Another way of framing the point in the title is: you can get away with saying almost anything if you have the charisma and social skills to say it the right way. This is distinct from saying it and also having charisma and social skills to buffer you from the blowback--that will not always save you.
I shouldn't have to sugarcoat anything around these parts, so I won't: many of the men that come to these parts are average to below-average in social skills. This is just a fact, and luckily social skills can be improved upon, dramatically.
Combine this with the "anger phase", and the result is: many red pill types are sour and charmless.
The problem comes when we confuse the controversy of red pill truths with the controversy of red pill truths combined with socially incompetent delivery.
The former are raw and real; the latter are nuclear bombs of social death that can end your career or ruin your reputation.
As a result, it is very important to get this clear in your head and to get this right.
It is important that your public persona or public talks or writing does not appear unhappy, sour, spergy, lashing out, butthurt—if you value your social reputation, always aim to be charming, smart, funny, sharp, sincere. To most humans, the sour and butthurt are unbearably uncharismatic, unbearably uncharming, and if you want to make it in the world this is not the air you want to convey, regardless of how right you are.
It has been noted time and time again that in other forums or subreddits red pill truths can be upvoted significantly when slipped in like a Trojan horse.
The Trojan horse includes: empathic understanding of your audience's mental paradigm and playing to that while gently exposing them to a plausible alternative; not insulting your audience but making them feel intelligent and respected; avoiding in-group jargon like "hypergamy"; framing the point in a way that doesn't brutalise egos or make people feel stupid or spoken down to--among many other skills.
To recall an old saying from memory: Truth without love is brutality. Humans are intrinsically emotional creatures, not just women; we are not swayed by logic alone. It's naive to just lay out the bare bones of facts and expect to be embraced—you become detested for it with a passion you would not believe.
Example right now: You can be indifferent to this if you want--perhaps you don't care how others perceive you or perhaps you're too spergy or socially incompetent to pull it off or you enjoy being the heroic martyr. The mentally weak among you will say "blue pill post", or "concern troll", and ignore the points (do you feel a twinge of butthurt and resistance?) Note right now I'm doing the opposite of the above maxims, to make a point. I could have phrased it very differently and got the same point across.
If you want a happy life where people like you and forgive your trespasses, take this to heart:
Over time you forget the exact words of conversations you've had with people, and even eventually the gist of long ago conversations fade away. What remains is how you made the person feel; that's the imprint that matters.
To the best of your ability be someone who puts a positive spin on things, who enhances people; be the opposite of a whiner and a negative downer. The most brutal truths can be conveyed with humour and skill. That's why podcasters like Joe Rogan are so popular: they don't lie or distort or evade but they deliver their message with social tact, skill and humour.
The language you use is important. To give a quick example: compare "depression" versus "a little bit prone to a depressive temperament", and the more gentle blow of adjective nouns ("slutty") versus the brutality of nouns ("slut"). Resist the urge to shit your pain all over everyone else. To the best of your ability avoid focusing on the ugly parts of life; life is too big and too full to focus on the rotten elements of it. Ignore the irrelevant bullshit.
People become viscerally revolted when others around them advocate slimy opportunism and dark triad-type shit, it makes people think of reptiles and users and exploiters and they associate those traits with you. The result: social failure, you get locked out. Nobody wants anything to do with you.
The assholes that women are crazy about are many things but they're not downers. As cliched as it is, try to tap into the absurdity and madness of the world and learn to laugh at it. Meditate to get the butthurt out of you. Avoid/minimise sarcasm. Even Roissy's (Heartiste) writings contain charm and humour. Writing that is solely designed to puke ugly truths onto a page is revolting to cognitively normal people; it must be explicitly anchored to a greater cause or to bring something better into the world. That's the platform on which even the worst of tyrants rode to the top.
Great post. I see people get butthurt even here about having their keyboard vomit criticized for being unreadable. If you have a point to make, make it in an articulate manner.
This is the biggest thing I think needs to be heard. I've dropped both plates and friends for being incessantly negative. It's one thing to need to vent occasionally or if a serious issue crops up. However, if I can expect complaining, whining, moping, verbal backstabbing, etc. regularly when we hang out, you can expect me to stop hanging out. I have enough problems in my life, I don't need to add yours.
On the other hand, I actively develop and foster relationships with persistently positive people. Because, let's face it, they're a lot more fun to be around and who doesn't want more fun in their life? Bonus, if you hang around these positive, fun people, you're going to further internalize the attitude and become, if you're not already, the type of person you want to hang out with. This will help you in all social facets of your life.
What if depressing thoughts dominate your mind, like mine? I'm not too good at "faking it", yet I am lonely.
No one will want to be around you after a while and you literally will be alone. Don't want that to happen? Motive yourself either to not be that or to be what you want.
It seems against my nature to misrepresent my feelings, just to avoid being alone...
You're dissatisfaction with the world is actually misplaced dissatisfaction with your own life. The others here telling you to "motivate yourself out of depression" are showing a lack of understanding that is almost cliche.
The only way to become a generally happier person is to make positive changes in your life. They may need to be drastic. For me that was moving to another city to continue school after working a shit job for a year. New friends, new environment, new hope in the possibility of reaching your goals... I was literally becoming a different and very worse person until this change happened.
Life is inherently full of obstacles, but these will be insurmountable if you don't have the proper motivation. However, motivation is not something that springs from within you.
Motivation is a reaction your mind has to positive stimuli. Know what you want to do with your life? Find a convention for that and go there. Put yourself in a warehouse of other people who know how to make it work and are making it work. Then grab onto the motivation and ride that shit to your goals. The key will be to make big decisions (not rash mind you) in this time. Then write a list of the steps you will need to do to realize those decisions. Then break those steps down further and further until you have small measurable and easily executable tasks you can do every day. Check them off as you go. Keep meeting people and talking to those who are living the life you want to. Read forums, ask questions online. Anything you can do to fully understand the reality you're working towards.
What's your situation like? Are you out of school? Do you already have a job and it just bores you to death? Why are you lonely?
I think this is the best answer. I used to notice a lot of imperfections in things and complain about them, but a lot of it was noticing imperfections in my own life. I think you posted a good start to fixing it.
This man has the right idea. I used to be dominated by negative and depressing thoughts that came unbidden regardless of where I was and what I was doing. The short answer is that I left my comfort zone and made a list of things I wanted to change and then made a weekly schedule for myself that makes a plan of action out of the list of goals. Ive sputtered here and there but I can tell you... as my lifestyle changes so does my attitude and so do my thoughts. These days when those thoughts come (and they still do) the difference is they feel separate from 'me'. I let them pass over me. They increasingly feel like the thoughts of another person. For example I had an ex pull a false rape claim and I was nearly destroyed over it. Almost killed myself and (never having done anything like this before this) took a knife to myself real good resulting in an ambulance ride and a stay in a psych ward.
That person and all that despair that came with him is gone now. Sure I'm still VERY much affected by it as far as how I see / what I expect from women but I don't have even the smallest desire to harm myself anymore. I'm increasingly proud of who ive become. That said... wacky thoughts still come. Many times I'll be walking along and suddenly without warning my mind goes "you should really just jump off that bridge / throw yourself in front of that train, etc." when it happens Im like "wtf me?!" But I know it's just a thought. The thought is not me. It is not how I feel. It is merely an echo from a former life. A reminder of why I'm doing what im doing now (rp living) is SO important.
Maybe. I personally always avoid representing my negative feelings because as others will say - no one really cares about your problems they have their own.
2 things that help me personally. Not worrying about things out of your control. Also realizing that people aren't against you they are for themselves. These 2 things severely lower my stress; therefore, make me 'less depressed'.
As far as the fake it until you make it aspect - if your objective is to get a job you better act enthusiastic as fuck or they won't think you're interested. They don't care about your emotional level, but what they percieve about your emotional interest. Person cares about job, person is easy to talk to, I would work for / with this person, person will possibly work hard for me. In reality you in most cases just want the damn paycheck!
Here's some manufacturing/quality engineering advice.
Root cause and corrective action example
Problem: I'm depressed
Root cause: Obese, low on vitamin D, Intrusive thoughts.
5Why? - Obese 1)Why? - unhealthy upbringing & never learned to cook 2) Why? - too much fast food and microwavable meals 3) Why? - bad time management 4) Why? - school & work takes up too much time 5) Why? - no schedule and procrastination
Corrective action - Obese 1) create schedule 2) buy fresh foods 3) lift exercise routinely
Repeat steps for vitamin D and intrusive thoughts. If they don't work or improve revisit the root cause and implement new fixes.
If you are truly so far down the depression hole that you can't be positive at all, get some help, hopefully from family if they are a good support structure in your life. Otherwise, work on focusing on positives instead of negatives. I know it sounds both too easy and too hard, I've been there. It takes time, there are no quick fixes other than a drug haze.
Ultimately your happiness is your responsibility, not anyone else's. As a man, your best bet is DOING. Go lift, seriously it helps. If you can't afford a gym, look up some bodyweight fitness. Build, carve, deconstruct and reassemble, program, tinker, find something you can DO and see an actual result from. Your flavor of this is up to you but, visible results from personal effort are a big boost in ego.
Sans pharmaceutical solutions, the best solutions for depression are exercise and action. If your body is healthier you will feel better and more in control of your life. If you have even one skill you can exhibit competency in, you'll feel more valuable as a person. Keep building on this and you'll eventually forget to be depressed.
Also, get outside more. Seriously people spend way too much time indoors in front of screens. Get some sun and fresh air.
It seems against my nature to eat healthy and work out. I truely love and want to eat giant plates of pasta and play video games. However, such a low resistance to my basal desires has a direct consequence of being a fat fuck. So, I eat resonable portions of healthier foods (with the occassional embellishment) and go to the gym and lift weights even though it feels like shit to do so (much of the time). Over time I become conditioned to the discomfort and begin to not mind the gym or the rational portions so much, so the pain of beginning the habit much diminished over time.
Carrying this to depressive thoughts, no one is saying "don't be depressed" because everyone knows that such advice is nonsensical. Sure, there are mental tricks you can play to improve your probablity of not feeling down as often or lifting yourself out of it quicker, but we all know that sometimes we are just in a bad mood and can't easily get out of it. The advice being advocated here is not to share your bad modd with others. Just because you feel like shit doesn't mean you need to reach out to everyone around you and make them feel like shit also. It's not a misrepresentation, but rather a choice to keep some negative thoughts private. You keep them private because others are simply not appreciative of negative thoughts.
To give a more concrete example, I took a massive, smelly shit this morning. This is the first I have spoken of it, not because I am misrepresenting my experiences to others and living an ingenuous life, but rather because nobody wants to hear about my smelly shit. I am doing a service to my fellow man by keeping my shitty ass out of polite conversation. It's fine to have shitty thoughts, just keep them out of conversation because no one wants to hear that shit.
Lie.
WTF dude.
Lie. If thats what society demands of you, do it.
Misrepresent yourself.
Be a salesman of your own personality. Door-to-door salesmen have to sell and succeed, think they can do that by not lying???
Well then you're fucked. You can't expect others to care more about your life than you do. If you arent happy and you want to make a change do it.
I've been trying to improve things for years but hardly any luck so far, almost everything just never pans out. Despite college and trade school which were disasters for me, I still live at home for lack of money at 43.
Your depression is your brain telling you that you haven't actualized as a man. You'd be better off living in a tent than living with Mom.
Emo and self pity are just narcissism disguised as depth, that's why people resent you for your woe is me bullshit.
That's fine; sometimes your nature holds you back, and the only way to improve yourself is to go against it.
Take it from the ultimate RPer- Don Corleone Never tell people (outside the family) what you're thinking In other words don't always wear your heart on your sleeve. Being properly socialized means you can manipulate the impression people take from you by the attitude you project.
Some people are born with this ability most aren't and must learn to develop it.
You can do it, you just need to apply yourself and focus.
Listen to Rocky
And if you feel like it's too difficult to project optimism and confidence, don't stop trying. Don't give up, don't ever give up.
Edit: Added Rocky, Jimmy V, Godfather links
Then stop bitching about it on the internet and go get professional help. And if you sincerely feel you don't need professional help, then just stop bitching about it.
Get sunlight, get exercise, and find something in life you can feel passionate about.
Unless you have been born with a frown on your face, the depressed self is not your "real", "permanent" self. You developed that attitude over the course of your life. This is great, because it means you can take control of that and change yourself to something better.
That is not dishonest, people are doing it all the time, there is no "you" that you become once and stay that way for your whole life.
I USED to be happy, but eventually I wound up a broke 43 year old with no real life friends anymore (everyone drifted away) and no history of relationships or sex. who still lives at home for lack of finding an income despite college, trade school, and special needs job coaches.
The first step is: Take full responsibility for what happens to you, remove the powerlessness. There is great, transformative power in that.
read as:its too much work to actually try to improve my life. beig alone is so much easier ill assue its the most natural thing for me to do.
dont even try to claim introversion.
hows that working out for you?
Might want to consider you're ideas of right and wrong hasn't been good for you, and that you might have to rewire your thought process...
Unless you'd rather be right, than be happy
Well I was happy years ago when I had an active social life in my 20's...everyone grew up and settled down while I never did.
I think you did, but in your own terms. It's hard to get older without picking up some wisdom along the way
That's why you need to force yourself to change. To feel how you want to feel as opposed to how you do feel.
Motivation and having a healthy dose of positivity is first and foremost good for you and your health. The most antisocial person I know goes to the gym daily and loves his profession because it's fulfilling for him. It's one thing to expect the worse to happen and another to avoid working towards a better outcome.
You should really seek professional help.
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Perhaps I should clarify: Seeing a "doctor" and seeing an "effective doctor" are two different things.
So your nature is to be alone??? Stop making excuses. Start making some changes.
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Nothing odd about it unless you're using the word "positive" in regards to morality. I'm speaking in terms of success.
It will start off as feeling like "misrepresenting" your feelings, sure. But that's only because you've spent most of your life feeling either depressed or not "positive". It's all about habits man.
Break out of it. It will feel weird at first, but after having like 20 fun conversations with people, you'll realize that being fun will become "the new you". Your brain just hasn't adjusted to it yet.
The OP wrote a great article, about how we should moderate our tone when speaking to outsiders. But we are inside the TRP clubhouse, so I'm going to respond without pulling any punches:
If you truly believe this bullshit, get your ass to therapy. Now.
Find a practitioner who does cognitive behavioral therapy. They will most likely have you start keeping a mood journal. I guarantee, within a week or two, you will discover you have depressing thoughts far less often than you believe. They do not "dominate your mind."
By keeping a journal, you will observe much more hour-to-hour variety in your moods than you realize. Our brains prioritize the stronger emotions. They are perceived as being more important. We remember them. They stick. In contrast, unless you're writing it down, you'll forget about the 12 hour block where you weren't really emotional at all.
Your current beliefs are limiting you. Therapy and journaling will help you realize that these beliefs are false. Once you recognize them as lies, you can overcome them.
Stop feeling sorry for yourself and fake it til you make it. If you're not good at faking it, get better at it.
I always tell people that the world is constantly a depressing place and constantly a happy place. It's part of the absurdity of life. You choose which view you want to have. You control your nature, not the other way around, unless it is something clinical then it would be outside your control, etc.
One of the easiest things you can do is to keep a journal. Write your feelings out to get them off your chest, and then list the things you are grateful for that day. Could be as simple as "Every light I came to today was green." Positive thoughts beget a positive attitude.
More on it: http://www.thumotic.com/gratitude/
I do this every day and it's a good habit. I don't even keep them I just hit delete when I'm done.
Sometimes difficult stuff starts coming out when I'm being super honest and I feel myself getting really tired - like my eyes are closing on me tired where all I want to do is take a nap right there and then. I'll slog through whatever I'm writing about and suddenly I'll feel wide awake and feel like a weight has been lifted.
It's not usually that intense anymore, but when I started that would happen a lot. Still, I think it helps me stay on top of my game without having to worry about unpleasant thoughts rolling around in my head.
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If depressing thoughts are dominating your mind then you need to adjust the things you're thinking about.
I've gone through this - it really is your responsibility to spend your time thinking about things that put you in a better place than you are right now. It's difficult in the same way that pushups are difficult when your arms start getting tired, but it's also worth it in the same way when you realize you've worked hard and changed your outlook.
It will make tackling your other problems much easier.
sure you are. just stop listening to yourself. I mean, if you're depressed and loney, would you want to hang out with that guy? go find that other guy, the one who works out, runs 3 days a week, and plays squash on the weekends, or the one who is at the coffe house, studying for his financial securities course
Better learn to get good at faking it. Just learn to laugh and stfu. You can complain, but don't whine. Make it a joke or something and keep it to a minimum.
I had a chick tell me that she missed me. That she even missed my complaining about work. Within the same week, another chick said something similar. These were plates. But still... I felt like I was slapped in the face. I haven't complained about much since.
Them: How's your day going? :)
Me: (Thinking: Like shit) "Pretty good" what about yours?
I save my venting for deep discussions. I actually have a friend who is pretty miserable. I talk to her about my problems. Misery loves company.
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Yeah. It works for me. When someone asks about my day, I keep it short, simple, and positive. Then change subjects.
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yup. don't be negative. it's not a fun or healthy way to be.
Since I took the redpill I've been looking for a post like this because I have a lot of liberal feminist friends that would not take kindly to any of the new terminology I've learned. Not that it's necessarily offensive but it upends their worldview. Nobody likes to have their paradigm questioned/challenged. You have to convince them that they came up with the idea on their own.
A comment I copied from redditer 'vacuu' that I've read to myself repeatedly:
"Real truth isn't something that should be evangelized, and there is a good reason for that. People can only accept the truth at a certain point in their lives, and if it is evangelized to them, they won't completely understand it. It will get twisted over time, and eventually commonly be understood as the exact opposite of what it represents.
Instead, you have to wait until somebody asks. I don't mean explicitly, but when they're receptive and will sit down and listen. When they need it. When they start asking questions in general, then you give them the answers. You can indirectly probe people to see if they are in that state.
For everyday people in general, your goal should be to plant seeds of doubt. Ask questions for them that gets them thinking. Then one day they'll come to you wanting to know the answers. It will only happen after a long process of them thinking they knew all the answers but then gradually, over time, realizing they actually don't."
I've noticed that in a heated discussion, I have to avoid thought terminating cliche's because people will stop logically thinking about the argument and damn me to hell.
“Questions are places in your mind where answers fit. If you haven’t asked the question, the answer has nowhere to go. It hits your mind and bounces right off. You have to ask the question – you have to want to know – in order to open up the space for the answer to fit.”
https://signalvnoise.com/posts/3225-what-are-questions
inside language isn't meant to coerce people to your way of thinking, it's there to build a community among like-minded people, and increase the amount of information given in a short period of time.
For whatever reason, the girls I "date" turn out to be mostly really intelligent girls that have hardcore feminist leanings. I am always upfront and brutally honest about my ideals and what I believe about women, their nature, my role in life, why relationships are a poor investment for me, and so on, but I communicate it to them in a more nuanced and positive way, without revealing where I've learned it.
Almost universally (except for one extra crazy exception), they end up agreeing with the vast majority of how I view the world. That seed of doubt thing is a really important communication skill. For me it has worked the same with young earth creationists, same thing with racists, so on and so on.
Also, I think catching yourself avoiding "thought terminating cliches" is super important. Thanks for the comment.
Why do you care so much what other people think about you?
As men, we have the unique ability to be "an asshole" and still garner respect. Coaching your words in flowery language is a great way to appeal towards the logical reasoning sides of feminine men and women (ie: politician game). It's funny that you bring up Joe Rogan, because he will be BRUTAL with his language at times, that is the opposite of "tact" that you say he has.
You don't need to be a nice guy to get laid. If you view the red pill only as a sexual strategy, then this post is pointless, changing your language to not offend feminists will not get you laid any more.
You don't have to have charm and humor to get laid, you have no NOT be AFFECTED by the truth of the red pill. If you stand by your arguements, you will still get laid... even by feminists.
Unless you're just an extreme psychopath and enjoy the thrill of manipulating people subtly without their knowledge, well, go ahead and continue doing what you're doing. But it's not necessary.
I don't care what people think about me. I care about what they can do for me. And if I've offended them I'm not really starting off on the right foot now am I? It's Dale Carnegie human relations 101. More flies with honey.
I don't think OP is saying to never stand up for your principles, he's saying there' s a more efficient tactful way to do it and that's with more neutral language. I spent years not giving a shit about what people thought about me and my tone reflected it and it really didn't help the career ladder or the social network ladder.
I'm not trying to fuck all my liberal feminist friends but many I'm forced to work with and collaborate with and might need things from in the future.
That's extremely blue pill feminist thinking. You don't have to be friends with someone to get their cooperation or their respect. I'd argue that's the exact line of thinking that makes most women poor managers. Stop trying to be their supplicating friend and try to be an alpha leader. That doesn't mean you have to be an asshole, it means you need to be a man and stop being friends with your female co-workers. Be the man they want to follow and fuck, not the one that listens to their emotional diatribes.
You seem to have a very poor social cognition skill. Try cooporating with someone who doesnt like you and see how well that goes.
I am forced to cooperate every day with others, including people that I don't like, and sometimes people that don't like me. My job is much more social than most. I literally spend my entire shift talking to other people and telling them what to do, and other people tell me what to do. I do my job, and enjoy it. I don't disguise my language, use flowery words, or appeal to feminists. I cause no drama and am regularly praised for being "a good worker". In fact, my job attracts "naturally alpha" men to it.
The basic premise of this post is flawed when you have a red pill understanding. Attracting "flies" has nothing to do with honey, believe it or not. The analogy fails.
I see where you get that implication but I'm not saying I have to befriend everyone. I brought up previous blue pill feminist friends as a separate point.
I'm just stating that it's more efficient not offending every new person I meet or use language that burn's down old bridges. I certainly wouldn't condone trying to befriend every person I work with so I do agree with your ascertain; it's not viable and it's a feminine leadership tactic to try to be 'friends' with every subordinate/colleague. This tactic almost always comes off as shallow and it's another reason I don't particularly like working for most pre- menopausal women.
Bullshit. Your reputation is one of the most important things you have. There is the saying "Your reputation precedes you" for a reason. Your first impression you make on someone is one of the most important moments in that relationship, and many times your reputation is their first impression of you. Do not underestimate the power and reach of a reputation, it can make acquiring friends and lovers a walk in the park, or it can burn bridges you didn't know existed.
If you are independent you don't need a reputation in the first place.
Independent people are less powerful than cooperative ones or leaders. Both require social skills.
What do you mean by independent? Do you not have friends, family, a social life, a job, etc? Maybe if you don't have any of those things, and you're only concerned with picking up chicks you don't know, then your reputation wouldn't matter. Otherwise, your reputation is definitely important
The thing is women make up their mind about men long before they can hear about any reputation.
Reputation can only really harm you, not help you in most cases.
I suppose famous people would be the exception.
Independence for the most part is a myth. We live in a community and rely on others for everything. Yes some people have careers that they have to network way less and they are their own boss but those fields are rare.
Even if you're your own boss, you'll still have to communicate with your clients/suppliers/employees. There is no escape from socializing.
Dude, the only human being I've seen this month was a girl with the wrong address looking to buy a diaper genie... she was cute but diaper genie? Yeah nope.
I worked hard didn't waste money on women and retired this year at the age of 32. Plus it's winter here.
I won't get out to bump uglies till summer and I have one friend with his own kid to take care of, I'm all on my own.
I renovated my own house and no one has ever helped me with anything ever... when people hold doors open for me I stop walking and scowl at them.
If that's what you want in life, good luck. Maybe you should subscribe to /r/antisocial
Oscar Wilde — 'If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.'
Roosh is the first thing that came to mind. While I agree with most of his points in his videos, something about his tone and energy really throws me off.
On the other hand, Tucker Max's podcast series "Mating Grounds" consists of a lot of watered-down red pill theory and some blue pill concepts to appease the masses. Despite that, I'll always prefer listening to Tucker Max. He's happy and energetic.
I can decide for myself what is good advice and what is "lets say this so people don't give up/freak out/hate us" type advice.
Just an example. Good post OP.
I agre with your thought, but absolutly hate tucker max. He's the quintessential 'invinvible frat boy.' And I have no patience for the way he treats working people around him (I don't shit on a hotel floor, because that poor asshole cleaning it is trying to feed his fucking family)
Fuck that guy
What? Invinvible is not a word and 'invincible' frat boy doesn't make sense
it's the kind of guy who has had a great life, devoid of concequence or hardship, completely unaware that others wern't so lucky. Does no respect the 'common' working man, and goes out of his way to demean their working lives, because it amuses him.
I just didn't want to type so much, at least thats the impression I got from reading his tripe
Dude, I see what you're saying. But you should listen to his podcast. It's 100% different than his writing. That's what I'm referring to. He's very respectful to his guests and co pod-casters.
Yeah. I want arguing that... I'm just amplifying on the point,
roosh writes a tic that puts him on the autism spectrum. His audience is borne out of the fact that he's prodigious and was one the first to market, so to speak.
I always though mystery, Neil Strauss, and Tyler durden were the first to market?
Though I haven't kept up with a lot of history, I may be mixing things up
as far as game 2.0 the web goes, Roosh has been around since 05 or 06 I'm fairly certain.
ah, I started PUA in the late 90s, so I guess I miseed out on the middle years
Conversely, I fucking love that. Too bad not many share my love for bluntness. I'm a firm believer in "You're not entitled to an opinion, you're entitled to what you can defend", and few things make me as giddy as someone being blunt (and right) as fuck and leaving the opponent resorting to ad hominem bullshit.
A rock solid frame and ability to spout truths as if they are pure Gospel helps as well.
I have had considerable success talking about TRP with friends, family and even to a much lesser extent in my classes.
I can use words like the feminization of education, and the extraordinarily unfair divorce laws, and even (although not in class) the FACT that women lie all the time- especially about anything related to sex. I talk about women outliving men, women having more disposable income and still getting special preferences. I talk about the marriage strike and ask my classes what the average man gains from marrying the average woman. Then I just sit down and let the hamsters run wild.
If you stick to demonstrable facts with a rock solid frame I think it works.
A top down approach when introducing people to RP ideas is essential for sure.
This post is very useful, and a lot of people have misinterpreted it. They think you're saying to go ahead and be angry and alpha, that as long as you disguise yourself correctly, you can slip in and subvert the machine that is feminazism.
These kinds of thoughts shouldn't need to be a trojan horse. The visceral reaction that people get to red pill "truths" presented poorly should be a big tell there. It should clue you in to one of several things:
1) You suck, or 2) You're wrong
It would be worth considering some self-reflection by some of the red pill followers. So many of the devotees talk about women and their irrationality, only to turn around and have some kneejerk emotional reaction to something they see on TwoX. I don't get how people can miss the double standard.
So I get your point. You need to be a generally positive person to be received well, no matter what your viewpoint.
I couldn't agree more. I really do want to take the time and look up the TED talk, showing the actual benefits of the scientific method, and what separates it from all others, there are so many correlaries to the pseudo-science BS that people in here have all the time.
You don't have to sell RP, for a man, it basically sells itself. all the armchair anthropology is just circlejerking
I'd say there are a lot of really useful principles TRP holds, but it is also couched in some less-than-helpful stuff. There is a lot of real work out there that does not agree at all with the notion that we as humans evolved to have "traditional values." I'd highly recommend the TEDtalk Christopher Ryan: Are we designed to be sexual omnivores? for anybody interested in a dissenting opinion.
I can't stand pseudoscience and bullshit facts from anyone, especially from people I have a mind to agree with (like the TRP).
I've had temp bans her before by calling it out.
I remember way back when that report on fruit flies gave proof that women were cheating sluts or some other nonsense.
I coiuldn't agree with you more.
Man I violated this rule so many times in my life. My younger sister taught me this rule 3 weeks ago and she used her talent show as an example.
She stated that not many people came to the show, but whenever she talked about it with someone she stated that it was an "intimate event." as opposed to not many people came out. I am used to stating things how it is bluntly but because of the job search, l learning how to say everything positively whether it was, whether it wasn't. Great post OP.
I went on 20 interviews and learned this lesson the hard way. On the plus side, the last few went extremely well when I got the hang of it. Tact, spin, and situational awareness.
nice. I've also gone through 4 interviews. My main problem was that I was bashful, and lacked confidence and enthusiasm. I was ok tactfully though. Always gotta sound excited in life otherwise people turn you away even if you got the goods.
yea the enthusiasm is something I had to try really hard to fake after receiving feedback from a mock interview. Eventually, I was even able to become enthused, although that came towards the end when I was crushing the interviews. I don't mean tact in that I would randomly spout out curse words in the middle of the interview, I mean tact in that I wouldn't know how they were looking for me to frame my answers...now I do.
A lot of people want to be critics instead of being diplomatic, then they wonder why people don't like them. Word things as constructively as you can. You might still make enemies but at least your conscience is clear and you pretty much have the high ground.
because a critic is easy. Creating is hard. Sidebar people, never argue, because even if you win, the other party will resent you for it anyways.
Its why I like the femenist frequency example. She talked a lot of shit about video games, then after all that waste, the best she could come up with was "Prince of Persia, MS Pacman edition"
This. I work in a call center (not the kind that makes cold calls) and even in every day conversation this makes a difference. Other people I work with come off abrasive and rude when they "state the facts," especially compared to others including myself that add a touch of honey to the pot which keeps our customers happy.
I adopted this type of speech several years ago when the "cold hard truth" was getting me yelled at on a daily basis. It also affects the meaning of what you say as well. If I were to ask someone "Why are you so depressed today?" as opposed to "Why are you acting so depressed today?" The first example implies that they are indeed depressed whereas the second example simply describes their current actions as being depressive in nature. Making 1 an accusatory question that targets them as a person and 2 a question that assumes the actions are temporary and not "a part of them."
Thanks for reading.
OP is 100% correct, presentation is (almost) everything.
To help unpack all this a little bit:
An important part of presentation is not putting the listener on the spot. This is one reason arguing (with a feminist, or with anyone) can be pointless. People are attached to their beliefs. When you question a strongly articulated belief, you are basically saying to someone that you are challenging their identity. Throwing down the gauntlet is not the way to win hearts and minds. The listener feels like what is going on is an attack. If you can dial it down from argument to friendly discussion, the odds of being heard are much greater.
I further posit that because woman to woman conflict is more indirect and subtle, any outright in-your-face disagreement is taken as hostility regardless of its intent. This is projection and solipsism on the part of a female listener - she assumes you are like her, and she would only be openly disagreeable with enemies. In arguments, women will resort to spurious accusations with intent to cause emotional harm - whether they are true, fabricated, or conjecture. Women will thus tend to automatically ascribe reduced truthfulness to enemies. An argument is not to come to truth, it's a contest of power. It's how they act, so it's how they expect you to act. And it means that open disagreement may not be taken well.
So instead of simple, clear statements likely to be taken as a frontal attack and signifying the presence of an enemy, subtlety is required. JackGetsIt writes in one of the replies here about the teacher appearing when the student is ready ( aka timing is everything). He's right. He also writes about Jedi Mind Tricks, the subtle ways you can cause people to question their beliefs. Also pure gold.
A further method is to make sure you offer validation for the person and their opinions. A little stroke and a way for them to retreat from their position with honor go a long way. "Gee, I can see how any good person such as yourself would feel they have to do something about the rape epidemic, if one in five [four? all women? whatever feminists are spewing today] were raped. But here's the thing: those statistics you were told came from a study of only two colleges, counted any sex after any alchohol as rape, included kissing and fondling as rape, and ... (gently debunks the propaganda)."
So you have two possible presentations: No, you're wrong (threatens ego, feels like attack - both causing your points to be discounted) vs. you're sweet and caring, but here are more considerations that were kept from you (or which are newly uncovered facts, or which are not widely known, or whatever). Which do you think will be easier for someone to swallow?
So here's the problem with this. It feels phony when you do it, it seems like pandering. This approach seems to value harmony above truth, feelings over facts, decorum above laying out your case as effectively as possible. People, you think, should be stronger than that. Well, they aren't always. Think of this as being a gentleman. Think of it as exhibiting concern for someone else's feelings, without being untruthful and while still delivering your message. And that's the heart of it - you have to do this with integrity. When you strangle bullshit with kid gloves, you're still killing bullshit - you're just not upsetting anyone when you do it, so people actually come to see it your way.
So that's my two cents, buried in two hundred thousand words.
"Prioritizing feelings over facts and decorum over stating your case as clearly as possible" shamelessly paraphrased from a Molyneux video and repurposed. Thanks Stefan!
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I can brevi-fy that
Tact is important.
Until ten minutes ago I used to think I was delivering RP truths or my opinion about a thing in an effective way, since I was appealing to logic and how X subject simply made sense. I'd say many times I could convince the other person that maybe they needed to rethink their idea, but most of the time I was basically explaining to them why they were wrong. I knew they were wrong, at the end of the conversation they also knew they were wrong, but certainly I could have explained it in a better way. Full Logic Mode isn't the best way.
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Man, couldn't have said it better. I see it in this sub, every time someone is talking about another persons behaviour and uses the word 'should'
if you describe bad behaviours with a 'should' its like you don't even udnerstand the pragmatism here, and the goal
Though I disagree with the post title, the content of the OP is spot on.
Yeah, we know people around here may talk with a brutal tone, but that's just the way it is here, as you said you shouldn't need to sugar coat anything here.
However, you assume that people here are going out in real life screaming red pill shit from the rooftops, which I'm sure most people here don't do, save a few. You make some great points about humor, and how the lasting effects of a conversation or extended social interaction leans more towards the emotional rather than the content of what was said. I don't advocate sharing RP insight in real life anyway. It's not only socially risky, but its pointless. People can only swallow the pill if they come here on their own, and there's no way to unplug someone by force so why try?
I have to say though, the title claiming that it's "not the truths" that hurt plugged in idiot's feelings, is utter horse shit.
Post is partially correct and partially wrong.
Case in point.....you can go into a business meeting and talk about how great a client's company is and how important their people are, and then tell them that they need a round of firings to right size the company. OR you can go in there and tell the client that they need to downsize, fast and hard otherwise the company is going under.
Nine times out of ten, the client prefers the latter not the soft approach.
The only time I would advocate using honeyed words is if you're talking to people who are dumb or ignorant. Smart people would see right through the facade and would want you to get right to the point. I think the danger that people face is equating the average reddit user with the average smart person - not the same.
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Perhaps its this chestnut of stupidity that can lead people into trouble....
"It's naive to just lay out the bare bones of facts and expect to be embraced—you become detested for it with a passion you would not believe."
Try do a run around in a high powered business meeting, and ill get the popcorn to watch you crash and burn. In business, people actually do prefer the bare bone logic - but you can live in your fantasy world and ill live in real one.
The red pill breaks you out of the Matrix. That's inherently a radical act. Of course, these ideas of radicalism when presented without PC or doublespeak disturbs people. If certain individuals want to use fluff talk to sell these ideas then more power to them, but if there's a radical core that wants to promote the same message in a more authentic and emotional manner then I have no problem with them either. Truth is a bitter medicine, its not our job to make it any easier to swallow.
Strong societies are not built by catering to the weakest among us for the sake of harmony but by identifying and empowering the capable as early as possible.
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I don't think OP ever implied that we should 'sell out the substance or value'. What I took away from it in short was that we should think about who we're talking to and their values if we want to be influential. Chris Dwyer (Penn State) has a great video about it somewhere on YouTube.
Agreed. I call it the Grape Dimetapp method. For those of you not familiar, it's cough medicine for kids that is super sweet and when I was a kid I would have gladly drank a bottle a day if they'd let me. Point being: mix in some sugar and the medicine becomes a lot more palatable.
I saw an example of this on a thread yesterday on a website for pre-meds, med students, residents and physicians where a lot of RP knowledge was being dropped and was positively received. It probably was one of you on here in fact posting because there was a hypergamy reference and an SMV reference. One commenter said something like "I don't know about this jargon, this isn't some kind of PUA or Red Pill stuff is it? Otherwise I agree though." As in, I agree your arguments make sense, but if it turns out they come from a source that I am not supposed to find acceptable, then by association I must reject your arguments.
It really comes down to your goals. In my day to day, I speak my mind. Couldn't give a shit how poorly people respond to my ideas. That frankness is endearing to a lot of people.
But as far as social manipulation goes, yes, you're correct. Honeyed words do well to convince others. I work as a consultant, catering to my clients emotions is the most effective way to get them to agree on my desired ideas. This is a useful skill to possess, and ought not to be overlooked. If you work in any social aspect, you're going to need social skills.
The TRP sub is one of the few places where we can drop the Powertalk. It's exhausting as an analytical person to constantly manouever the emotional maze of someone elses mind, especially when you don't give a shit about them. Even less so for the average redditor, who's likely some naive young kid.
I think that's perhaps the nuance that you might have wanted to put in your post.
People on PPD that don't insult and don't argue from emotion make for a pretty good conversation to have. The tone allows for information to flow freely between my view and theirs and even if I don't agree I usually am willing to understand their views. So yeah, tone makes a huge difference in conversation quality, and when there's a rational, calm tone people are more likely to agree.
ITT: CARE ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE'S FEELINGS WHEN DISCUSSING TOPICS.
Really guys? I don't care if anyone else changes. I'm just here for my success.
It's not a bad thing. it's called empathy, and it's what separates us from the chimps, and prevents us from being solipistic
It's a waste of breath trying to convince anybody who can't entertain thoughts without having a survival response. So the ones who heed my words become my brothers and the ones who don't become nothing but an obstacle for my greatness.
It's a waste of breath trying to convince anybody who can't entertain thoughts without having a survival response. So the ones who heed my words become my brothers and the ones who don't become nothing but an obstacle for my greatness.
We talk a lot in here about what we can do to change the status quo. I think this post gets at a lot of that. By being abrasive, you become the kind of person that radical feminists can point to and say "THIS IS WHY WE NEED FEMINISM", and people who don't know better will eat it up. Instead of sitting around bemoaning the state of the world, learn how to communicate your ideas effectively, and capitalize on your chances to change people's minds.
why would you change the status quo though? The scope of every man is pretty limited. Basically yourself, maybe a LTR, and generally the subordinates who work for you.
Changing things bigger than that are going to bring a lot of frustration
That's the kind of thinking that keeps people from voting. When you refuse to partake in a good act because of limited scope, all your doing is invalidating your own agency. I'm not saying you, by yourself, can change everyone's mind, but if you do your part, and I do mine, and the 87,000 people in this sub do their part, then maybe we'll get somewhere. Your little corner of the world is all you have power over. Don't minimize its importance.
What are your taking about? I'm specifically advocating to actively influencing what's inside your control, not trying to save the world.
Small deeds by many
I tend to say vitriolic red pill things with a smile on my face and with a certain Bill Burr-esque comedic delivery. I still have plenty of friends: mostly liberal&mostly female. I Live in the social justice feminized capital of the world: San Francisco. Its also very closeted red pill... A lot of people here are thinking red pill thoughts, but have to be politcally correct professionally and in public. Being an independent contractor means I don't have to filter these thoughts. Not having that filter makes for an interesting evening of conversation. I get invited to a lot of dinner parties because my friends know I will stir it up with my red pill perspective.
Great post. Sticky this.. Great ideas in this sub but too much butthurt, you did with this post what you are showing people how to do.
This is probably one of the most important points that everyone in the "anger phase" should acknowledge.
If you are in the anger phase, following the above advice might avoid hurting your friendships and reputation.
If you are butthurt and full of resentment it is not feasible to discuss RP stuff subtly in public - people aren't stupid, they can smell your anger. Get yourself happy and confident in private before trying any outreach stuff.
There is no possibility of delivering complete RP arguments in many environments. You can get across one small idea at a time, fitting it into existing beliefs.
This is just a good post in general for any philosophy. It also explains very well the false notion that all atheists are fedora wearing spergys.
I think this is why someone like Alan Watts is a lot more popular than someone like Richard Dawkins, in terms of philosophical stances. You have one who is just brutal, and nobody (that disagrees with him) wants to even entertain his thoughts. But the other kind of masks his atheism in a spiritually-friendly way. He gently leads people to a more sound philosophical truth. Dawkins is just jarring. He may be right, but like you said, nobody remembers the words, they just remember the feeling he gave them.
This shit needs to be sidebarred. I've run into multiple fucking posts in the past week where idiots who 'joined' this subreddit, posted a couple times about how much they hate hypergamous sluts, are new spewing all kinds of bullshit in other subs about what they perceive to be RP truths, and generally just feeding the feminist agenda that "TRP/MRA/neckbeard trollololol" must be stomped out. If you shitfucks want to keep a forum around where we can discuss sexual strategy, masculinity, and developing dominance, you need to stop being so fucking confrontational to every motherfucker you see in TwoX, and instead engage more reasonably. Powertalk, gametalk, straighttalk all play into this.
Out-fucking-standing post. You hit the nail on the head, this is exactly why we are and will remain stigmatized in the wild.
Yeah, no. Disagree with the Title 100%.
Great post, but the title should be "Red Pill Truths are offensive to many, so learn to be less offensive in other ways or use less Red Pill Truth."
Cognitive Dissonance is very simple on this.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
When you confront someone with information that conflicts with what they know/feel/need-to-know, they will reject it, or what they knew previously. This is why it's said you need to wait for someone to be "ready" to take the pill. What it means, is that you need to wait until they no longer believe, or no longer want to believe, the contradictory information. Then there will be no Cognitive Dissonance.
Example of Cognitive Dissonance:
Information accepted as true already - Choosing a mate based on wealth or status is shallow and bad. - I/women am/are not shallow and bad.
New contradictory information - Most women are attracted to wealth and status.
Result - Person rejects new information, even when it is proven by things like OKCupid user data.
Statements like yours here,
Can be simply rephrased as, "In situations where red pill truth is offensive, speak less of it." A "plausible alternative" is less true than a distinct reality. Two plus two might be four, is less true than two plus two is four.
So, again, while I agree with the bulk of your post, the title puts forth the idea that Red Pill Truth is not inherently upsetting to many, and that's flat out incorrect. It is, due to Cognitive Dissonance, and all you can do is tactfully exist in that reality by speaking less of it, to less people.
I don't feel like checking if OP said it or a comment, but I agree that the best method, which is in accordance with your stance, is to simply ask questions that make the person think. So yes- speak less of the truths because cognitive dissonance exists. But break the barrier of their dissonance by asking innocent questions that make them think. You maintain plausible deniability, they inch closer to an open mind, and everyone's happy.
cognitive dissonance is only applicable when you force someone to examine two conflicting ideas at once. people are more than capable of holding conflicting ideas.
what you are referring to is confirmation bias, information that does not agree with my conclusion is disregarded.
Not true. Cognitive Dissonance is rarely even conscious, and certainly not limited to being presented with two ideas at once.
It's the truths that bother people. Men and women are not equal and the revealed preference of women indicates that they don't even want equal treatment anyway, but if you say it, people will see red.
This is not an accurate observation on the opening post. It's not the truths at all that bother people; it's the way they're delivered.
Case in point, I imagine you can agree that rape is bad. Let's mock up a conversation:
Feminist: Men rape women; 1/4 of all women will be raped, and it represents the single biggest threat to women in America!
versus
Feminist: I think rape is a serious problem that is underreported in this country.
If you were having a real conversation with these two people, you'd shut out the first primarily because of the attitude. But you might be inclined to ask the second how they arrived at that position, with the hope that a useful conversation will be the reward.
Or you can carry on with the blanket attitude of "men and women aren't equal." That will take you very far socially.
mostly because the second person has the humility and intellegence to know they aren't all knowing, and won't claim what they cannot prove
You're feminist example doesn't work because the phrasing is not the salient difference between the two statements. The real difference is that one of the statements is true and one of them is false. Likewise, if you take a redpill principle and change the phrasing so much that it becomes a completely different statement, you are not just changing the phrasing, you are changing the content. And by the way, I don't go around saying that men and women are not equal. But I stand by my original point, which to put it more clearly, was this: a lot of people are so defensive when it comes to the idea that there are innate differences between groups of people that they will be offended if you say anything at all. For instance, you can't say that black people are remarkable athletes. Because it sets a dangerous precedent- that black people are different. If you say that women are so much better with children than men, that sets a dangerous precedent. If you concede that women are better than men at something just by virtue of being women, then in the future, you might have to concede that men are better than women at something just because of biology (and not because oppression and patriarchy). In 2014, that is known as "hate speech."
One of them is false by your reckoning. In the mind of the person saying it, it is a perfectly rational thought backed up by data. I'm not saying I personally believe it to be true. I'm saying they have the same conviction. Red pill folks do it all the time, as well, when they're talking about evolutionary psychology and traditional values as if those are things that are perfectly understood and, more importantly, that are perfectly understood by them.
And no, a lot of people are not so defensive that saying "there are innate differences in people" will get their hackles up. Maybe there is a minority that exists there, but if you phrase it that way, nobody is going to care. The way it ends up getting phrased is in some pejorative, like "women don't think logically" or "men are rapists."
And your latter examples of black/athlete and women/children are not problematic because they set dangerous precedents. They're problematic because they're prejudiced generalizations. Just the same as it is incorrect to ascribe NEGATIVE traits to a group of people, like "women are gold-digging whores" or "black people makes the streets unsafe at night." They're bad because they do not accurately describe reality.
And consider for a moment OP's point here. This attitude toward people who would be inclined to react badly to what you say is the issue here. You've internalized this, and people can pick up on that. THAT was OP's whole point, that you have angry people spouting red pill "truths" that get them in serious trouble, because they bring the wrong attitude to the whole conversation.
Problem is that even if you did that there is no guarantee, see the science:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYmi0DLzBdQ
Thanks for the Video. Prof. Lakoff's work on worldview and political party affiliation is awesome as well. The video is an hour long but if you get some time it's fascinating.
Yeah, ive read elsewhere on this. A lot of people personalize their knowledge. It's not about being right or wrong, but the fact that they think they've made the best choices in life, means if you counter all that, you're not saying they are wrong, you are saying everything they've done is wrong.
Which is why the suggestion is the socratic method. Pick away at small things, never the core, always get someone agreeing with you, and let them make the leap on their own.
How many here have worked for a boss with an ego, that would agree with anything you talk to them about, so long as you make it look like it was their idea?
Definitely. You need to phrase things correctly. You might not get them to change their view, but most will at least take it in.
For example, careerish women approaching the wall. How do you explain this concept to them? Well you could frame it as is often the case here making them out to be some kind of malicious entitled nut jobs.
Or, you pose some questions to actually grasp the world view. So, I normally go alone the following: You knew you wanted a career right? So you studied hard in school. you made sure you prepared for everything. Spend years pondering your degree and what university to go. You did all this because you knew you needed to do this all to get a goal.
So, isn't raising a child the most important job a person could have. It's literally raising a human being that you are responsible for. So what long term planning did you do for that?
Then explore emphatically. You will quickly find most (not all), but most women realize the odd position. They have put virtually no thought into kids/husband except to assume it will happen. They have not used self control to make sure they do it right, as they did with school. They might still blame this on a man and say that a man should be ready when she is ready, but the point still gets in there. She has spent probably 20 years aiming for education and a job. Yet, expects to find a man and have kids with him in just a few years tops of meeting him at her age. they might still blame men for not being serious with them when they were young.
then you can explore the interests of men. Does a man need a woman with a high income? More stress. Work and then do chores at home. Less family structure. The balance of life is distorted. Not to mention the rush to kids and a lack of establishing a solid grounding as opposed to getting slightly younger woman...
wall women isn't even about convincing, inside, most know. the probelm is the talk isn't actionable.
Telling a 35 year old women it might be a little late to get a quality man might be true, but what they hell is supposed to do about it, other than get depressed? The same way no guy who hits 30 should be listening to a woman about what he should do for his next 10 years of life... nothing they say would be able to help him much, true or not
If there's one thing men should have learned is just how incremental and generational these kinds of changes are.
If you don't talk about it, the discourse in her head, and then in her talks to her friends, and politics, and family... is not likely to change.
Just think how the current generation of men and women were led into this current state just willy nilly accepting the narrative. Only now when men are just assumed to be nothing more than violent rapists is there even a push back against that.
Or the women might not have hit the wall yet, but is still 'career' oriented and wants to get a good job first.
Just like it might be too late for some men to truly end up in a happy marriage. Maybe divorce already burned them. Maybe they just can't change enough. It doesn't change that they will talk about it and help other men not be so stupid.
Unless you're a powerful dictator, you can't really have actionable change without first changing the dialog (both for yourself, and the rest society)
sure, but again, 48 laws of power here... talk through action, not words.
You have a quality LTR, a girl who doesn't brow beat you, focus on yoru career and self... People will automatically see the benefit when they see a 45 year old, in great shape, well off with multiple plates/strong woman. The alternatice is the beta bux...
I guarantee that will have a stronger effect than 1000 dinner table conversations with a tumblrite
you need both.
Without the words, that 45 year old with a multiple plates can be positioned in people's mind as exploitative...
That's how people are. If actions only spoke, we wouldn't be as we are in the society now would we?
When there's another narrative going on, you have to talk about it or people will conveniently choose easy narratives.
Doesn't matter what it is. That's life.
Sure we do. Case in point... The space/shirt thing. Had he kept frame, the issue would die. Instead FEMS saw blood when he broke, and that's when their narrative won out.
He didn't have to day anything, just stick to the fact that he's a modern scientist doing something amazing.
For my example, the gut just hills frame, and the naysayers lose steam... He doesn't need to set a narrative, just keep living well
Excellent point! I think this is so important, because when people come to TRP they see the angry, socially inept commentary, and believe that to be representative of RP theory. Then, they immediately take a stance against RP theory even though they would otherwise agree when it's "slipped in" and not specifically stated as being RP.
don't forget every few months, the random thread of blatant racism or woman beating that has to get quashed.
So you agree that the sexist narrative in society is highly politicized and intentionally obfuscatory but that racism is neutral and everything is as it appears?
Not here. This is for sexual strategy, not an argument for or against "cultural marxism". You're diluting the message.
Simplifying these things doesn't do anyone any good. It's also outside the scope of this sub.
I'm not here to see a sjw for men discussion, but being a better man with other men
What's the difference between OP and a concern troll? OP offers solutions, that's what.
And many are just ham-handed people with zero finesse, regardless of TRP.
Agreed. I shamelessly spout red pill stuff all the time.
I do it in a fun attitude and dont use jargon. And i keep it away from work.
But I openly say stuff to my LTR, our friends, etc. Shameless caveman shit. And I make fun of my buddies sometimes and call them pussies for, eg. texting a girl too much. It's all in the spirit of fun. And when people disagree with me, i make fun of them for bullshitting me, and eventually they admit what i'm saying is true. I enjoy myself a lot more, and i find people get along with me better, than when i am more inhibited and polite.
Fuck it.
BTW Meditation DOES help, b/c you can find that you're deeply alright. Then it's amazing to me i ever give a shit what other people think, and the shit i sometimes worry about seems so unnecessary and silly.
Good post.
I've found that in both life and on the Internet, it's better to show these truths than to tell them.
Also, I've found in my personal life that higher SMV guys are more receptive to this stuff. Real recognize real.
Well, the higher the SMV, the more likely a man has truly interacted with women from a position of abundance.
Once you don't have girls on a pedestal, a lot of this stuff is pretty easy to see.
yes, it is the red pill truths. if you sugarcoat them or try to be covert, it does lessen the impact, but people love to bullshit themselves.
I was still angry when I started talking about this stuff. Hindsight tells me I did the community a disservice by misrepresenting it. Catch 22 is when one develops the social intelligence enough to influence people of it charismatically, you have probably developed the social intelligence to appreciate how much you personally benefit from the site and are thus dissuaded yourself from spreading the ideas due to diminished competition.
Either way it's a rotten apple.
I think that what you're saying is very, very important; I intuitively picked that up from Zan Perrion by reading his book. Everything he says is exactly the way you're talking about. I've been doing it myself ever since, though I had never really verbalized what it was.
Great post.
*Wording
Learn to create a proper tone of voice and use the appropriate word choice. You have to know your audience.
This is a phenomenal post.
Informative, well thought out and presented, blunt, and to the point.
I'm keeping an eye on you op, you better post more
This post is a gentle reminder to me.. Alcohol does alot of funny things.
Blurted out RP truths to a few mates the other nite.. None were interested in hearing it and we originally wanted to have a good night out. They could obviously see my butt-hurt as the night progressed, more downed alcohol, my mental state worsened.
Usually though, I remain positive and upbeat. Close friends and acquaintances see me as that. But obviously some negative influences got to me and in-turn, I reacted by vomiting and sabre-rattling RP truths.. That episode may have soured a few mates off me for a couple of days. Thankfully, I have forgiving mates. That and they literally depend on me for business and my social network filled with girls.
This is a well timed post. Lesson definitely learnt. If something rattles you. Calm yourself before reacting. You may be right, but no-one wants to hear hurtful truths especially if you are out around town and looking for a good time..
Well said. Can you share names of some good speakers and humourists who wrap up the reality of the world in palatable charm? I am not a Westerner so not much aware of these guys. I bet listening to them would train the mind to make much "conforming" verbal delivery.
I vote to sidebar this stuff.
"The problem comes when we confuse the controversy of red pill truths with the controversy of red pill truths combined with socially incompetent delivery."
Easily one of the most important points I've seen made on this subreddit.
One mistake people consistently make is that they assume people will read, think, and logically analyze the content of what they write. Often this doesn't happen, especially on controversial subjects - TRP especially.
If you want to talk about RP truths with people, it's best to do this in person/face-to-face where you have an opportunity to immediately gauge people's reactions so that you can refine and qualify your points.
This is the best to avoid the kind of fallout you would encounter online, when people stop reading what you are saying and let their emotions effect their interpretation of your point.
Never underestimate the importance of being able to see the non-verbals in face-to-face conversation that you don't get online.
I have agreed with literally every post in TRP ever. However, I have some qualms.
I just realized we sound bad when we call them truths- almost like we are reading out of a bible. Redditors hate religion and organizations and establishments and we are beginning to sound like one with our diction. We need to start being sneakier and mixing feminist points into our topics then BAM we admit we don't actually believe in feminism
Redpillers often see themselves as Donald Drapers, forgetting that Draper is a marketing genious, a man really knowing his trade of choice, blessed with a look and appearance most men would sell their worthless soul to devil to get, if only the devil had wanted it in the first place. Draper is never cruel, always nice to people including women, never vengeful, and basically a beta type according to redpillers, only that he is so skilled in his trade that he ends up a winner and gets the girl anyway. Redpillers just sound so BITTER to me, and whining. And isn't whining the female way in the first place?
.This post assumes that Archwinger, the asshole on the internet who can't finish a sentence without using the word slut at least three times:
1 - speaks and behaves identically in the real world, among legal professionals, suburban neighbors, coworkers, friends, and his family; and
2 - actually gives a fuck about convincing the general public about stuf.
I don't appreciate being called a dumbfuck.
'2'. you do care about convincing the general public. otherwise you are just masturbating - exactly like the crazy guy who gets on a box on the street corner and screams at the world "the end times are coming" and everyone goes - "cool story bro"
while the Internet gives you the opportunity to be two completely different people, how people react to you will be the same.
I (and many red pill advocates) most certainly do not care what the general public thinks about the red pill. I am very much masturbating.
Posting bullshit on the internet is a hobby. Very few of us are trying to change hearts and minds or care enough to want to do so.
I use the crap I pick up here to fuck my wife and keep her behavior in check. Other guys use it to get laid. Nobody cares about offending others on the internet. And nobody worth a shit is stupid enough to try to advocate for the red pill in the real world.
If you care about the thoughts of the general public about the red pill, great. Nobody else does.
for sure, it's supposed to be dumb-fuck hyphenated...
I can appreciate a man who values accuracy
Great post! I give some merits to red pill ideas, but a lot of times I wonder if people are drawn to this because they are "sour and charmless" to begin with. A lot of the anger people express because the "way women are" makes me think that sometimes they cause those same behaviors they hate so much in women.
Dont hate me for this, but sometimes I feel that a lot (not all) of people who identify themselves with these ideas don't understand women, and are drawn here by the frustration associated with that.
Well to be fair the reverse is true: you can completely understand women and still fail with them and hate them.
I don't think this is really a secret. There are field reports and posts all the time expressing open frustration and hostility towards women and their own failings. It's all part of the mix. I bet we can take a survey and the vast majority of men on this subreddit joined it after a nasty break up or divorce rape.
It's the same reason femenism took hold as well as it did. Women beaten by their husbands, rape victims etc... It was a very comforting ideology, allowing them to work through actual grievances... problem is, sociopath chicks who just wants an easy button to plow through better qualified people also got one.
Some guys are just malcontents.
Put this one in the sidebar!
Say the truth without the terminology and people will agree
This misses the point entirely. Go up to a person who is apt to disagree with you and just switch out a few words. Everything about the delivery and the attitude surrounding it affects how you will be perceived if you want to talk red pill.
You're liable to get upvotes for insults and disrespectful comments on /r/theredpill because there's a lot of bitterness.
To everybody else, though, insults and disrespectful comments are, well, a sign of disrespect, and hostility will be the response.
Try talking to the average woman about the "cock carosel" and see how far that gets you.
And yet "hookup culture" is a close enough synonym that is socially acceptable.
I've been thinking what the OP wrote for almost as long as I've followed this sub. It's nice to see it laid out with a lot more care than I could be bothered to do.
It's funny. I've had some success, but you are right, the inner speak isn't made for external audiences. Moreoften than not, just come clean with your bias, and warn people up front that they may not like what they are about to hear.
Pretty hard to call someone out on something when they own it.
The use of "slut" or "slutty", irrespective of accuracy, is automatically going to evoke many negative associations in the minds of many readers. If that's what you want to evoke in regard to persons indicated or described, fine... but many readers will tend to consider you unduly judgmental unless they're ALREADY of a mind that slutiness is inevitably and indubitably questionable, particularly if they have sympathies for those you may have described as such.
Id' agree. It's like everytime someone posts an /r/2xx thread in here, it's the brand new types that tend to go over there and start shit.
The more RP someone is, the less likely they are going to be shouting it from the rooftops.
You've just made an excellent argument for religion... and look where that got us. For society to evolve blunt truth is required. People are just too manipulable otherwise.
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Interesting post. (the dialogue around it made good reading as well)
This is an interesting post.
I agree that the most intelligent way to make our views, ideas, philosophy get through and get adopted by the maximum of people is to use the same techniques that our "enemies" (feminist, liberals) used: deception, dupery, trickery, feigning, hypocrisy. Basically use the right techniques to reach the population of ignorant, brainwashed, uneducated idiots that constitute the majority of people. I should know I've been one of them for way too long...
Wow. For me: never ever. Always the opposite.
No thanks. I'd rather live a life where I control almost everything & do not answer to the emotions of others at all. I don't want happiness: I want stability.
The social skills here seem somewhat better than average, at least for the internet. 8.5/10 for the internet - maybe 6/10 for real life?
Why should we be concerned with mincing the truth when we are talking among ourselves? I appreciate the rawness of the community, it's something that we don't get enough of in today's society where a lot of the traditional male communities have been broken up.
Sure, when you're out in public and your reputation and career are on the line, use some common sense and be cautious with your words.
I came to post something similar and found this has done an excellent job. Be nice. Don't be manipulated.
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He's not advocating we clean up tone on an internet forum devoted to the subject.
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he's advocating for tailoring your conversation to your audience, and the value of that is without question. Empathy (as the oppositte to solipism) as well. And finally, tact.
those three things are just as manly as bacon and whiskey. They are a nuance that separates great speakers from neckbeards. If truth were able to circumvent these things, sociopaths would never flourish
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Great post. TRP is a tool, how you use it will determine your success. It's entirely possible to fuck things up and go from Beta to Omega with TRP if you are an idiot.
No, nothing frightens people more than the truth. Particularly this because it calls into question all sorts of sacred cows of the left.
I've been subbed here for a while but I have the attention span of a goldfish so I never read more than the titles. What the fuck is a plate? A hamster? Is a wall a thing or did I just imagine that? If you don't use serious language you will not be taken seriously.
The language is serious within the redpill community and it's blunt and to the point for a reason: to speed up conversation and debate. OP is talking about softening the language in public.
Lurk more.
Read more.
Work harder.
Meditate and get on ritalin or something. Not our problem.
"Serious" defined by who?
This is one of the primary points the OP was making. Subcultures and in-groups establish a vocabulary that defines their identity. Simply by employing the vocabulary, you have marked yourself as part of that in-group. If people in the out-group hate the in-group, they will now hate you and disagree with what you say and what you do by association.
So you think being inaccessible is a good thing? You're also suggesting that spending more time on reddit constitutes working harder. Lol
Clearly your first move should be reading comprehension, before trying to read any of the shit in here. Your takeaway was literally the opposite of the import of the post. The point is this: if you want to make points in TwoX, do not brand yourself as TRP by dropping lingo like 'hypergamy' or 'hamstering'. That's lingo that we use to describe concepts and discuss issues, but other people see them as derisive or dismissive ways of talking about gender relations. Instead, you should learn to communicate your ideas in a variety of different ways, using the language of whatever group that you are communicating with, so as not to be dismissed before they even consider your substantive point.
i doubt you've lurked even if you don't know. between the sidebar, and just the context of them used every day you should know by now
I posted something similar on a thread here the other day and got downvoted for it
Good post