Before I can give the example I want to share with you guys, I need to give you a little information about my native tongue. I am Indian. Hindi is my native language. There are two ways people address you in Hindi. One is when you are addressing someone who is your equal or younger than you, for example "tum" meaning "you". Whereas when you address someone who is your elder, your teacher or anyone who you would want to address with some respect, you'd not use "tum" here but "aap". Both of these words mean the same thing, that is, "you" but their usage is different. This goes for a lot of stuff. Even verbs. "Tum ye karo" and "Aap ye kariye", both mean "You do this" but you'd say the latter to someone who you want to show a little respect (Which we should to strangers!)
I hope that's clear so let me give my anecdote. I joined the gym roughly 4 months ago. I am 28 and have some fat I need to get rid of. There is a guy there who is not actually a trainer, I guess you could say he's a "busboy" of sorts, rearranging weights, putting them back on the rack, helping someone with his bench press etc, you get the gist. When I joined the gym, as is my nature, I treated him with respect as well. I'd use "aap" instead of "tum" and shook his hands when I met him. Slowly I started to notice that he became *too* friendly with me, like, talking to me as if I am his pupil or something. Doing gym for the first time in my life, I had trouble with the barbell curls and he'd say "Dum lagao..kya khaate ho" (Push it, do it, what do you even eat) and general berating stuff making me feel I am too weak. Point to note here is that he used the "tum" version of words instead of "aap". Whereas others were treating him with a lot of rough words, basically, treating him as a busboy. And guess what? He always addressed them with deference and respect. So I am the one who is being nice to him and he chooses to be nice to those who treat him like his inferior.
So, I changed my behaviour like a switch. Overnight. I started being dry and straightforward, not "deigning" to acknowledge his presence until I needed something like a dumbell. When he'd then stay stuff like "Try harder etc", I would look straight into his eyes but say nothing. Guess what? Now he has stopped addressing me as he did and has become much more soft spoken and does not pass any comments to me about my abilities.
I know it's not a huge eye-opening example of the generalized red pill principles, but for me, it was and, I believe the same principle applies in all the human interactions.
Do nice things for people but don't "be" unnecessarily nice to people. They should feel that they need to earn your respect and it's not something you'd give out to everyone. Only then will people respect you. I wish the dynamics weren't like that but like they say: it really do be like that sometimes.
Edit: There are more Indians on this subreddit than I knew. Amazing! आप सब को प्रणाम !
Edit 2 : I think some people are wrongly interpreting what I said and think that I turned into Darth Vader force choking him everytime I see him now. That's not the case. I am still very normal with him. When he helps me fetch something, I still thank him. The only thing that has changed is that he does not try to give me unsolicited comments and knows to mind what he says before me. That's the only thing that has changed. He is respecting the boundary now which he didn't before.
Edit 3: I found a book about this. Haven't read it yet but maybe someone here has?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_People_Play_(book))
Respect is earned, not given away.
There is actually nothing wrong with this. It's establishing a sense of hierarchy. 'You're below me in status, so earn my rewards'.
The whole 'treat everyone as your equal' upsets the natural, subconscious order of things. If you're above someone in value, then they are not your equal. You don't have to be a dick about it, but you should be aware of it.
Like men with women. A lot of men are way above women in the hierarchy. They are bigger, stronger, smarter, achieved more etc. It's why RedPill teaches behaviours that indicate higher status. Women get wet for a guy who ACTS like he is higher than them. Every woman wants the acceptance of a higher value male. Starting acting like you're better, and you'll see their behaviour change.
Respect is not only earned but it is subconsciously commanded.
While there is a hierarchy of social order it isn't absolute as value isn't absolute. This is what separates charismatic people with regular people and why people are attracted to them. They subconsciously radiate their value but not by emphasizing how they are above someone. They treat everyone with genuine respect.
You don't think the janitor knows that you are above him in value but try thanking him or having a quick chat when you see him. He'll instantly feel better about himself and most definitely respect and admire you even more.
“How to Win Friends and Influence People”
Influence is the key. If you want to convince others to believe in you, you must first believed and have a strong faith of your own doing.
This is a must read if you want people to change their behavior towards you.
1) Fundamental Techniques in Handling People. 2) Six Ways to Make People Like You. 3) How to Win People to Your Way of Thinking. 4) Be a Leader – How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment.
If you think these words are bullshit, think again. This covers influence and social proof part of 48 laws. Imagine the leverage you can have if your worst enemy is close to you and think you are his loyal allies.
If you can’t handle people’s emotions you will have hard time in life. No one will be willingly join your side no matter the cause.
I always do that. Which is why this happened in the first place. Because I did treat him as my equal and that's what I ALWAYS do. But he decided that just because I am nice to him, he can step over all the boundaries. If I am not enjoying someone's idea of "banter" then that someone should better stop. I am not obligated to be friends with him. I hope you see what I mean.
This is probably because the busboy does not get many chances to feel superior. Some people just don't reciprocate respect because they don't get it naturally.
deadass, you sound like a typical desi uncle / father. you can't understand the intricacies in the guy's communication so you automatically assume disrespect.
Lolwat. If you can read, you'll see that my behaviour to him didn't change. I still thank him. I just set some boundaries. Outside of that, nothing changed. And I don't have to "understand" his intricacies in the gym. I am not there to fucking make small talk to him or make friends with him. I want to be left alone and concentrate on my workout instead of answering his comments. You sound like the kind of person who thinks everyone is obligated to be your friend just because you are nice to him. And wtf with the "typical desi uncle father? " The fuck does that even mean?
"So, I changed my behaviour like a switch. Overnight. I started being dry and straightforward, not "deigning" to acknowledge his presence until I needed something like a dumbbell."
Bro, Do YoU hAvE cOmPrEhEnSiOn IsSuEs ??
You even spell behavior in the British Indian way.
Yes, and? You really do have trouble comprehending. Did you miss the last part of the post? Do you have trouble understanding the idea of context? Yes, I did change my behavior. But to draw the boundary. Not to shit on him or misbehave with him or to not thank him anymore when he helped.
You can read sure but that's not the problem. The problem is not the eyes, fam, it's somewhere else.
Exactly. And not like I did not know this before. But knowing something and it really "hitting" you are two different things. We all need this "hit" to really feel it. It was a very tiny and unimportant incident but it did make me think about the dynamics of human interactions in a profound way.
I like this post a lot because it points out the natural order of subtle dominance games in our species, but I also like to think some of us are evolving into desiring other ways of interacting, too. Your words kinda prove it, don't they? The very fact you wanted to be nice in the first place and it surprises you others did not really shows what your original priorities and desires for interacting with others are. I have been the same, but with experience you start to get more guarded when you deal with new people because you never know if they will take advantage of you or not.
But lemme tell ya man, if you treated me the way you treated this "busyboy" originally, I'd reciprocate, we'd have a good time and all would be well. I think many red-pillers would, honestly... so don't get caught in the trap that your initial approach is always wrong, just become self-aware and wise enough to know what kind of human you're dealing with and interact accordingly.
This initially meant that everyone should be treated equally before the law (that’s what “all men are created equal” means in the Declaration of Independence). The meaning just got bastardized by modern egalitarians.
Anyone who's actually had contact with aristocrats, high status people knows that this isn't true. The status bean counters obsessing over rank and respect are always plebs, either they're new rich or someone faking it. If you know you are high status, and that other high status people recognise your status, you don't need people below you to validate your position. All the high rank people I've met are extremely accomodating to everyone and never get swayed if someone doesn't give them their due 'respect'. They have he luxary of not having to give a shit
Well said mate I fully agree
Not necessarily true either. From personal experience, there are plenty of insecure jackasses on the top as well, the kind of people that perceive everything as a slight.
I heard somewhere that sometimes when people are coming in for job interviews the recruiter will ask the receptionist how the interviewee treated them and if they treated them like shit then they wouldn’t get hired and they’d only hire people that treated everyone with respect.
That's only in a few select examples and most likely for low paying jobs or small offices where the receptionist is one of the few employees. I interviewed and hired many candidates back at my old finance gig, NEVER did we give a shit about what the receptionist thought of the candidate.
Lmao nobody wants to hear the receptionist opinion
The only men that are higher status than the women that matter, that is, the minority of young, attractive, healthy, fertile, and agreeable women, are the even smaller minority of HIGH VALUE men. That is why these women are always complaining about not finding a "real man" or a "good man." They are competing for this narrow sliver of conspicuously superior men. Meanwhile, ALL non-high value straight men with sex drives are competing for them. High value men don't have to compete because they are the prize and they know it.
Also, "earning someone's rewards" just reinforces the superior/inferior dynamic. If you try to "earn" their "rewards," they will usually do several things:
The thing is, people have greater or lesser value CONTEXTUALLY, so it's fine to recognize that. In any case, we are mostly equal under the law, unless we are an ex-con with felony on our records.
Also, even if we are unequal in terms of innate abilities, it is bad form to flaunt that knowledge. Are you going to go into a restaurant and talk down to the staff just because they may not make as much money as you or have as much education? You'll look like an asshole and they may spit in or do worse to your food. Instead, you act polite, and they act polite, and you both pretend to some level of equality.
That's black and white thinking. Nobody said you have to treat people poorly to show you're higher status. There is a whole grey area of other behaviour which shows higher status. Red Pill behaviours and mentalities are 95% based on theory of status and hierarchy.
Touche. It is a grey area. As someone else pointed out, people in the upper echelons of society will often affect a "common touch," because they are secure in their knowledge of their superior status, and it is considered bad form to flaunt it. On the other hand, even though it is considered bad form, some will act like jerks as a naked display of power to signal the apparent interchangeability of the people supposedly underneath them.
Yes, that's why I love RedPill. So much of the suggested behaviours/tactics/mentalities are like the 'cool' way to embody status.
I agree with you completely. If you're high status, why would you be bitter, mean, an asshole to others? You'd be showing everyone they effect you emotionally.
It's why I love the idea of frame. You are the shit, you're happy, fulfilled and everything outside of that you have amused mastery toward.
Would you advise against dating a higher value female then yourself?
Not at all. I would say that your game and frame need to be strong.
How are you measuring her value? Is it looks, money, career sort of stuff?
If so, that's superficial stuff. You can have more value than her in your personality. You can lead a relationship, be much better emotionally, better sense of humour. You can bring excitement. Lots of stuff that has more to do with YOU than her superficial stuff.
I've dated women who earn more than me, had longer careers, better assets etc. But on a human to human level, I know they are all like five year olds. They all want to submit to a strong male. Value is something they feel from you.
If you are intimidated by them, then it won't work.
If you're self assured, have strong game and presence then their surface value can mean nothing.
I work as a waiter, when I first started I was polite and respectful, and almost lost my mind and sanity due to being everyone's bitch, now thanks to TRP I realized the same as you, good post, thanks for sharing your wxperience
What did u do when you realise that your are ''everyone's bitch'' ? How did you make it right and gain respect?
I second this. As a waiter, you're pretty much getting paid to be everyone's bitch. How did you change this...without getting fired?
I worked as a waiter, but people thought I was the owner because of my extensive knowledge and body language.
sometimes you have to increase your own knowledge and get some scars in life before you earn people's respect. people can usually tell the reality of a person by the subtleties of their body language - aka you can't force respect like OP has portrayed in this post.
probably because you were too old to be a waiter lmao
Hahaha Right? Hahahahahhahagagagagagahahahahhahahahqhqhahsjtjrlwkiabfbe
I have trouble with this. I respect people who are kind and show respect and try to do it myself but it just backfires a lot and I end up being a doormat. By the time I try to establish more boundaries, no one is having it.
It always ends as a power play unfortunately.
This quote has immensely helped me regarding this topic.
Recently and sometimes as an experiment, I try to overflatter people to remind me how cringey it is to give too much respect. Try it and tell me whatnyounthing. Side note: this exercise may backfire if you use it in the wrong context.
Can you share what you saw and felt doing this experiment?
Try it yourself. Just flatter someone way more than warranted.
You'll see that it's demeaning to both. The feelings are: inauthenticity, embarrassment, suspicion (!), hurt.
For some reason, women made nice guys who always flatter too much. I know, I was one. But by dialling it to 11 a few times I still saw how bad it was and how unfair it was to the other person.
Nowadays in the rare cases I respect someone new you can be sure that I mean it.
Of course society tries to go the opposite way with the respect everyone crap. NO. You do it if you want to. Not me. I learnt my lesson.
It’s so hard not to when people treat you so well.
I see it as walking the line between the light and the dark (star wars heh). You do not want to be in a position where you are taken for granted while at the same time preventing yourself from becoming an actually bad person. Lines can blur.
It is a good point here. Charismatic people walk this line with ease and grace. So the question then is how do we develop the skills of walking that line without faltering to either side? Is it the simple math of awareness, practice, and repetition? Or is there something deeper and more fundamental? I have high hopes that SR is a big part of that equation.
I think that part of walking that line without faltering is by going too far sometimes. Just to show that you still have that edge. I’m the most charismatic guy I’ve ever met lol and I do this a lot, confidently insulting and then going back to charismatic if that makes sense
So error on the side of arrogance 👍 makes sense
I think it's showing you're willingness and fitness to joust. Letting others know you are capable (if they ever doubt) but then bringing it back to charisma showing your restraint and kindness.
Almost every social interaction is a power play
In my experience the best way to gain self respect is going through something really hard and grindy. Could be a training program where you push a little to much volume or a period of time where you work untill you feel drained. It's a great way to get DGAFA.
There's a nuance you're missing. Being kind is NOT the same as lacking a backbone. Being kind comes from a place of knowing your own power, from a place of self-trust. Not having a backbone and being 'nice' comes from a place of weakness, deference, lack in self-trust. People who are 'nice' are being 'nice' to create a feeling of belonging within a group, to secure a place in the social hierarchy.
Someone like the Rock is a good example of a kind man, he's very kind to everyone most of the time but I'm sure you don't want to piss that guy off, he has very firm boundaries and will bury you alive methaphorically speaking. The Rock doesn't give a shit about belonging to some loser group, he's his own man and does not give a shit about 'social status' and all the games that come with it.
Be respectful but don't take shit from anybody. One interaction with anyone at the start will set the precedent for the future. Have your frame fail the first time or have it stand strong the first time, the rest of the times will follow this pattern, regardless of where you are in life.
The first frame/impression does set precedence, but you absolutely build yourself up and escape/change the frame. It's harder, but it's absolutely doable.
This is an example of what I call the "Law of Conservation of Shittiness," which is something I discovered when I first started working in construction, years ago.
Everyone has some level of shittiness that they need in their interactions with people. For a healthy person, it's near zero. But let's say the worst asshole you ever met had a shit-level requirement (SLR) of 10.
When you interact with a guy like that, if you're friendly and respectful, he'll do whatever he has to do to bring the "group SL" up to 10. If you start dishing it back, he'll dial his shittiness down, maybe to a 5 or 6, because now you are contributing some of your own. If you go full 10 asshole on him, he'll become very docile and manageable.
I guess you could even go to 11 or higher, and see what happens. Try it in the lab under controlled conditions with safety equipment.
Anyway, you can only deal with these guys by being worse than them.
Unfortunately the Principle of the Bigger Asshole says that the guy with the higher SLR sets the standard for any interaction. If a guy with an SLR of 2 interacts with a guy with an SLR of 10, the SLR for that interaction will be 10. The "nicer" guy has no effect at all on the group SLR. He can only adjust his behavior to deal with the worse guy. He can appear to dominate the interaction by ramping his SL way up, temporarily dropping the other guy's SL to zero. But in fact, he's just reacting, and therefore being dominated, even while appearing to take charge.
You really can't win with these guys. And that is why it's just best to just stay away from assholes.
A person's natural SLR can sometimes be modified by a humiliating ass-beating, or by him getting a girlfriend. But often these changes are temporary. A guy with SLR 10 generally remains that throughout his life, which often ends with him being chalked off on the sidewalk.
Nice one, this should be a Post in itself
Spot on. A guy I know who's an absolute dick had to change his behaviour after he got married. He still does stupid shit though to get attention.
Bob Sutton has given talks, and written books about assholes. It's actually been shown that 1 asshole can bring down productivity in the whole office, and that if you sit close enough to an asshole, you'll eventually become one too, even if you happen to be nice.
Not that women can't be raging assholes themselves. But I know a few married couples where, after a few months, the wife said, "If you ever speak to me like that again, you'll be looking for another wife," and she was justified, and the guy did get a grip, and they went on to have a good marriage, and everyone was better off.
Now don't anyone confuse this with the general notion that guys don't know how to act right until a stronk woomen shows them the way.
Science is endlessly interesting, isn't it?
It is. Thank you for your insights.
I have a few assholes in the family that I can't avoid all the time. Any advice?
I have a sister like that. The only one of us who still has contact with her is one of her daughters.
This daughter is an exceptional person with great natural people skills. She manages her mother by being friendly and affectionate with her until the second mom steps on her toes, and then just immediately leaving the room, with no excuses or apologies or arguments. She'll just go vacuum a carpet, or groom the cat, whatever.
Even as a kid, I've seen her get up from the dinner table without a word, go to her room and go to bed, because mom just went too far. Even then she seemed to realize that mom couldn't be argued with or fixed, only "managed."
I think a lot of these people have trouble with the idea of limits or boundaries, and you can't change them, you can only show them, "If you want my company, don't do X, Y, or Z. Period."
It's too bad, because half the fun of friendship is not having to worry about the other person, just being able to enjoy their company. But you can't relax like that around these people.
Wow, I do the exact same thing. I distance myself from the person. I figured I'm being avoidant, and that I should confront them instead but, as you've said, you can't change these people.
The other thing is that if you do set a boundary, it goes 2 ways. They'll be setting boundaries as well. It seems like it would lead to a walking on eggshells scenario.
I believe conflict is a good thing, and that a good friendship should involve some fighting, and enough trust that you'll still be friends after. Basically, setting the ego aside to maintain the relationship. This would allow people to relax as well.
Yeah, I agree with most of what you say. I guess my premise in dealing with these people is that they aren't capable of friendship. So maybe it's best to step back, put a mental box around them, view them as problems to be managed, and save your time and energy for other people.
For me, this is often worth doing, just so I don't feel that I am slinking around in fear. But there's a big difference between the way you confront a friend in a friendly way, hoping to improve things, and the way you lock horns with some demon-possessed asshole just to show him you aren't afraid of him.
This is a perfect narrative of the most rudimentary street rule.
By treating the busboy with respect, you changed the power dynamic expectation for someone who is probably generally rude to others but doesn't show it except to people he feels equal to/superior to. He probably talks this way with others at his status level but hides it from higher social value individuals (ie gym patrons)
I'm guessing if you were nice to someone that's nice, it might not have turned out this way.
It seems like the lesson really is: Don't get too friendly with lower social value individuals because they might be rude?
But really?
Just hold your frame. Laugh off his comments. Don't take them to heart.
If you’re someone people feel they need to earn respect FROM/get validation FROM, they will respect you by default.
It can be comparable to attraction. Lower SMV guys can still lay hot girls, but they will face a barrage of shit tests. High SMV guys can lay hot girls and maybe get shit tested a few times.
High value men don’t get disrespected. People seek their respect. Low value men get disrespected whenever. They have nothing of value to offer.
The best way to command respect is:
REMEMBER: if you are trying to get validation/respect from someone, you are putting them above you. Never aim for respect. Simply remove your attention from those who don’t give it.
Holy shit. This happened to me as well. I bet the bus boy is just some average dude slightly bigger than you. In jaise chutiyon ko bhaav dena bandh kar diya hai maine ( I don't pay attention to these idiots anymore )
Lol that's the funny thing, he isn't. Shorter than me and I am not even tall. Dunno, maybe he was just overcompensating.
lol bet ya'll are shorter than 5'10 and lack any athletic ability. i also bet ya'll have never held restaurant jobs, construction jobs, or janitorial jobs. let me guess - techie fobs from boston / duke university?
don't call a guy working to pick up the weights left by people at a gym a chutiya, ok bhai? have some respect for the work ethic and struggle before you diss someone out.
Where the fuck did I call him a chutiya? Do you have comprehension issues? Because I think you do. Maybe get checked for dyslexia?
"In jaise chutiyon ko bhaav dena bandh kar diya hai maine ( I don't pay attention to these idiots anymore )"
Yeah, it's called reading fam.
That's a comment. Not my text. Learn to see the thread properly.
I stand by my words. Your post isn't red pill and abundant so much as it is insecure. They way you've reacted to my comments just furthers solidifies that.
"Don't be unnecessarily nice" is pretty vague advice.
If you're nice and friendly you may potentially more interesting people that are (sometimes unexpectedly) nice and friendly to you in return. If you're dry and straightforward you're probably going to avoid more assholes though. It's "approach motivation" vs "avoidance motivation" and it has nothing to do with (self-)respect.
I think there are different kinds of respect. One kind of respect is the one from pupil to master. Unless you're really good at something, nobody should feel that they have to earn this kind of respect from you.
Another kind of respect is respect of equals. It's when I, being a free person and being aware of it, respect the freedom and sovereignty of another person. Nobody has to earn it from you neither because if you don't respect the freedom of other people, you don't respect your own freedom as well. This is the default level. This is essentially the same thing as "holding frame".
So it's up to you whether to be or not to be nice. But if you're respectful to your sovereignty (i.e. holding frame), you won't shake hands and smile to a person that treats you like shit.
This is the real answer here. You do not need to avoid being nice, you just need to clearly establish your boundaries. Don't laugh at jokes you don't like, do not be agreeable, and do not be nice to people that disrespect you. There are two kinds of nice people: the ones that are nice because that's the only thing they know, and the ones that are nice because they enjoy being nice, even though they are very capable of evil. Aim to be later, not the former.
The other thing about being polite? You quickly find out the true character of those around you. People who are programmed to take advantage will do it early and often. Identify them and avoid. Others show their wonderful nature. Those are the ones to stick with.
this. this is so rare in my generation (im 19), kids have figured out how to make sociopathy a very normal part of their psychology when it comes to hiding their true nature
But of course, they cant hold themselves to being "genuine" for very long, and then they get filtered out. I can easily tell after hanging out with someone for a couple of days if they are really just a fake person or actually worth spending time with by looking for congruence, and also background. could expand on this kind of shit for hours as i have been fooled by many kids in the past
In regards to background, I have noticed some constant factors about the (lack of) male role models that grew up in their lives... Not all, but the overwhelming majority.
So very true man. I completely agree with you. I grew up with my mother and father equally in my life. You can tell the difference between kids who are in a similar situation and others that have some fallacies due to lack of disciplinary action in the course of their growth
I understand what you mean. Trust me, had I observed that that's just how he is, I wouldn't have minded it at all. I like quirky/honest people more than the sweet-but-knife-in-the-back kinds that you generally meet. It was his complete opposite behavior with others that made me realize that it's time to draw some boundaries!
> had I observed that that's just how he is, I wouldn't have minded it at all.
> It was his complete opposite behavior with others that made me realize that it's time to draw some boundaries!
I see a problem here. His behavior with others has nothing to do with _your_ personal boundaries.
It does when the boundaries are the same. They don't want to participate in his "banter" with him and they let him know that by being rude and he leaves them alone. I do not want to participate in his banter and I try to mind my own business in the gym still being nice to him and so I am open to repeated intrusions? Not buying that, sorry.
The policy I follow, which isn't fool-proof, is to default to being polite and respectful. Then, if a person takes that as a cue to behave rudely or disdainfully towards me, I ghost them, meaning, I withdraw attention from them, and redirect it elsewhere. Over time, I accumulate people who treat me with respect. If one of them lapses, I don't reward the lapse, I just redirect my attention elsewhere. I accumulate more people. Eventually, I am left with a fair number of somewhat reliable people, and I don't waste time and energy chasing after difficult or ill-tempered people, nor do I validate them in any way by acknowledging their existence.
The reactions from these people is an initial sense of triumph, followed by a bit confusion, as they see me interacting with other people and the other people enjoying my company. Some of these people will then realize they made a mistake, and will try to pretend they didn't slight me. If they are high enough value and / or it was a minor slight, I'll pretend I wasn't slighted and things will normalize. If they are low value and / or it was a major slight, they will have to work a bit harder, and most won't even bother because of their egos. The people I have trouble with are "rivals" who constantly oscillate between building rapport and micro-aggressions.
This is exactly what I do , I just never verbalized it. I usually give people one chance and if they show their true colors I go cold, and they typically avoid me or over compensate with friendliness.
Read a studt like 20+ years ago that showed that when someone acts disinterested in someone, that person will naturally try to win the other over, and later like that person more.
Used to use this as a dating technique. Can't say it always worked, but it definitely worked on the psychos.
Having hard time to agree with some of the things you said. What's wrong with him trying to make some jokes and friends with you? Are you the prime minister of India? It also seems like he saw you as a potential friend and you just analyzed it as he was trying to put you down. Every person has his own way to connect. Is showing some comfort from the other side stands for a lose?
He was not trying to be "friends" with me. If you were there, you'd know. One sentence can be said in many different ways and intonations. His wasn't really that friendly. And did I ask for it? Do I have the obligation to get involved with friendships in the gym? Do you REALLY think that telling someone "what do you even eat.." and implying "Oh, you can't even lift x kg on a barbell pfft " is a friendly gesture? I sure don't think so and I have no obligation to entertain his humor. It's not like I straight up became to rude to him. I was still soft spoken and just tried to not converse. But he kept doing it repeatedly and that's why I had to draw a line.
Like, on one hand it could be playfull banter and spicy teases that, although they might be a little too much, you could "enjoyed" and tried to practice male banter with not great consequences.
On the other hand, he should know his place. You weren't up for that which is fine. Im glad you didnt let him cross your bondaries.
OP has never held a job other than desk job, so wouldn't know. OP's post reeks of insecurity with forcing respect from another rather than earning it. if OP took the shit and kept getting stronger over time, he would've earned said "busboy's" respect.
even the term "busboy" is something a stupid uncle in Delhi would call people working in restaurants. that supposed "busboy" probably has more scars than OP could ever imagine.
I don’t know, kind of sounds like a shit test from him.
it was. i disagree with OP completely; nothing was earned.
This concept exists in Spanish as well. You address people with status equal or less than yours as "tu" meaning "you." If you want address someone with respect, usually en elder, as "usted" also meaning "you."
But if you are too much of an asshole as well, tested
This is a really interesting topic. It sounds to me like the guy in your story was trying to add value by motivating you (almost like a coach) - which indicates he wanted to add value.
Adding value is a form of investment. People don't invest in each other unless they admire/respect the other person. Teachers can have a mutual respect for their pupils; it is not mutually exclusive.
Yup. Its the last thing to get tilted off from in a gym.
Anyone - smaller or larger criticizes me in the gym its extra motivation .
Anyone who has time to criticize you isn’t focusing enough on their own workout. I’ve never seen that happen irl to be honest. I mean aside from something like “Push harder, you pussy! My grandma could lift that shit!”
you can tell that OP found someone lower in perceived social value than himself aka he thought, "I'm so high and mighty, why is this stupid busboy taunting me." thus he proceeded to distance himself and treat someone who could be an ally, as a lower caste human. OP sounds like he might be Brahmin Hindu, but his short height and virgin attitude has led to anger and disdain.
It's obvious really, don't follow a fixed pattern and try to be always consistent , dont make yourself a certain kind of person!! Do what is necessary, what is write...
One of my favorite quotes-- The strong prey on the weak so that the weak can get stronger!!
Still gives me goose bumps.If you are responsible for everyone's well being you would show them that they can only earn respect by being adept and proper!
You are absolutely right. Being submissive to people as a man will repel them as it implies weakness and weakness in men is ugly, disgusting and intolerable in any society, no matter if European, South Asian or North American.
Funny, I have a gym story as well. This person who's a low-taker , homosexual and incoherent rambler started standing next to me in the locker room and telling me these long winded stories that were impossible to follow. You'd get tired within 15 seconds and you'd have to lean in just to hear what he was saying, but he was so enveloped in his story that it would be rude to just turn around.
Anyway, despite suffering incredibly by humoring him (he made me uncomfortable and it was a lot of work just to make out what words he was saying), I gained nothing from being nice. In fact, within 5 minutes he called me out for losing track of what he was saying " i see you're not paying attention fully so I'll stop".
This made me realize that by humoring someone with a mental health problem with undeserved amounts of attention, I was doing nobody a favor. A mental health problem is not a free pass, I should treat him just like anyone else if he's going to behave in way that exceeds a basic 30-second courtesy for someone with a language barrier.
Its a good philosophy to start out being respectful and nice. But it also a good philosophy, if that respect is not reciprocated, to bare your fangs once in a while and set some boundaries.
Good for you tum tum
Nah man, completely wrong. Sorry about whats happened to you, but this seems more like your salty rather than an actual red pill lesson.
Kindness costs nothing, and its one of the most fucking alpha level things you can do. You're actively so fucking alpha, you're able to offer small levels of generosity, respect, and protection to anyone. You really want to tell me people prefer to hang with people who are dicks to them? Hell no.
If you're nice to someone (not overly, I mean like you're just pleasant), they in turn WANT to be nice to you. If I spit in your face, you're not going to turn around and thank me, are you?
Hell, one of the best moments I've ever had was just being kind to a jackass. We were in the gym and I was benching about 50% my max as a warm up. He asked to work in and was stood with some friends. I said sure. It was a busy day. They all start working in and I ask if i can do my next set, and the main jackass tells me that they're actually taking the bench, and I can have it later. Odd, seeing as I'm bigger than them all, but ok. I say nah, and to let me bench. He tries to go for another set so I can't pull him off it, and as he'd just finished a set, hes struggling. In fact, he;s struggling so much he drops the bar onto his chest, and his friends start trying to lift it.
Now, it was 100kg, not my heaviest, but clearly these twinky bois were biting off more than they could chew. With both friends trying to lift it, it was not crushing the jackass, but he was in major pain. I come over, grab the bar, and lift it off him, and secure it. Guy goes to the bathroom and the PT who'd run over when it happened but hadn't got there before I fixed it asked what happened. I tell him. The three twinks come back and thank me, and jackass apologises for taking the bench. I tell them not to be dicks like that again, because next time I'd not help. They always come say hi and have actually spotted me once or twice since, are always asking about lifting advice and generally treating me as if I'm their fucking king.
Little bit of kindness goes a long way, is free to give, and if entirely alpha.
You make some interesting observations but the dude is probably just a douche who is annoyed he works at a gym.
At first I treat everyone I meet with a baseline level of respect but the key is to have firm boundaries. If someone who worked at my gym told me I need to eat more in a non-joking way I would tell them to fuck off.
Pranam bhrata. Mehnat karo. Abhi weights utha rahe ho, kuch mahinon mein ladkiyan uthaoge.
Mera utha hi nahi, madat kar do uwu
You know what? As a South Indian that speaks passable Hindi, I still use the honorifics on my travel with waiters, service staff and the like. They haven't "disrespected" me in any sense, and have actually shown they like it by being extra nice to me in return. (Of course if they were to be obnoxious, I could easily flip the swtich as well).
What I mean is, context, the other person, and your demeanour all count towards how people react to you. This might be a case of "holding the frame" as well.
Ninja edit: when Hindi-speaking folks visit the South, deign to speak only in Hindi, and use "tu" and "tum" liberally, it comes across as rude, the S. Indian ways of addressing people being more genteel.
That's just the language difference. They don't mean to be rude. They are not being condescending. And I'd much rather speak either in your state's native language (if I can) or if not, respectfully use Hindi. Because I think Hindi is a better option than using a language which was enforced upon us during the colonial rule.
This has been unequivocally false in my experience. My kindness gets me all sorts of action.
I learned this too, it's weird but oh well.
On the other hand, being nice and gentle to someone is exactly an indicator of your confidence and strength. You do not need to bark like an anxious dog, you are aware of your capabilities and position and can afford to be gentle. I mean you can say it gentle and yet firm, polite and yet assertive.
Don't be overly nice but also don't be on your high horse all the time. You should still give everyone a general respect, higher or lower status. This is one of the keys of being a leader, to lead by example. Trust me, Trump or any other president doesn't gaf if you respect them or not...because they know their own value and they don't need you to tell them. I guarantee you that not everyone in your life will respect you, and you can't make them, no matter what your status is. In regards to the bus boy, I think you rightfully gave him respect (not sure how overly nice you were), but you did not inform him of your status due to your response to him. You allowed him to criticize you, and he only felt inclined to do so because of your body language AND your niceness/openness. In addition, your respect towards him helped him feel like he would have permission to help or insight you. In conclusion, you should have shown him the respect he deserves as a bus boy while also making your status apparent with your tone of voice, body language and confidence.
You just summarized exactly what I learned from this experience. Thanks!
This is how you make friends. Give him some shit talk back and see if he can handle it. Once a common ground is formed friendship can grow
Holy Crap. This is the story of my life. I'm genuinely a nice person and have no quarrel with others. But the ones who I befriend, most often betray me and treat me like dirt.
lol. I learned long ago to not be so friendly, and this seems to be helping out. Your story confirmed what I've discovered.
Thanks Bro. Jai Hind!!!
"Treat someone like you're equal and they'll automatically believe they're your superior."
Sounds like you lost a potential friend there buddy.
On a sidenote: aap in Dutch means monkey
It is amazing how quickly the oppressed become the oppressor once they're given even a little bit of power.
It is conditioned in humans not to stay at the bottom of the pecking order if they can help it. Men who are on the bottom are generally more aggressive and agitated statistically than those towards the top.
That’s interesting. I japan there is different version of you and a whole set of words beyond that. There’s a more formal version you use with everyone you don’t know. Service staff included. Casual is saved for friends and family. While there might be some old school families where you see the father formally you usually use the casual form with most families. There’s even phrases that indicate someone feels like you’re using the wrong tense that translate roughly to “you’re too familiar” and “why so stand offish?”
I heard it’s the same in Italian. Someone who might actually be from there could correct me but there’s the tu vs lui/lei form and it’s used based on how familiar you are and you won’t use tu on a service staff member because you don’t know them like that.
Interesting that Hindi has it as a term of direct above / below. What would you use with grand parents? Colleagues? Customers?
Fucking chutiya, so you took an anecdote from your life and designed a theory around it?
Guess what? That chapri was an asshole. "Tum", "Aap" doesn't make a difference with how someone might see you. We have the same thing in Marathi (Tumhi, Aapan). Your post is dealing with bullying not about those words causing the bullying.
that's a slippery slope. try to be nice unless proven otherwise.
That is what a theory is. You observe and then draw conclusions.
"that's a slippery slope. try to be nice unless proven otherwise."
The whole incident is about how he "proved otherwise."
"Bullying?" Where did you get bullying from? He was not berating in a harsh way. It was just unwelcome banter. I don't find it amusing and I didn't need it. Neither did I feel bullied. I don't give two shits about what he thinks and that's exactly what I let him know with the stare and he acts much more as he should have now as he should have had in the first place.
That's not theory, is it? If I see a black swan, I cannot theorize that all swans are black.
Why can it not? Can you conclusively prove that just because I observed something, it can't possibly be a theory? Do I need to publish it in the lancet or the DSM first?
You don't just observe once and then draw a conclusion from it. It's much more then that.
It seemed like he straight up didn't respect you whatsoever and it doesn't have to do with you being too nice. You draw from one incident without looking at other variables and come to the conclusion that I was nice thus I wasn't shown respect.
That is not a theory.
And why did he do that? He didn't know me. I didn't know him. No incident. Nothing. A couple of other people joined at the same time because they filled the form next to me. He didn't get over-involved with them. Why did he decide to just " not respect me" whatsoever?
Why? I'll tell you why. Because he overstepped the boundary that I, unlike others who treat him like a busboy, did not explicitly draw before him. There were no other variables. Was that written on my face? "That is not a theory" Well, then you might as well just delete this whole subreddit if you can confidently claim that just because it was one person's experience, it cannot be a theory.
I didn't observe "once". Just because I shared this experience doesn't make the one and only. Stop assuming stuff about me.
He never had respect for you period. It could be any number of things you were small, weak, you carried yourself poorly or whatever. I don't know the whole situation and you are just presenting your side of the situation and extrapolating something from personal experience and trying to say it's a "Theory"
Take a look at other theories on this sub. They are backed up by not just from personal examples but human psychology, cognitive biases, behavioral economics and not just a singular personal experience.
To counter your theory: "I'm really nice to everyone: the janitors at my gym, the waiters, front desk, or even the bus driver. I have a quick chat ask them how things are, have a little banter and be on my way. The janitor closes the gym a little later for me if I'm running late, the waiters get me a more reserved table in the back for my dates, the bus driver waits couple minutes longer if the train is held back"
You have no obligation to believe my story. I could be lying. I could be making it up for karma fishing. Who knows?
Btw, I did not even use the word "theory" anywhere in the title or the text. The flair has been set to "example". How relevant is the example to the redpill theories can be decided by the community. That's why I shared it here. No need to lecture me on semantics here.
Which is exactly why that doesn't make it a theory and what I was getting at...
Idk about that, a lot of people here use formal words even for younger/inferior people.
No harm in showing respect to young people, is there?
There's a bus boy at my local gym as well. I'm a naturally friendly guy. I even gave him 100 bucks for navratri. But he knows the hierarchy and is definitely respectful to me. Aap/आप is used.
PS -
ਅਸੀਂ ਹਰ ਜਗ੍ਹਾ ਹਾਂ!
हम हर जगा है!
Lo the ps is so true ,i didnt even expect ki yaha bhi indian dikhenge lol
ਪਾਕਿਸਤਾਨ ਦੀ ਮਾ ਦਾ ਭੋਸਦਾ ਵੀਰ!
पाकिस्तान की माँ का भोसड़ा भ्राता!
So basically you lost your shit cause you can't lift enough?
Who the fuck takes those comments to heart?
Where did I "lose" it? Just because I don't want/need his input and just want him to give me the dumbbell and let me get on with my exercise with whatever my capabilities are doesn't mean I "lost" it. I didn't ask for his comments. I don't need his comments. That's the whole point here. Whatever happened to let me do my gym time and leave me the f*** alone? Just because I don't have earphones stuffed into my ears doesn't mean I am obligated to listen to anyone's comments.
Treat them for what they are. Indian here too. It’s ne/neenga for tum/aap in Tamil.
Can relate to this; if you don't value yourself (and your own peace of mind) how the hell do you expect others to do that for you?
A.K.A. don't be nice without a reason or for an agenda. You don't owe them anything.
don't worry... i would never be nice to an indian male. they are all dark and wimpy and so pretentious. they even sometimes think they are as good as white people.
Don't know about white people but CERTAINLY not as smart you!
You don't have to be abrasive either, and you can be amicable without being needy. People start off at a default level of respect, and that can go up or down. For me that's a little above neutral. Unless someone is trying to sell me something, I assume people don't suck until they give me reason to think otherwise.
That gym guy came off in a super needy way that assumed things you didn't agree to instead of letting a relationship form naturally. He's acting like you're suddenly best friends, and that's puts people off as much as some nice guy bringing some random girl flowers and saying she's his girlfriend now. He's not a trainer, but want's to be one. He's the needy nice guy virgin of wannabe trainers.
Good post
It’s a bit sad that this is the game we have to play, that we cant treat others with too much kindness otherwise we get exploited for our kindness. We are no better than chickens and their pecking order. We are simply more sophisticated and subtle in our actions upholding the hierarchy, such as in your example, saying “you” in a different way. Rather than with chickens, that literally peck each other to establish dominance
People work with what never signals you send them. You put the guy on top of you by saying “aap” or whatever like “sir”, it’s almost the guy’s obligation at that point to treat you as inferior
Tit for tat has been shown to be the best strategy for optimal one on one interaction.
Bohot badhiya mere bhai. Like this example, dynamics with girls work the same . Way to go bhai.
Interesting take that hasn't been discussed here a lot. I deal with this a lot too and many others on this Thread seem to do so as well, maybe because of mobbing in school they feel the need to appease everyone and don't want to be disliked by anyone.
Two tips that I have implemented that I think are important. First, I differentiate between nice and kind. Being nice is the thing we try to purge in the world. It's trying to achieve something by seemingly appeasing another person's demands. It is actually, in the end, not nice as it just serves as a means to an end, and that end is often the friend zone.
Being kind for me means I treat other people the way I want to be treated. So, yes, I shake the hand of the janitor and the receptionist and I buy my friends a beer occasionally without expecting anything in return. If friends help me out with bigger things I will also reciprocate.
Another important distinction to make is friends. Most people around you are, in fact, not your friends. They will lose interest in you if you don't provide them any value and every help they provide to you or request from you is a transaction. These people are quick to move oj from you and lose their respect for you of you invest too much or ask too much from them without giving anything in return.
Letting people in too close too fast will make them lose respect for your time and person. A good example are flatmates. I prefer to keep it professional with those as any friendship gesture will be taken for granted and seen as an invitation to completely drop any respect.
So I'd say for anyone who does not slip from the acquaintance category in the friend category (and obviously that's the majority of people) investing a bit less and makong yourself a bit more reserved and rare is an okay approach. Still, reaching out to them makes sense but don't show them you don't value your time (and therefore, how would they value yours?). What these people want to see is value, just like women. I'm still kind to these people but I try to cut our conversations a bit shorter and not reveal anything I should only tell friends.
Again, this all has to be natural and not a forced behavior.
This is a great post for me, because sometimes I have the tendency of being too nice.
Wait, what gym is this where a dude will go get your weights for you?
Your subconscious mind plays a massive role in how you respond to things. Your body langue and actions told his subconscious mind "he is below you so treat him how you like," and he responded accordingly. You changed gears and made it clear through your actions that that is not the case.
This is why I personally am very neutral with people. I joke around with people and have a fun atmosphere at my job with my patients. I don't delve too deep into people's personal lives unless they want to, and I'll listen. I don't go out of my way for people though. I just think there is something that is a turn off about it to all people. Something naturally innate to wonder why someone is being so kind.
At my one job we had a new co-worker who I was easy on because the job caught up to him quick. He was easily overwhelmed by the paper work, and his newness was very palpable to the patients he treated. I joked around a lot with him to show him he needs to relax. He's had his step out of line moments where a solid banter retort were needed to shut him down. Nothing too vicious, just something I can use my same quick wit humor and turn it against him. We're fine and joke around. I think that is optimal with most people. I am never too nice to people unless someone is really down on their luck.
Being nice isn't the problem. It is making sure people don't assume that it is your default.
I think there's a difference between being nice to people and letting them walk all over you/being afraid to offend.
The thing is, most unnecessarily nice people tend to do both of the above.
There is a reason why Machiavelli wrote about the prince and it's principles and 48 laws of power work.
respect is earned, never given freely.
Hard for me to take redpill advice seriously from an indian dude tbh
It's okay. Sometimes some people have trouble understanding some stuff. After all, the bell curve rises only in the middle.
Can we make an Indian community for TRP?
Head on over to trp.red and make a tribe.
I don't see the point of it. TRP transcends cultures, language and countries. Everybody gets to share and learn.
I'm starting to think that frame is actually the lost meaning of सति. What happens when someones frame collapses? They withdraw from the present moment and become apprehensive.
May I ask you something irrelevant to this post. India will be a superpower in the next 20 years, do you as an Indian believe that it would be beneficial for a foreigner who speaks fluent English to learn Hindi or that would be unnecessary?
Superpower is not just being economically and militarily strong. It's also the mindset of the people. There is no harm in learning English. Anyone can learn anything. It's the colonial hangover mentality that's still much ingrained in an Indian. Children are being taught English even before they learn their own mother tongue. I also read a paper published somewhere that suggested that if you make a child learn two languages in the first two years of his life, it negatively affects the brain's development. But here, people are to keen to learn and speak the language of the colonial masters of their ancestors. South Indian states keep crying all the time that Hindi is being enforced upon them and prefer communicating in English as if English was discovered in an archaeological dig somewhere in the said states. I will take their "stop hindi imposition" rhetoric seriously once they attain the same stand against English because it was also enforced. You can not be a superpower until you learn to respect your own language and culture. There is no harm in learning English as a language (or any language for that matter) but when you see two Indians talking to each other in English; you realize that colonial hangover is still present. Sorry, rant over.
Regarding your question, learning Hindi will obviously be beneficial for anyone as it is understood almost all over the country among all the strata of society.
Thanks for your answer mate I really appreciate it.
Pleasure is all mine. If you don't mind me asking, where are you from?
Learned this through WoW. Was the nicest dude in a start up guild. Officers / Lead thought they could walk all over me when it came to loot which I had fairly won. Nope. Called those fuckers out.
Sorry dude, but fuck your class based, all about status, type of society.
All societies are class based. Whether or not people consciously accept it is up to them. But their realization does not affect the truth. It is a BAD thing, no one's denying that, and one should try and work to improve it but thinking so doesn't make it so. Your idealistic view is as real as "meant for each other / oneitis" syndrome.
True, but, ofcorse status is a thing. And unless we establish some marxist fuckery it always will be, but it's far far more extreme in india. Cast system etc.
Caste system is a kind of fucked up thing by fucked up people getting layered over thousands of years. It'll happen when your civilization is like fucking old. Some bad stuff does take its roots. What caste system initially was was really simple. Actors prefer marrying actors. A biologist prefers someone from their own or a similar field. An artist would prefer another artist.Not because they are obligated to, but they find that the other person is better suited to be able to understand each other. You can call this a "caste". That's all that it was. Overtime people begin to see it as an "obligation" or something you've GOT to do by birth. So an intellectual's son thinks he is an intellectual because he is his son. He likes to believe as such so that he can "feel" being "higher up" than others around him who may or maynot be children of intellectual themselves. Now, if you're as old a civilization like India is, that can get really nasty over time, especially when it goes through wars/invasions and greater class divide/poverty. Status, is however, unfortunately, a very human trait. The desire to feel superior to others is a major factor why many people work hard in their lives. They do it for the status their material gains can provide. It's just how it is.
But what I CAN assure you of is that no Marxist fuckery can solve this. Only thing marxism does is to fuck things up even more.
What does foinf stand for lemme guess, F*** Off Infy?
Stands for nothing really. Just random lel.