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[–]MikeKolas11 points12 points13 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Hey man....another dude here (and ex-red piller). I have thought about the same qn and I break it down to two points:
Point #1: The way our fantasies work are really weird. Since no one can peek into our mind, we tend to imagine the most taboo/weird stuff and often times imagining the opposite gives us some relief. A guy who is in a position of authority might get arousal imagining getting spanked by a dominatrix. A woman who is in a secure and stable relationship might fantasize about being in a situation where she loses all her sense of security and is at the mercy of a powerful man (who uses her in all possible manner). What I am saying is that this dichotomy between stated need and fantasy is there for both men AND women. If you look into my past posting, you'd find that I have fantasy of sharing my wife with another man ... even though I really dont want that to happen. I want complete fidelity from my wife...but my fantasy is just the opposite.
Point #2: Some of us are immature. Or rather let me put it this way - some of us are immature all the time, and all of us are immature at some time. Notice - I said "us" - which includes both men and women. If I ask you what your ideal gf/partner should be - you will paint a picture based on a fantasy - that she be great in bed, nice ass, nice tits, smart. But unless you are a 10/10, you know that you will not get that. You will have to compromise on one area or the other. Also, your choice is limited to women that you come across in real life or dating site. You make a choice based on the available pool and once a personal chemistry develops you'd find that all the criteria that you had initially built goes away. I had my criteria too - about what i wanted in my woman....but I met a girl who almost had none of that, but we had a great time together...we could talk for hours and not get bored. Something similar happens to women. If you ask a single girl what she wants in a guy, her laundry list will reek of hypergamy. But eventually when she picks a guy for a stable relationship it is often not fully connected to her original list.
Having said that - there is small % of women who are indeed like the portrait developed by red-pillers (hypergamist) Conversely there is an equal small % of men who are complete morons (polygamist)
Interestingly, while the red-pillers rile against the hypergamist women, they almost adore the polygamist men. They say that hypergamy by women is the reason western civilization is on decline. However it is both - hypergamy by few women AND polygamy by few men - that is responsible for the dating/courtship mess. How the red-pillers address this problem is by really really eff-ed up. They advocate that men should become alpha - that is - hit the gym, play the women, treat them as "plates" and become a polygamist. So you solve a problem by making the problem worse...??? And that is supposed to make them more manly??? WTF!!!
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That was an excellent reply. I completely agree with the fantasy part. We all think of scenarios we would never do, like beating up the bully, or imagining what life is if our parents died in a freak accident.
Of course none of us wants that, but as humans we are naturally curious. Again, thank you for your insight.
[–]Twinkli9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Many books have been best seller. Most are being bought because of reviews and curiosity, exactly about wanting to see what they hype is about. The Hunger Games is a best seller too, does not mean the readers all want to be Katniss.
It is less about wanting an Alpha, rather than wanting a partner that is self-assured, confident, independent and can validate his/her own existence without the need of being in a relationship or validation from opposite sex, from parents, from his/her buddies, from bosses, etc.
If there is anything, anything at all from TRP you should bring home is self-improvement to raise your quality of life and your own happiness, for yourself and not for anyone else. Although to understand something like that, one does not need to visit TRP.
[–]BlueBoiledPotato5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
then why did 50 shades become a best seller?
I was working in a bookshop when the book came out and I was asked to pretty much place it in our most visible spot and there were a buttload of copies. I didn't know why, I was always informed about the books that were supposed to be heavily marketed but this one took me by surprise. I asked some friends and at the time none of them had any idea what that book was about.
I believe the book was successful because it was pretty much pushed into people's faces not because women specifically have interest towards that type of theme.
Most of the girls in my social circle that read the book either stopped during or after the first one and never read anything similar again. So based on my own experience I'd say that the book's success was caused by the good marketing.
Just like teen dystopian books (and movies) received quite the attention a few years ago (Hunger games, Maze Runner, Divergent) so did 50sog type erotic books.
[–]Fuzzypeachbutts3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I read a little bit of it because I was curious, but its pretty bad. It's probably because of curiosity and the want to read something "naughty", butnI only know a couple of women who actually enjoyed it. But it's too black and white to think "Women who want to be dominated want an alpha male,"
I like guys who are confident but not controlling. I argue if I want but I don't want someone who just sits there like a doormat and refuses to form opinions. I also like someone who can be both dominant and submissive to me, but I personally tend to be the more dominant. People's wants are nuanced.
[–]Lilly0772 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I had a coworker who was a bit of a conspiracy theorist, and she told me that BDSM is going to get some kind of a marketing push in order to make it seem like the regular sexuality. I have no idea where she got that, lol.
Other than that, I think that people will have fantasies about the forbidden fruit. I think books like that are way more likely to be popular in an overly feminist environment, simply because such relationship is a taboo. I also have a hypothesis that cuck porn is more popular in the red pill crowd than it is with average men. Even though no guy would like to see his wife with another guy, red pill circles are making a super big taboo out of it, the one that you need to be constantly reminded of and told how bad it is. Another thing they might secretly enjoy is fat women porn. Not all these guys of course, I just think it's more popular in red pill circles than it is in the general population.
Now, I haven't read 50 shades of grey but I've seen the movie (which would be a shame if I said this for a masterpiece, not so much for something that looks more like a soap opera) - and it seems to play into a female fantasy of "taming" or "converting" a tough guy - which I think is what most female fantasies about tough guys come down to. He is supposed to be some kind of a dangerous man, but he has sex with her gently in missionary position, lol.
As for alfa vs. beta - the issue is that "alfa vs. beta" contrast implies you're either a friendzoned nice guy who never gets sex, love or respect, or you're a misogynist who doesn't have a tiniest bit of regard for a woman. As with many things about the red pill philosophy, it takes an extreme example of reality and presents is as a rule that defines the entire reality. Women do love some supposed alfa qualities. Self-confidence and assertiveness are very desirable in a man. All the self proclaimed "nice guys" lack these qualities most of the times, and in red pill they get them (or at least they get some kind of a substitute for them) through misogyny. The red pill is right when it tells young men that they shouldn't fear girls, they shouldn't feel as if they're inferior when interacting with girls, put girls on a pedestal, etc... And yes, that is definitely what girls love. That is the only thing that girls like about "assholes". Have you ever met a genuinely bad guy, a total asshole, who, for one reason or another, was not very self-confident around girls? I have, and let me tell you, they sure as hell were not "spinning plates". Their nastiness with women just came off as super creepy. On the other hand, haven't you met men who are genuinely good people, and also good partners in a relationship (no lies, no cheating, no manipulation) - but also very self-confident with girls (doesn't hurt if they're handsome too, lol). These guys have no issues with approaching a girl, going on dates, having relationships etc.
So, that is the way in which the red pill is right about the alpha male. Many women do love some aspects of what the red pill calls "alpha", self-confidence and assertiveness mainly.
[–]alcockell0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
50SOG is basically the old potboiler plot turned up to 11. And when eve Jilly Cooper complained about the sleeve art on her novel Riders being toned down...
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So a female writer did a really good take on the appeal of 50 Shades despite its glaring contradiction to the #MeToo movement.
Here is an enlightening excerpt from the article:
Take Christian: He isn't just gorgeous and rich, he's also well-groomed and well-dressed. In a culture that's decided a) that women aren't worth turning on visually and b) that men prove their heterosexuality by not caring about how they look, that's pretty novel. Then there's the fact that he plans. He plans erotic scenes and fancy dates and takes care of all the details and logistics. The viral success of this GQ article advising men that the best Valentine's Day gift is to "make a plan" suggests this might be appealing to women who are simply exhausted of doing all the planning. Then there's the fact that Christian actually spends a lot of his time in the book attending carefully to Ana. He's an able and dedicated reader of her emotions and moods and a consummate (and deeply appreciative) reader of her body. That matters for reasons having to do with both pleasure and pain. The pleasure angle is simple: Rather than focusing grimly on her genitals, Christian's "kink" in practice means that he dedicates a lot of erotic attention to the rest of Ana's body. The pain side is more complex: One of the more curious features of sexual pain is how lonely it is. There's a very particular sadness to watching a partner (especially one you love, like a husband, who ostensibly cares about you) take pleasure in your body while you're in agony. Particularly when he knows you're in pain and continues anyway. Even if you've consented. Fifty Shades offers an appealing alternative: If pain is going to be an aspect of your sexual experience anyway, here's someone who a) perfectly reads your body's pain and pleasure signals b) understands exactly how physical sensations connect to emotion and c) knows how to translate pain into pleasure. A lot of people might give away a lot of control to feel that understood — to have their pain witnessed, made meaningful, and incorporated into the pleasure they've been told they should be feeling.
Take Christian: He isn't just gorgeous and rich, he's also well-groomed and well-dressed. In a culture that's decided a) that women aren't worth turning on visually and b) that men prove their heterosexuality by not caring about how they look, that's pretty novel.
Then there's the fact that he plans. He plans erotic scenes and fancy dates and takes care of all the details and logistics. The viral success of this GQ article advising men that the best Valentine's Day gift is to "make a plan" suggests this might be appealing to women who are simply exhausted of doing all the planning.
Then there's the fact that Christian actually spends a lot of his time in the book attending carefully to Ana. He's an able and dedicated reader of her emotions and moods and a consummate (and deeply appreciative) reader of her body. That matters for reasons having to do with both pleasure and pain. The pleasure angle is simple: Rather than focusing grimly on her genitals, Christian's "kink" in practice means that he dedicates a lot of erotic attention to the rest of Ana's body.
The pain side is more complex: One of the more curious features of sexual pain is how lonely it is. There's a very particular sadness to watching a partner (especially one you love, like a husband, who ostensibly cares about you) take pleasure in your body while you're in agony. Particularly when he knows you're in pain and continues anyway. Even if you've consented.
Fifty Shades offers an appealing alternative: If pain is going to be an aspect of your sexual experience anyway, here's someone who a) perfectly reads your body's pain and pleasure signals b) understands exactly how physical sensations connect to emotion and c) knows how to translate pain into pleasure. A lot of people might give away a lot of control to feel that understood — to have their pain witnessed, made meaningful, and incorporated into the pleasure they've been told they should be feeling.
It's well worth the read and really goes through why the book has such an appeal to women, in particular Christian women.
[–]peeingclitoris2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Harry Potter is a bestselling series because everyone wants to be magical, but most people would run screaming if they were in Harry's position.
[–]ifeltbitchy1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
What really bothers me is that 50 Shades of Gray is nothing like an actual BDSM relationship. People actually into BDSM are all about consent and safe-words. They even have a catch phrase for it: safe, sane, consensual.
The subs in those relationships are consenting to being dominated.
The fantasy is often that you are being dominated without your permission. The reality is that both sides consent to playing their role for mutual pleasure.
Not my cup of tea, personally. I never could get through 50 Shades because it reads like bad fan fiction (mostly because it IS bad fan fiction. Twilight fanfiction).
If you want to read a really sexy series, read the 'Beauty' series my Anne Rice. She originally wrote it under a pseudonym.
Do most women really want to be kidnapped and made a slave in a society with really kinky and open sexual practices? Not really, but what's wrong with having a little fun thinking about it?
Normal people can separate reality from fantasy and still enjoy both.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Thank you. I'm so angry at this.
safe, sane, consensual <- This.
[–]Hottosmart0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Woman answering here.
A few of my female friends raved about this book. I am not usually into this stuff but I thought, why not.
So, I picked up the book. Didn't even get half way through it. Hated it. I hate this type of dominant-submissive dynamic, especially in sex, and especially the way it was portrayed in the book, and movie.
A lot of women, though, are attracted to this stuff and I suspect would want a partner as such.
Plus, the guy was filthy rich and ridiculously handsome. That's a big draw to it. But hey, wouldn't you be attracted to a Megan Fox?
I suppose if your girl was into this book, you could try this stuff. Up to you. I hate it on my end.
One thing I hated about TRP is how it is so fixated on women this, women that. Let's take 50 shades. It's counterpart for men is a Dominatrix woman. A lot of men get off on being dominated by women. Ever heard of pay pigs?
Men and women are not that different in their psychology.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There's the female redpiller to.
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[–]MikeKolas11 points12 points13 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Twinkli9 points10 points11 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]BlueBoiledPotato5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Fuzzypeachbutts3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Lilly0772 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]alcockell0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]peeingclitoris2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]ifeltbitchy1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Hottosmart0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link