into a transaction. You’re trying to buy sex or a relationship with romantic gestures and niceness. Women hate that, because if you could influence their emotional state like that, you’d be taking their power away. You don’t choose whether she likes you. She does. And any attempt to influence her decision is subversive and creepy. You’re supposed to “be yourself” and maybe, if you’re really lucky, she’ll pick you if she finds herself naturally attracted to you. Trying to convince her to pick you automatically takes you out of the running, loser. Because trying to convince a woman to want you is what losers who can’t get women the real way do.

The way to make a girl like you is to do the exact opposite. Look like you’re not trying to win her over. Do your own shit, and blow her off to do it. Be too busy for her. Be dismissive of her. Do shit that improves you and benefits your own life. Shit that makes you a better man, who's attractive to women, without actually trying to attract women. Because remember: actually trying to attract women is creepy. It’s manipulative.

Girls don’t even appreciate that you’re trying. The very fact that you are making any effort at all to attract a woman instead of just doing your own shit is controlling. You are trying to control a woman’s emotional state by acting in a manner intended to influence her. They hate that.

That’s why gaming women and PUA tactics and becoming a “Red Pill” man work incredibly well in the real world, but women who read about all of this on the internet hate the hell out of it and call it creepy, rapey, manipulative, and swear that it would never work on a smart woman. Because when they read about game on paper, it’s an action you’re taking to try to attract women. That’s creepy and could never possibly work, because trying to attract women is manipulative and automatically fails. It disgusts them to read about it and they couldn’t possibly be less attracted after reading that text. When they experience an evil Red Pill man in the real world, however, he just seems like an attractive guy who’s different from all of the other creeps who are trying too hard. A confident man who has things going on and doesn’t really care if she fucks him or not. He's totally different from all of those pathetic losers trying to buy sex from her with kindness, complements, and drinks. I guess webpages, too.

Gentlemen: Stop trying to attract women and focus entirely on yourself. I know it seems counter-intuitive. I know some guys around here worry that if they just do their own shit, no woman will ever notice them and they’ll never get laid again. If that’s the case, you’re doing the wrong shit. Quit playing video games and eating Oreos in your mom’s basement while jerking off to porn every day, and start working out, eating right, excelling professionally, and learning skills. It’s hard work, and far less pleasurable than just screwing around all day, but you get a reward. Not women, a real reward. You get to feel like a badass every single day of your life. You get to wake up excited every day, full of energy. You get to love your life, which is far more rewarding than loving a woman. And by the way, women fuck guys like that without them having to do much more than just walking up and saying hi – your wives and girlfriends are fucking guys like that right now.


Post Information
Title The most unattractive trait of all: trying to attract a woman
Author Archwinger
Upvotes 755
Comments 159
Date 22 October 2014 09:23 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/23428
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2k16yl/the_most_unattractive_trait_of_all_trying_to/
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Alright who is downvoting this shit? If you have something constructive to add on why


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Comments

[–][deleted] 109 points109 points | Copy

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[–][deleted] 17 points17 points | Copy

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[–]1AreYouAware_83 points84 points  (11 children) | Copy

This is well covered by Law 30 in the 48 Laws of Power. "Make your accomplishments look effortless."

If you appear to be naturally amazing without expending any effort, then to any onlooker you appear to be like a god. You appear to have unlimited potential, and that only a fool would dare test your limits (or pass up the opportunities you present them). Once the effort involved in your gesture become apparent, you look weak. You look like just another guy, and that anyone could do what you just did. The magic fades.

This applies not just to women, but to every aspect of life.

[–]nihilistic_apathic3 points4 points  (9 children) | Copy

Great book. Have you read his

[–]nihilistic_apathic8 points9 points  (8 children) | Copy

other book. The law of seduction?

[–]ThreadPill14 points15 points  (2 children) | Copy

It's Art of Seduction. And in my opinion it's not as good or applicable, but still interesting.

[–]hairaware0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I find the problem with books like these is they make you think too much. Concerning myself with all this information has only made me worse. When you are naturally able to talk to people or make friends many of these books are irrelevant and in fact detrimental.

[–]KSmittens0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I feel the same way. It seems better to just check in every now and then to see if people have posted some good tips or something that motivates you. When I read too much trp I start to think about it too much and I regress back into my overly analytical and bitter frame. It seems archwinger's point applies to trp also; don't try too hard. Only just noticed this is from 3 weeks ago, oh well.

[–]chillmonkey880 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Art of seduction is good down to its basics and core... interesting to say the least.

[–]nihilistic_apathic0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, But it aint no bible. It's a collection of observation, stories and lessons. I say, read the book and taking it for a grain of salt because the book will not provide insight on your own life.

[–]1AreYouAware_0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I found the Art of Seduction to be a difficult read. I admit that I haven't finished it, though I think now that I might have a better appreciation for it and may give it another try.

[–]ArtistBlock5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

Same here. I find it very dense. I have to read over and over just to get it. is it me? does anyone else experience the same thing?

[–]Interrupting_Otter1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I have a copy and read it occasionally. I have many pages bookmarked and I go back and read certain sections. I don't think a cover to cover approach is best, try skimming.

[–]draketton30 points31 points  (2 children) | Copy

desire is sexy
sacrifice is not

[–]donit3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Desire implies you think you can have her, and should have her. Sacrifice implies that you think she's someone you don't deserve. She's judging you on how you judge yourself.

[–]Kiwikeeper-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy

She judges herself on How you judge yourself

[–]IWillHandleIt28 points29 points  (13 children) | Copy

The more you do for a woman, the more contempt she will have for you.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (2 children) | Copy

Man, I've seen this one in action. All I can say is it's perplexing.

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

it's perplexing.

To her, it's about power and status. The guy who serves her is now a serf who invites himself to be crushed beneath her boot-heal.

I find beta's perplexing. They want to be adored and doted upon with mommy love... so they project that shit onto women and unconsciously reverse gender roles.

[–]1dongpal1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy

Also for interest? Today I approached a 28 year old woman ( Im 22 ) and she was very interesting. She studied law with success, amazing body and was overall pretty interesting. I talked to her 30 mins, the conversation went well until I asked for her number and she said Im too young for her. I showed a lot of genuine interest because apparently I was. Should I hold myself back and act like shes nothing special?

[–]should_2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy

I don't think there's any reason you should talk to her ever again. Abundance mentality. Next.

[–]1dongpal0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

Yeah but should I stop showing interest while talking?

[–]Joshua_Naterman4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

I'd say that you don't want to hide the fact that you're attracted to her, but you also don't want to act like you need her.

Continuing to talk and joke is showing interest enough, honestly. Every woman knows that a guy who is talking to her is generally interested in her sexually. We don't need us to go to any particular lengths beyond that to let them know.

Being particularly earnest or overly attentive puts you in the "cute puppy" category more often than not, which is bad. Talking comfortably as if you're joking around with an old friend (being smart enough to not get into any obvious deep waters or sensitive topics that could break the attraction) generally makes you more attractive. When you're with friends you're not even LOOKING for signs of interest... you're with your friend, you already know you're good.

To put it simply: Your world should be complete without her, and she should be able to sense that throughout the conversation. Your world without her is like a well-furnished new house without that extra picture on the wall... a nice decoration would add to the atmosphere, but many other pictures would do just as well and you already have a damn nice place as it is. That's not indifference, it's just recognition that there's no void in your life. Everyone likes nice additions, you don't want to give the impression that you are not perfectly pleased with your life when a woman isn't in it. That's actually the attitude that taken guys have (since they literally do not have a void where girls are concerned) and that comes across instantly, which is why many many guys will always notice that women halfway throw themselves at them when they are in a relationship but not when they are single.

Make sense? This is the innate attitude that creates that "something" that women always say 'this one guy' has... that something that makes them want him far more than they really should based on looks, profession, etc.

This also frees your mind to handle replies like "you're too young for me" in a fun way, like laughing lightly in self-amusement as you point out how absurd that assumption is (considering that she doesn't know anything about who you are as a person), or that you thought lawyers weren't supposed to jump to conclusions about people they just met, or say "maybe you're too old for me :) (with a fun but mischevious little grin)... whatever. People here probably have tons of good suggestions, and at any rate you'll end up learning what seems to work the best for you.

You could also be very direct and simply say something like "Age isn't the issue between men and women in any kind of relationship, it's whether or not they are working towards a goal they are both interested in and whether or not they know how to celebrate each other's success. There are just as many 32 year old guys out there who aren't worth your time as 22 year old guys, but neither of those groups has their head on straight enough to realize this." You would probably blow her damn mind right there. This also keeps the conversation focused on things that bring you together, not potential dividers.

It's important to note that, despite what some people will say, there are some girls who will simply be open to this no matter what you do. This is fine, it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with a preconception they have and are not interested in changing. That's life, no one can get absolutely anyone no matter what.

There are a ton of things you could say that will weed out girls with no decent sense of humor (which I personally can't handle) or redirect the conversation into a new area that quickly ends with renewed interest, you checking your phone or watch for the time, needing to go, and setting up a date and time to continue. The only thing that would keep a guy from doing SOMETHING like this is the fear of losing something, in this case her, which isn't an emotion you can have when you are already complete.

Whatever you do, whatever your style ends up being, check out while the conversation is near or at its peak. Always end on a high note, she'll remember you by the last feelings she had more often than not.

Finally, abundance mentality is basically encompassed above. You aren't worried about any particular woman because you don't have a hole in your life that they need to fill. Women are just people. Sure, they have boobs and pussy, but whatever. That's not what you're looking for, you're simply enjoying interacting with a cool person. That other stuff will be there as long as that person is a woman, and that attitude will distinguish you from nearly everyone else they meet.

To get good at this, you need to talk to lots of women on a regular basis for a while, because you will continue to get better and better for a long time. You don't need to sleep with them all, or even most. Just get good at recognizing how interest is generated and kept, and also learn how to successfully escalate things more or less at will. As you build that skill set the mentality will become a part of you, and you can either sleep with tons of girls or you can just keep meeting people and passing on them until you find the one you really want, and then she'll be a part of your life.

I personally learned from David DeAngelo's materials but there's a lot of good stuff out there these days... that was 9 years ago and he was the only game in town worth a shit. There is absolutely a pretty set framework for human interactions of various types, and learning how to take advantage of that is incredibly good for your overall happiness and success.

I used to be pretty terrible with women. Today I can generate interest when I want, more or less, decide whether these girls will be friends or more, and never be perceived as an ass. In the end this has put me in the position of having a really awesome girlfriend of 3 years and change. I still practice on a regular basis, but I don't go beyond verbal flirting and diverting interest into friendship on purpose because I don't believe in cheating. This keeps my interactions with my lady fresh and exciting, gives us stories to laugh at together (might not work that way with all women, but she's not a jealous one since I make her feel very secure), and keeps me valuable to her at an unconscious level. She likes knowing that other women find me attractive, but that she's the only one who can have me. It is also fun.

Either way, forget about her until the next time you see her, and practice.

[–]1dongpal1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

thanks for the input

some new things I learned from this

[–]Ronald_Reagan_Reddit1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Excellent post. Great overview of an effective mindset

[–]should_0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Why would you talk to her again to begin with? Is this someone you see regularly in your life? If not, she's history.

No reason to show interest; if you overtly did, it'd be creepy since she missed out. You can have your hard dick inside someone and say "it's pretty chilly in here, I'm gonna turn off the AC" without communicating interest (vocally/facially), so I think you can have a conversation with someone random and not show interest. If your eyes are going to be pulsating with desire every time you see her then that's another matter entirely. It sounds like she was interested enough to talk to you for thirty minutes so just act chill and like nothing happened if you see her again; don't make it complicated with anger or anxiety. But don't become an orbiter.

[–]1dongpal0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

sorry, english is not my main language, I only talked once to her. I didnt mean that I will talk to her again

she is new in my gym

[–]should_0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

At /r/AskTRP you can make a post with the same question and expect a number of responses.

[–]Joshua_Naterman0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

No, the more you become her doormat the more contempt she will have for you.

Women appreciate you doing things for them when it makes sense, but they will not appreciate you rearranging your entire life to revolve around them or giving up something that is important to you on any kind of a regular basis.

That's just disrespecting yourself, and no woman worth being around finds that kind of self-treatment attractive. That's not nice, it's submissive and dishonest. There's a huge difference.

[–][deleted] 56 points57 points  (9 children) | Copy

Never chase women. Chase your dreams, then women will chase you.

[–]Endorsed Contributorgekkozorz24 points25 points  (1 child) | Copy

You know what makes me feel like a fucking adonis? When I soft next a girl.

In my travels, every once in a while I'll encounter a 6-8 who isn't even plate material, so I'll say "fuck it", drop her from my cycle, and move on to the next. Sometimes I'll do this without even making an effort to bang the chick.

Every single god damned time I do this, you'd think I was fucking Leo DiCaprio. The chicks I do this to will go from "mildly interested" to "blowing up my phone for the next hour." It's insane.

[–]aaron_the_great18 points19 points  (0 children) | Copy

You should post an example text conversation of this. Would love to see how you "soft" next a girl

[–]edmproducerXX28 points29 points  (0 children) | Copy

First you get the money , then you get the power and then you get the pussy - Tony Montana

[–]LewisSkolnick34 points35 points  (4 children) | Copy

Yup. Women are looking for a provider (whether they admit it or not). They will be attracted to a guy who can take care of himself and who always looks out for himself. This doesn't mean blow her off for no reason and fake being busy... it means work your hardest and achieve your goals (you will probably become a very in demand guy because of this), and the rest will fall into place.

Remember, women want to be a part of your life. They don't want to be your life.

[–]RedPill11511 points12 points  (2 children) | Copy

Remember, women want to be a part of your life. They don't want to be your life.

I think the phrasing is a little off - they do want to be your life. They want to come along and become your life. They don't at all want to be in charge of your life, or be responsible for creating your life.

They want to be the stockholder with a majority stake in your company (if they want a relationship), but they don't want to be the CEO. They want to sit back and be part of the ride.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

They don't want to be your life, they want to be another goo filled hole quivering on you mattress. Or for you to be their ATM, but hopefully the former.

But between that they are like kittens and like to be in a happy mood, which is accomplished by basically treating them like cats. Pet them, talk softly to them, tease them, kiss them in funny places, and then leave them alone with their iPhone while you go set up a date with your housemate's friend outside.

[–]2na_Fish1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

"I don't chase 'em, i replace 'em"

– Biggie

[–]SlippyToadsWildRide23 points24 points  (1 child) | Copy

This is an incredible post, but I'm worried a lot of noobs are going to interpret it as "stop approaching women, women will just come to you." For the readers who are thinking this: Sure some might if you just sit back, but as a man you need to approach and initiate with women and this means you will be conveying interest in them. I said this in a reply just now, but you basically need to communicate interest AS WELL AS freedom from outcome. You need to basically signal "yeah I'm attracted to you, but if it doesn't work out I don't give a shit because my life is already awesome and I know I'll find someone else anyway."

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

OP said everything he needed to say:

And by the way, women fuck guys like that without them having to do much more than just walking up and saying hi

It really is that easy. Beyond hi, just let nature take over. It knows what to do, don't listen to your brain at all. Recovering incel, never would have imagined.

[–]Position5hero129 points130 points  (25 children) | Copy

Women don't really want romance, or if they do, they want it from someone they desire- that's what separates romantic from creepy in their eyes.

If a man they like makes a romantic gesture, it's romance.

If a man they don't like does it, it's being a creep

Remember Brad Pitt test: If Brad Pitt made this website for a girl, do you think any of them would think it was creepy? No. No, no no. They just hop on his dick.

your wives and girlfriends are fucking guys like that right now.

Obligatory 'come say that to my face' type comment, etc.

[–]some12talk2[🍰] 48 points49 points  (9 children) | Copy

Remember Brad Pitt test: If Brad Pitt made this website for a girl, do you think any of them would think it was creepy? No. No, no no. They just hop on his dick.

I don't think so. Remember the Robin Thicke test. Early in 2013 he had very strong sex appeal

(google robin thicke sex appeal and get 2013 articles like http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/robin-thicke/answers/show/190414/on-scale-1-10-how-would-rate-robin-thicke-singer-on-sex-appeal)

Then he produced a whole "romantic" album to try to win his wife Paula back. Now he is creepy

(google robin thicke creepy and get 2014 articles)

same looking guy, big drop in SMV

[–]redknight00753 points54 points  (0 children) | Copy

So pretty much this dumbass broke frame by going from a sleazy player type to a romantic and consequently ruined his career.

[–]Position5hero16 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy

yeah and he ain't no bradd pitt he's a 15 minute of fame dude that looks OK

very high SMV for those 15 mins though, as to be expected

[–]trpnoc1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

google robin thicke creepy and get 2014 articles

Doing something like that really shows the perspective provided by Red Pill. Prior to this subreddit, I would simply write off this article as an irrelevant dumb cunt's diatribe — however, Red Pill allows for a learned entomological analysis of the instinctive hate the author feels for a male exhibiting behavior inconsistent with his apparent SMV.

[–]ilirm6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

This reminds me of a blog post.

http://librachronicles.wordpress.com/2014/10/21/risk-creepy-by-60yearsofchallenge/

[–]TRP VanguardArchwinger[S] 33 points34 points  (6 children) | Copy

I submit that the extreme level of loser in that pathetic guy's webpage is enough to put even Brad Pitt into a hole. He'd probably actually have to tell a woman "I was just kidding lol" before she'd fuck him. That level of loser was pretty extreme.

[–]Position5hero54 points55 points  (4 children) | Copy

Eh, once your SMV hits a certain point, anything you say or do is hamstered away by the women desperate to sleep with you.

Any negative trait will be hampstered into a positive one, because it being a positive trait is another reason to sleep with you.

If you're Brad Pitt, game is sort of irrelevant.

You can walk up to girls on the street, ask to smell their hair, and fuck her on the first date.

[–]RPSigmaStigma37 points38 points  (2 children) | Copy

I'm with this guy. The reason it would work for Brad Pitt is because he has automatic pre-selection. Women already know he can get any woman he wants. The webpage would just mean that woman was just that special.

When an unknown AFC does it, there's no pre-selection, so it's creepy and desperate. Automatic DLV.

[–]CapitalG2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

It's like that YouTube video that went viral about the "crazy vs. hot" graph for women and the added one for men at the end. The men that are attractive and wealthy enough could do literally anything short of murdering someone and women would flock to their door - and some would even go for him if he did that, too.

[–]elevul0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Many, if not most, would love to fuck him if he murdered someone.

[–]B_Campbell8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is true. If you're Brad Pitt, the negative traits are cute and endearing.

Also, Brad wouldn't make his own web page. He'd just have some chick he does on the side make it for him.

[–]1Snivellious5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

I don't know about whether this could actually put Brad Pitt in the hole - I don't know if anything short of "I'm going to murder you with the knife in my pocket" could. That said, I think you have the right insight here.

This isn't a place for the Brad Pitt test. Even if it wouldn't stop him from getting laid, it would hurt his odds. They're just very high already. This isn't "sexy from the right guy", it's simply a turnoff. Romance in the sense of "roses because that's sweet" is hot from the right guy. Romance in the sense of "Please? I want you so badly." is never hot.

Not for Brad Pitt, not for George Clooney, not for anyone in the real world.

[–]osborne_cox9 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy

My roommate is an ex scout sniper covered in tats. Physically speaking he's probably one of the most ripped guys I know. Just trying to emphasize that aesthetically speaking, he's damn near perfect.

He's extremely insecure, needy, and tries way too hard. In the 2 years I've known him he's prolly slept with 2 girls. Ya, they were both 9's, but my point is that a high SMV isn't an end all solution. I agree with OP, trying to attract women is unattractive. Always. Period.

[–]widec17 points18 points  (0 children) | Copy

That doesn't sound like high smv at all. What you're trying to say is that looks don't mean everything.

[–]TRP VanguardCyralea11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's absolutely possible to be very attractive and still have low SMV as a guy. Good-looking guys tend to trend towards high-SMV because success improves their confidence, further begetting success.

Good-looking loser syndrome is a real thing.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm not 100% about the Brad Pitt test though. If Brad Pitt wrote a song saying about how much he loves his seperated wife do you think that would earn her respect? Ask Robin Thicke how that worked out.

[–]bertmaklinFBI2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

This "Brad Pitt Test" is horrible.

[–]2johnnight1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

creepy = unwanted attention

[–]mikehod20 points21 points  (1 child) | Copy

I messed around with a girl in college who told me a previous man had written 'I love you" using little twigs on her front patio after he left her house one night. I'm sure he thought he was being romantic, but it totally turned her off, and she never saw him again after that.

This was the first thing I thought about when I read this. Twas a lesson I never forgot.

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (0 children) | Copy

The twig lesson.

Took me a long time to realize that past relationships got worse almost in direct proportion to the number of romantic gestures I offered.

Note, this doesn't apply to gifts. Being a good gift giver can work some magic. Writing in twig letters, not so much.

[–]should_16 points17 points  (1 child) | Copy

You could replace this idiot with any penis-owner

Something I love about the Red Pill is that we're objective enough to call ourselves something like this. A feminist would never call herself a vagina-wielder. That would be too degrading and oppressive for their empowered selves.

[–]CapitalG5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

A key difference between men and women.

[–]untitled135 points36 points  (12 children) | Copy

This is one of the foundation elements Mark Manson's book Models.

  • In a woman's eyes the most unattractive trait a man can have is neediness. (Creepiness is an extreme form of neediness.)

  • Therefore the most attractive trait a man can have is non-neediness.

  • A lot of pickup (especially early pickup) is just a set of tricks to appear non-needy. They don't work long term because using these tactics is itself a form of neediness.

  • When you genuinely invest in yourself and have a high opinion of yourself you will naturally convey non-neediness.

Status in a male is determined by his behavior. Outward displays of status can create opportunities (cars, money, nice clothes), but don’t create lasting attraction themselves. They are the effects of high status behavior, not the causes.

Sexual attraction from women is determined by status, status is determined by behavior, and what determines whether a man has attractive behavior or not is his perception of himself relative to those around him, particularly women. I refer to this concept as neediness and believe the degree of a man’s neediness around women will determine how attractive or unattractive his behavior around them will be.

From http://markmanson.net/attract-women

These "romantic gestures" are really just a way of communicating neediness. You can't buy a girl flowers and expect it to create attraction. If the attraction is already there you can get away with, but otherwise it will just look needy.

[–][deleted] 3 points3 points | Copy

[permanently deleted]

[–]truchisoft5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

You are interpreting it wrong.

You make it clear you are attracted to the girl, and by make it clear I say do not tell her that (not in many cases, at least, maybe in a pub this might be a good approach), just lust her with your eyes, kino escalate her, hit on her friends, or tease her right.

Then show her that even if you find her likeable, you will not go out of your way for her, nor will you try to win her over.

Then they get crazy tingles for you.

[–]satoshi_btc0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Manson is all about being honest. saying what you mean and never backing down. make no excuses.

[–]donit4 points5 points  (8 children) | Copy

You can't eliminate neediness because that would wipe out desire as well as approach.

You do have to demonstrate that you need her, so we're going to have to split it between strong neediness and weak-kneediness.

Weak kneediness is: "I hope you like me, but I don't have much confidence in myself so I'm going to try to approach you slowly, unsure of myself."

Strong neediness is: Mongo want, Mongo take.

[–]Joshua_Naterman1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy

This is just the difference between 1) a man who recognizes that it is ok to be attracted to a woman without being ashamed of it and realizes that this is actually his job and 2) a penis-wielder who is still brainwashed into thinking that he needs a woman's permission to be attracted to her and somehow manages to feel weird about said attraction, thus effectively failing as a man and successfully communicating his complete lack of self-value as a mating option.

Mongo's not needy, he's communicative and unapologetic about his attraction to the woman.

I get what you're saying, and I like the spelling joke/pun, but I don't think it's helpful for a guy to think of himself as any kind of (k)needy.

It's our job to be attracted to women (and/or men, if that's how you roll) and to communicate that. It's their job to judge our worthiness as a mate, and our job to communicate our worthiness through our carriage, conversation, and actions. Done correctly this leads to us getting what we want more often than not.

[–]donit0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Mongo need lunch money. Now.

I don't think you can separate want from need. They are one and the same. Want used to have a more negative tone to describe people suffering without food. Now it just means pressure to get something, but so does need which implies a slightly stronger pressure to get something.

Mongo need lunch money, so you're just going to have to deal with that. Mongo need girl, so she's just going to have to deal with that...one way or the other. Mongo don't care because he need result. Now.

Mongo need route of girl. He willing to take another route, but he expect answer from girl.

Beta boy needs route of girl also, but he is more beta about it, reaching from a lower level. Mongo man reach from higher level. The difference between them isn't neediness, it's the level they are needing from. Mongo man needs from the abundance of high expectations and high self-image. Beta-boy needs from lack and low self-image.

I don't think the girl judges you on why you need her, or that you need her, or how much you need her. I don't think she counts that against you. She judges you on your level, your social rank, and the social value of the route you are offering.

There is a saying that you shouldn't give up your power, or show too much interest because that will diffuse her attraction. Perhaps these things often demonstrate lower value because they are done in the wrong tone, not that they are done. Being too easy to please demonstrates lower value because it implies you don't value yourself or your own opinion.

But being too needy toward the girl is a misconception...we need to break that down. If your neediness is about validation and attention, then yes, that demonstrates lower value. But if your neediness is just needing her with you, needing her near you, then it doesn't.

A needy beta will continually ask a girl's opinion to earn her validation, while a needy man will continually comfort her by telling her what he wants and defining and dictating her place in his life.

[–]Joshua_Naterman0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

You can classify them however it works for you.

I don't think wants are needs. To me, a want is something you are willing ti live without if (potentially extreme) circumstances demand it.

Needs are those things that you simply are not willing to go without no matter what, and that you will absolutely either find a way to acquire or die in the attempt.

Mongo definitely needs results. He will get results. He is not willing to get zero results, so he will figure out a way to get them.

[–]donit0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I'm just trying to resolve the misconception of "neediness" being a bad thing.

Mongo man needs the route of the girl. He's willing to take another route, but he expects an answer from each girl.

Beta boy needs the route of the girl also, but he is more beta about it, reaching from a lower level. Mongo man reaches from a higher level.

The difference between them isn't neediness, it's the level they are needing from. Mongo man needs from the abundance of high expectations and high self-image. Beta-boy needs from lack and low self-image.

I don't think the girl judges you on why you need her, or that you need her, or how much you need her. I don't think she counts that against you. She judges you on your level, your social rank, and the social value of the route you are offering.

There is a saying that you shouldn't give up your power, or show too much interest because that will diffuse her attraction. Perhaps these things often demonstrate lower value because they are done in the wrong tone, not that they are done. Being too easy to please demonstrates lower value because it implies you don't value yourself or your own opinion.

But I think being too needy toward the girl is a misconception...we need to break that down. If your neediness is about validation and attention, then yes, that demonstrates lower value. But if your neediness is just needing her with you, needing her near you, then it doesn't.

A needy beta will continually ask a girl's opinion to earn her validation, while a needy man will continually comfort her by telling her what he wants and defining and dictating her place in his life.

[–]Joshua_Naterman0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I think we might just be using different words to say similar things.

Girls appreciate being appreciated, but don't like us altering too much of our lives for them. The scarcity of contact is more often a good thing than a bad thing, to a pretty decent extent.

I don't really like the way you state it because I don't think it is very relatable or really even makes sense, because the message the woman receives is very very different. A message saying "something is missing in my life" is bad. A message saying "I am happy and you are entertaining+sexy" is good.

The woman never feels they are NEEDED with that second one, and that is very attractive. Women value completeness, not voids. As such they tend to try and make themselves needed by giving us more attention, sex, etc, because they like what they see and want to be a part of it. This isn't conscious, but it does happen.

My experience may not reflect yours, or anyone else's, but I do find that women like to feel appreciated but not needed. They can KNOW you "need them" but need to never feel as if you would be incomplete without them. That is a key point in human relationships, because that basically defines the difference between having an obligation and enjoying a mutually beneficial situation.

I really think that the "needy man" is not needy at all. He enjoys, appreciates, and values, and shows the woman all of that through his interactions with her, but never makes her feel needed. He makes her feel wanted, which is much more powerful in my experience. It seems weird, but that's what I have noticed.

YMMV.

[–]donit0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

All excellent points. But I still think there's a line down the middle of neediness, where on one side, it lowers your value, but on the other side it doesn't.

If you tell a girl you need her, she doesn't automatically know why. Most guys will use pedestal words like "beautiful" to push the girl up, which lowers their own value. But pedestalling is a separate issue.

So, the question is if you need her, does that cause her to judge your value as being lower, or does it cause her to think of your value to other women as being lower.

"I'm a powerful, successful man, but there's something missing: I need you." I think those things are on completely different planes. Needing a woman doesn't make the man any less attractive.

Another necessary split: Needing a woman vs needing attention from a woman because he doesn't get any attention from women because other women don't value him.

The man must need a woman from the abundance level of already having women lined up wanting him. "I have so many women throwing themselves at me, yet what's missing in my life...what I really, really need...is you."

I think from an evolutionary standpoint, it would be self-destructive for the woman to count her perception of the man's alignment toward her...against him. Unless the value of that alignment is lower than the value of not being valued by the man...which would seem equally destructive. If he doesn't value her, he won't support her and the baby, or hang around and give her more kids. She's better off going with a high-value, sought-after guy who needs her and is aligned toward her.

[–]untitled10 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Yes. There's a difference between "I'm a strong, confident man and I would like to fuck that pretty girl, so I'm going to go for it."

Versus, "Oh god I'm so lonely! Will you pleeeeaasse go out with me?? I'll buy you pretty things. Why can't you see that I'm so much better than all those other jerks?"

[–]donit1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Mongo need phone number. Because Mongo need.

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (15 children) | Copy

Ok so i know that we should not:

-Put women on a pedestal

-Orbit them

-Try to impress them

-Be needy

-And we SHOULD neg them.

I get it and understand why this is important to both us as men and them as women. But my question is, in a world where a girl is probably simultaneously being pedestalled, oribited ect. by a bunch of needy guys how does one get the girls attention and attraction while following all these guidelines?

How do we communicate our interest in them?

[–]SlippyToadsWildRide15 points16 points  (1 child) | Copy

Obviously you need to communicate interest in a woman. But you need to do it in a matter that also communicates freedom from outcome. You need to basically signal "yeah I'm attracted to you, but if it doesn't work out I don't give a shit because my life is already awesome and I know I'll find someone else anyway"

[–][deleted] 30 points31 points  (1 child) | Copy

Just a note: Negging is situational.

IMHO, you neg to bring her self percieved value down below your own, because remember, women always date up and men below them in SMV are invisible. However, if your SMV is already above hers, you shouldn't neg. All this does is make her feel bad. Her hypergamy is already making her attractive to you so now all negging accomplishes is causing her to relate negative feelings with being in your presence.

If you are going after the hypothetical 10, then you will need to constantly neg. If you are going after a 7 and you are a 7 yourself, then you will need just enough so that she feels she's a 6.5. If you are a 7 going after a 5, then don't neg at all.

[–]PlanB_pedofile9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy

I worked with a model that occasionally thinks she's hot shit. She has the right to be cocky considering her publications. She tried to shit test me with her cockyness and I dished it right back. What really ruffled her feathers was when I told her she looked tired.

"You don't tell a model she looks tired "

"I'll tell it as it is"

We got along after that and nailed a few fun shots.

[–]OKJaded17 points18 points  (0 children) | Copy

They assume all men are interested in them. You don't need to telegraph it. Your attraction to her will not get you laid. Her attraction to you will get your dick sucked in the bathroom stall.

The trick is getting them interested in you. This is where the best game is no game. If you're the man, you won't need to pretend you're the man. You are already the fucking man, shes just along for the ride.

[–]IWillHandleIt10 points11 points  (4 children) | Copy

How do we communicate our interest in them?

We don't. Women don't give a shit. They only care if they're interested in us. But if you go up and start talking to her, she probably knows anyway. Women are a lot of things; stupid isn't one of them. And we tend to be about as subtle as a train horn.

my question is, in a world where a girl is probably simultaneously being pedestalled, oribited ect. by a bunch of needy guys how does one get the girls attention and attraction while following all these guidelines?

By not giving a fuck.

Do you know how sick of wimpy, toadying, pedastalizing men the average halfway decent+ looking woman is? Completely fucking sick of them! Now that doesn't mean she won't keep them around if they will do things for her or buy her things. But those panties sure as hell aren't coming off. She holds them in contempt, even though she won't say it to their faces.

So how do you get her to want you? Don't be those guys. Internal Game. Buy "No More Mr. Nice Guy", read sidebar material, etc.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy

"But if you go up and start talking to her, she probably knows anyway"

But if we don't give a fuck how and why are we talking to her?

[–]ThreadPill9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy

I personally recommend "Models" by Mark Manson. Communicating confidence through vulnerability.

As a pure RP and straightforward answer though, "outcome independence".

-Put women on a pedestal

-Orbit them

-Try to impress them

-Be needy

These are all examples of being outcome dependent.

[–]IWillHandleIt5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

"But if you go up and start talking to her, she probably knows anyway" But if we don't give a fuck how and why are we talking to her?

By 'you', I mean that as in anyone who has a blue pill mindset. Thinking that you need to communicate your interest to her (and that doing so will have a positive effect on her interest in you) is a blue pill mindset. It's the mindset that the OP was talking about.

By 'don't give a fuck', I mean about whether she likes you, whether you get her approval, winning her over, etc. Those are all worries of beta orbiters, pedastallizers, etc. That's because their whole perspective is wrong.

If that doesn't make any sense, you're going to have to get a lot more understanding about how you see yourself and other people (not just women) and that's a whole lot of material (side bar, NMMNG, Rational Male, etc. - see my above post) and work. There is no quick fix.

[–]xtr3m1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

It looks like you're worrying about a particular person. RP doesn't work that way. It won't guarantee you getting that particular person. Instead it will give many others. Shift the focus to yourself, remember abundance mentality, and eventually start reaping the benefits.

[–]Endorsed ContributorBluepillProfessor1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is an often misunderstood part of TRP.

Yes you have to be outcome independent cuz girls only want to fuck guys who don't want to fuck them (basically).

Yes you have to have an abundance mentality cuz girls want to fuck what other girls are fucking.

However, you MUST signal sexual interest at the same time. To do so you communicate nonverbally. Check her out. Make hot eye contact longer than necessary. Smirk while your eyes roam to her chest. Then Kino, kiss, isolate, escalate, fuck, and do it with complete confidence in the close.

[–]LukesLikeIt0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Tell her the truth and take her answer like a man

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Being transparent never worked for me. You got to keep them guessing.

[–][deleted] 51 points52 points  (3 children) | Copy

Every once in awhile there is another post here that helps me further understand how the world works around us.

This is sidebar material.

[–]Paddy327 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm really glad that I can read this in our time. I totally understand this, I'm nearly in my mid-20's, working on a successful carreer, and having such an insight on how the world works is priceless.

Also, after all the ex's I've had, I noticed myself that trying to impress a girl, tell her compliments and nice things just doesn't work, it does the opposite, it's not attractive. For a couple of years I'm getting more and more convinced that the best thing to do is just stick to yourself, be yourself, and be a man ♂.

Women are attracted to self-confidence, which in my honest opinion is really hard to achieve for a man, but that's why working for it is worth it.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

Sidebar? I want to print this post and read it every day because I experienced both the "avoid doing" and the "do this instead" sides far too many times.

[–]flexiblehold3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Grand public overtures of romance are quite narcissistic, they're really more about the guy showing how clever or sentimental he is. Woman are by nature very narcissistic, they see men as mirrors, they don't want some dork stealing their thunder or upstaging them.

The real way to romance a woman is to manipulate how she sees herself through you: get her to feel like a sexy, accomplished, intelligent woman, and then allow her to become addicted to that feeling by selectively depriving her of it (with negs, challenges, teasing, aloofness).

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy

your wives and girlfriends are fucking guys like that right now

Are we the guys you are referring to? Or are all of our wives/girlfriends cheating. Should we initiate the "mass next"?

[–]rocsNaviars3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is mindblowing for me. I have been needing to realize this for awhile.

Thank you.

[–]StarkAtheist4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

Thanks for posting this--you are DEAD ON.

I was told my whole life, "You're too nice" because of my generic acts of kindness and compliments. There I was... with a bunch of female friends.

NO MORE.

I started listening to you guys and applied red pill strategies in every day conversations. I refuse their shit tests, got to the gym, and now they're like, "What are you doing this weekend?"

I HATE that the Red Pill philosophy is true. But... if being a dick gets me pussy... so be it.

[–]noworriescc8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy

Why do you hate it being true?

Don't fall for the smoke and mirrors of other men choking on the bitterness of reality.

Many Red Pillers use the philosophy behind the red pill to help guide them into bed with women. Others use it to frame life as a Free Thinking Man. Many red pillers, particularly those responding with bitterness are still Mr. Nice Guys.

Mr. Nice Guy isn't really nice. He is manipulative and without a spine, bending for the approval of anyone. This is not only unattractive to women but to people, generally.

Kindness, generosity, as you mentioned, are all good traits, even Virtues in the right hands. Despite this fact, engaging in these behaviors under a covert contract is folly. You say that you engaged i generic acts of kindness and compliments and your reward was a group of female friends....

This says to me: "I am kind and generous, I expect _____ in return". THIS IS WRONG. You HATE it because you think life is easy and that with a flick of the wrist, open a door, BOOM, you will have a door opened for you. Poor use of logic. Don't hate the red pill for not working, blame yourself for not being strong enough to be kind and generous without feeling entitled to a reward.

Get your pussy but with your mindset, you will always be a bitter Mr. Nice Guy.

Read this and get a healthier attitude (I mean this encouraging, tough-love...you can get through it!):

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

Well, if you're approaching a woman (for sex or an LTR,) it's obvious you're trying to attract her. And by the logic of this post, you shouldn't be trying to do that. It's almost like a paradox.

[–]TRP VanguardArchwinger[S] 20 points21 points  (1 child) | Copy

That's the point of being a valuable man with good game. If you so much as breathe within the same room as one of today's narcissistic women, she thinks, "Great. That creep is about to hit on me. All men want me. Can't they just take a hint?"

Then, she's surprised when you buy yourself a drink instead of her, point out the beer stain on her dress, and ask her to introduce you to her ugly friend. Two minutes later, you're teasing each other and your arm's around her. Six hours and two more locations later and she's sucking your dick.

Men who know the score take advantage of the presumptions of women.

[–]newlifeasredpill3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

|Then, she's surprised when you buy yourself a drink instead of her, point out the beer stain on her dress, and ask her to introduce you to her ugly friend.

This is the funniest thing I have read in weeks. And... I am sure it would work too!

Arch -- your posts are treasures

[–]Gmun230 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Attraction is the wrong word used in OP, it should be Impress, because all the above examples are "impressing" the girl, not attracting her (He hoped this would impress the girl; creating attraction)

We spend the majority of our time on self-improvement in all tasks in life. eg. If your bad at cooking, its counter-intuitive to buy "Pre made" meal, or that TV and eating Oreos is not adding any value to our life. We should do things that add value to our life and diminish/improve things that are of low value. We should consciously look at events/tasks/.. and ask our self: "Is this adding sufficient value to my life? If not, should I cut it out or improve on it?".

Yes, we are spinning plates and attracting girls in the hope that It will add value to our future life. Instead thing about it as practising game, it's self-improvement.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

<this is not for newbies, this can be very strong and will get you into very imbalanced power dinamics, if you can't game and hold frame during the hard times, you should not be using this because it will>

Okay, so romance. Here's my take on it.

Like love it has been inflated to mean almost anything but fundamentally it means sacrifice at a primal level, whether that comes as status, time or value.

Now this is at a primal level, so percentage matter more than actual nominal value.

The purpose of all this is simple: nesting. Romanticism i.e. sacrifice is the proof that a guy is broken in, is ready and willing to provide(we all have that urge, we don't have the urge to dominate our partner, LTR guys know how shitty the sex gets once you start to actually like your woman). So in the emotional tug of war for a man's life we have our egos and our patriarchal insticts to fight it out for our fate.

Now, notes:

  • sacrifice only works if you made a mistake a real one not a made up one by the woman.

  • Sacrifice works if it raises her value, if you go lower than her value with your sacrifice, she will need to settle if she gets back with you.(and that is something she will never forget if you make her do it.)

  • If she already had your dedication and commitment you can not sacrifice more than you already gave her, this is why romance is almost impossible when you are 10 years down the road and have 3 kids. (but you can replace it with attentiveness, protection or consideration in combination with some red pill frames, these are also defined wrongly as romantic behaviors because we know the difference). Like with most things, she needs to already be attracted for this to work(attracted =/= invested !!!), grand gestures from betas are like banks with no security, you are asking to be robed while scaring away all the honest clients.

  • sacrifice does not imply verbal supperficial promises or even changes, it implies a different stage in your relationship: like sex, cohabitating or god forbid marriage. Words do not matter!

  • if abused she becomes desensitised, small and unexpected is the way to go. DO NOT USE ROMANCE on ROMANTICS. This is like using money on strippers, you can not posibly meet their expectations.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Only one you should impress is yourself.

[–]Terraphilia2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm thinking this.

[–]Hormander1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Nice post, thank you for this reminder

[–]JJGladiator1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Easy to understand concept when you hash it out like that. This is the reason why women like guys that are 'naturals' and can't stand the idea of Game or trying to learn it.

Well done.

[–]IWillHandleIt3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's all about the feels. Remember, women are highly influenced by emotion, much more so than men. Which of the following appeals to the feels?

A) She's like every other woman in that she finds the same things attractive in a man. They're together because he learned what those things are and methodically went about acquiring those traits.

B) She's a special snowflake, totally unique in the universe. It was meant to be and astrology or some shit brought the two of them together.

A is a cold, logical view. B is all about the feels.

[–]metallica111 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy

I fucking hate this shit. As someone that (naturally) gets easily exited about things he is interested in and shows it (and that applies to ANYTHING, not just a particular girl), I feel like it always backfires.

Girls always have a sixth sense if you like them. It's almost like you have to consciously monitor your behavior so that you do not appear excited to see them or be around them, in order to appear as if you don't like them, so that they can like you.

Funny thing is, I am a busy guy, I spend A LOT of my time a week working towards my goals, so it does not mean that if I am excited to see a girl or show interest that I have nothing else going on in my life (which is what most girls assume - "oh he is excited to see me, he must have nothing else going for him because otherwise his mind would be on his goals and not me").

[–]1oldredder2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

I'm not seeing why it must be a secret you like girls. Let them see it, sense it, know it.

Just don't make a supplicating ass of yourself. Give them no extra credit whatsoever for any reason, much less an interest in them.

[–]metallica110 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

problem is that if you show any level of over excitement they automatically assume you are supplicating, regardless if you are actually going to be a needy stalker in the future.

[–]1oldredder0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

My experience is different but maybe it's context & particular girls

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

FWIW I have an anecdote from tonight. I was talking to a dude at my local brewpub after we both showed up and ate. I said "bon apetite" to him when both of our food showed up simultaneously (he was hunched over his phone previously). A bit later after we'd both finished eating, we got to chatting and I saw some reflection of my past self in him. He was excitable. The conversation with him was very interesting, but I could tell a less sympathetic or ecstatic person would have written him off quickly. I very consciously noted how un-dapper it was relative to the people I'm used to interacting with and it stuck out in a kind of luke warm way... I'd not have taken his number to hang out, for example.

And since becoming aware and calming myself down, people very often comment about a strong presence and one fairly intimate room of people concurred with an acquaintance who said I seem like nothing could possibly bother to me. Those people only see the tip of the iceberg of course, I am emotional as shit. But they don't have time for that shit, though some of my close bros do.

I totally feel you and it sucks at first, but try going stoic for a bit and watch what changes. For science. Edit: and recalibrate! there is plenty of room for personality, but going all in makes it clear.

[–]Bearhardy2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is all cool, until one day you have a breakdown, it happened to me, I'm emotional beyond belief, everyday I struggle to harness my emotions and don't let them show because I know what happens if I do, everybody loves the cool "nothing can get to him" me and honestly I don't blame them, they don't want to deal with my emotions I don't want to deal with their emotions (man or woman) but I tell you and everybody beware of the build up and search for ways to let them out without messing up your life.

[–]Gnometard1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Excellent advice. This mentality landed me quite the catch this weekend.

[–]hamstercide1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Gentlemen: Stop trying to attract women and focus entirely on yourself. I know it seems counter-intuitive. I know some guys around here worry that if they just do their own shit, no woman will ever notice them and they’ll never get laid again. If that’s the case, you’re doing the wrong shit. Quit playing video games and eating Oreos in your mom’s basement while jerking off to porn every day, and start working out, eating right, excelling professionally, and learning skills. It’s hard work, and far less pleasurable than just screwing around all day, but you get a reward.

The only problem I see with this is that men are still the ones who have to approach. Generally women aren't the ones to approach even if they consider you attractive, they just respond better to you. And if all that work was required to get a woman, what explains all the mediocre men and scumbags who still get laid? The shlubs aren't alphas and neither are the scumbags Marlon Brando.

[–]crazytrpr0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Alpha is relative too your group. If you focus on self development it will show in in your groups status, you posture and manor-isms. You'll be happier with your life, your career will get a boost, you competitors won't dare cross you.

These "alpha" behaviors and their effects will be more real as opposed to simply being PUA tactics. Who approaches and fear of rejection will be irrelevant. You may have to "approach" but by that point she has already given you the get over here and talk to/fuck me body language.

[–]Overzealous_BlackGuy1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

What about instances where guys have done cheesy shit and women DO fall for it? What is to be said about that?

[–]TRP VanguardArchwinger[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Who's falling for what, exactly? There's a difference between:

"You're the most awesome man ever. I will proceed to have mind blowing sex with you any time you want, even without a promise of commitment." and

"Fine. I'll be your girlfriend, but we're not having sex until I'm ready. And Fridays are girl's night. And you're buying dinner tonight. And every time we're out, even though we aren't having sex. And I'm going to shame you and threaten to dump you every time you make a sexual advance. And oops, I accidentally gave a guy a blowjob last girl's night, but I was drunk so you can't really blame me for this small mistake."

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Listen, you have good points, but people just aren't this 100 percent predictable.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Oh boy I wish I had read this in my teenage years :)

Very good sum-up, alot of truths.

[–]teeelo1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

We would never have believed it.

[–][deleted] 2 points2 points | Copy

[permanently deleted]

[–]WaterPotatoe-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy

The OP believes he has transcended women, but he's actually just as much as a slave to them as the other chumps. He'll get better results, but he is deluded if he thinks he's any different.

[–]Joshua_Naterman0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

You're wrong. He is interested in women, but he is not a slave to them. He expresses his attraction to them when he feels like it, and he does so unapologetically. He's more of a buyer: He approaches evaluates, decides what he wants, and then starts the transaction on his terms, creating common ground and developing value with the woman in the process that makes her WANT to be purchased by him. This starts before he ever enters the room he's in, with his self-talk and confidence gained through experience.

Perhaps he'll get cancelled on, no one's 100% over long periods of time, but he's going to get plenty of what he wants.

Slaves do what they are told and do not lay out their own terms. They are fearful of making mistakes, and are often evaluating others for signs of disapproval while obviously attempting to be inoffensive.

Unless you mean "women still have vaginas, men don't" in which case I'd have to agree that women do in fact possess vaginas and men do not.

In long-term relationships, things end up being more give and take, but that would be because it is the kind of relationship he chooses to have. He could always simply meet more women if he didn't like those terms, so you can't say he's a slave to her. The most you could say is that they become partners and work together to make a life they are both happy with.

[–]WaterPotatoe0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I don't disagree with what you're saying.

My point was that he looks down on a guy playing video games (which makes him happy) and that he should dump all this and do things that attract women (build muscle, get status, get money etc). These are not necessarily things that guy wants to do. Engineering your life around attracting women and thus doing things you might not necessarily want to, is not better. It's a choice and not necessarily a better one.

[–]ronin_ninja1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Completely agree, few years back before I even discovered reddit I went full alpha trying to get into my co-workers pants while she her self had a LTR and it worked wonders, they broke up because the beta was to insecure with my presence around his girl, a few weeks later we were hooking up regularly and then the best/worst thing in my life at the time took place, I caught major feelings for the girl and turned my self into a complete beta trying to start a serious relationship with this girl. I completely changed my game and everything started falling apart, I took some advice from a mutual friend who was a girl(never do this) and she told me my prize wasn't sure if I was romantic enough. I took that advice to heart and did so many outlandishly romantic gestures but to no avail. My beta-ness destroyed me it got so bad I couldn't even be friends with her anymore, and for 3 days I truly touched bottom living in my own pity party until I pulled my ass up and started climbing Mt. Alpha. Now I'm in a LTR with a unicorn and I swear I didn't even try.

[–]Masonjarteadrinker21 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Kind of amazing how this works, since finding TRP I've been the least romantic that I've ever been in my LTR and she has never been this in love with me, it's pretty crazy seeing it first hand.

[–]winterequinox0070 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

As an inexperienced RPer, what does the Red Pill offer to a man other than sexual strategy (Not including self-improvement)? Other men are looking for a relationship, companionship rather than sex - which can be argued as being slightly to marginally different, depending on the type of relationship to what is being proposed here. How then does do true Alphas achieve both

  • A genuine question

[–]human_bean_6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

What does seeing the world as it is, offer a man other than sexual strategy?

[–]Maestrotx -1 points-1 points [recovered] | Copy

This is not the place for relationships. These people are really more about manipulating women for sex than anything else. They have NOTHING to offer someone with emotional needs. There is a place for emotional needs, but redpill is not the place for it.

[–]TRP VanguardArchwinger[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It's a bit of an oversimplification to equate a man's emotional needs with having a successful romantic relationship with a woman.

[Most] men are fulfilled by respect, accomplishment, pride. Not by having a girlfriend. Not by having a wife.

They're thrilled to have a girlfriend or family that respects them and supports them in their goals and ambitions. But the mere act of being in a relationship is, on its own, pretty empty. The tools offered by the Red Pill can help a man become respected, successful in many areas of life. As a great side effect, women happily fuck men like that. Relationship optional.

[–]winterequinox007-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

Thanks for clarifying this with me. I had certain misconceptions.

[–]LS_D0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

when I think about it, the "playing hard to get" meme which was suggested to women (by women back in the day) as a way to 'catch a man',, was most likely just their "projection" of their own desires!

After all, to do so was attractive huh? At least to a woman it is .... duh! lol

[–]heldericht0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Well written post, OP. You've broken down and articulated something that a lot of people on TRP should already know but havent coherently put together in their heads.

[–]cooltrip0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

It's not what you do, or what you don't, or how you behave, or how you don't. WOMEN JUST WANT A HANDSOME MAN. Once you are handsome, it doesn't matter what you do or how you behave, you will be desired by women anyway. Handsomeness is the only "succesful behavior" with women.

[–]ArkhamGTR3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I disagree.

Physical appearance can be a win all. then again, superior Financial stauts can be a win all. Same thing for social status. Having it absurdly good in one of the SMV areas really removes the need to do better in the other.

But just because You're getting laid doesn't mean you shouldn't work on other things. Handsome men get laid. but if they're losers all they really have to say is "I get laid often"

who fucking cares,

women are the gravy. if your life is void of substance, and you focusing on women,You're essentially just settling for licking gravy off an empty plate.

[–]Glenwalk0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Whole post is good, but most of it I've heard before. This part though was eye-opening.

That’s why gaming women and PUA tactics and becoming a “Red Pill” man work incredibly well in the real world, but women who read about all of this on the internet hate the hell out of it and call it creepy, rapey, manipulative, and swear that it would never work on a smart woman. Because when they read about game on paper, it’s an action you’re taking to try to attract women. That’s creepy and could never possibly work, because trying to attract women is manipulative and automatically fails. It disgusts them to read about it and they couldn’t possibly be less attracted after reading that text.

In the past I thought they didn't like TRP because it was giving away their secrets, but your theory makes way more sense. In the early stages of swalling TRP (or just PUA's in general), guys pretend not to care about girls. When smart women read about it or see it in the world for what it is of course they'll find it pathetic like any other attempts to attract a girl. Unlike other 'romantic' gestures though, TRP tactics can be potentially hurtful to girls, so it attracts even more vitriol.

But once you fully digest TRP, it's not longer about pretending not to care, they just gradually shift to the peripheral.

I'm lucky in that apart from my extremely BP instincts I have a very high SMV. The instant feedback from TRP methods made it easy to get past the anger phase and right into the amused mastery/abundance mentality.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If you're busy doing your own thing, pursuing your own hobbies and suchlike, you won't need to pretend not to care.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If you don't approach shitloads of women, you dont end up super confident.. You don't meet enough women to achieve a decent level of abundance.. Yes if you get rich and achieve lots of successes women will flock around you.. But they'll be shitty gold digger types.

I think the best thing to do is chase your dreams, and your time off chase shit loads of women. Both of these pursuits are incredibly important. If you spend all your time chasing success you'll end up a naïve moron..

[–]nofaprecommender0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Good post. I read through it without seeing who posted it, was like, wow, that's the kind of stuff that's actually worth reading on here. Then I scrolled up to see the username and--no surprise!--Archwinger yet again.

[–]Killigraphy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Be desireless (avoid actively trying to get in her pants, women smell agenda like a fly to shit)

Be great (Everyone has something they're "good" at, work on that, become above average)

Be gone (After exhibiting your lack of desire for said target, and your proficiency at something you like doing, dismiss yourself, keep her chasing)

We are attracted to that which retreats us the most.

[–]crazytrpr0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

"Gentlemen: Stop trying to attract women and focus entirely on yourself. I know it seems counter-intuitive. I know some guys around here worry that if they just do their own shit, no woman will ever notice them and they’ll never get laid again. If that’s the case, you’re doing the wrong shit. Quit playing video games and eating Oreos in your mom’s basement while jerking off to porn every day, and start working out, eating right, excelling professionally, and learning skills. It’s hard work, and far less pleasurable than just screwing around all day, but you get a reward. Not women, a real reward. You get to feel like a badass every single day of your life. You get to wake up excited every day, full of energy. You get to love your life, which is far more rewarding than loving a woman. And by the way, women fuck guys like that without them having to do much more than just walking up and saying hi – your wives and girlfriends are fucking guys like that right now." Quoting this for truth. It helps career wise too, boosts your over all social status etc...

[–]sumdumguy-throwaway 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

Direct game seems to work very well for me. Maybe I misunderstand your post, but what is direct-game other than straight up telling a woman you like her? Isn't direct-game an attempt to attract a woman?

[–]ArkhamGTR0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You're probably really attractive if you can literally walk up to a girl and say "I like you" and she doesn't deem you a creep.

[–]twistedbrother20 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

The way to make a girl like you is to do the exact opposite. Look like you’re not trying to win her over. Do your own shit, and blow her off to do it. Be too busy for her. Be dismissive of her. Do shit that improves you and benefits your own life. Shit that makes you a better man, who's attractive to women, without actually trying to attract women. Because remember: actually trying to attract women is creepy. It’s manipulative.

I don't agree that we have to adopt these aggressive personalities and go out of our way to blow off women; you should naturally just not be thirsty and changing yourself/your plans for anyone but yourself.

Women don't like thirsty, they like the guy whose thirst is quenched before they got there.

[–]Dokkobro-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

Thirsty can be used positively in the sense of demonstrating ones drive and goals, so it's really not strictly a negative connotation. Needy on the other hand is what you're thinking of, you want to appear as if you don't have to ask ANYONE for SHIT because you either have it already or can make a phone call because you're fucking captain longcock. Everyone who's reading this is some level of thirsty or was before they got wifed to a good one.

[–]twistedbrother20 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

In this context thirsty only means for women.

[–]WaterPotatoe-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy

Stop trying to attract women and focus entirely on yourself. I know it seems counter-intuitive. I know some guys around here worry that if they just do their own shit, no woman will ever notice them and they’ll never get laid again. If that’s the case, you’re doing the wrong shit. Quit playing video games and eating Oreos in your mom’s basement while jerking off to porn every day, and start working out, eating right, excelling professionally, and learning skills. It’s hard work, and far less pleasurable than just screwing around all day, but you get a reward. Not women, a real reward. You get to feel like a badass every single day of your life. You get to wake up excited every day, full of energy. You get to love your life, which is far more rewarding than loving a woman.

You do realize you are contradicting yourself.

Why am I not focused on myself when I'm playing video games eating Oreos in my mom's basement? I might be doing what I want to do. Why do I have to be a jacked dude excelling at everything? Oh ya - to get pussy.

So essentially you are saying don't focus on getting pussy, whilst designing your entire life around focusing on getting pussy - and not necessarily doing what you really want to do in life (like playing video games or whatever).

There is little different between spending hours doing a website about a girl, and spending hours in the gym trying to build a better body to attract her. Both seek the same end result. Granted one might be more effective than the other, but don't kid yourself that you're somehow any less of a slave to pussy.

[–]TRP VanguardArchwinger[S] 9 points10 points  (4 children) | Copy

If the only reason you can imagine for obtaining that sense of immense pride every time you try to do something physically difficult, every time you look in the mirror, every time you wake up feeling more energetic than the day before, every time you get to your office and are excited about the day, every time people stop and listen intently when you talk, every time people respectfully ask for your opinions, and yes, every time a woman comes on to you - is to impress girls, then yeah. You should keep playing video games and stay out of the way of the rest of us.

[–]WaterPotatoe3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy

If seeking approval from others is what you seek, than great. Yet, there is nothing inherently bad about playing video games if it makes you happy (not that I do). Don't universalize your preferences.

[–]Dokkobro0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

He's saying improve yourself for yourself and the pussy will follow. It's pretty evident, and you're just arguing to argue. That's bad and you should feel bad.

[–]WaterPotatoe0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

You should feel bad for not comprehending what he said. Keep believing you're lifting pieces of iron for yourself and that playing video games is not for yourself

[–]circlhat-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

If you do something with the intention of making a woman like you that’s manipulation in their eyes. Note the italics – to make a woman like you. When you're trying to make her like you, you’re not really romantic, you’re not really nice, you’re just creepy.

I disagree, it comes off as you are low value and desperate. Remember creepy is just a word for guys with a SMV that is so low they are repulsive.

Stop trying to attract women and focus entirely on yourself. I know it seems counter-intuitive.

Because it is, I rarely get hit on while I get told I'm sexy when I hit on girls or message them online. You still need to learn and practice game and become aware of what women what?

Quit playing video games and eating Oreos in your mom’s basement while jerking off to porn every day, and start working out, eating right, excelling professionally, and learning skills.

Do you really think that was his problem? If he had of done all those things and still made the website would she have taken him back? A balance life is the goal not some hype up jock shit

[–]ThreadPill3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I disagree, it comes off as you are low value and desperate. Remember creepy is just a word for guys with a SMV that is so low they are repulsive.

You just said that you disagree and then in your explanation showed that you clearly agree.

Because it is, I rarely get hit on while I get told I'm sexy when I hit on girls or message them online. You still need to learn and practice game and become aware of what women what?

Nothing you said here makes sense, but I'm guessing you're using the example of online girls telling you you're sexy as an accomplishment? Focusing entirely on yourself doesn't mean stand in a corner and bob your head while awkwardly scanning the room trying to make eye contact. It means self amusement, and checking your intentions. When in doubt, always check your intentions. Understand the reason behind the things you do, and make sure that reason isn't to impress a girl.

would she have taken him back?

Who gives a shit? The very core of this guy's problem is extreme one-itis. "Taken him back" shouldn't even be in your vocabulary.

[–]Scott555-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

A single expression sums this up, and it also applies to economics, art, technical work, everything...

You can't push string

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is my fav post on this sub reddit , thanks so much this is BRILLIANT



You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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