Just a quick thought that's been on my mind lately, but I think a lot of men have a very overblown view of just how much attraction/IOIs you have to get to pull.
You don't need her to suck your face off in the middle of the venue, you don't need her to do your every bidding/have an extremely high amount of compliance to pull. The absolute hottest women will probably not make out with you in front of their friends, it can happen but it's rare.
In reality, if she hold eye contact with you, laughs at what you say, responds well to your physicality: Doesn't pull away if you come closer, claps hands when you high five, responds well to simply hand holding/a quick kiss etc., that is usually enough attraction to pull.
Frying her circuits with rapid-fire party game will do one thing usually: make her forget who you are when you text her the next day. Extremely over the top party game is good, but only when it is congruent to your mood. There is no reason to force it when you aren't in that state of mind.
Only around 20 percent of the things you say/moves you make will be gameish. The rest should be reasonably interesting or humourous communication while moving towards what you want. Like I said before, if she let's you lead, if she responds well to your physicality, and simply smiles/laughs then you are good to go. There should be no inner need on your part to ramp up her attraction to the highest degree. That behaviour is usually uncalled for and will make you look like a try hard to the hottest girls.
Out of all the trp posts I’ve seen, this maybe the type of situation that is most realistic. I do believe that you are right about the “highest degree of attraction is uncalled for during many situations.” (Paraphrased). Have an upvote
This girl I have she seems so uninterested at times. I’ll look at her and still just and dull, “this shit again,” look. I’ve found if I just ignore her though and start watching some porn I’m really into she comes around. Before I know what that right arm has a full five fingers wrapped against my hog just beating away. The best part is I just wipe it off with some toilet paper or a towel and there is literally no conversation until the next time. She really knows how to touch me too, has variable tightness.
you watch porn and let a girl jerk you off?
gay
Who said anything about a girl? Why can’t I refer to my right hand as she? I would probably let you tug on that hog if you wanted to as long as you kept your fucking mouth shut though. Who would that make gay though?
this is some great 'agree and amplify' here
Right, it’s called being calibrated.
Those YouTube pick up artists are mostly just entertaining.
Yeah, over-the-top RSD-style game can be great fun, but often the best results come from the girl you had just simple pleasant interaction with, not the one you had fingered on a dancefloor.
This.
Personally, I've had the most luck with the nonchalant approach.
Basically, I just act casual, no trying to entertain, and communicate my interests directly.
You'd be surprised how often being cold, casual, & direct works.
You'd have to realize than an infield footage is showing you the highlights, the 20% of the interaction
This so much. They don't show where they stumble, fail and how many approaches they do before they find one that is worthy of upload.
It's such a horrible metric to compare yourself with as it's easy to think you did everything wrong when you aren't over the top entertaining and have the girl swooning for you.
What more could you ask for than these signs right here? I feel like any social adept person would recognize these as signs of attraction, especially in context.
i agree.
I actually go with the Todd valentines definition of a girl being interested which is that her attention is on you.
if she hasn't left. then she's down.
i've had pulls where the girl literally gives me barely any indication she's into me other than just listening attentively to me. then she gives me like a tiny little bit more reaction than that every 10 minutes or something. other than that it's just casual convo with a lot of eye contact.
the biggest IOI in a nightclub or daygame etc. is that she's give you her full attention IMO.
but furthermore, A LOT of this stuff you figure out from just good old experience.
This is wonderfully clever, thank you.
Can you please lmk where to look and find more info on this?
just look up todd valentines game stuff
Yes. Do less. Less is always more with women.
A lot of guys think they have to do more in order to ensure a girl likes them. It can come off as approval seeking and basically try hard.
A few days ago, I had this stunning girl in one of my classes opened me. I've learnt to read IOI's pretty well. She's incredibly hot, and I was ready to approach her after class.
She was sending me the IOI's though, and I knew I was in. I tried turned into aloofness, detachment and doing a lot less.
Thus other guy was sitting next to her, and talking her ear off. As soon as class finished she bee-lined right to me.
A quick conversation afterwards, a little tease, boom number close.
I've sent three messages since. One to say it was good meeting. Another to tell her to meet me in the city. She's away until Thursday, but asked if I'm free anytime after to let her know. So a third to co firm I'll text next week.
Do less. Read feedback. I learnt that every time I 'try' the results weren't good.
As U\MattyAnon has said, women are attracted to aloofness, disinterest and outcome independence.
Polarize, make intentions clear, see if she's fuck yes or no.
You're a high value male. High value men don't waste time getting women to like them. We take what we want.
I 100% agree. Less is always more. I tend to be extremely low investment and very low energy. And the little effort I do put in is to get her in my frame and make small plays here and there to get to the escalation part. Make her do the work. That way she is chasing you rather than the other way around. They have to be made to feel that they chose you.
Yeah, exactly. It's an energy thing for me. Very low investment in her liking me.
I do a lot to show her my frame...but I'm extremely casual and detached with wether she enters it or not.
It's not something I like to analyse, because it gives too much energy to it.
'This is what I want...but I don't give a shit about impressing you in order to give it to me'.
Do you think aloofness/disinterest is the way to go after attraction is already established?
Specifically in a FWB situation where you know the girl has feelings for you, you've already screwed a few times. Isn't being aloof then too much of a neg? And she has mentioned already that she cares about me in a subtle way, I didn't say anything about that. I should let her know that I care about her too (after I make her say it again) otherwise it's too much of a neg again, right?
Aloofness after you’ve hooked up is even more fun. You got so much room to play with and push the buttons if you wish
glad someone said this.
dudes be past the attraction phase within a few minutes but keep running all this excessive game for like THE WHOLE INTERACTION.
makes you look very low value and will either blow your set, cause you a shit ton of resistance at every waypoint in the interaction, or lead you to the classic situation where you bring the girl home and you get about 20 years of LMR.
but tbh, more than anything overdoing attraction stuff just makes you look like a try hard and frankly just is not cool, makes pick up look cringy.
so basically once you hook the set, chill out and conversate then amp it up whenever it's kind of burning out, rinse and repeat till you pull on a high note.
although saying all that, I tend to do A LOT of self amusement, pretty much the whole time but it's coming from a place of "i don't need to but i want to because it's the only way i'll have fun cos these girls be hella boring". if you do it form that place then it will actually work. but that's usually not the place dudes be coming from.
This guy gets it. Overdoing attraction is itself unattractive.
The thing a lot of guys lack, though, is self belief. They think they need to ramp up game, because it's game the women are attracted to.
Fuck, I reached a point where I didn't have the tolerance or time for women's bullshit. I Definitely didn't have patience to try and get a girl to like me.
I'm direct, assertive, get to the point quickly. In her language, of course.
She's either fuck yes or no, and you learn to read it pretty quick. Outcome independence, prize, abundance.
the truth of the matter is that no amount of game is gonna get around the fact that you believe you're inadequate.
feeling good about yourself + game = a lot of sex
feeling bad about yourself + game = a lot of rejection, frustration and very very occasional sex with 6s
Yes, exactly. This is why Red Pill teaches to actually become a man of high value.
Everything shifts when you do. Or it did for me, anyway.
There is a discrepancy, otherwise. A lack of true integrity. It's what PUA's try to make up for.
I'm not at all trying to sound egotistical or self-righteous, but things really began to change when I actually become higher value, better body, and had accomplishments.
I realised I had no tolerance or patience left to game in order to win approval/affection/validation.
Work. Work really fucking hard to keep moving up. It'll pay off more than learning perfect game.
i agree and disagree.
i agree cos obviously that's good stuff to do.
i disagree cos if you do all that stuff but still have the wrong inner beliefs about yourself you just become the rich accomplished fit and healthy beta.
alpha is a mindset as rollo always said.
Anyguy can be alpha if he has the mindset of an alpha.
you just gotta believe you're enough and that no opinion or circumstance can affect that. if you believe that, then you'll give no fucks and come off like a dude who gives no fucks
I agree. It's a lot easier to believe you're enough, though, when you've accomplished things other guys haven't, hit goals and have proof to back your mindset up.
In no way am I arguing with you. Of course without inner self belief, you're just a high beta.
The right mindset, though, is easier to achieve the more you prove yourself to yourself.
Inner game is all you need for the mindset. I don’t really believe beta and alpha are a strict dichotomy though. That said, there are a ton of appeasement beta traits men should avoid at all costs when working on pulling women.
I used to worry about getting good with the RSD and PUA stuff, but I stopped caring to read about those tricks when I turned my focus to actually making myself better. All I care about now is working hard to raise my SMV through body, mind/accomplishment and some style. All most men need is to work hard on their outer SMV, inner game and frame, and develop some sensible social calibration. The rest is just gilding the lilly.
Now what if you're me; feel fantastic about yourself but mediocre game haha
Feeling good about yourself is game though bro! Feeling good about yourself and inner confidence is also apart of game and how it works is the thing. It’s just not emphasized enough, because usually it’s assumed this is already known. As far as saying the right thing and saying the perfect thing to a girl and the interaction going smoothly, that’s also part of it. The sad thing is, a lot of men think game is evil or bad because it’s not being straight forward with a girl, but here’s the thing, when a girl wears make up to look better and spends all this money on cosmetics to look good that’s apart of her game!
yeah tbh in my opinion game is the 90% inner game/ beliefs + the 10% knowing how to neg, push pull, lead, etc.
Overgaming.
Also:
Good to remember. You want to chill out the interaction, but not completely, still give her spikes every now and then.
yeah you can't just become a limp dick either.
but to be honest the best thing for this shit is to do what rsd talks about... Identity level change.
make your whole personality the charming, spontaneous type so then you don't need to spike, comfort, this, that, the other etc.
just become that guy who does this shit naturally. be game, don't do game
Push/pull on an emotional level.
A lot of guys want to show push pull only through language.
Say something charming, then say something kinda jerk.
But by talking, you show validation/attention.
Sometimes you actually just be aloof/disinterested. Then interested.
You know she's chasing when SHE starts the convos/asks questions. She's trying to get you emotionally invested again.
"Sometimes you actually just be aloof/disinterested."
so fucking real. I do this all the time where you open a girl and be charming as fuck for like 30 seconds then just put your attention elsewhere. and if she got a positive experience in that 30 seconds then she will damn near every time be trying to get your attention back.
although, i prefer to do this in situations where it's natural like a music concert, rave or festival or something where there is actually something else to put your attention on. It's a technique that the environment lends itself to. If i'm in a bar or club gaming it up though i don't really bother. still it's powerful stuff.
it's one of those icing on the cake techniques IMO, but most of your results are gonna come from the bread and butter approach of just having the right beliefs and having fun the interaction.
Yep. There is an art to it. You still have to engage/initiate.
A lot of attraction happen pretty much instantly/first 30 seconds. A lot of guys don't realise the girls mind is either fuck yes/no/maybe by that point.
That's where the aloofness and disinterest comes in. Gives her a chance to chase a little.
Also, for myself it's not all about game. I'm truly over having tolerance for bullshit, or patience to try and get a girl to like me. I'll initiate, then back off and ask for a number. She's either yes or no. I'll show her I have confidence to approach, not intimidated, say a couple challenging/funny things about her...boom, ask for number.
It's also my internal outcome independence and abundance.
This is my basic stance with women though, almost everyone of them I talk to, and when it is a girl that isn't boring for me I just get oneitis. Need to get out there more and get that abundance mentality, but I like to see I'm not alone in that last paragraph and that it is not wrong.
the key to avoiding oneitis IMO is 2-fold
firstly and this is the key part: internalize the belief that "there's no reason why you right now as you are, is not enough". and this is true btw, if you really think about it, what reason is there taht you are not enough. I mean i'm sure you've accomplished many things in your life (money, sex, fitness, academia, validation) where you thought "when i get this i'll finally be complete". But when you got these things you never did feel complete, you felt pretty much the same. so clearly nothing external can complete you. Furthermore, I'm sure plenty of negative stuff has happened in your life like dissaproval, loss of people, bad times etc etc. but here you are still alive and kicking so clearly none of these bad things can really take anything away from you.
This is how I think and can be summed up with "there's no reason why I'm not enough".
this will stop oneitis cos if you already know you're complete then the idea of a girl having anything you neeeeed is just silly cos there's actually NOTHING that you need, oneitis can't even be a thing at this point. This sounds like some zen shit to believe and it is but at the same time it makes perfect sense on a practical level based on my experience.
NOW the second key to not getting oneitis IME is to get that girl who gives you everything you could want... and be sat there with her in bliss after sex... but then realise that that void you feel inside yourself is till there just barely being suppressed by her. but ultimately you still feel that lack inside cos like i said, nothing external can complete you.
So it turns out that oneitis is just a symptom of your constant feeling that you're not enough.
if you don't feel enough... you're gonna keep having oneitis all the time.
I see, thank you for elaborating. You gave me a new perspective, and the timing of it amazes me tbf. This last month I feel like I have been washed with a massive wave of self-realization. My brother seems gone unfortunately, and a friend of mine was in a coma recently for nearly drowning (he is alright). These things really made me feel mortal and things I thought were important to me vanished into thin air in the blink of an eye (lust,greed,etc).
For the first time in my life I feel like I don't give a fuck what happens and imma just do me. This sub has been incredible for me ever since I found it.
Or, just approach more women and create more options. Easiest way to avoid oneitis is to have options.
ehhh, can't fully agree with you there cos honestly i for example had strong oneitis for my main chick even while fucking other better looking girls on the side. I gave not one fuck about the side chicks who were all equal or better looking than her, but i cared wayyyyy too much about my main chick. cos i really really dug her as a person.
the newbie type of oneitis where you just fall in love with the first hot girl, can be fixed by options
but i think for that kind of oneitis where you legit dig the girls personality, the only way to get around that is to have the correct inner beliefs and frame so you just never get too attatched full stop.
Yeah, I get it. It can be tough. It's the battle. Being RedPill doesn't just take away humanity.
Internal locus of control. There ARE other good girls out there.
This is correct.
You don't need to be constantly feeding her emotional crack; just every here and there. Then you escalate on the peaks and chill out to lock in the new position.
You gotta feed ‘em scraps, guys. - Alpha Male Strategies
this applies to relationships too doesn't it haha.
What’s the difference between game and reasonably interesting or humorous conversation?
I think one is kinda a “forced” way of thinking while the other just comes off as more natural and apart of your actual personality
A "game line" would be walking up to 2 girls and saying to the unattractive one that you like her style, and give a dismissive look to the hotter one. A "game move" would be to clasp hands then pull her closer to you and physically pick her up. IE., things that you do on numerous occasions that serve a specific purpose wheras normal situational communication would be commenting on the environment, talking about what bar you want to go to, saying her laugh sounds funny or anything that comes to your mind.
I don’t think going up to a random girl and grabbing her is a good idea
What if you bodyslam her though?
That's the thing though, alpha game is about allowing yourself some potential discomfort as you go to socially forbidden areas of interaction. On paper it might seem threatening, but a threatening vibe is good for alpha game.
Context is everything. If you approach a girl in the daylight from behind and try to lift her its creepy and rapey.
But if you are on the dancefloor, establish eye contact, reach out with your hand and she grabs it. Then you pull her gently and she follows, then its safe to assume you have her consent to make another move on her, like picking her up.
"Faint heart never won fair lady." - William Camden, 1605.
You don't just do that. You do kino' baby-stepping', testing her level of compliance (she is comfortable with holding hands, next she is comfortable with you touching her waist..), and if she gives you positive feedback (reciprocates or does not back away), you're good to go to escalate even more physically.
When you autisticly put it like that, sure, walking up to a stranger and lifting then in the air sure seems cringy.
You can do it if it's fun though and she's into it. Like I said, she clasps your hands, she is okay with you pulling her a bit closer, you say something funny and lift her up at the same time to get her laughing while you are picking her up so it makes it okay.
In a large portion of my one night stands I pick the girl up. Its basic leading, this is like game 101 lmao
All this shit works. People underestimate just how much this simple and seemingly silly stuff works.
I've had guys say 'wtf bro, you arm wrestle girls at bars and on dates?'. For sure, and it's had 100% success rate. It's been more successful than anything else for me because it's a multiple pronged sword.
It's literally fool proof. I've even used it as an opener. 'Hey, if you can beat me in an arm wrestle I'll buy you whatever drink you want'.
First time i pulled was when i lifted a girl, i never even read about these gamey moves until recently so it just came as natural / cocky to me. She went berserk after, lol.
In my opinion anything that engages a girl positively is game. I can’t exactly see where your definition starts and ends; not sure it really matters. Was just wondering anyway.
Game is simply always understanding the dynamic between the sexes and how to make that work to your advantage. You have inner game and outer game. Inner game is what goes on in your mind and how you view the world and your place in it in relation to those you interact with of the opposite sex. Outer game is how they see that physically in your interactions with them with the interesting/humorous conversation, essentially the science of words and your physical appearance. A woman knows within the first few seconds of seeing you whether she wants to have sex with you or not. Outer game just speeds up the process.
Game includes physical touch
Depend on the defenition of game you use. But it's basically just the systematisation of how you try to attract girls.
Yeah attraction is very much an uncomfortable thing. You almost want to make the girl feel comfortable with you immediately if you ARE attractive, because girls are often total basket cases after you get to know them
Great point. Sometimes when a woman touches me , I can go over the top with kino. When you’re buff and attractive, sometimes there can be too much kino since being buff already implies her attraction towards you if she is holding eye contact and laughing. Have an upvote for helping me see that angle, and I don’t upvote overly
clasping hands when you high five? I've never even heard of that
I do it often , it’s a great test to see how much she digs you
How do I go about doing it? Do I just give them a high five and see if they clasp my hand? Do I initiate the clasping and see how she responds? And when is it appropriate?
You initiate the clasping (you lead) and see how long she lets you hold her hand for. It’s always appropriate for you to try this if you like her cause it clearly shows your intent.
Think about it like changing gears in a car. Analogously what I mean by this is once you reach "high" in that gear, you start lower as you move up the gears.
Agreed. As for the one about conversations, I would say most would be the "normal" and typical conversation that is framed in an interesting manner, with 20 percent about some deep topics and banter that make you connect with each beyond the surface level and increase empathy and attraction, and the other 10 percent is the "game". That's just me tho.
This is timely, I tried running too much game on the last girl and got blown out. Very possible that this is the reason why. I have so much to learn
Assume the close. I agree.
Check often to see if you've closed already.
I believe you should want to ramp her attraction up to the highest degree possible, by spiking, and allowing basic things, anxiety and jealously are such good plot lines and checking often you see when to stop so you don't overdo it
You are describing major IOIs here. Your text would have been much more congruent with title if you haven't actually described major IOIs. I was expecting something more like: "When she is still there after 20mins even tho she isn't giving you much, you have a good chance to pull her". There is many shy girls who are attracted but still barely give you eye contact or respond to your physicality by giving yellow light.
I'm not dissing you OP but the fact that this post gets this many upvotes, tells that significant amount of guys are beginner-to-low-intermediate with game.
I thought the same thing. Those are major green lights. What else does a girl need to do to make it more obvious?
Living in Indonesia for 4 years really helped me a lot. In that country it is totally unheard of to make out with a woman in public - even in a bar or club. They won't even admit that there's something between you, everything has to be subtle and guessed at. I had one embarrassing moment when I made out with a girl in public on first arrival and never did it again. For the next 4 years it was all about reading subtle hints and inviting them to places with the right excuses. Also knowing how to get 'there' without talking about it directly in any way. The physical stuff and the confirmation would only come once they were alone with you in your apartment. Great practice.
Don't be a tryhard, what else is new? Same with negotiations. You don't come in showing all your guns. You just go with the flow and see if you need to pull the trigger.
I like this. The better you get at game, the less game you have to use. I think it's important at the beginning: you have to do gamey things to gain confidence, push yourself and discover what's possible. Push the limits of reality, so to speak.
Once you know what you're doing and have that confidence with women, they can sense it. You don't have to DO as much. You can touch her very lightly and she'll get it: "Ok, this guy's not fucking around". It's not just your touch, it's your whole vibe and tonality. And no, it doesn't have to be "alpha as fuck". It just is what it is: being fearless with women.
I think leading is about the most important thing you can do.
You should go into every interaction thinking "I'm good enough". You don't have to be perfect, just good enough. That's really it.
Attraction can be sparked enough in about 30 seconds after meeting a girl to move forward into building rapport. One liners get a bad rep, as they should. However, it’s concept is true. You can make a girl open her frame up to you very quickly.
I don't think English is your first language but I completely understood the points you were trying to convey and agree with them.
This is an unbased statement and ridiculous