Narcissism: The Nuance Between Ego & Confidence

2015-01-22T20:00:09+00:00

I like this idea that you're building here, about how faking it is reliant on external validation. I do believe that this is not always a problem, however. For example, when developping extroverted qualities, you must fake being an extrovert until you've forced yourself to interact enough to actually be an extrovert. Outside of this though, I think you hit the nail on the head with regards to the negatively egotistical effects faking a quality can have. It's like you can't fake being "Red Pill" - no matter how much you spew AWALT, frame, alpha, etc., being "Red Pill" involves internalizing the mindset that allows you to view the world in a detached and objective way.

1MillionTinyHorses · 2015-01-23T01:03:37+00:00

There is a visual exercise that I use when trying to describe the difference between external (ego) and internal validation. Imagine if you will a vase. It has value in that it functions as a vase because that is what it is; it just is. Imagine that same vase, but now broken into many pieces. It no longer has value, but if you glue it back together, piece by piece, it becomes a vase again, but it is has less value as it is now weak and damaged only being held together by the external implementation of the glue.

A person with authentic self esteem just is. They resinate self worth from an internal base with no use of an external force. They do not compare themselves to others or define themselves by things outside of their being. When a person becomes damaged they use egotism to in a sense "glue" the remnants of themselves back together to generate a form of self validation, but it is external based, and still leaves them a shell of what authentic self esteem would be. They define themselves by being better or worse than others, by the things they possess or don't possess, and the stuff in which they do or do not do. They make effort to tell everyone surrounding them of these thing in effort to convince not just others, but themselves of their own value they so subconsciously believe they lack. I hope this makes sense.

zenRP · 2015-01-22T19:53:05+00:00

I feel like attempting to increase or protect your ego only serves to reinforce an external need for validation.

awmanieffedup · 2015-01-23T04:43:38+00:00

I am a 33yo. male and found TRP about a year and a half ago whilst searching for some answers. This sub has helped me re-frame my thinking quite a bit. I have not been around browsing or participating in quite a while but you are touching on some things that I have been pondering myself.

I come from a shitty family, father was not around, mom was a really good woman and pulled us through. I was so set up for beta-ness because of this situation. I had a unicorn for a mom basically. She was beautiful but didn't have much going for her at 17 when my dad thought he had beaten her to death then fled 2 states leaving her and me to die. We were homeless for a while. She worked hard and I had 3 stepdads. The last one stuck, he is a great guy, ex marine, likes beer, football, and goofy humor. I couldn't pick a better dude for my mom.

Growing up, my 1st cousin was like my brother and he always had tons of girls after him. My best friend Timmy in my youth, my best friend Will in my Teens and my best friend Greg in my 20's were/are all super alphas. I was always the trusty sidekick. I saw their ways with women, some wanted to teach me "game" but I wasn't with that, I wanted to really find true love.

This narcissism thing has been on my mind lately. My cousin and my friend Greg had the ego and confidence naturally. My friend Will learned game from another guy and he had the natural narcissism, but not the confidence.

One thing I am left wondering is why I end up being best friends with the Alpha guys. I feel like because they are such big Mr. Popular dudes who get all the women that other guys just tickle their balls to be friends and get to hang with the women. I was/am always the type of guy to just be myself and be honest. When my friend is unsure if his crazy outfit looks good, he can ask 10 ass kissers who are like, "bro, you are the man! that shit badass!" but they ask me and it's "ummm, man you look like an idiot..." Then they will go put on a different shirt. These guys need a solid honest friend who is just a friend and not someone trying to hop on their hard earned pussy train.

For me, confidence is not an issue. I had a best bud who was with the same girl for many years and we would hang out a ton. I was bitching about my girl woes one day when she piped up and said I just didn't have enough confidence. I like your separation of Ego and Confidence because I am fully confident but I don't brag and I am generally humble which doesn't help a guy get laid at all. Her comment used to bug me because she knew me, she knew I was a confident guy, what I did not do was boast, brag, or try to be the center of attention. Hell, she had seen me at the helm in practice and rocking on stage with my 5 piece metal band, even her boyfriend who she thought was the shit looked up to me, but she said I didn't have confidence?

These things have just been brewing in my mind lately, the dichotomy of my alpha super sex oriented friends vs. my own identity then getting comments like that. All it has led to for me is just opening up my true self a bit more around new people. I still don't feel like I can truly be myself around strangers because a lot of people just don't get me so it's easier to feel them out first.

RedPope · 2015-01-23T05:24:29+00:00

Good post on Ego/Confidence. Useful stuff. In examining the traits and techniques of narcissists, we learn much of social interaction. Lessons we can apply.

Studying individual narcissists themselves is less useful. OP rightly doesn't spend much time writing about them. They are broken people. Such examination only benefits those forced to deal with one. The rest of my post will do that. In a sense, it is off topic. You have been warned.

My ex-wife was a narcissist. I can confirm and expand upon this statement:

Most narcs are needy, there are a few who actually have a superiority complex that is based on the internal rather than dependent on external approval.

Her core sense of superiority was mostly internal. It was unquestioned. But every now and then, her need for external validation became ravenous. She would pursue it like an addiction. A need that had to be fulfilled. However, once she received that validation, she lost all further interest in that individual. They no longer had anything left to offer her. She didn't necessarily discard them, but there was no need to advance the relationship.

This led to an endless string of acquaintances. Just when it appeared they were about to establish a genuine friendship, she would get her validation and then detach. I imagine some internal monologue: "Thank you for reaffirming that I am the center of the universe. You can leave now."

She was very deft at opening both people and groups. She was eager, passionate, and genuine. Her confidence seemed unshakable. She appeared incredibly competent, rapidly earning positions of trust and leadership. She'd work hard to win people over, then suddenly cease all effort. Many of them would come up to me later and ask if they had somehow offended her.

With continued exposure, most would conclude she was arrogant or manipulative, and they'd become hostile. She would alienate entire groups and eventually lose her status and position. She was oblivious to this, never understanding why she received so much resistance. Always placing the blame on others -- then hopping to a new social group or organization.

Since our divorce, her dating life has followed the same pattern. Guys think they've met someone special: an incredibly enthusiastic and interesting woman. They have the greatest first/second dates ever, but as soon as they validate her, she shuts down. LJBF. Some may be inclined to say AWALT, but her condition is grossly amplified. It is a crippling disorder. She is incapable of normal relationships. Being her husband and feeling discarded was painful. Seeing her do the same to our children was tragic.

We do not seek to become DT. Nor can we. These are mental illnesses, and you can't accidentally train yourself to have a chemical imbalance. Unlike anxiety, paranoia, schizophrenia, etc., the DT sufferers often appear to possess social skill super powers. We can study and emulate their methods and behaviors, while avoiding the pitfalls associated with these disorders.

TL;DR: Off topic look at an individual narcissist. Think I wrote this more for myself than anyone else...

projectself · 2015-01-22T22:17:18+00:00

It is not nuance, they are polar opposites.

I am going to quote a post by Dr. Glover, the author of No More Mr. Nice guy because he sums this topic up very well in my opinion.

http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24714

The Difference Between Confidence and Arrogance

I was having breakfast with my friend Todd the other morning at one of my favorite hangouts in Puerto Vallarta. Todd made an observation that he believes there is a fine line between confidence and arrogance. He had brought up the subject of confidence a few days before so I assumed that it must be something that was on his mind.

While Todd’s statement had a ring of logic to it, I told him that I believed the opposite was true. He was curious what I meant.

I went on to offer my opinion that confidence and arrogance were poles apart rather than separated by a fine line.

Todd is probably like a lot of Nice Guys who are afraid that if they act too confidently, people might see them as arrogant assholes.

Since they don’t know where that fine, invisible line is, Nice Guys stay well behind it. They keep their candle hidden under the proverbial bushel to avoid coming across as brash or cocky.

Here’s the difference between confidence and arrogance – confident men are conscious, arrogant men are unconscious.

A confident man is aware of his strengths and weaknesses but doesn’t get his identity from either. An arrogant man magnifies his strengths, overcompensates for, or hides his weaknesses, and gets his identity from both.

A confident man is aware of the effect of his actions on others. Though he doesn’t seek approval, he acts with integrity, respect and love. An arrogant man is either unaware of, or doesn’t care what effect his actions have on others. His behavior is often disrespectful, self-centered, and unloving.

This is why I suggest the line between confidence and arrogance is miles apart, not microscopic. The only way a confident man would become arrogant is if he completely became unconscious of self and others. That’s not a thin line. While we all lose consciousness in various ways many times a day, the confident man regains consciousness as often as he loses it.

Here are some other differences between confidence and arrogance.

-- A confident man is secure. An arrogant man is insecure.

-- A confident man is internally validated by his actions, not by the results of his actions or the recognition of others. An arrogant man is externally validated by results and the recognition of others.

-- A confident man is unattached to outcomes (he lovingly doesn’t give a fuck). An arrogant man is completely attached to outcomes.

-- A confident man is able to risk, fail, and look foolish. An arrogant man is risk avoidant and never puts himself in situations that might lead to failure or that might make him look foolish.

-- A confident man is willing to repeatedly do whatever it takes to develop his skills (including accepting repeated failures). An arrogant man will only do things he knows he is already good at.

-- A confident man is teachable. An arrogant man already knows it all and bristles at instruction.

-- A confident man can be vulnerable and ask for help. An arrogant man is closed off to help and feedback.

As I was writing the list above, it struck me that if you removed the words “arrogant man” and replaced them with “Nice Guy,” the profile would still pretty well fit (Hmmmmm, unconsciousness).

Something else about confidence -- it isn’t necessarily the result of being really good at something.

For example a dancer with average skills can dance confidently. Not because he is the best dancer on the floor, but because he enjoys the dance, he is willing to stretch himself, and he is willing to learn from each new experience.

Because he doesn’t compare himself to others for validation, an average dancer can dance with great confidence even while surrounded by much better dancers.

Based on my own experience, most women would rather dance with an average dancer who has confidence than with a superior dancer who is unconsciously arrogant.

Let’s apply confidence to approaching women.

Single guys often bring up the seeming catch 22 of confidence and approaching women. They rightly assert that women are attracted to confident men. They then wrongly assert that confidence comes only from success. Since they can’t be successful without confidence and they can’t be confident until they have success, they will never be able to successfully approach and get a woman.

This fallacy is based on the erroneous belief that you have to be successful to gain confidence. This is far from the truth. Just walking up to a woman and talking to her projects confidence -- even if you aren’t feeling confident. It is action that projects confidence and action that increases the odds of success (a woman isn’t going to go out with you if you never talk to her).

How to become more confident

Here are a few suggestions for becoming more confident.

Build a support system. Find a mentor, coach, trainer, or teacher. Don’t try this on your own. Be willing to ask for the help of someone who can teach you effective skills and give you feedback as you practice these skills.

Be willing to face fears and take risks. Keep doing this until the day you die. Remember, confidence comes from action, not results.

Repetition. Be willing to fail and look foolish over and over again. In many ways, confidence can be boiled down to the awareness that you have done something enough times that you know you will handle what ever happens.

Learn from every experience. There are no mistakes or failures, only learning experiences.

Soothe your anxiety. Breathe and tell yourself that no matter what happens, you will handle it.

Consciously let go of attachment to outcome. Learn to lovingly not give a fuck.

As a confident man, you will walk the planet with purpose and passion. Whether you know it or not, you will be a role model to countless others. Confidence has that effect.

Robert

2015-01-22T22:23:49+00:00

This is very true and those who are in tune with themselves are able to detect this in others. I am in a fraternity at school and a numerous amount of my brothers suffer from this, i.e. frat star at parties but alone they're a different guy. The main difference is the two types of confidence and exuding confidence can draw comparisons to bodybuilding vs weightlifting. While body builders look huge they're usually not all that strong while the 56kg Korean guy can clean and jerk 150kg because his muscle is real and not water filled. Real confidence takes many years to cultivate but it is worth it to put the time in.

getfat · 2015-01-22T23:34:45+00:00

The "fake it til you make it" mentality can be a constructive strategy for introverts when used temporarily. The problem is it becomes a false reality for the introvert. It becomes a crutch and deters them from putting in the work to become the alpha male they aspire to be.

That's how you get those creepy guys that sit alone in the corner of the bar; at some point in the night they muster up the confidence to just start grinding on a random girl w/o talking to them. They will exclaim, "hey i'm successful and confident; why aren't any girls talking to me!". These guys have a low success rate in most scenes for a reason.

You'll notice a lot of field reports on this sub and wonder "how does this guy pull that off?" Certain men are able to pull off these tasks because these individuals are either truly successful or working their butt off to achieve their dreams. I'm referring to the guys that have 16 hour work days. They wake up early with a purpose and don't stop until the job is done.

Usually you'll only see these guys at your local bar/club on a monthly basis. Its because they are constantly re-evaluating themselves, friends, etc. They always ask, "how is this helping me achieve my goal?" before doing any task.

I believe its important to become the man you want to be first. Hit the gym/books/cubicle. You are wasting your time doing anything else. That is how you establish confidence.

dennislang · 2015-01-23T11:39:35+00:00

If you're looking for ideas on how to feel superior through internal development - master your habits.

Over the past 3 weeks, upon hearing the alarm at 6am I would spring out of bed and go downstairs without fail. As a chronic over sleeper - this is huge. Each day I pull this off the habit grows stronger. I've also been cooking my meals and did not have a single takeaway/frozen pizza or other bullshit.

What further helped was reading The Power of Habit, it helped me connect a lot of dots. I realized that in the past few months I've been developing some good habits. It also helped me notice that over these months my willpower 'muscle' has grown stronger.

Now that I've finally convinced myself I'm little more than an animal and I can train myself into doing the right thing I no longer have any doubts about what I can and can't do. Before I may have thought that I can't do something because it is not in my nature. Now I realise that I can make something my nature by doing it. I thought I was a night owl - turns out I'm a morning person after all.

This revelation that I can mold myself into a superior being makes me feel superior.

bullyfootrookie · 2015-01-23T14:38:00+00:00

Agreed with everything said here but I hope you aren't going to just speak negatively about ego and narcissism. They can be very magnetic traits. If people can feel your sense of superiority without you vocalizing it they're attracted to it because they perceive it as self-confidence that's independent of their validation. Obviously, here you're talking about outward arrogance; people can see through that and are repulsed by it. But if you can develop a "silent narcissism" - which granted, is difficult to pull off - it can be an incredibly powerful tool. I can attest to that.

EDIT: I realise you'd show both perspectives but rather I'm curious how you see them as positive traits.

semondemon24 · 2015-01-23T16:27:44+00:00

Illimitableman, this is great insight. A strong ego is poison - it is always hungry for external validation. A strong ego is a derivative of being strongly attached to who you are - a symptom of lower awareness.

Once we all realize we are just random human beings on a random planet in the middle of nowhere, all of a sudden the ego starts to shrink. And we can feel the difference between real confidence and ego.

Confident person: "Can I do x y and z? fuck yea, why not?"

Egotistical person" "Can I do x y and z? fuck yea, why not?"

It all looks the same from the outside...but I bet you one thing is different. The reaction to failure. The person with confidence will take failure as a learning experience. The egotistical? "There were so many reasons why it did not work out! It was not because I fucked up, it is because of reason a b and c that I didn't do it!"

I enjoy your reads. Keep it up brother.

SuperSlavisWife · 2015-01-23T19:20:13+00:00

So you draw your strength from others, rather than yourself. It's a kind of dysfunctional narcissism. It's vain and it's needy. Rather than actually believe you are inherently superior, you only temporarily believe you are superior as long as others are feeding into the delusion you present to the world. I believe a lot of people are doing this shit, instead of self-investing and becoming so powerful that they feel/become superior, they instead try to hustle everyone around them with superficial charm and bullshit persona.

You're one of the few people who have actually noticed the difference between actual narcissism and modern social narcissists. Bravo.

FrameWalker · 2015-01-22T21:41:43+00:00

Here's an interesting corollary. I get pretty excited thinking about this, and so will you.

When you break free from the need for external validation, and become wholly secure and comfortable with yourself you will become addictive to the women in your life. Their entire experience is wrestling with their own insecurity and need for validation. Because of their great empathetic abilities, the women will feel your internal emotional state, and they will feed off of it. If you are confident, they can feel confident. It will feel so good to them.

Conversely if your confidence is external, and the source dries up they will feel your insecurity and feel terrible. If they're not sure they'll keep shit-testing you until they find out. When they're insecure and they need a boost they'll through you a test, and they'll fawn and quiver when you pass.

Becoming a higher value person through self-improvement is essential to maintaining frame, passing shit tests, and being the rock they need.

Johnny10toes · 2015-02-09T01:22:34+00:00

I've been gleefully awaiting your narcissism article so I'm not sure how I missed this. While I've been waiting for you to hand me the answers I've done some research on my own.

I've studied sociopathic stuff and have come to the conclusion that you're right. Stoicism can substitute for the lack of sociopathy. I'm currently at a place where I can stop the reaction process but not quite to the place where I simply observe and act. Fear maybe or I think a lack of experience and confidence. I'll get back to this.

Some of my readings have brought me to a better analytical mind. At first I couldn't fathom how some situations could be manipulated but now ideas seem to almost present themselves to me. Strategic win/win scenarios in the company I work for to put myself in a higher position of power and influence. Money comes with it.

Back to the confidence. You stated somewhere about a positive feedback loop without explaining how to achieve it. Well I found it. I've been doing a negative loop for practically my whole life, and it's essentially the same thing. I suppose your words sparked the hammer/nail area of positive feedback loop in my head and discovered the answer, or my answer, in The Charisma Myth and Prometheus Rising.

In The Charisma Myth I read and carried out a little experiment that showed me how we have an ability to lie to ourselves. At first I was hesitant to start this because it kind of sounds like affirmations.

In Prometheus Rising I learned of the thinker and prover. What the thinker thinks the prover proves. I also learned about my reality, your reality, her reality and used this to observe other people's realities. Or more comically "In what world does she think she's hot?" Well, in her world. I saw it everywhere I looked. Hot girls that think they're not. Ugly guys who think they're hot. Fat girls who seem to carry themselves with the confidence of a fit girl. I came to the conclusion that their confidence or lack thereof is in their own reality. Instead of affirmations I adopted a positive reality. After all the prover finds that my thoughts are correct.

I'd like to add to your idea of ego, confidence. Courage. Courage seems to go hand in hand with confidence in the right scenarios. But you can kind of see the courage, cinfidence and fear in the same package.

Title	Narcissism: The Nuance Between Ego & Confidence
Author	IllimitableMan
Upvotes	68
Comments	23
Date	January 22, 2015 7:24 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2tbgxi/narcissism_the_nuance_between_ego_confidence/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/narcissism-the-nuance-between-ego-confidence.28238 https://theredarchive.com/post/28238