Do we have it backwards?

spaceman_spliff777 · 2019-12-04T01:09:15+00:00

My 2 cents on this is it’s absolutely not worth the risk to put in the effort to secure a woman who will inevitably become dissatisfied, no matter the outcome.

From my grandmother to my mom to my sister to her friends, I grew up watching dissatisfied women complain about men not doing enough to prove day in day out their love. As the only male in the family i was constantly reminded to “not be like these men.”

After 20 years of dating/marriage, I’ve realized women absolutely do not know what they want, and it’s exhausting. This isn’t lost on young people, as many of them are realizing there’s no point in marrying a woman who’s more makeup than personality and who will constantly be testing his commitment/desire/self worth with a “what have you done for like lately” attitude.

TLDR; OP makes some good points but ultimately it’s the genuinely shitty attitudes of today’s women that turn men away.

retal1ator · 2019-12-03T22:35:14+00:00

We seem to have accepted the premise of hypergamy, that there's a lot more demand for women than for men, and there's a bunch of loser men just running around and begging for the attention of women. Men are pathetic, they find most women attractive while women barely find any men attractive. Men need to shape up so that women find them attractive (by going to the gym, showering, not being boring, etc).

I think these concepts are valid only in a very superficial and strictly sexual dating market. When talking about over-25 people with the end goal of raising families in mind, the game is completely different and men might even get an upper hand.

Men have been disenfranchised from commitment for a long time now, and the process is accelerating. After a certain age men become more independent from sex and validation and the opposite happens for women. Society is actively pushing men over the edge and its evident in my experience that most men just don't give a fuck anymore.

I personally want children so that's why I want a woman at my side. However, many other men I know don't have that drive so they just seek short term pleasure and keep burning out women. In turn, most women have become degenerate and unmarriable anyway.

Million-Suns · 2019-12-03T20:46:22+00:00

What if it's actually men who have become less interested in women

I don't know about other men, but that's definitely my case. I'm the equivalent of an alpha widow though, and exited the game entirely for around a decade now. Also I'm childfree and think marriage is a scam, cohabitation is a hassle, all of it cementing me going MGTOW.

G77R23D · 2019-12-03T21:32:57+00:00

Yes, much of what you say is the case. Millions of men are disenfranchised and just don't launch their life because it doesn't seem worth it to them. I have a colleague who's a high performing consultant, and his son didn't launch. It's happening everywhere.

bottomLobster · 2019-12-03T20:22:30+00:00

I don't agree, I think you are confusing cause and effect. Men are getting less and less interested in women, yes, but that is simply because they cannot get any, as someone else said here few posts back - look at the situation in Japan, many men in their twenties have basically left the dating market because they could not compete with the top 20%, and the west is following the same pattern.

lonelinessmademecave · 2019-12-03T22:01:37+00:00

Nah, this premise is highly flawed. Women tend to find their perception of the top guys in a room attractive, regardless of the baseline. If you raise the baseline, you won't make anymore guys more attractive to women.

I feel like I'm """chad""" when visiting flyover shitholes or cities with gender ratios skewed in our favor, but am sharply taken back to my reality when I go back home where most guys are rich and fit, and were educated at top universities. I don't get to be a special snowflake anymore, and the effort I put into myself means way less.

It doesn't matter what guys do in isolation. It only matters what they do relative to their peers. It's about inequality, not about what men do or do not desire.

The road to beating the competition can only get so steep before anyone decides to throw in the towel. Ugly women do this too. They do it less often by virtue of male thirst.

Women are getting unhappier because their expectations for life do not fall in line with reality. You can't all lock down the top percent of dudes. You can't be obsessed with your career and also live a well balanced life. I don't begrudge women for wanting more in life than the shit tier track that was previously shoved on them. But there's a give and take, and if you just want to take without any give, you're gonna be disappointed.

Manny1400 · 2019-12-03T21:55:53+00:00

I think we need to look closer at hypergamy.

Women wanting to settle down with a man who has resources, career prospects, and/or who would make a good father is a completely understandable thing. It is the *other* side of hypergamy that is the problem--women engaging in promiscuity when they are young, seeing out those "alpha" men before settling down, and then suffering the consequences later.

So it isn't the "beta-bucks" portion of this equation that is the issue (and we know that not every provider is some beta male). It is the "alpha fucks" part.

Hypergamy of this type is fueled by modern technology and culture. Give a woman a dating app, in addition to a decent social scene, and she is like a kid in a candy store. If no one is around to criticize her behavior, or to set her straight, she is going to indulge recklessly.

Now a girl having 5-6 boyfriends / sex partners before marriage is fine, especially if those are LTRs. She is looking for Mr. Right, learning how to date and have relationships, etc. 99% of guys are not going to have any issue with a girl like that. But it isn't the norm anymore (despite the studies that say otherwise, which are incomplete, flawed, old, etc.). A decent looking girl these days has like 10-20 dudes before settling down, and a lot of those relationships are ONS, FWBs, hookups, or downright abusive stuff. There are consequences to this aside from STDs, pregnancies, etc.

I was a pretty high quality guy before marriage. Handsome, good career, good family, money, cultured, etc. Right before getting engaged to my wife, we had the "talk" about our previous relationships. When she told me she had 12-15 sex partners before me, along with some other problematic stuff, I immediately broke off the relationship (we had been dating for over a year). After a couple days I relented and we ultimately married--but it was close.

Quality guys don't want leftovers, or to feel like that is what we are getting. We don't want women with "reputations", and we want girls we can trust and admire. I know several women in their 30s who partied hard in their 20s, and now they are unwanted, or in crappy dead-end relationships with bottom-of-the-barrel guys.

But it is true that a lot of guys simply don't care and can't be bothered. A lot of low-quality men out there for sure. Those guys skew the results to 80/20 in the sense that you can't play if you don't show up

Snowboard18 · 2019-12-03T23:23:46+00:00

Don’t really agree, every man I know wants a girlfriend or at least a fwb. They simply can’t get any because women have an overly raised ego due to constant attention on social media.

calamis1 · 2019-12-03T20:24:24+00:00

Hard to believe because if a woman actually does pursue men she'll find plenty of success.

It's more likely that it's a combination of factors, like financial instability affecting men usually until their late 20's, women disinterested in LTR's until much later in life, women being told that men are their enemies and are trying to oppress them at every corner, less social contact due to the internet, dating being more impersonal due to OLD, etc.

insertcredit2 · 2019-12-04T10:17:49+00:00

I've read quite a bit about the incels in japan and this has a lot of truth to it. There's a bunch of little things that add up to men just giving up on dating and women.

There are career/money issues E.G. a lack of job security, lack of housing that suitable for having a family, difficulty supporting a family on a single wage & any job that would support a family on a single wage demands you work 12 hour days 6 days a week. This is combined with a declining economy where the young have watched their father slave away to support them and knowing that even if they work hard they'd struggle to manage to achieve that level of work life balance.

The women don't have time for relationships as they work long hours so they are either fucking chads or trying to marry the guys who work them 12 hour days.

There's also infinite distraction. Why go out and get rejected all night when you can play videogames online, do social things, travel has become cheap and accessible, massive expanding entertainment industries etc.

I think people used to be bored a lot of the time so they're go find a girlfriend as fucking was something to do. Now we have loads of things to do, less money, less time and getting a girlfriend has become a lot more difficult. The difficulty vs reward slider is totally fucked.

LotBuilder · 2019-12-03T20:56:33+00:00

I’m generally harsh towards women but let’s also be realistic about the current crop of 18-35 yo men.

I am not entirely convinced the younger generation of guys have a super high sex drive. Natural Testosterone rates have decreased by 1/3rd in 20 years. Obesity rates have increased. Hobbies like video games, smoking weed and porn drain sexual energy. I have a friend that teaches PE and coaches HS sports and be said there is a stark difference in the past 20 years. 20 years ago he said about 20% of his class couldn’t do a single pull-up. 10/50 boys. In 2019 it is flipped and only about 20% of his class (10/50) can do two or more pull-ups. He said his elite athletes are bigger, stronger and faster than ever before due to advanced training and nutrition but the average kids is way slower, fatter and weaker than 20 years ago.

As a guy exposed to RP we know that the only way to be sexually attractive to women is to be sexually attractive to women. We also know what is sexually attractive to women. 2 + 2 = 4. If you want women to find you sexually attractive then you need to be fit and high status. Then do a little research and learn what they like in bed. That will vary a little from girl to girl but overall they like a guy that takes charge and devours them in a way that they don’t feel self conscious.

Complaining about women isn’t going to change what they like just like fat chicks talking about body positivity isn’t going to make more men like fat girls. Your options are to turn yourself into what they want or just pay for it.

WIA20XX · 2019-12-03T20:25:47+00:00

That's not a bad argument in my view.

Economic depression, video games, porn, ubiquitous internet access, pleasurable food and drug abundance and an ongoing trend of social atomization could very well explain the male millennial and zoomer generation not wanting to do the "work" necessary.

Tyler Cohen, noted economist, predicted the overall decrease in the price of dating.

Free apps to improve appearance. Both sides.

Easily faked luxury lifestyle, necessary for girls that require proof.

Algorithm hacks.

Swipe to meet.

Uber to the home.

Netflix, often a shared password.
Seamless for food.

Overall decrease in time, money, and effort spent.

Why bother with anything more?

The man's only real burden is getting good pics

jayval90 · 2019-12-03T20:36:03+00:00

MattyAnon, a senior endorsed contributor at TRP, has been saying "this is the golden age for the alpha male" for a long time now.

I mean.....how would it be possible to spin plates if your ideas here aren't essentially correct?

What you are missing, I think, is that women's success in the workforce has freed them up to choose lovers based on desire rather than utility.

diffdedbed · 2019-12-03T20:17:00+00:00

I like the cut of your jib here.

I think the decades long attack on men by the media, both subtle and overt, as well as a school system which is more and more unsuitable for male learning has led a number of men, especially on the margins to give up.

Reading /r/menslib gives you a perspective on some men who feel so unworthy of women that they would forgo them all together.

Workaholiconew · 2019-12-03T22:18:59+00:00

Here is an idea:

It is both.

When a market becomes harder, both happen, The weakest part (seller or buyer) leaves while the opposite part (seller or buyer) become more restrictive of trade.

It is just normal market behavior.

the-red_woman · 2019-12-03T20:21:05+00:00

What if it's actually men who have become less interested in women, and that has actually been the driving force behind the collapse of the dating market?

I think you’re onto something but you missed the elephant in the room: porn. Perhaps men have become less interested in women because they are being saturated with soft core porn on social media and are viewing hardcore porn several times per week to several times per day.

What’s their motivation then to risk rejection when approaching real life women? Their laptops are easier, faster and almost as satisfying.

jayval90 · 2019-12-03T21:40:54+00:00

Ah well in that case, I think guys are def less interested in LTR than females. It's such a risk for you guys and it seems pretty easy to avoid these days. All my female friends are looking for their SO. All my guy friends are playing video games.

catbrainland · 2019-12-03T21:58:48+00:00

Women don't find men attractive because men can't be bothered to make themselves attractive.

I largely agree with this, but disagree as this being a valid argument, because the gender difference seems to be much more general than that. Women care what others think about em, ie place value on social validation. Cue being addicted to likes on social networks and gossip. While men care much less so about this. Their validation is internally sourced instead. In short, if a man slays pussy, he's not "validated" by these women, he's simply doing it for his own ego as he never cared about opinion of those women to begin with.

This "IDGAF discrepancy" is what drives the difference in "tryhardness".

rhyth7 · 2019-12-04T03:40:58+00:00

I think men are happy enough with porn, video games, and beer. Happy enough to not really care about anything else.

jayval90 · 2019-12-03T21:11:46+00:00

Bro if I step outside and snap my fingers, I get laid. If my husband steps outside and snaps his fingers girls yell at him and call him all sorts of weird names. We're both smart and fit too. Honestly just look at our DMs. Guys be filling mine up. Girls be blocking my man just for liking too many pics. (Not really, but you get the point.) However, I do believe girls are being told they're way more desirable than they actually are.

wtknight · 2019-12-03T23:38:16+00:00

What if it's actually men who have become less interested in women, and that has actually been the driving force behind the collapse of the dating market?

Definitely, although many men just don't like women and femininity in general and have never liked them. If it's easy for a man to attract women, like Chad, then it's not much additional effort to attract women. But if it's difficult for a man, like the average man, then he's just going to play video games or watch online porn or come on the internet and complain rather than seriously attempt to attract women.

drsherbert · 2019-12-04T01:03:58+00:00

Not sure this is entirely factual, but there’s some validity here. Especially with the MGTOWs. Most of them are probably at least average men. They just don’t wanna pay for a girlfriend. They’d rather spend the money on themselves. I realize girlfriends are expensive and annoying, but I’m willing to pay because I don’t like being alone. I’m also above average in looks and wealth, but I have no status and shitty social skills with women, but not with men. I also like sweet, naive, feminine females and they’re slim pickings where I live. They’re all either blue haired batshit lib bitches, ghetto thots or demanding, neurotic tryhards.

AnotherWildling · 2019-12-03T23:15:44+00:00

Seems a lot of men replying that women are too picky while at the same time admitting to not put in any effort... so women are not worth the effort and you’ wondering why they don’t pick you?

It was better before, when women didn’t have a choice. When they had to do all the housework and wait for a suitable husband to court her.

Sounds like a lot of fun for us! Yey!

Zippo-Cat · 2019-12-04T06:37:32+00:00

This is just MGTOW "You can't fire me, I quit" nonsense.

Evening-Bee · 2019-12-07T03:03:30+00:00

men ... just never bothered to make the effort: but it isn't as simple as that. Effort .. how? doing what? If we assume we know what it is to do, can you actually do it? If we assume you can, what is the pay-off? And it is guaranteed with 100% certainty, at a certain time? The world is not a sex vending machine: you could put in just as much "effort" as the next guy and get nothing. You could explain-away failure by claiming that the person didn't do any number of absurd things.

Men can't even be bothered to be chivalrous anymore, which might just be because they don't think women are worth it

... because when they do that to get sex they're called a "nice guy."

Women are extreme tryhards: you're ignoring women competing with each other for status.

Sex sex SEX Men are obviously sex-crazed compared to women: you should listen to the This American Life episode on testosterone.

The rest just isn't worth mentioning.

i_cri_evry_tim · 2019-12-03T22:35:08+00:00

Lmao.

“You only divorce if you wanna remarry again, otherwise you would simply leave”

What, without the paycheck??

Apart from the sheer hilarity of that statement alone, the are multiple contradictions within your own reasoning.

But yeah. Men’s fault. Why the hell not.

Blightning421 · 2019-12-03T22:38:54+00:00

Another blame men post

The lack of self awareness is astounding

Galliend · 2019-12-03T20:34:38+00:00

Do you have any point that is beyond 'man bad woman good'?

pritejieken · 2019-12-04T04:51:13+00:00

Jordan Peterson made a comment repeatedly on this in his lectures about how women on average have 1 kid each while half the men have 2 kids and half the men don't (across history, roughly speaking). So like, having the Y chromosome is the high risk high reward in sexual reproduction

sadomasochrist · 2019-12-03T20:59:00+00:00

This is one of the worst threads I've ever seen posted. You're going to write this post knowing that a 5 will get 50 messages a day in OLD?

At best all this rant could framed as men who women want, no longer will put up with their bullshit and\or have other options (pumping and dumping on Tinder).

But mathematically it all comes back to women find 5-20% of men attractive. So at least 80% of men, are settled for at best. This is biological reality, construct what you want on top of that.

I gotta be honest, the amount of mental gymnastics in this thread is scary.

NomoreMrNiceGui · 2019-12-04T00:36:38+00:00

Why don’t people in this subreddit upvote?!?!?

DavidHill76 · 2019-12-04T03:25:18+00:00

!remindme 1 day

I'm at work, want to add my personal anecdote

are_u_serious4574 · 2019-12-04T03:40:11+00:00

I was watching TV while reading this so if this has been addressed I apologize. How about the men that are less than average and when you're being kind and give the smallest of compliments they suddenly become The Hulk, rip out of there "plain" selves and instantly become Sex Gods, turn everything sexual or sexual overtones when in reality they are not even close. That then presents the dilemma of do you break the truth to them gently, ghost them or allow them to continue to dilute themselves? Experiencing this current and insight would be helpful. Again I apologize if this topic has already been listed and I am repeating a very well thought out and well written post!!

stonedkyuby · 2019-12-04T07:45:59+00:00

The reason women generally look better and insist on improving their appearance is because women have a sense of self image and see actual value in being attractive on its own merits, a concept you readily reject despite it being the answer to your query about why.

AggravatingTartlet · 2019-12-04T08:16:59+00:00

Sex sex SEX Men are obviously sex-crazed compared to women. Men have been bombarded with sexual messaging from an extremely young age. If they were little girls, we'd be having national conferences on the "systemic sexual abuse" that our young men go through with modern media and culture. And then the gaslighting that says it's only his problem when he expresses the fact that yes, he feels things when she exposes skin, would be demonized as *splaining emotions, belittling, mental abuse, etc. So of course you're going to raise a bunch of sex-crazed males in such a sexually-charged environment.

Men have been like this for thousands of years. It's matter of feeling in control and entitlement.

Men have raped and coerced and felt entitled to sex, forever.

2019-12-04T08:57:46+00:00

I don't think this a particularly novel theory, though it is good fodder for discussion. I think we must also look at how twisted and generally gynocentric our family court system has become and remains, where the only people who win are the lawyers and judges it often seems, and many guys with and without kids get screwed in terms of parenting time, child support, alimony, etc.

People who go through this meat grinder spread the word. Kids grow up with mom/dad/siblings/step-parents going through this see the damage it causes. It can of course be incredibly important and useful, but it tends to leave many scarred. Remarriage is less attractive for many men.

SOwED · 2019-12-04T09:56:04+00:00

I always appreciate fundamental questioning in an environment like this where we take certain things for granted.

However, I feel that you bounced these ideas off of your own mind a few too many times and convinced yourself of something which doesn't make any sense.

For example...(emphasis mine)

Divorce rates rose precipitously, and women are most often the initiators of the divorce. Men stopped putting effort into their relationship. You only divorce if you think you want to get remarried again, otherwise you'd just leave. So only women are actually believing that they can do better, while men just stopped caring.

What does this even mean? You only divorce if you want to get remarried, otherwise you just leave? I mean, there are shared assets and shit to think about, not just the ability to get legally married to a future partner. Just makes no sense.

Marriage rates have been dropping. It's mostly men who initiate engagements, so it stands to reason that the reason marriage rates have been dropping is because men have been desiring marriage less.

I don't know if you meant this to be a subpoint to your divorce rates point, but they are separate things. Yes, men mostly initiate engagements, but now more than ever, the notion of marriage is discussed openly and even agreed upon before any proposal is made, and that is a social advancement for women. Marriage rates dropping and divorce rates increasing may have a causal relationship, but if there is one there, I'd expect it is that marriage rates are dropping in part due to divorce rates increasing, not the other way around.

I'm not going to go through and refute every point of yours because fundamentally what refutes all of them is that you seem to not understand what feminism did for women socially. It gave them power they didn't used to have, and the change came quite rapidly, only over the course of about a century (women got the vote in the US just under 100 years ago for starters).

Any argument about porn seems to fall flat when you examine what is most despised about incels, about fuccbois, etc. Incels are clearly angry and they wouldn't be angry if porn was satisfying their sexual needs. Fuccbois are often described as wanting a girl to act more as a mother than as a partner, and porn sure as hell doesn't provide any kind of emotional support much less emotional coddling.

jayval90 · 2019-12-04T14:30:22+00:00

No the thirst is real.

jayval90 · 2019-12-04T18:51:21+00:00

My few cents on divorce: Divorce saw an explosion in past decades simply because women were legally allowed to work and be more independent. Before, women absolutely had to marry or else they were thought of as disturbed or suspected of being lesbian. The same treatment was not given to men who decided to remain bachelor's. I know plenty of couples who married in the 50s/60s who then divorced in their elderly age (instigated by the woman of course), because they got married under bad circumstances. And then there's the fact that we're living longer.

are_u_serious4574 · 2019-12-04T19:07:50+00:00

From a womans point of view. I find a great conversation,, an interesting and intelligent conversation is far more likely to go home with me or given a second chance. Stimulate my mind and not your hormones. Im not really sure if anyone had the same response because I just commented before I read anything in the comments. But Im very sure there are other women like me who think and feel the same. A guy just trying to get in my pants by bragging about his dick size or how much he can bench press at the gym, turns me off and I focus on others who have more to offer. Looks and dick size doesnt sway my decision to keep interacting and waste my time. Brains and a sense of humor go 20x further than dicks. Just MHO!! Feel free to pick this apart in disagreement or completely all my typos as I preach about intelligence lol. Its how I AM and thats what counts the most at the end of the day

are_u_serious4574 · 2019-12-05T19:32:43+00:00

Well I did say that theres a chance of coming home with me. So noncommittal sex is possible. I do realize most guys are going to offer totally intelligent conversation I dont necessarily rule out fuckbois as you put it. Girls get horny too and can settle wiyh a one night stand. Then there are always the friends with benefits. Chances are you're not always get intellingent conversations there either. My response was mainly stating that that would be my ideal man or commitment. I have and would lower my standards if they can offer more than one word answers and is not obsessed with their dick size or physique. Or the drunken ass who is so wasted that there is no chance of getting laid with me.

fuzzy5067 · 2019-12-06T18:46:42+00:00

You have it backwards. Men are men not women. Modern ladies seem to want your men more like women i.e. Metrosexuals. Sorry but Metrosexuals are gay or bi not heterosexual males. If our manliness isn't appealing to you go full lesbian because a "real man" isn't going to change everything about himself to be more woman-like. Ladies also screwed up the whole dating scene in other ways. Guys are scared to flirt with you for fear of a sexual harassment charge. Oh if a guy looks like Brad Pitt, you're happy when they hit on you, right? What do you say when the guy trying to pick up on you is average or even goofy looking? You say they're creepy, right? Those are the guys who most often catch legal issues. The problem as I see it is too many women aren't looking for an equal partner. They want complete control. Millenials are the worst. It's a whole generation of demasculated girly men with man buns and female control freaks who complain when the girly men they helped create aren't manly enough. In short ladies, you did this crap to yourselves.

AnotherWildling · 2019-12-03T23:00:38+00:00

Purely anecdotal but just discussed with my husband if he’d ever had sex with an ugly woman, because he liked her personality. He said no, never, all the ones he’d had sex with were beautiful. Me, being a super attractive woman (well, at least when I was on the dating scene), I have. On several occasions. Two very overweight guys and one both overweight and crooked teeth and nothing else that made up for it in the looks department. I just really liked them. Two of them were longish relationships. I know this is just an experiment of two, one woman, one man. But it got me interested and I’ll ask around more :)

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Title	Do we have it backwards?
Author	jayval90
Upvotes	103
Comments	430
Date	December 3, 2019 8:04 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/e5mqec/do_we_have_it_backwards/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/do-we-have-it-backwards.297671 https://theredarchive.com/post/297671