Blue Pill, do you truly, in your heart, believe all the tactics on Red Pill are abusive, manipulative, and misogynistic?

[–]Everyonelovesmonkeys40 points41 points42 points 8 years ago* (76 children) | Copy Link

For me personally I think where I strongly disagree with the red pill is how they view women. They are quite open that they believe that woman are no more than children. Women are not equal with men but are below them in everything except nurturing their own children. Men, as TRP love to point out, are the ones who built civilizations, women just tagged along and provided nothing but holes for pleasure and making babies. They claim that women also are incapable of love, that they just branch swing from man to man without a moment of sadness or regret because they are incapable of it. They are constantly finding examples of the worst behaving women who lie and cheat and act in ways that 95% of women would find abhorrent and then try to claim that AWALT. Their beliefs about women and how they are then make it so much easier to dehumanize them and treat them as creatures to use and dump as the men see fit. Spin lots of plates, the younger the better, no post wall women; don't get into LTR unless you find that great rarity of a virgin who wants to be a SAHM and devote their life to their man, best to find a nonwestern woman for this because feminism has ruined Western women. That's not to say all of their advice is bad. Self improvement and confidence building are great things and I agree with them that men (or women) should not allow some one to treat them like shit. The problem is that they then advise men to treat women like shit instead.

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[–]Everyonelovesmonkeys15 points16 points17 points 8 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

Red pill teaches men to be confident and to have a good sense of self worth. That is what works on women or really people in general. People are attracted to people who are confident and in control of themselves. What the red pill tends to do is to take that idea and then combine it with a bunch of bullshit like women have no intelligence, self reflection, feelings of love or honor etc and dehumanizes them to a point where it seems ok to use them and dump them as soon as they don't fit the man's purpose. Afterall, why not, according to red pill theory all a woman sees in a man is what she can get out of him, why not treat her the same? Problem is they have zero understanding of the average woman. We are capable of deep love for our men. We are just as self reflective as men and certainly have a strong sense of honor. Red pill strips women of all of that to allow its followers to feel its alright to treat all women like shit and feel no remorse.

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Here's the thing. If you go too hard in that route, it's often easy to dial the behavior back. In general, what RU_Crazy said works quite well. Push/pull is effective but it's implementation will vary as needed.

It's better to overshoot than undershoot. If you take a method that's generally effective and attractive but overdo it, you can typically roll it back or avert and try again at a future time. If you go with something that's typically received as unattractive, then it's harder to recover from.

Additionally, don't focus on only one woman. Who knows the particulars of why a given woman isn't available. Things can fail simply because she's unavailable, not attracted, etc. When meeting new women it's good to meet many of them; when dating, it's good to see a couple on the side or as back-ups ;)

[–]chasingstatueszion was part of the matrix1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Every single time you have ever done this, it's worked without fail?

One time I got slapped by the girl. Twice. Semi-in public. For context: I am seriously an ass. Sometimes purposefully so. Like, I trample on feelings. For fun. So anyway, this girl slaps me hard and in public, and I had a real moment of doubt in TRP and self-reflection and a real sense of shame battling my inner incorrigible asshole and for once, even I'm not making excuses for my behaviour. but then the girl's friend comes over to apologize to me. Anyway, I swear there were like hallelujahs of confirmation bias going on in my head. praise be to drrrrrr, goodlookingloser and legion.

Anyway, I didn't manage to bang her, but we hung out a lot after and I replaced a semi-stranger with a good friend.

And maybe someday I will bang her.

See, that's the difference between us and you. post-trp, I am happy everyday. I take nothing seriously. I've been rejected a lot. I've gone "fuck it" in the middle of normal social situations and done youtube worthy things(one time I tried to break up with a girl with a dead serious "I need you to be my second mother." as per request. (she didn't believe me)). I have started conversations with 'how much" AND not gotten shot down. I do defineawkward's fingering handshake as the default.

Stop putting so much emphasis on losing one girl. There are more women in this city alone than I could possibly know what to do with.

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[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

It's not my view, it's fact. Men are responsible for initiating and maintaining a relationship. No woman is capable of anything but sitting back and receiving. If she is required to do do anything but or even lessen her demands, the man is simply replaced by a more compliant model. There's a reason that all dating advice and how to make things happen is for men. There's a reason women are taught how to wade through the applications and only accept the best. No woman is capable of love as we were led to believe. It's a lie designed to keep men compliant with their obligations to serve and provide for women. Used to, women had some obligations as well, simple things like STAY LOYAL YOU FUCKING WHORE but thanks to feminists, even that is too goddamn oppressive.

And before you pull the standard blue pill shit where you deny basic reality and say that my problem is just being with the stereotypical gorgeous empty headed bimbo, you are wrong. All exes, from vastly different backgrounds and attractiveness all behaved identically. All women I ever pursued before figuring out those subhuman leeches were nothing more than a time wasting money sink behaved identically. You want me? You better prove yourself and prove how and why you will be useful to me. And I bought it too. Considering all behaved this way, I just accepted that is what I was supposed to do. I now reject it. But go ahead. Try and shame me for failing my obligations. Try and shift the blame for their behavior to me. It's not going to work on me.

[–]Everyonelovesmonkeys0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Men generally are the ones who initiate a relationship, you are right on that but certainly they are not the only ones who maintain it. A healthy relationship is one where both partners are putting in the work to make it succeed. I hear all the time on TRP about AWALT when it comes to leaving their husband the moment he becomes weak and can not provide for her the way she is used to and yet I have never seen it in real life. I have however seen plenty of women stick by their husbands through great hardships such as their men becoming disabled or being out of work for years. TRP would have you believe that this is a great rarity and yet that is not my experience at all. As to dating advice being aimed only at men, have you looked at the cover of women's magazines lately? They are full of dating advice! The vast majority of women do not have men lining up waiting to date them just like the vast majority of men don't. Each side has their own struggles in the dating realm.

I have a good friend who has only dated immature assholes. Guy after guy has behaved in much the same way despite coming from all sorts of backgrounds. Some of them are highly educated and make into the six figures, others never went to college and barely make ends meet. Is it that all men are the immature assholes or is it that she is selecting guys who have those traits? Most people would say its the latter. I would suspect that all of these women you have been dating have one thing in common, you. Referring to women as subhuman leeches certainly doesn't help make your case that you are looking for a mature, emotionally healthy woman.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

A healthy relationship is one where both partners are putting in the work to make it succeed

A woman's idea of "work" is agreeing to lessen her demands. Again, doing any mans version of work is completely foreign to the female, who has been conditioned since birth to believe that they are inherently special and thus must be given what they demand.

have however seen plenty of women stick by their husbands through great hardships such as their men becoming disabled or being out of work for years.

That's nice. It's also probably a lie. Women don't do that out of love. The reality is they sought better options and found none, so begrudgingly stuck around.

They are full of dating advice!

Yes. It's fundamentally different. Men are taught how to audition, women are taught how to select. Don't even try to compare the two.

The vast majority of women do not have men lining up waiting to date them

Judging by the constant complaining of "where have all the good men gone?" And complaining about how and where they want to be approached and how a man should make that effort to prove himself, that's obviously bullshit.

Each side has their own struggles in the dating realm.

Agreed. Women struggle when their lists of demands go unmet and "lesser" men have the audacity to exist in her presence.

The story of your friend is just that, a story. The reality is those men were probably just fine, but she feels entitled to perfection and has a hissy fit when that perfection standard isn't met.

I would suspect that all of these women you have been dating have one thing in common, you

As expected, there it is. The expectation that men are responsible for female bad behavior.

emotionally healthy woman

By a mans standard, this DOES NOT EXIST. the blue pill pieces of shit maintain that this mythical being does exist, and yet cannot demonstrate it. Look at the vile contempt they have for men who don't meet that standard of literal perfection. Look at how they excuse and defend abusive manipulative cheating women and shift that responsibility to men for their actions, as you did, and then tell me with a straight face that women are not complete trash compared to men, who actually work, create, maintain, and are not only capable, but out flat required to be selfless and disposable for the benefit of women. Go ahead. Let's fucking hear your justification

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[–]Everyonelovesmonkeys8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

I'm thinking you are suffering from a serious case of confirmation bias. Are some women childish? Sure. Are some men childish? Yep. Most women and men are not however. The red pill loves to cherry pick stories of women acting terribly and try to present it as AWALT but really, its just their using confirmation bias. Possessing a vagina and uterus does not make a woman some how stop developing intellectually and emotionally.

As to agency, you're right, there is a double standard when it comes to drunken sex. A woman can claim that she was raped because she was too drunk to give consent and will be taken seriously. A man makes that claim and he will be laughed at. It seems like things are slowly changing however. If a person, man or woman is too drunk to give consent and the other person is relatively sober and in control of their actions, it is rape regardless of gender.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Everyonelovesmonkeys0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Its not the vagina. Its th raging and constantly changing hormones. Every women I've seen or dated is a slave to her feelings and her hormones. I feel bad for them. I couldn't live like that. I thank god every day I'm a man.

As a woman who has hormone fluctuations, this is just so wrong. Yes, at the end of my cycle I can be a bit grumpier than normal for a day or two and in the middle of my cycle I am more likely to be horny. Its not as if I lose my mind however, I am still totally in control of my actions especially since I am aware of why I am in a bad mood for example.

To have consensual sex, you need to be able to give consent. If a woman or man is passed out drunk or close to that point and the other person is at least sober enough to be able to recognize that and still has sex with that person, its rape plain and simple.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]purple_lockPurplish1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm thinking you are suffering from a serious case of confirmation bias. Are some women childish? Sure. Are some men childish? Yep. Most women and men are not however. The red pill loves to cherry pick stories of women acting terribly and try to present it as AWALT but really, its just their using confirmation bias.

Not really. I mean obviously not every single woman is exactly like that, but with the influence of Feminism the fact is that far more women than men act that way. That's the reason it's not "APALT," and one of the main reasons TRP exists in general.

Women are more likely to act immature, childish, selfish, have double standards, have ridiculous conditions that must be met, etc. Yes, there are men who act this way, but the whole point is that they're rare compared to the equivalent woman.

If things were to change and less women felt like they could act however they want and get away with it, then I think TRP would be much less common, useful, and accurate.

[–]Everyonelovesmonkeys3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Women are more likely to act immature, childish, selfish, have double standards, have ridiculous conditions that must be met, etc. Yes, there are men who act this way, but the whole point is that they're rare compared to the equivalent woman.

Again, your problem is confirmation bias. I am a woman, I have plenty of women friends and have more access to interacting with women than your average man. Women are not prone to behaving like children. You may not understand what their motive is or why they are acting in a way that you personally do not find logical but that does not mean that they are automatically childish in their behavior. I have not seen a woman throwing a temper tantrum for example outside of The Real Housewives of whatever which is a completely fake and scripted show. The women I know have made huge sacrifices for their families, work hard to provide both care and love for them and help provide a roof over their heads. They ride out the valleys in their relationships and work to make their marriage better. They are nothing like the way you describe.

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[–]Everyonelovesmonkeys12 points13 points14 points 8 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

•Its not that women don't love its that they love different than a man. Men love people for who they are. Women love people for how they make them feel.

Sorry, I hear men on the red pill say that all of the time and it is such a load of bullshit. First off, please explain to me how the red pill can preach that men feel love so much stronger and unconditionally than women but then also tell their followers to dump their women once they hit the wall or start to get fat? I never understood that hypocrisy and would love to hear it explained. But onto my point, men and women feel love very similarly and of equal strength. I don't love my husband because of how he makes me feel or what he can do for me. I love him for who he is. It is so ridiculous to me how the red pill loves to use pseudoscience to try to prove that women can not feel real love. the whole war bride theory which is such a load of horse shit but it seems like so many followers of the red pill just eat it up. I will give you that men do tend to be the protectors, take a bullet for their woman as they love to point out on TRP but women tend to be the caretakers, the one to be more likely to take care of a long term sick spouse were he to get ill despite the red pills assertion that women will leave their husband at the first sign of illness.

•Why should a man not want to maximize his sex life? Why should a man not want to find a woman who will fill the role he needs in a wife? Why should a man compromise for the sake of women?

Absolutely, when you are out there dating, it certainly makes sense to be looking for a woman who is compatible with you and has the qualities that you are looking for. If frequent sex is important to you than find a partner who also sees sex as important. What I don't agree with is once you are married you do need to compromise. Its not all about the husband and his needs as the MRP board seems to preach. Marriage is a partnership. To have a healthy relationship takes ongoing work. Manipulating your partner with fear is never the answer to your problem.

•Would you honestly refute that men did not take society from the caves to outer space?

How the red pill love this. A couple years ago I went to a museum exhibit of medieval torture devices. A good percentage of those were used on women for such crimes as being too assertive or talking too much. There was a very narrow band that women were expected to fit into, if they stepped out they were swiftly and heavily punished. Men are obviously stronger than women and they used that strength to keep a woman in her place throughout history. Lets not also forget the incredible burden it is to be the sex that gets pregnant and has to give birth. Before birth control, a woman could spend much of her life pregnant and nursing and faced a high risk of dying while giving birth. Its kind of hard to go out there and concur new lands under those circumstances. In modern times however women have proven themselves to be just as capable as men. The head of the IMF is a woman so is the head of the Fed and the leader of the most powerful European country. You look at the past and see how much men have built, I look at the past and wonder how much more we could have achieved if half the population were allowed to achieve anything beyond giving birth.

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[–]Everyonelovesmonkeys1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Are you trying to use a population of that tries to be different from the blue pill norm as a representative sample of the population of men?

No, I am talking about red pill followers only. Most men see this for the hypocrisy that it is.

Interesting article but it doesn't surprise me at all. When a man is unemployed for the long term he is more prone to getting depressed and lashing out than when a woman faces long term unemployment. From a young age, men have it ingrained in them that their role is to be the provider/protector while women are the nurturers/caretakers. It only makes sense that the loss of this role would hit a man harder than it would a woman. But its not just women who are leaving their men when they lose their job. According to the article "unemployed men themselves were more likely to initiate divorce — even if they reported being happy in their marriage — than guys with jobs."

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I've never seen TRP say to dump post wall women. I've seen TRP provide strategies to ensure their LTR doesn't gain weight. Personally I don't tolerate fat women. I lose attraction and it just doesn't work in the long run.
I don't believe men and women love the same. There's no way to prove it. I only have experience living as an XY but from the people I know I see a difference. Its not that its not real love, its just different. Hormones are responsible for feeling so different hormones should produce different feelings.
I've never seen TRP say women will leave at first sign of illness.
What I see in marriage these days is no compromise. What I see, in my life, is a bunch of wives that nag and nag all day until their husband is a little bitch. That will never happen to me. I won't allow it. Let go of an inch, give a mile. If a woman wants the privilege of being my wife she will compromise for me, I am the catch, I am the 1%, that is my mentality.
No shit, women were oppressed. That doesn't change the facts. Its not about conquering lands. Its about invention. I would posit that men made fire, the wheel, the engine, electricity, everything of any consequence. You can femsplain all you want but those are the facts. I've yet to see a female Steve jobs, or elon musk, or Albert Einstein. Its no surprise considering as you admit women were primarily there to take care of kids. That obviously effects our brains over millions of years of evolution.

[–]Everyonelovesmonkeys3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

No shit, women were oppressed. That doesn't change the facts. Its not about conquering lands. Its about invention. I would posit that men made fire, the wheel, the engine, electricity, everything of any consequence. You can femsplain all you want but those are the facts. I've yet to see a female Steve jobs, or elon musk, or Albert Einstein. Its no surprise considering as you admit women were primarily there to take care of kids. That obviously effects our brains over millions of years of evolution.

I'll reply to your other points if you like but really want to address this point. Until very recently, it was very difficult for a woman to get an education outside of the basics. If she was fortunate enough to be able to get a high education, no one would hire her. The jobs that were open to a woman, secretary, teacher, domestic, she was expected to leave once she got married. Things really didn't start to change until the 1960's. How can you expect women to succeed in a world that does its best to oppress them? And despite all that, some women did achieve quite a bit in this world. Lady Lovelace for example was a great mathematician and is considered to be the first computer programmer. Hedy Lamarr in addition to being an actress also helped to invent technology that led to current Wi-Fi and Bluetooth technology. Two of England's greatest rulers were Queens, Queen Elizabeth I and Queen Victoria. And if you are looking for another Steve Jobs, look to Elizabeth Holmes. She dropped out of Stanford and invented a new way to test blood that only requires a single drop and is far less expensive than conventional methods. She is only 30 years old and her company is valued at $9 billion.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I'll repeat myself once more, women were undoubtedly repressed by men in the past. However, regardless of the particular circumstances to why men were the ones to create society there lies the simple fact that they were the ones to do so.

So when someone says the phrase "its a man's world" that's literally because society and technology were creations of men. Its just a black and white fact.

Now to overlay some anecdotal experience - what I see in today's women is that girls are taught they should be like men i.e. have a career and work long hours etc. The effect I truly see is that women who do this are depressed. They hate their jobs. They feel like life is passing them by. They just want to have fun and socialize. They seem to gain no pleasure from work.

As a man I gain immense pleasure from building up my career. I wake up in the morning wanting to get to work. I don't see this same ethic in women. Its not their fault. Its just not their nature.

[–]Everyonelovesmonkeys0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I'll repeat myself once more, women were undoubtedly repressed by men in the past. However, regardless of the particular circumstances to why men were the ones to create society there lies the simple fact that they were the ones to do so.

So you will acknowledge that women were oppressed in the past and were not given the chance to be inventors or creators but you still look down on women for not building modern society more than they did? Do you look at African Americans before the 1970's and deride them for not contributing to society as much as white men did?

3 of the last 5 Secretaries of State were women; the Prime Minister of Germany is a woman; the likely next president of the U.S. is a woman; the head of the Fed is a woman; the head of the IMF is a woman. We may have only been allowed to go out there and achieve our potential for a very short time but women are proving themselves to be more than capable.

There are plenty of women who receive a great amount of pleasure from the workforce and achieving in their chosen careers. I think where men and women differ and why some women do get depressed is that women also tend to be the ones who put the happiness and wellbeing of their families on their shoulders. There is guilt for many women when she can't be home for dinner or goes away on a business trip that men just don't tend to feel. A man will tend to feel more depressed should he lose his job than a woman will but the other side of that coin is that a woman will feel more responsibility should her children not be happy and well taken care of.

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Again you misinterpret the purpose of my comment.

I'm not particularly interested in what women are capable of performing. I'm also not particularly interested in telling women how to live their lives or judging them for their choices. We live in a free society I would never argue to take away freedom of choice.

What I am interested in is discussing however, is what the effect of women seeking interests other than raising a family. To suggest feminism is about destroying the families is going to far. Rather, I would posit feminism encourages women to want to accomplish more than raise children. Since we have a finite amount of time on this planet if women undertake other endeavors, by definition some sacrifices must be made in other areas. With that in mind I often ponder the net effect.

How will society look now that child rearing is becoming less of a priority?

How will relationships look now that women are more inclined to pursue what have been traditionally male roles?

What is the effect on motherhood in a society that increasingly promotes promiscuity?

What will happen to society as the institution of marriage continues to decrease in popularity?

This is not about moral judgments, or restricting choice. Its just about observing the practical effects of our media and behavior. Regardless of whether those effects are intended or otherwise.

This is of course only one side of the coin. While all of these radical changes have been going on for the way society educates girls. The opposite changes have been coming to fruition with how we educate boys. I won't expound further (unless you'd like to engage in that tangential discussion) except to say it has a compound effect.

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[–]throwaway164321 points22 points23 points 8 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Much of the theory of The Red Pill is absurd and dehumanizing. It is a framework or lens that asks adherents to view me as a lesser being because of immutable characteristics rather than my achievements, personality, preferences, or choices

But, people are predictable.

If I know that someone was born in one of the southern states, loves Nascar, supports the army, goes to church every Sunday, is against gay marriage, then I can confidently predict they'll almost certainly vote republican. Yes, that particular individual might not, but statistically with a large enough sample size, you'll notice a clear correlation.

Is that a dehumanizing or prejudiced framework to operate with? Working with the assumption that a complex issue like a person's choice of a political leader on a range of possible economic and social issues can be predicted from these three simple factors? Or that most women will overwhelmingly vote for Hillary in the next election whatever she says on any issue, similar to how African-Americans voted for Obama in the last election? We use predictive frameworks like this all the time. Why is it taboo to apply the same thing to the sexual marketplace?

Yet another example: each time you read a news story about a random violent mugging/robbery in a big city, ever subconsciously wonder what the race of the perpetrator is before checking to see how often you're right? You could certainly argue it's grossly "prejudiced", politically incorrect, and a racist framework, but what do you do when reality bears you out to be factually correct with that assumption? Will you then start understanding the real underlying factors (poverty, economic background, lack of access to education, etc.)? Using a framework or lens to predict future behavior in this context is neither racist nor dehumanizing, but wise.

So, why is this greatly different from what TRP does? It works because people aren't special individual snowflakes, with totally unique personalities, wants & desires like you assume. You are offended by this though, which of course you're entitled to! But, reality is going to proceed independent of your personal emotions, and objections to the tone that TRP uses.

Fact is, we've all been shaped by evolution and sexual selection to be attracted to very similar traits. Yes there are exceptions, but TRP does a wonderful job of pointing out those behavioral traits that are attractive, and in successfully predicting human behavior in the dating game. TRP is no more misogynistic and dehumanizing in predicting people's behavior in the sexual marketplace, than it is racist to try to understand the socio-economic factors that underlie the correlation between race and crime.

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[–]lonehowlCommon sense motherfucker.11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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[–]lonehowlCommon sense motherfucker.5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

let's be honest here though;

All the dipshit feminists are outweighed by the good ones because they're not.

It's true for all philosophies/philosophers.

you have a buncha pussies saying they wanna "live" that thought (feminism), they wanna "be" that principle.

But they thrash it and abuse it.

And that ain't what the original thought was.

Lot's of peoples have been/are like that.

There's only one MLK, one Socrates, one so and so, They are the epitome of certain "ideas" because they followed them like instinct and fought and bled (and died) for them.

The main problem is just that; people.

"true" feminists,

this ain't a scotsman because for one, they do have principles of freedom and responsibility, and you can't just eat your cake without eating your vegetables.

that just makes you a coward

Edit: worth mentioning, is that adding insult (Politics) to injury (bullshit) is Panem Et Circenses.

It's just, distraction; political correctness and political circumstance, really, what's going on.

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female empowerment will lead to a world in which women and men won't be led astray by superficialities

In fact it's the opposite. Here is a copy/paste of an old post of mine explaining how female empowerment + left wing economies lead to the average man not being able to have access to the average woman for sex OR HAVING CHILDREN. -

from a political point of view, it's very tough to be leftist after TRP. socialism leads to a world where the average blue collar man does not have a good chance to mate with his average pink collar female peer.

Think about this - today being a middle class single mother sucks, but lets pretend in a hypothetical socialist world where everyone is equally rich (impossible, but lets pretend), being a single mother won't be that terrible since she's very rich and, I don't know, has robotic servants or something. Who's sperm is this average woman going to use when she wants to have kids? The average man's or Chad's? And then what is that average man going to do when he wants to have kids?

Sperm is cheap, eggs are expensive. Fundamental inequality you can't change. If a man wants to have a child and raise it on his own, he still has to convince a woman to invest the next 9 months for him. If a woman wants to have a child and raise it on her own, she only needs to convince a man to invest 15 min. Too much equality + affluence, means women can be their own beta bucks, and beta's not only get no sex but also don't get to reproduce.

I'm an average guy, but I make decent money, which lets me do OK, and I have no illusions about that. And here's the thing, even for men who don't make much money, as long as there's women out there who's lives can be improved by your presence, you'll be relevant. But if the state or socialism automatically gives all women a high quality of life freely, you and your sperm are worthless to her since Chad's sperm comes cheap. A free market of male/female mating means the top Chads mate with all the women at the average man's expense.

Good news is we're no where near socialism, especially in the US. We're still pretty far to the right economically. Bad news is if you swallow TRP, you have to let go of your liberal utopia dream. There's no such thing as equality. But that's OK if you really think about it. Income inequality is just a number. The difference between business class and economy class on an airplane is just an illusion, everyone gets to their destination at the same time. It's just an incentive to keep everybody motivated. Capitalism works, it's why the US is the richest country in the world.

So yea, I suggest libertarianism.

(Offtopic at the end but yea, point is - sperm is cheap, eggs are expensive in humans. Without social controls like marriage, monogamy, slut shaming, etc there will be an imbalance in mating. Free market in human interaction but equal economy means a return to the jungle where only the alphas mate. If we have to have a free market socially, ITS THAT MUCH MORE IMPORTANT TO HAVE ONE ECONOMICALLY, so the quality of your life is somewhat based on your merit, instead of your aesthetic alpha/beta status.

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Ok, this one's an argument.

Though you're still not opposing what I'm saying. You illustrate how its bad. But you don't illustrate how its my right to be perceived any which way I feel I should be.

My primary problem with /u/ThisAppleThisApple is not her demand(though I do think its entitled), but that its based on such eye-roll inducing "woe is me" bullshit that you could probably be a shitty melodrama with it. All rhetoric. No substance.

Notice how we're on this sub and you have these supposed dehumanizing misogynists having normal, respectful conversations with women everyday. I mean, I break the mold time to time when I'm annoyed, but in general, the ones not marked "crimson" are behaving as if women are equals. All of them do in fact, judge women by precisely the list she lays out. Some of them might even reach conclusions about them acceptable to her.

And some of them won't. And that's where her lie falls apart. She wants judgements on her achievements, personality, preferences and choices to be made based on her own paradigm of views. Based on her own set of values and beliefs, far far more specific than the bullshit she makes up about TRP believing women are lesser. Anything unflattering and she would go on a tantrum of how she is dehumanized all over again.

Some eggregious but useful examples: based on her choices, I could view her as a slut. She wouldn't like that. A human fat roll seismometer? Nope. As a 40 year old unlovable, childless shrew? I guarrantee I would still be a misogynist.

What she wants is precisely a very short, flattering list of acceptable judgements. Like "Curvy BBW" or "empowered" or "fish without a bicycle". Anyone less than liberal couldn't judge her. Hell, her mom couldn't judge her.

Its a very entitled, stupid, emotional, hypocritical argument. Half the world, including half of your own country america, could probably dehumanize her.

edit; and lastly, lemme take a page from the TBP NA*ALT handbook and make a judgement of her based on her vagina right now. She is attracted to dicks. Done.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

She wants judgements on her achievements, personality, preferences and choices to be made based on her own paradigm of views. Based on her own set of values and beliefs, far far more specific than the bullshit she makes up about TRP believing women are lesser.

I think you're right to the extent that I think she does want to be judged against her own value system. I know that I want to be judged against my own value system. For example, I consider myself pretty intelligent, and I try to use my intelligence to contribute to society, and so far I have done a few things here and there that I'm proud of, but none of them have made me any money. Nevertheless, I find that a lot of people judge me based on the amount of money I make, not what I do to make that money. That makes me upset. A lawyer making fifteen times my salary by protecting corporations from environmental regulations is harming society, but a lot of times that lawyer receives a lot more respect based on the ability to drive an Audi and things like that.

My point is: we all want to be judged by our own value system, because we all (theoretically) believe our value system to be a good value system. That lawyer probably prefers the company of people who like him for the paycheck he makes rather than people who question his ethical perspective.

Anyone can judge anyone else. I could, easily, judge you for being a Red Piller and dismiss everything you say. But I could also judge you for your willingness to talk with me, and engage you respectfully as a result.

I think /u/thisapplethisapple is suggesting that the Red Pill has picked the wrong value system by which to judge women. Making assumptions about a person because she was born as a woman is not a good value system. Some women are bad; some women are good. But whatever value system you use to judge women should be the same value system that you use to judge men. And the Red Pill seems to use two different value systems: one for men and one for women. I think /u/thisapplethisapple is suggesting that since the Red Pill is willing to judge men based on their achievements, personality, etc., then they should also judge women similarly.

[–]alcockell-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

I'm not sure what you mean.

What are these double standards? (I'll bet our definitions of double standards differs.)

Why should these double standards justify judging women on a different set of value systems.

If, as you claim, feminism judges men based on a double standard, then, as a person interested in fairness, you have two options: (1) work to eliminate the double standard or (2) generate your own set of double standards right back.

(1) is the reasonable approach that seeks fairness and equality.

(2) is the petulant child approach that says if you hurt me, I'm going to try to hurt you back, even though that will only mean everyone gets hurt and no one is happy.

The Red Pill is basically a "philosophy" that attempts to justify (2).

Why would I care about what the Red Pill has to say about those double standards--if they even exist--if I know that the Red Pill's solution to those double standards is already wrong?

[–]alcockell-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]andrewisgoodYou are a fountain of misinformation10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

[–]lonehowlCommon sense motherfucker.3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

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[–]andrewisgoodYou are a fountain of misinformation7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

Some women act like children. See that. See that word there in the front? The word some? See, yeah, some women act like children, I can buy that. Some men act like children. Some people act like children. My problem is the stereotyping, othering and dehumanizing aspects, which I hate. And AWALT with the willful ignorance thing.

The drunk sex thing I've thought about as there are a number of scenarios that can go on. There is a potential case where yeah, both were too drunk and had sex, and I could see it being wrong if the guy is blamed. But, then there comes the problem of a man potentially taking advantage of someone while drunk and claiming, well, I was drunk too hurr hurr, I didn't rape her and gets away with it.

See, I bring this up as it's another frustration with TRP in its black and white thinking. I put up two plausible scenarios, and one problem with rape in general is it's incredibly complicated. In each case, there's a chance for complete injustice. There are people who are going to circle the wagon on either side and say he took advantage of her, or she's a dumb slut. And that's why I'm a huge fan of concepts like enthusiastic consent and educating people on issues pointing out someone who has drank too much that they aren't able to consent (personally I've picked up on people's eyelids tend to be more visible as if they're falling asleep is a good measure of knowing if someone is able to consent or not, even if they're talking to you without the slurring or stuff like that, as there's a difference between drinking a bit and drunk). I feel stuff like that would be helpful.

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Well, many women I know personally but I do admit anecdotal evidence is suspect, but I guess it's also how I view women Yeah, sorry I replied late as I was at work so I did forget a bit of the statement and I wanted to make a more general comment on all tactics and comments on issues with dehumanization.

And yeah, I feel with you certainly, a lot of it has to do with how you view women. Of course you've never met one, you have this self fulfilling prophecy and say, well, women act like children when they can't take criticism. Well, that's a pretty broad statement on half the human race, how do you know that? I've criticized women before, even friends, as they have me. Nobody's perfect but I haven't really gotten the "police tone/language when it's something they don't like. And hell, maybe I have encountered that with some people but just don't remember, because I take everyone on an individual basis, so it probably wasn't a big deal. I remember I got into an argument someone where I criticized her for something and she got incredibly defensive and after arguing, even labeled me as sexist (it's a bit of a long story and I'm going long), but that was her, just her. Some people are similar, you can get that, but I think if you take people on an individual basis, you'll get wildly different results then when you expect a group of people to act a certain way. Plus, it depends on how you're talking to them. I feel that, well, you kinda stereotype half the human race, so maybe they're pretty annoyed with your attitude and react negatively to it.

[–]lonehowlCommon sense motherfucker.-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Nuno, dude.

I'm not against that; I don't give a fuck.

Seriously. Are you that motherfucking stupid, girl?

LEAVE, GET THE FUCK OUTTA THAT RELATIONSHIP!

You don't like it? Well, maybe you oughta shut the fuck up, AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT

Why would you stay with someone like that?

What kind of special are you? "Broken?" You need special boys to use you like a ragdoll because you're depressed? Uh okay.

Because what the fuck!

You keep being that way; when I come out and I invite someone to dinner, I peacock-out because you don't believe in anything but yourself either.

It's really a people thing. Dick or vagina (or mix or lack thereof), you're still human, and thus, a little piece of shit selfish liar.

So when I believe in something other than myself; I stand out out of sheer principle.

Clean, cut, savage, and real.

[–]andrewisgoodYou are a fountain of misinformation3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]lonehowlCommon sense motherfucker.3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Listen though, Andrew.

Why the fuck would you listen to someone that's trying to belittle you?

Are you that fucked up?

Because if you are; one of two, you're choosing to suffer, and you're an idiot and you deserve to suffer however long you have to to truly understand why that's wrong. it happens. nothing you can do about that.

Or two; you need psych help, because you're really literally wrong.

and let's be honest. Shrinks ain't all that great. they shove pills down your throat and they don't know shit (did you know that the guy that "discovered" lobotomies actually won a novel prize? Not only that, JFK's sister went through it because she was "rebellious." she was left forever disabled for that goddamn bullshit icepick surgery. not that long ago, either.)

I had to do a damn project on schizophrenia.

and every damn motherfucker with a phd

sweden, america, england, japanese, all fucking pointing in different directions, all fucking doing crazy shit.

I do believe in that. But it's more of a, APATS

All People Are The Same.

because you're all pussies and all you care about is your pleasure and your happiness. Not anything other than yourself.

(Myself included, of course)

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[–]cherryblue12Purple Pill Woman2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I don't believe that all red pill tactics are abusive. But I believe that some of them can be abusive, depending on how they are employed.

Some red pill "tactics" are just general good advice: get fit, eat healthy, dress better, be confident, approach more women. These are all things that will improve your luck on the dating scene, and as far as I can tell, have no downsides.

Other TRP tactics can be good under the right circumstances: for example, I believe that "abundance mentality" is a good mindset to have when you're single and on the dating scene. But in an LTR or marriage, this mentality can be damaging. If taken to it's extreme, you're basically saying "my partner is replaceable." this is not a good foundation for an LTR or marriage.

Tactics which I believe are blatantly manipulative are things like negging and dread game.

Are you sure the "tactics" that the Red Pill teaches men are really that different than what normal, naturally attractive people already do to attract their mates?

I think what sets TRP apart in terms of their advice is that it's given from the perspective that women are horrible and inferior. I read in an article once, I forget where, that TRP is "what happens when the PUA community starts to hate women." In the TRP world, women are the enemy - the gatekeepers of sex, who withhold it for seemingly arbitrary reasons. This leads to an "anything goes" atmosphere where sexual strategy is amoral and potential harms done to women are not even considered.

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Yeah, and how does that affect your ability to think logically? If you know what it is and see it why would you take that as a reflection on yourself?

Would you? I would love to know what you're basing that on. You really think on a place such as reddit where people have enough time to type up long ass posts proclaiming the benefits of it that not a single person would try and and go "guys, this shit doesn't work"? Yet you're confident enough to say that everything in that and affiliated subs are fairy tale wish stories? Cool, that's some exceptional deductive reasoning there.

Regardless of that, do you think that the fact that the marriage got to the point where those men went looking online for tips to save it is a good thing? If anything, it points to the marriage already not working, someone isn't satisfied and nothing is being done about it. So they went and did something about it themselves, are you saying that's wrong?

Why don't we look at it another way, why aren't those wives making sure that their husbands are happy in the relationship?

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Title	Blue Pill, do you truly, in your heart, believe all the tactics on Red Pill are abusive, manipulative, and misogynistic?
Author	AmericanHistoryAFBB
Upvotes	18
Comments	176
Date	May 16, 2015 9:38 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/367cf7/blue_pill_do_you_truly_in_your_heart_believe_all/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/blue-pill-do-you-truly-in-your-heart-believe-all.282124 https://theredarchive.com/post/282124