Modern Relationships are exhausting because today everything is a negotiation.

Million-Suns · 2018-10-18T04:02:15+00:00

The winners are the flexible negotiators. CMV.

Or the ones opting out of this silly game.

IsolatedOutpost · 2018-10-18T15:58:52+00:00

Fuckin nonsense. No one "knew their role" - it was a fucking nightmare then too. You just hid it or beat it out of people who had issues. Why do you think so many older people from those times are such fucking terrible, broken sick people man. It was all negotiated then too, but with a whole different edge. You either fell in line, and suffered deeply behind closed doors, or lulled yourself into a false sense of happiness with it's own problems -- or you fought and ended up in treatment for shit like womenly "hysteria", or dealt with shit like the homosexual's sick treatment.

You're arguing from real shaky grounds in terms of what the past was like man.

Salty-Bastard · 2018-10-18T03:22:55+00:00

I agree. It seems some progressive coastal state women generally want to discuss every word or task and ultimately turn it into a power play. Maybe I've just been exposed to the crazy for too long but you can observe it in some of the users on this sub. I don't think it even comes from a bad place as much as an indoctrinated women always have to fight men attitude. Even if you are a good salesman, and I am one, if what you sell doesn't sit well with the other party you are building a basis of resentment.

Nodoxxintoxin · 2018-10-18T02:43:21+00:00

“So long as they followed the norms, they were guaranteed an identity.”

For someone who has always been an outlier, I’ll take negotiation over having to fit my square peg into a round hole.

KikiYuyu · 2018-10-18T00:51:28+00:00

Maybe it's exhausting because lots of people suck at negotiating. If it's done efficiently and clearly, it shouldn't be a constant hindrance.

phoenix_shm · 2018-10-18T02:58:00+00:00

I suggest listening to the theory posited of "Mt. Mazlow" about halfway in this insightful discussion / study...you don't build a house on shaky foundation, nor do you attempt to climb a mountain without enough preparation and/or support/resources...

When Did Marriage Become So Hard? https://n.pr/2GZlAiS

rhyth7 · 2018-10-18T07:34:51+00:00

I think it's better for humans to carve out their own identity and be who they want but maybe most are too scared or too dim to write their own script. We aren't even that free anyway, we still have to work and be what our employer wants.

IStumbled · 2018-10-18T14:13:06+00:00

Nothing is a negotiation (except for business). You damn American/neo-liberalist are crazy. Everything is intent, projection, feeling, desire. Go open a fucking book and free yourself from this deep dark place you’re stuck into.

Nothing is absolute or universal. That’s how to spot if someone is saying shit

AND YOU DON’T NEED SOMEONE TO TELL YOU WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO. YOU CAN FOLLOW YOUR HEART WITH JUST A PINCH OF COMMUN SENSE AND RESPECT FOR OTHERS AND YOU CAN BE HAPPY

EDIT: checked my spelling

belletaco · 2018-10-18T14:21:55+00:00

am i the only one who hasn't had to sit down and create negotiations with my partner? whoever sees the trash needs to go out takes it on the way out the door, i clean up my space and he cleans up his, we both earn money, he provides slightly more emotional support because i require more, we both initiate sex when we want. none of these things were discussed they just happened and i thought that's just how it's supposed to work.

legaladvicequest · 2018-10-18T01:09:58+00:00

There's no winners vs losers. Everything is a win-win at best or a compromise at worst. If you can't compromise and your relationship devolves to them making demands and you obeying, then you have a parent instead of a partner. In a healthy relationship your spouse will advocate for you because they want what's best for you like you want what's best for them. Let me give you some examples:

trash out - he does because when he insisted on buying a bigger trash can that has too-big bags, I told him that if we get the big can he's gonna be the only one strong enough to carry the bags... so I tie up the bags and stack em by the door and he carries them to the dump

initiate sex - depends on who's horniest at any given time; if i want sex i initiate and if he wants sex he initiates; i asked him just now and he says i initiate sex about 50% of the time

make the money - we each contribute, enabling the other partner to pursue additional degrees when they desire; in this way we make each other better and our value increases together in ways it couldn't if we were alone, speaking of loneliness

bathe the kids - don't have kids unless you can afford to pay someone to bathe and watch them for you; they'll ruin your partnership by making everything about a third party

provide emotional support - your lover is not your therapist, but you should be there for them when they lose their job or their parents die

forgive certain transgressions - if either of us commits a transgression, then the compromise is that we go to therapy together, taking time out of our day that we could have spent in a pleasant hobby to work on whatever issue is damaging our compatibility

InformalCriticism · 2018-10-18T11:43:44+00:00

lost our identities

I'm not sure that no one knows what their role is, honestly. I think women just don't like being responsible and being treated the way men have been treated in the past and today. This is why you see so many efforts and growing support for special privileges for women and making them out to be victims with no agency at every opportunity.

yet so many of us are so lonely

Only those who demand equality, but expect preferential treatment.

The winners are the flexible negotiators.

The winners are those who get want they want and don't give more than they are willing. This means only the highest quality people who meet those like them will win.

TriadFamilyTimes · 2018-10-18T00:57:37+00:00

Nobody knows their roles anymore

Well... That's just untrue.

Men's roles are what men's roles have always been. Plus pretty much all of the woman's roles.

Feminism did a fantastic job of freeing women from their gender roles, but will fight to the death to keep men providing for women.

DebatePony · 2018-10-18T01:58:27+00:00

Meh, it's not that hard to know your role in a relationship. Or ya know in life. It usually boils down to: Be an adult and take care of your shit.

BajaBlast90 · 2018-10-18T03:05:31+00:00

Ergo, each modern family is a wasp's nest of negotiations. Whose job is it to take the trash out, initiate sex, make the money, bathe the kids, provide emotional support, forgive certain transgressions (which transgressions are forgivable, which aren't)?......and on and on and on.

Can I introduce you to being an adult? Each partner should learn how to manage responsibilities- home, finances etc. Sorry to break up your Disney movie marriage fantasy. Life is responsibilities and negotiations. We have jobs, we have goals, we negotiate with everyone to get what we want.

There was a time when a wife knew her role, a husband knew his role and everyone from the kids to the grandparents knew where they stood. So long as they followed the norms.

You know nothing of history then, and only see it through rose-colored glasses. There were always shrews and manipulative women in history, as there was crazy, power hungry men. Not every couple played by the rules you describe, and it varied in each era.

Imsomniland · 2018-10-18T08:52:56+00:00

they were guaranteed an identity.

Post-modernity means we aren't ever going backwards in that area. You can adopt rigid marital roles and identities for your self and you definitely can find a partner who will share said ideals. But what you're wanting to do is for EVERYONE to revert backwards because some people are shitty at talking to each other. It's much easier for people to learn how to become better negotiators. In the olden days if you, personally as an individual didn't measure up to the stereotype role society wanted, then you got a fuck you. If you were gay, well fuck you. If you didn't want kids, well fuck you. If you were male, disabled and unable to be the breadwinner well then fuck you. If you were a woman and didn't want to be married, or have your entire personhood defined by your male partner--well then fuck you.

Yeah, it's much easier to improve your communication skills. Plus in doing so, you improve virtually every part of your life.

Mattcwu · 2018-10-18T02:16:21+00:00

Negotiation makes things better, if negotiation is exhausting, it's because you didn't learn it growing up.

ainihon · 2018-10-18T02:38:44+00:00

Traditional roles are harder to assume now that after just a few decades only few men are masculine, and fewer females are feminine. It’s like they wanna swap roles.

So far this is what’s in demand. An empowered independent female. A sensitive caring man.

That’s where we are.

Japan can be a sample demographic if you want, they assume roles so much it’s killing their marriages leaving 60% of their men not wanting marriage now.

While I do support gender roles, it’s just not the whole answer to the situation at times.

Eartherry · 2018-10-18T05:04:29+00:00

Women are better at what you're describing. I'm on mobile, but a study was done that proves it:

The latest findings reveal that while women are more likely to accept change in order to reach a goal, being forced to accept the fact that their system failed makes men flustered, which is why men will often rigidly stick to their original "system" even though it has clearly led them astray.

when men were shown a picture of a house with a low sun beside it, they struggled to tell whether the sun was rising or setting because they relied on the "system" taught by the explorer. However, women shown the same picture realized that the sun must be setting because the lights in the house were on, meaning it was more likely the day was ending rather than beginning. "Women have less faith in a system ... men like systems so they stay within the system even if it isn't working," "If you admit a system doesn't work once, the fear creeps in that it doesn't work at all and so there is a panic.

Barneysparky · 2018-10-18T05:09:29+00:00

I can count at least 5 elderly or dead now couples that I know personally who live under the same roof, and dipised each other, one couple (a friend of my ex's parents) were famous for living under the same roof, raising a child, never speaking to each other.. like they treated each other like they were ghosts.

Why the heck would you want that?

Gravel_Roads · 2018-10-18T07:48:22+00:00

Relationships have always been a negotiation. Compromise and negotiation are the basis for all deep relationships where two people rely on each other. It can feel exhausting sometimes, but I assure you, you're partner will inevitably feel exhausted trying to accommodate you sometimes as well. It's unavoidable. You're only noticing it now.

LifterofThings · 2018-10-18T15:56:16+00:00

I feel like all of this can be resolved by marrying an adult who goes "oh hey, that thing needs to be done, I will do it" instead of being obstinate over whose "job" it is. Keeping score is a surefire way to wind up miserable in your relationship.

captaindestucto · 2018-10-23T05:57:37+00:00

It's true inasmuch as commitment can't be taken for granted now like it would have been for our grandparent's day when people were expected to stick together (regardless of the pros and cons of this).

Men and women are judged by an increasingly long and varied list of standards now and ultimately the party with the most options gets to dictate what those standards are.

yasee · 2018-10-18T02:11:28+00:00

my partner and I are making our own roles (with blackjack & hookers). Navigating who does what feels natural for the most part and I definitely don't feel identity-less

I think it helps that neither of us are big on traditionalism, though

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2018-10-18T02:30:10+00:00

I've lived with four men and never had a relationship like this

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tiposk · 2018-10-18T05:08:02+00:00

There's nothing wrong with negotiation. Many people simply don't fit in traditional roles. Those that prefer them have the option of finding a a traditional partner. Anyone who spends a lot of time negotiating their role simply doesn't care about tradition and there's nothing with that.

N0blesse0blige · 2018-10-18T10:39:21+00:00

Good post, with a simple and clearly conveyed message.

Having said that: I know my role, and so does my sub. I don’t think she has once thrown condescending, passive-aggressive remarks at me the whole time we have known each other. She’s the nicest, sweetest girl. Not a single one of those incidents I hear about all the time from close friends of mine. Where their wives or girlfriends will wallow in contempt of them.

Whodunnit88 · 2018-10-18T11:16:53+00:00

Greetings aren't a negotiation.

View changed.

Shazoa · 2018-10-18T11:46:49+00:00

Rather than it being exhausting, I just think that effort and stress is more equally spread. If it was your role to do something and you had no way of negotiating about it, then you were stuck and frustrated. Now, rather than just one person having to accept things, we meet half way. I don't see how people can find that exhausting unless they are, quite frankly, lazy or unattentive.

Notarealfanofpickles · 2018-10-18T12:29:30+00:00

One of the many prices of freedom is the turmoil of choice and uncertainty. Granted, taking away choice in lieu of fulfilling a certain role creates safety in the guaranty of that role but I truly believe that as an American that goes against the very spirit of this nations history of breaking the mold of personal liberties. I never recalled anyone ever saying there wouldnt be consequences or that it would be easy. One of those consequences is that the whole country is divided in going through one massive identity crisis. But honestly, we've been through worse and have come out better for it. I'm not nessesarily trying to change your view but this is just what I believe and I hope it grants some perspective.

Sad_Virgin_Beta_Male · 2018-10-18T12:53:07+00:00

I wish i had someone to negotiate with

RedPill-BlackLotus · 2018-10-18T12:57:05+00:00

You don't negotiate with terrorists

BirdManBrrrr · 2018-10-18T14:51:27+00:00

We can no longer fall back on the traditional roles.

You can if and only if you find a partner who shares your traditional roles/worldview prior to LTRing, further vetted by upbringing, etc. If one wants a traditional marriage, one is likely to find it with someone raised in a traditional environment, likely religious, and with tradconnish values to begin with.

This is distinct from the "we want the same things out of life!" trope which informs endpoints but not structure.

And I don't care what anyone says about so-called "negotiation" or "we split 50/50" or "we're equals there's no power balance in my relationship", there's got to be someone in charge, leading the family unit, and providing direction overall, and in my experience the woman does NOT want to do it despite how liberated, strong, and independent she is. Plenty of people here disagree with that along with missing the nuance between leadership vs. dictatorship, or bossing vs. delegating, but that's another topic altogether.

Good post.

[deleted] · 2018-10-18T16:13:02+00:00

Okay so just adapt to it.

[deleted] · 2018-10-18T16:27:02+00:00

Usually, when adults are in a relationship, they delegate tasks. This is part of being in a mature relationship. Usually these things aren’t exhausting, they come up, are dealt with, and people move on.

i_have_a_semicolon · 2018-10-18T16:27:32+00:00

Man, you really seem to know how relationships went down in a time before we were all born.

How do you know there wasn't also negotiation back then?

VladMartel · 2018-10-18T16:36:51+00:00

You are 100% correct.

Was it perfect? No. But there was order and everyone had a place. What we have now is chaos, plain and simple, in an almost metaphysical sense. The family is the basic building block of society, and the basic building block of the family is man and woman. With that destroyed, society itself is literally unraveling before our eyes. If our species persists, they will look at our era as a horrific dystopia.

IStumbled · 2018-10-18T20:36:50+00:00

Duh thanks for your smart point. Of course, as everybody knows, man have penis, and woman vagege. Men have more muscle and they lose their hair when they get old. Women have breast to produce milk for their children. Duh.

But, if we are talking about the way we interact with each other, or about our general reactions to various stimulations, or about the way our conscience/intellect works, we are more or less the same. Furthermore, empirical statistical behavioural studies cannot be interpreted literally, because we cannot be sure if the behaviours observed are inherent to the female condition, or if they have been influenced by their social environments, upbringing.

[deleted] · 2018-10-19T00:30:35+00:00

I think one of the biggest problems nowadays with relationships is that no one wants to pick their own slack. There wouldnt have to be sit down negotiations if people saw something that looked wrong and just fixed it not letting in linger bc its "not their role"

I also think a big issue is empathy lost. With this new society its every man / woman for themselves.

"Oh ur a woman? You should be cleaning, taking care of the kids!" "Oh ur a woman? Im not paying for you - we all have equal rights now! "Oh ur a man? U should be making all the money and i stay home "Oh ur a man? U should be doing this for me bc I cant"

Yet ironically another problem is that we have to become much more self reliant and many people are doing that at an older age as oppose tp 17-19. In turn, living with their parents until 25-26, expecting their partners to be their fathers/mothers and think they are their own personal live in maid.

If youve been cleaning up after yourself it shouldnt be changing once u live with someone.

Random_throwaway_000 · 2018-11-11T00:24:40+00:00

What freedom have we gained?

TriadFamilyTimes · 2018-10-18T02:26:50+00:00

YASSSSSSSSSS

But negotiation is a skill. You can be talented at it, but most of it is learned.

The3liGator · 2018-10-18T02:40:56+00:00

Actually, they stopped being a negotiation. They became deceit. You must attempt to make the other compromise as much as the can for "love," while investing as little as you can. People can now leave relationships after using their SOs after using them because their feelings justify it. Relationships would be much healthier if we were better at negotiating.

Title	Modern Relationships are exhausting because today everything is a negotiation.
Author	darla10
Upvotes	74
Comments	185
Date	October 18, 2018 12:48 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/9p4edg/modern_relationships_are_exhausting_because_today/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/modern-relationships-are-exhausting-because-today.259401 https://theredarchive.com/post/259401