[DISCUSSION THREAD] The Way Of Men - Jack Donovan [JAN2015]

2015-01-08T11:16:39+00:00

Some background about myself first :

I'm a contemporary cynic who believes in individualism, freedom of thought, choice and speech. I was a male feminist dripping in male guilt/shame, so with time I've gone to swing in the opposite direction, opposing anything that attacks masculinity. I don't consider myself a redpiller, but I do agree with many things of it (what aligns with the contemporary cynism and the defense of masculinity). I also don't have much experience reviewing stuff, especially in English, so let's see how this works out.

The Bad

I think that the first third of the book could have been compressed and it can be a turn off for many potential readers. All that "way of the gang" goes on for too long and while I see the point of introducing it, then explaining it, then connect it all for the ending part, I feel it didn't work that well. So, to sum up, I think the first part should have been shorter.

I didn't really like the ending due to how naive it is, at least in my opinion. With the exception of some apocalypse, there's no going back. Daydreaming about some past glories is not going to help, I rather see masculinity applied in different ways adapted to the modern world. How? I don't know, but I hope we'll find out in the next years.

The Good

I think that the middle part is sublime and astounding. Narrowing down masculinity to a few core traits, describe how they expand into bigger things, the importance of male camaraderie (which I think many modern men totally lack).

As I believe that we haven't really changed that much since we left the caves, what Jack says about the male and female behaviour, responsibilities, etc. is something that rings very true to me. It's hard to accept sometimes, it's really a pill that is hard to swallow, but I feel it gives you a better, a raw to say so, view of life.

The masturbatory aspect of our daily life is something that I can't deny at all. As a part time therapist, I know how common is for people, me included, to distract oneself from bad emotions with gadgets or other things (including sex). But that's one of the things I wrote above, social media, videogames, constant sources of entertainment, all those things are here to stay, we like it or not, so we should adapt and try to find out how we can get the best out of masculinity in our modern life. I think it was great to talk about this topic.

Some of the examples really help emphasizing the points (Rome one, in example), so he certainly picked the right examples to use. The chimpanzee v bonobo comparisons were quite interesting and I'm certainly going to be reading more about it.

My opinion of the book

The book is great and I'm very glad I got to read it. As pointed above, I felt that the first and last parts were rather weak, especially compared to the core of the book, the middle part, of which I basically liked everything here and I felt quite inspired by some things it said, especially all that male companionship aspect of it. I think it's my mind's way to tell me that it's something I need more of.

I think the way it's written can be very inspiring, mostly from its straightforward language, which I always appreciate. Sometimes I felt how Jack was apologizing for saying things about women, which shows how big the PC pressure is, but I think it ended adding charm to the book.

I'm not going to say this book has changed my life, but in my constant ongoing inner process, it has had a very positive impact. I'm certainly missing more books of the kind "It's a good thing to be a man" that don't rely on talking about women.

I have to say that I didn't like the last part because as I wrote above, I think it's pointless to think about changing society as it is right now, I feel we should adapt.

Rating and recommendation

I'm giving it a 8/10 and I really recommend it for any men who are in this stage of life when they wonder who they are, what they want and so on. Maybe you feel something's missing or that things should be different. This book can give you some answers or inspire you to try a rawer approach to life. But because of this, it may not be recommended for everyone because the pill is hard to swallow and the time for it may come in the future. I wouldn't have finished (or even started) this book 10 years ago. It was not my moment yet.

I also feel this book could be interesting for women who believe in masculinity or are starting to see the beauty of it without any rationalizations.

2015-01-06T18:53:47+00:00

okee dokee here is how i planed for parent discussions to work. this is going to be my example and i hope people follow it if not hey just at put the third and fourth sections: your opinion in it and recommendation/rating.

first category is "the bad"--this is where you put what you thought it was bad, in terms of book formatting grammar and perhaps amount of content or writer's writing style or whatever, like if you thought the author was repetitive or didn't touch on something much. this is really up to you, so no harm no foul. its opinion based with criticizing objectively the book itself, this contains opinion but not your overall opinion

second category is "the good"--this is the opposite of 'the bad' what you think the author did 'right' in term of how he conveyed the information, writing style, grammar, content etc.

third category- is going to be the lengthiest "my opinion of the book"--this is where you actually tell your opinion on content or the authors mentality, this is more subjective and really up to the reader to decide, this is where people will get to know your opinion on the book, what you liked, what you didn't agree with as a reader. what you thought it was interesting or bullshit, i want people to be as articulate as possible for other club members to see where they are coming from and avoid confusion here. and just do what they really think and your overall review or argue things that you thought were interesting or bs however and as much as you please. lets hope people don't get too angry with conflicting opinions, uggh i can just feel my opinion on rational male is going to be!!, i probably get cruzified into oblivion, but oh well, you have to hear where i am comming from, in its due time.

fourth category of review is rating and recommendation--this is important for future readers who see the club, in rating i suppose rate however you want although i would say in a scale of 1-10 ten being the highest as in regards to your overall thoughts and how the book is argued and whatever you might be. and you recommendation you have a another scale of 1-10 ten being the highest, you know a 1 is "don't even read the book don't waste your time on this shit", and a 10 is like "you must read the book it has potential for being life-changing material that you feel everybody should read withing their lifetime!!". i know the recommendation feels kinda dumb but the redpillbook is 'books for men' so might as well put the recommendation and at least give people an idea of what they are going to read and give them something to start from and being better on books to become more manly or expand their minds as a man, when they stumble across this thread.

TLDR---at least i want people to follow the third and fourth categories please! your fellow mod ipumplikeamachine :D cheers!

Mufasa15 · 2015-01-06T16:45:01+00:00

I have not finished the book yet, but I found that I like Donovan's definition of masculinity: is about what men want from each other."

Reading about the first few pages of the book reminded me of Law 18 from the 48 Laws of Power. Isolation is dangerous, when we isolate from other men we are risking our masculinity, even Glover talks about it in No More Mr Nice Guy, where he mentions that Nice Guys isolate from other men because "they are different", "they are not one of those jerks", in the process Nice Guys loose their masculinity because of the fear of having the "bad characteristics" that come with masculinity, and thus become less attractive to women and wondering why women always prefer the "jerks".

This is why we need to be "part of the gang", this is why we need to take TRP, this is why I think that TRP is the way of men. I am really looking forward to finishing the book.

2015-01-08T21:22:13+00:00

The Bad - There are times in the book where Jack drops words like 'fag' and stuff without any explanation for the context in which he uses them. They're very rare, but I would have appreciated a bit more by him on the function of shaming language among men and how useless policing your language is.

The Good - The Way of the Gang is one of the most interesting things I've ever read as is his constant refocusing on 'us against them' as a core function of the male identity. Greast stuff.

My Opinion of the Book - This was, perhaps, the best possible choice for the first book in the book club. It's fantastic in laying out the male identity, not just the ways we work between each other but WHY we work that way. The important core ideals. Too much literature in this space focuses on the 'evils' of women, and not enough of it is on the positive sides of being a man. That was cool. A great read, and I look forward to more.

2015-01-11T06:22:06+00:00

I absolutely loved this book and gained a lot of insight from it. For example, the concept of tribalism and the us vs. them mentality, is something I have been fleshing out myself recently, and it was very nice to see Donovan illustrate the concept so well. Humanity has always been us vs. them, whether it is my profession vs. your profession, my sports team vs. your sports team, my country vs. your country, or whatever. The job of masculinity is being the guardians of the edge between those boundaries of us vs. them. That is such a powerful idea for me that I can really understand and digest at an experiential level.

I also loved how simply Donovan laid everything out, distilling the vague concept of masculinity into basic core virtues. Applying them to myself, I can see that I have great mastery and strength, and decent honor, but my courage could use a bit of work.

I also really agree about the importance of finding your gang. I have been a lone wolf most of my life, and that is such a poor way to live. Men need to gang up, and I am at the stage of my life where I am hungering for a gang. This book has fired my motivation to seek one out.

Overall a great read, and I'm very thankful for whoever suggested this book.

2015-02-03T21:58:43+00:00

okay i am late, so i don't think anybody is going to discuss with me this book but anyway, as i am writting this i haven't read any other reviews just so that i can have a 'clean' review and not be slanted by other people's opinions.

the good: the book is not that bad, its written in a way you can't really get lost, easy to read, no spelling mistakes.

the bad: HUh i can't really think of anything other than he is probably talking right out of his ass.

My opinion: this is probably just me but while i was reading the book the only thing i was really thinking was POLITICS.

really this book is talking about politics, and how it develops. it develops with men, and tribes, the us vs. them. its all politics. and because politics that is going to be men demise, idk. the tribe us. vs. them was like how organically countries develop.

what i thought was, the author had to throw up all government and politics, it would be like back in the old days of men lead and hunt, women are nurturers. i doubt some sort of 'reset' in the system will happen, but if it were to happen, tribes and social circles will emerge so he is right on that, survival of the fittest, and that requires you to align with a tribe.

i see where the guy is coming from, a place of ancentry, but that is always has been biologically we need a leader, a social circle, us. vs. them, and it actually bypasses the cultural barrier, the aztecs, the native americans, the japanese, they all had men leading governemnts. A patriarchy. the guy favors patriarchy vs a matriarchy because monkeys? what the fuck!

i mean you could look for other options to see the future basing your opinions on other things, aka animal kingdom, yet i feel that this is book is flawed as FUCK.

anyway i thought that it was kinda shitty how he argued the book, its my opinion for those who follow the manosphere and redpill 'teachings'.

simple: the author has to argue via a point of view of evolution survival of the fittest, where the strong, the leaders or as faggets call it being "alpha", and the smart, it all works in a wild survival of the fitest, but now we have a politic system where our leader, doesn't have to be strong, or fit, or an "alpha" but rather you just go through the system, and then get elected to be a leader, in other words government is not really a test that the stronger or the smarter will lead but rather the ones that can work the system to eventually make it to the man-made survival of the fitest system.

patriarchy vs. matriachy, and how it looks like to humans is unknown, we are out of the evolutionary curve, we are concious of shit, the author installs some sort of frightness of 'women taking over' and leading men, aka the governement being flooded with pussies leading us, literally. i am not a feminist but it will seems fair if there was a law saying to have a 50-50 rule in congress or someshit for better governemt. 50% women 50% men. that way we have a fairer governemnt where no one gets opressed, BUT because politics, who gives a shit, only the ones with money will get their shit together.

there is something alson in donovan's book that is fucked up, throughout the whole book he argues that you , as a man, have warrior blood and violence is the way of men, and wooping ass etc. so he believes in holding your ground by fighting and having mastery of weapons etc. that is not true in current times, you don't have to rely on fighting and testosterone and adrenaline to feel like a man, but rather more on the fact that you have to pick what you want to be good at, wether that being something manly like a MMA, or playing guitar, your integrity and moral code shows in your work how clean etc. for those who ate the gotta be a hunter!, lets just say not even in native cultures every man had to be a warrior, you can specialize in other things that aren't preciesely considered "manly".

okay enough of that, the good of this book was the principles he conveyed.

mastery,honor, stregth, and courage, if he would of kept the politics out, although men found governemtns and politics, still if he were to keep those things out, the book would be good. basically those four principles can be found on all cultures of men all across, mastery: the idea that you have to be good at something not just be a masturbator freeloader, honor: the idea of fair fight between men the samurai example, integrity and moral code, the strength: men are stronger by nature than women hands down so by default its a trait of manliness courage; move beyond comfort zone this is the "hunter" side of men provide, take risks, protect your intrest at even the cost of your life if you have to.

one of the things i disagreed with he book was that the 'honor' part is too complex just to explain in one simple thing. jack belives that everytime your moral code or boundaries as a man, has been made by other people you have to always fight it, YET, it would seem that way but why? yeah you don't want to be taken advantage of because that is cowardly, however why would you retaliate to everybody there is a line of just let things slide and make things go smoother rather than have a complicated life. althought this book gave me the idea that you have to be strong when someone is pushing your shit too much you have to retaliate and say enough is enough, everyone has limits and is okay to retaliate especially when you've told people to knock it off and are clearly fucking with you. there is a point where too much pride hurts you but don't be a spineless ass either, a balance is best.

towards the end of the book, i felt that jack was flawed on some shit, he says to 'form a gang' aka a social circle of male friends and do 'manly stuff', like football or being a mechanic/cars or strength train. although he says to do some shit and hang out with males because at the end of the day real life men are the ones who influence you the most, on how to be a man, and what it means to be a man, so if i had to take an overall thought of this book it would be, be someone you respect, try to get influence by strong male figures, men who have strong identity, integrity, are manly, are honest, respected. who have mastery, honor, strength and courage and its all up to you to find or figure out who those men are. and apply thos principles to you. and maybe read more 'manly literature' from manly figures like shakespear, emerson, ben franklyn etc.

rating i would give this book a 7/10

recomendation its a good book for men, is a good book about what it means to be a man and masculinity and manhood, BUT use your critical mind is not that bad of a book but it has some fluff/flawed things that can't be backed up that well like the monkey examples.

tldr, if you are confused about what manhood, manliness, and being a man means then read this book.

edit: tlrd + rating.

psylord · 2015-01-21T10:05:23+00:00

my opinion of the book:

Interesting but a bit too wordy for my taste. I started to lose interest in the honor, mastery, and related sections. But there were a lot of interesting bits and if I had more time I'd of read or at least skim the whole thing. Interesting things I learned:

Humans may have adapted bidedalism in part for slugging advantage in combat.

Various facets of chimpanzee culture.

Idea of "hollow state" and call for formation of sort of neo-tribal gangs.

rating: 3/5

2015-01-06T20:55:33+00:00

okay so here we go:is gonna be long but fuck it! what did you expect from such a good book! also spoilers!!!

the bad--i can't really pick too much on this book, other than its just donovan's view but he says that in begining so...yeah

the good i thought the writing style was really clean and organized, the author argues points really well, he gives powerful examples, provides with good films that in a way convey human males in their masculinity, like Scarface, fight club etc. and good fucing literature like benjamin franklyn, emerson, among others, they are in a page somewhere in the book. He does give a good view on what makes a man a man beyond the dictionary definition of "if you can impregnate a female with your dick then you are a male". its really well argued and Mr. Donovan knows his subject he could argue it anytime, he is just well put together. so cheers for him for doing the research and reading material for me on what being a man is. the book is clean and its well written, no spelling errors that stood out to me.

my opinion--okay so first brief summary the book tells the point of view of Mr. Donovan's view on what makes a man a man!( can you sense the exitement already. book club is happening baby!:D)

those bieng in no specific order. strength: not only physical strength but also strength of character and how easily you bend to other people's opinions/how gullible you are, and if you are really gullible you don't have set strength of character and you don't know what you want to begin with so you are a, for lack of better term, a follower and not a leader.

honor: the level of commitment you are willing to go to protect and stand for what you belive for, your integrity your values, your morals and beliefs, loyalty, and what you stand for as a man and protect it, at times at the cost of your life and protect what you care for, kinda knowing what shit you will put up with and shit you wont that your limits have been reached that it requires retalitation.can i say this is fuking awesome because hardcore patriots have this that is how things get done and why we are here to begin with!

courage: how willing you are willing to step out of your confort zone to get shit done, the competence factor, not just "ability to move foward despite the fear you feel" but to push beyond and even 'sacrifice yourself for the greater good of the pack/tribe you belong to"

Mastery: how skillful you are at a certain ability/skill, it doesn't have to be 'manly' like hunting and guns and martial art, it can be whatever you want like sales, your job, or some other skill, but you have the ability to build competence on your own and exell wether with guidance or not, aka do something with your time beyond masturbating to porn!! there is actually a point where he argues against men and porn and in a way supports /r/NoFap which is actually a good thing!

first off i like to say that Donovan's view on masculinity and manhood aren't just the popular misconceptions of what it means to be a man, those being: the # of chicks you bang makes you manly, you money, you physique, power,his fighting skills, his dating skills, or how much beers you can chug down in 30 mins, etc among other bullshit we in current times determine as being 'manly' although we have a ballpark idea, and a mix of all of those, we can't really pinpoint what is up with manhood.

in fact, i think that people common conception of what makes a man is the amount of girls he fucks or the level of skill/confidence he has with women. and i have to say one thing, i love this book because it throws that definition out the fucking window!, i mean he does touch on it, but i like that Donovan's view isn't just superficial shit, is more deep than that, this is not a pick up book, is about what makes a man a man, if you aren't looking for that then look somewhere else. this book touches not only on evolutionary instinct of a man, which is to destroy shit, and build shit again, and build things and violence, adrenaline, competition, status, courage, pride, honor, integrity and the 'destroy the enemy' mentality and that sometimes requires to work together with our 'enemies' to get a common goal to work towards to, which is why men are so inclined to things like sports that is required competition, and skill, strength, etc. something that women will never understand because is in our blood as a man to be something and be better than anyone but yet have friends/ a pack to in a way support us where we belong and are part of and be better than them although they are our friends we want the best, we challenge each other to dangerous/stupid shit but we are men.

i agreed with most of what jack donovan's argued, he does have his shit together and really he appeals to men really powerfully, and i appreciated this book so much because i was also at this point in my life wondering "what makes a man a man?" type of question so this book came in at the right time for me.

i really liked how jack argued the findings of kids teaming up to destroy, and put aside the 'us vs. them' mentality to work together to a goal. I like this mentality because is competition that gets shit done, just think the race to the moon USA vs USSR and how that pushed the bound of engeneering, the atomic bomb, and basically every independence war fought out there is a competition factor that makes you want to win at any cost to defend that you were right and that you defended your ground come hell or high water its a pride factor, and i really liked that point where you push the bound and destroy your limitations on what you thought it was possible.

one of the things i liked was how Donovan argued how when women come to the competition is just destroys the purpose of men vs men is supposed to be, is not diffrent in a way but when women come to compete on our level the exclusivity and meaning of it is lost, and you can see this in current society where who fucking know what masculinity is supposed to be when women can basically do anything men can do, jack even argues that maybe masculinity is not even a thing anymore or who truly knows what it is or even if it was a thing to begin with, which is why he researched it not looking at what feminist bullshiters tell what a man should be, but looking at it from a historically level, what has stood the test of time of a man is supposed to be. he looks at native american tribes, the aztects, japanese men in feudal times, among other societies and deducts them to the four principles of what a man should have which all seems to add up and all men in previous generations had some form or another about the four principles he deducts.

in one form or another jack just truly believes there is a difference with gender roles, he seems to understand that women aren't inferior to men or vise versa they both are equal in terms or worth as a human beings but they operate in a different level in terms of mentality, we are equal in worth but diffrent because by our division of gender, either you are born with a dick and a gigantic pair of balls or your are born with a cunt and tits and you should go off from there, there is no uncertainty, the proof is in your pants! your potential isn't limited by what you hold in your body but in way social structures, that have been there and proved to pass the test of time, that makes you in a way just by being a certain gender is something that you are expected to do, like men do manly things and women do womenly things. that is just how it works and has worked for a long time.( i know this sounds kinda dumb and kindergarden reasoning but jack donovan argues it really well trust me)

one of the things that i found intresting was the chimp vs bonobo societies, chipanzees being a patriarchial society with males primarily taking charge and leading the tribe, as in comparison to bonobo society where females lead society. Donovan paints a picture where our society, at least in the US i suppose where women have been given so much freedom they'll make men pussy-whipped and passive as fuck just like bonobos who just follow their mother's lead and where men don't have anything going for them but to be led by women. i thought this is flawed somehow. i mean is hard to say, yeah femenist do want the self advancement but its hard to say, if a society like that were to materialize. i think it says more about men than about women, how weak, lack of the four principles, men have to be to let women just take over? i mean we, men, have to be really weak and build weak men to let this happen though, i know this is hard to argue it probably would take another post for me to argue this in its entirely, but because we just don't know that, i mean yeah we could use animal examples to see the future but we just don't know that yet, we haven't had matriarcal societies, and is difficult for that to surge to light because POLITICS, is hard to infer things, politics is complex rules written by men and even if women came to fuck up with that shit, there is a line where they are kidding themselves if they think they are going to get the double standard or perks/ rights and no reposibility, i overall don't hate women, i think they have potential but there is also a line of genderoles i hold and exclusivity things for each gender and no fucking arguing willl ever change that. and is also hard to discualify the potential 50% of the population just because they have cunts, is just hard to say the future.

donovan says that if there was a reset on the system, everything went to hell, like politics or revolution happened society turns back to tribes and 'the way of men' but he is discounting guns, guns give women the same 'power' as a man. so to argue that in todays standards is hard!

rating/recomendation i would recommend this book to any man hands down, specially if you need some guidance on what a man is and what masculinity means. 10/10 would read again :D

l0rdg00b3r · 2015-01-08T09:59:58+00:00

The bad: Towards the end of the book, noticed a couple of errors. Nothing that distorted the message of the book, just me looking really hard for bad points.

The good: The book itself was well laid out which made the arguments flow from one to the next, giving me the impression that the author went through many drafts to reach the final product we just read. The writing style was great too, a couple of times I couldn't help but chuckle at how certain points were phrased.

Opinion: This was a very good read. I bought the book because as a young man (21) I feel that masculinity was something that I was never 'taught' and a concept that I could scarcely define. Following from above, the set up of the chapters allowed a good flow of information, from the introductory chapters, to the virtues of manliness. A good question I think every young man should reflect on is the difference between being a good man and being good at being a man.

The use of 'gang' to describe men over the course of evolution was also a great way to frame things. The example of Rome and how the 'gang' formed an empire, eventually made up of warring gang factions, allowed me to better conceptualise the use of the term gang in the book and to relate it back to relevant personal examples.

For me, the chapters that really hit home were the Chimps vs Bonobos and the subsequent Bonobo Masturbation Society. I enjoyed the evolutionary perspective on masculinity and the similarities in social orders between us as humans and the species of great apes. People today seem to forget that at the core of things, we're still animals. It is important to remove the modernist tinted lenses every now and then and get to the crux of our nature. The comparisons between the chimps (our societal order in the past) and the bonobos (the present state of things/where we are heading) was very informative, although a little bleak.

The Bonobo Masturbation Society chapter really struck accord with me as I am still contemplating my future direction. As I turned these pages I could not help but reflect on my life situation and direction and feel challenged by Donvan's words. I especially liked his use of the word 'fun' to describe the way in which we simulate masculine desires and activities from the relevant security and comfort of modern living.

These two chapters alone gave me a lot to think about..

All in all, this was a very well written, researched and thoroughly planned book. I would recommend it to any man who questions what masculinity is and I look forward for next month's book :)

Title	[DISCUSSION THREAD] The Way Of Men - Jack Donovan [JAN2015]
Author	SE17
Upvotes	19
Comments	18
Date	January 6, 2015 1:36 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RedPillBooks
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/redpillbooks/comments/2rigfn/discussion_thread_the_way_of_men_jack_donovan/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillBooks/discussion-thread-the-way-of-men-jack-donovan.250964 https://theredarchive.com/post/250964