CMV: The Redpill is turning into MGTOW

stats135 · 2018-05-28T15:46:26+00:00

TRP and MGTOW has never really been all that different to begin with. Getting women and sex takes work for a man. They require investment of time and money. As far as I'm concerned there are only two conclusions that you can draw from that. It is either worth the investment or it isn't. That is what sets RP and MGTOW apart. RP still see enough value in women to put in the effort of being attractive enough to attract one, while MGTOW do not. I don't really think one is more correct than the other. A lot of this depends on the circumstances a given man is in.

A far as the whole "forming healthy relationships" go, that's just meaningless bullshit since RP and BP have a fundamentally different view of what a good relationship is. I would view that having a women settle down with me just before her looks start to fade, after spending the last decade of youth fucking Chads, as the worst possible outcome. But somehow BP think there is nothing wrong with this.

Jcart105 · 2018-05-28T17:44:48+00:00

It seems like a natural response given the entitlement of modern women, not to mention the fact that a man is now potentially on the hook for lifetime rape accusations once he has sex with a woman.

I've said it before, but if prostitution or some other substitute the average and below average guy can use becomes widespread and accessible, the 'need' to continuously chase women and run game full-time will vanish quite thoroughly. This is why you see so many women enraged when they hear about sex robots.

Nevertheless, I still disagree with your overall argument. TRP, almost always regardless of the social or legal climate, will want you to chase women and continue running game on them. Keep in mind that TRP is completely against sexbots (there was a post where an EC went on his alt-account to make that an announcement post, just lol), and they are also inclined to say shit like "he just didn't have good enough game" when a guy gets hit with a regret rape accusation.

The older people on there who have perspective and understanding of the value of pussy will probably leaning MGTOW, but honestly at that point the subreddit doesn't really provide any value for men in that category.

Fabianstrategy1 · 2018-05-28T14:25:50+00:00

[deleted]

concacanca · 2018-05-28T14:39:46+00:00

To an extent yes.

The thing you don't seem to understand is that, faced with the red pill, people go one of three ways:

1) double down on the blue pill. Essentially strap on the blinkers and become a white knight.

2) follow a path of self improvement, become more successful with women, mellow out and probably end up purple. I'd put guys like /u/MercedesBenzoAMG and /u/cxj in this category (tell me of that's not right guys!). Some people here hang about to help out others as mentors like /u/triadis3

3) see the struggle as pointless or not worth the effort and go MGTOW. There are two sub branches of this: the incels and the perennial plate spinners (like squid)

So when you think about it, it's not a surprise that there are a lot of incel/mgtow posts on there. Group 1 won't post because they reject it. Group 2 will only post when they have something specific to talk about unless they are the ECs, and they are vastly outnumbered by group 3.

As to your string-bet assertion that Redpill has failed, I don't see the evidence for that. Firstly the sidebar, the source of Redpill advice, remains in full view. Secondly, MGTOW is still a viable outcome for the Redpill (even if it's not the one that the core sub envisages. Thirdly, it slowly seems to be seeping into the MSM more frequently and lastly, if they only helped one guy a week they'd still call it a success - they don't market themselves (don't talk about fight club).

Compared to exredpill which is a bit of a wasteland and the slow decline of thebluepill, the hateful cunts who inhabited it seem to now be more of a scourge on this sub than the incels, I'd say it's doing ok.

trail22 · 2018-05-28T22:50:20+00:00

Redpill is about changing yourself to suit what women want.

MGTOW is about being unwilling to become what women want and instead find other ways to be happy.

The game is rigged, one group decides to metagame whle the other refuses to play.

The beliefs may be simialer but its actions that define people.

jackandjill22 · 2018-05-28T16:16:18+00:00

Redpillers are basically becoming MGTOWs, and I believe this will be harmful for the younger generation of men who will end up despising women which will prevent them from forming healthy relationships.

I agree that more and more men will GTOW. But it will not be because of hatred of women, but more out of necessity.

It won't be harmful for men, because they won't be able to form ANY kind of relationships with women, even if they love women and no matter what kind of Pill they end up ingesting. A bad relationship with a woman is much, much more harmful to a man than no relationship with a woman, or being unable to have or form a relationship with a woman.

Most men aren't attractive enough to get anything with women. That's only getting worse and worse as time goes on. And regardless of whether they're balls to the wall redpillers who lift and run good Game, or they're Blue Pill simp suckups, they won't be able to get anything. They're not attractive enough to get and keep the interest of a woman long term. At all.

MGTOW will be a matter of survival for more and more men as time wears on and the SMP continues to its "singularity" point.

bonusfruit · 2018-05-28T20:20:58+00:00

Mgtow is my home sub, and trp is still committed to spinning plates and simulating alpha behavior in hopes of winning sex. Recently mgtow is a lot of pics of vacations, weekend plans, gaming rings, cars and other ways to enjoy money rather than wasting it on women. Also memes and complaints about women which are always fun but sometimes exhausting. Mgtow will always be more interesting

InformalCriticism · 2018-05-28T21:02:08+00:00

I love how TBP's strategy isn't to deny TRP works, it's to think of juuust the right name to call them to make them defend themselves. In this case it's "MGTOW". Now, believe me, if I was some kind of incel, I might be trolling the parts of of the Internet where I didn't belong. However, MGTOW belong in the manosphere, and you'd better get used to it. So what if they hate women? They speak our language and they don't hate men - that's at least 2 and a half thousand times better than being a feminist, so I'll take it. People like you are banned for concern trolling for a reason.

abaxeron · 2018-05-28T14:44:19+00:00

MGTOW is the only internally consistent conclusion of the RP, and women as a whole don't matter as much to waste your hatred on them. Developing your own mind games to counter her mind games, and still being fundamentally unarmed if she one day decides to destroy your life - is not healthy relationships. It's making a bet with everything you have in a game that she sets the rules in, hoping that she will find you cute and funny enough not to tilt the table in her favor too much. The Red Pill was never about male imperative, unless you believe that male imperative is limited to having sex with women.

PlasmaTicks · 2018-05-28T14:07:23+00:00

MGTOW is more often than not "I'm not getting fired, I quit" mentality when it comes to women, while TRP is sexual strategy to attract more women. I dont see your point

blackedoutfast · 2018-05-28T18:38:39+00:00

no, it has been overrun by incels/blackpillers and dorky 20 year old betas.

even if they're not admitting to being incels, they're still pushing retarded ideas like looksmatching.

for example i keep seeing this one idea in posts/comments that some hot guys fuck ugly girls and that is increasing the expectations of ugly girls so now yoi have to be an 8/10 man to fuck a 4/10 woman reeee! these Chads messing up the sexual marketplace!! they need to stop having sex with average or below girls and only have sex with hotties.

and that's clearly a retarded incel concept. TRP is supposed to be about learning how to become Chad, NOT whining about the realities of the SMP and what other people are doing.

meanwhile, the dorky betas are circle jerking about things like "muh mission" and "alpha bucks" and "STEM degree /IT job" and misinterpreting that infamous chart of male vs female SMV over time. they're NOT doing the things that they should be doing (lifting and improving social skills and status), they're just twisting and reinterpreting certain parts of TRP in a way that allows them to continue to be nerdy betas, but while telling themselves that they are top alpha males.

they're literally reinterpreting the RP to somehow suggest following the standard BP recommended lifepath for betas - study hard in school and focus on good grades and get a good degree, a good degree leads to a good job, a good job leads to money which leads to a happy beautiful wife and nice picket fence suburb family.

also it seems like some of the ECs and Mods (who are legit RPers) have seen the growth of TRP and alt-right and also things like #metoo and reddit shutting down undesirable subs. are now they're all caught up in the "importance" of TRP and see themselves as the leaders of some kind of movement. and they've shifted away from simply enjoying the decline and toward a more tradcuck orientation of wanting to fix society and overthrow the liberals/SJWs/feminists or whatever

Million-Suns · 2018-05-28T18:37:51+00:00

Another post claiming they know what's MGTOW is about basing themselves mainly on what they saw from the MGTOW subreddit.

If you think MGTOW is about disliking or hating women, then I have no idea what to tell you. It's about opting out of society because of how it treats men.

The actual MGTOW subreddit does such a poor representation of MGTOW that I browse it less and less. Who is interested in reading a forum in which 99% of posts are about women are monsters? I don't.

You have the wrong view about MGTOW to begin with so how can we successfully challenge it?

MGTOWManofMystery · 2018-05-28T17:09:04+00:00

About time those roosterswoke up.

truedemocracy3 · 2018-05-28T15:04:34+00:00

People say MGTOW is about doing your own think and TRP is about sex and nothing else,

I disagree. TRP is primarily about knowledge. It strips back the veil many were raised with and exposes the truth of gender dynamics. That's all it is. It really isn't a movement, a group, etc - just raw knowledge

to be red pilled doesn't mean you're banging HB9s at your whim. It just means you are aware of the true nature of gender dynamics at least when it comes to sex. With that knowledge you can go MGTOW or you can sleep with sluts or you can even use it to lock down a strong LTR candidate. It's really up to you.

Jcart105 · 2018-05-28T14:20:37+00:00

[deleted]

Five_Decades · 2018-05-28T17:58:48+00:00

There is a treadmill PUA -> TRP -> MGTOW. Men generally move from one to the next.

I think the issue at root is guys in that treadmill are attracted to horrible women. Supposedly a lot of guys in pua had terrible female role models (abusive or neglectful mothers), and using women as validation tools makes you drawn to the wrong kinds of women.

But yeah it's all part of the same movement fundamentally. But the core issue is men in those movements are attracted, either for conscious or unconscious reasons, to horrible women (low rmv).

Iceklimber · 2018-05-28T17:13:59+00:00

I view them as Yin/Yang self-regulation.

The more men step up their game, the less worth pursuing women becomes relatively.

Conversely, men going their own way remove themselves from LTR pool, thus rendering women easier to acquire

analt223 · 2018-05-29T13:53:21+00:00

MGTOW is inevitable. There is no "game" or "real social dynamics", etc. MGTOW is the only aspect of the Manosphere that isn't about taking your money and "seminars" and "programs".

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2018-05-28T14:25:12+00:00

too late, turned into mgtow/blackpill/incel a long time ago

this is the fault of reddit, not TRP. reddit is full of repellent foreign and autistic losers, not normal ESTJ and ISTJ AFCs who just need a little help with dating to turn the corner. the red pill did not originally contemplate how to rebuild a really defective shut in into a man who can get laid

orcscorper · 2018-05-28T15:09:29+00:00

Why are you there to begin with as a female?

the_calibre_cat · 2018-05-28T16:24:58+00:00

Well, does anyone remember the MRAs? Eight years ago they were the heart of the manosphere and now it's as though they've been erased from existence.

My theory is that men's groups don't sustain themselves because they don't advocate for anything. They advocate against *everything* - fourth-wave feminism, all feminism, women in general, Democrats, betas, "pussification," paying for meals, working dangerous jobs - but at the end of the day they don't have any specific priorities or any plan to change anything.

So what happens? Either they just throw up their hands and say "I can't change society so I'm Going My Own Way" (right into the basement), or they lose energy and disband.

Which is sad to me, because I felt the MRAs had about thirty good points to make. And I used to talk about those points with them and ask questions like: okay, so what's next? How do we organize? How do we select leadership? How do we form a mouthpiece that doesn't say ridiculous things? What's the plan?

It quickly became clear that no one was interested in doing anything but endless bellyaching.

pighammerduck · 2018-05-28T21:22:42+00:00

I mean, I hate to be that guy but they should totally keep behaving this way leaves more for me.

goatismycopilot · 2018-05-28T19:29:34+00:00

I am still not clear on why turning into MGTOW will upset women.

zhebandit · 2018-05-28T15:04:08+00:00

I think it has to more to due with the difficulty of changing. Red pill just gives the knowledge of what to do. If you read everything it says, you might be 6-24 months from marginally succeeding. The amount of effort it takes to lift, improve your social skills, and develops a career; maybe more effort than these men have ever produced in their entire life. It is far easier to give up and blame women, than accept your own personal failures. I can personally count on two hands, the people I personally know, who have truly changed their lives for better. I think the core of Red Pill is one of discipline and self improvement. The problem is most of these men were losers to begin with. They just now have someone else to blame.

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[deleted] · 2018-05-28T20:16:36+00:00

As long as it decreases inceldom

Gamer_Jack_Gameson · 2018-05-28T22:52:25+00:00

MGTOW isn't about hating women. It's about going your own way and not worrying about women. RP is not at all aligned with that philosophy.

newName543456 · 2018-05-28T22:56:04+00:00

MGTOWs don't hook up with women and ideally avoid them as much as they can, while TRP devotes significant amount of effort into becoming as attractive to them as possible.

That's a bit of contrast, isn't it?

SilentLurker666 · 2018-05-29T06:40:44+00:00

MGTOW do date. (there's some internal conflict between MGTOWs when if MGTOW can form casual relationship with women, but there are quite a few MGTOWs are encourage ppl to date)

Redpillers are basically becoming MGTOWs, and I believe this will be harmful for the younger generation of men who will end up despising women which will prevent them from forming healthy relationships. CMV.

So many things to take from this statement: 1) define healthy relationship. Redpill believe the current state of relationship between men and women isn't healthy either. 2) young men not knowing women's hypergamious nature is also very harmful, 3) What it's to you? From the respective of Redpill, they simpily don't care.

mgtow_1 · 2018-05-29T06:55:18+00:00

Mgtow is a response to the current political, social, and legal climate of today. Many men after finding the red pill learn that the deck is stacked against them. As a result they play the game on there own terms which for many means avoiding relationships with women, others just won't get involved long term with a woman. How that plays out is different for every man.

Nu_Guy · 2018-05-30T00:11:21+00:00

The subreddit vs the sidebar (which is the actual logic) are two different things.

A change in the type of generation and maybe more people there, does not make the logic false.

BookwormJane · 2018-05-31T02:47:53+00:00

when you try to understand why they whine so much, you realize that they actually dislike or hate women

You only realized that now?

Redpill isn't so much about the male imperative anymore, it's more about 'I hate women how can I dedicate my life to piss them off'.

It's always been like that, darling. I believe now you have some perspective - thank God!

DarktharionGod · 2018-06-13T18:10:34+00:00

Redpill only works if you are a chad. If you aren't it's over for you, so welcome to the uprising

[deleted] · 2018-06-17T09:11:54+00:00

I think they are both just mirrors held to similar groups of men. This correlation, is more like an effect of society changing. It’s not the other way around.

Marino4K · 2018-05-28T14:47:34+00:00

The TRP reddit hasn’t changed too much in my opinion,

I just think the MGTOW “movement” has gotten louder because its basically the ones redpill principles didn’t work for and the far right portion of TRP.

Jokengonzo · 2018-05-28T17:06:06+00:00

Mgtow while having some good viewpoints on female nature is for the most part a shitty movement of men who basically are quitters and are trying to pass it off like they won some shit

Nullberri · 2018-05-28T18:06:22+00:00

Well for every man who tried the redpill and didn't make it. If you can't go back to the bluepill, where else would you expect them to go? Once you know the truth you can't go back, but if you are unwilling or unable to do the work to move forward then you end up mgtow.

There will be a lot of failure in the TRP group, as they came here because they needed it. Its like the other side of survivor bias, and not every man can claw his way out of the bottom 80%.

[deleted] · 2018-05-28T17:27:02+00:00

anger phase pansy boys

Title	CMV: The Redpill is turning into MGTOW
Author	lemonfloss
Upvotes	73
Comments	304
Date	May 28, 2018 2:00 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/8mq8vo/cmv_the_redpill_is_turning_into_mgtow/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-the-redpill-is-turning-into-mgtow.262198 https://theredarchive.com/post/262198