Before I begin, a little disclaimer: I'm just a young dumb cis shitlord MD who will be staff before 28 so take whatever I say here with a grain of salt.
It seems that any discussion about the divorce risk, emotional problems, or other "soft" social markers surrounding the debate about women who CC-rode in their 20s seems to devolve into accusations of insecurity, immaturity, misogyny, Other Standardized Buzzword to Enforce PC Thinking(tm). Nauseating counter quotes include inanities such as "Past is past!", "She chose you now, what does it matter who she fucked before?", "Stop being so insecure!", "It only matters in so far as sexual health is concerned, otherwise I don't give a shit".
Ok, fair enough. I can understand, from a purely rational standpoint, why gold digging CC riders and their cheerleaders have such a vested interest in preventing an epidemic of slut-averse beta bucks from occurring, for obvious reasons. God forbid those betas get standards and disqualify them from the gold rush, because that would totally suck for them.
But if you're a patient telling me that partner count or sexual practices doesn't matter when you're in my office asking about your vaginal discharge or swollen, painful labia, you get labelled Big Fucking Idiot in my head, and I thank you, because I look forward to seeing you again for another future 5 minute visit in a couple months that will net me another 60 bucks. Tack on another 20 for a sick note.
Let's get specific. Just what are some of the lovely medical sequelae that present CC riders are at increased risk for?
Gonorrhea is the second most common disease (never mind STI) in the US; the highest incidence is in the sexually active female population 15-19, the second highest is males 20-24, but here's the kicker - the female rate is underestimated because infection is often asymptomatic in women. Risk factors? Multiple sexual partners, previous infection, being unmarried. Again, just a Dumb Cis Shitlord, just spouting agenda, not facts, oh wait - this was from the CDC and the American Journal of Epidemiology. But so what? What if I'm asymptomatic! Except gonorrhea can lead to, and accounts for, up to 40% of pelvic inflammatory disease, which is an upper genital tract infection that can cause chronic pelvic pain, infertility, or in severe cases, life threatening abdominal sepsis. Hur dur, we has antibiotics now, we is good to keep on slutting! Ok, fair enough, 90% of cases can resolve with first or second line agents, but past behaviour predicts future behaviour, and I've already had more than one tearful counselling session with an unfortunate who is now infertile "I never thought this would happen to MEEE!!". Repeat customer, beat it each time, until Mother Complications decided to show up and exert her dominance. But but but condoms! Routine barrier contraceptive use reduces gonorrhea transmission rate by up to 50%, not 100%. And yet an early 2000s CDC survey showed only 30% of early 20s women reported regular condom use. Oh well, there's always cats!
HPV-related oropharyngeal cancer - AKA human papilloma virus, sub type 16 to be specific. Most common STI worldwide, infection spreads shortly after onset of sexual activity. In decades past the primary domain of smokers, but now thought to account for up to 50-80% of North American oropharynx cancers. Risk factors: early age of sexual activity onset, multiple partners. In graphic terms, if you had a choice between eating out a former slut wife vs. a low count/virgin and chose the former, you are literally at higher risk for throat and mouth cancer. Sure, you will probably beat the odds, unless you're one of the unlucky ones that ends up losing part of his tongue and a radiated wooden neck. Double sucks if you get divorced too.
Herpes - an incurable, but non-fatal viral infection that causes intermittent painful open sores on genitalia. Same family as cold sore virus. Traditionally, your oral herpes are caused by HSV 1, genital herpes by HSV2. With the prevalence of oral sex, you are finding both subtypes on both areas. Still transmissible even if partner is not symptomatic with active sores. HSV 2 generally causes worse symptoms, so woe to you if you get it on your mouth from your dear "past doesn't matter" Special Snowflake. Bonus points if you somehow get it in your eye.
I haven't even begun to scratch the surface of why it's objectively, from a strictly medical and health standpoint, a worse decision to wife up or make a former slut your new monogamous partner. Cervical cancer risk, chlamydia, prolapse, rectovaginal fistulas (essentially, you go number 2 out the vagina), ectopic pregnancy risk, salpingitis, etc etc.
Student health clinics are a gong-show. I get students coming in treating "the clap" like a joke, like it's just a routine cold you're supposed to get like clockwork per year. I love prenatal visits where the husband comes in with the wife, I ask the mom about previous STIs or sexual history, she denies, and at future visits she spills the beans when alone. I actually had one obese diabetic who has poor insulin compliance because, I shit you not, it's a form of fat shaming. Well, if preventing blindness, rotting feet, and kidney failure is fat shaming, call me Dr. Fat-Hating Shitlord. Every week brings at least one Maury-like moment, and it's hilarious. Telling a hysterical patient in ER matter-of-factly and stone faced that she has genital herpes, while watching her faithful boyfriend's expression slowly change as I discuss the possible transmission routes makes the hours worth it.
The best part is getting paid well to get a front row seat to this daily dose of human stupidity. So, buy into the flow of PC bullshit about not being a judgey douche if you want, but don't worry, I'll be there with some antibiotics and antidepressants when it all goes to shit. Just pray the bacteria doesn't become resistant before you've had your fun.
Fuck I love my job.
Everyone knows the past matters. Especially women. This is why they go into hyperdrive when it's even hinted at.
Perfect instance of what Paul Graham describes in "What You Can't Say": things that are taboo and, furthermore, could be/are legitimately true, are the things you "can't say".
That advice and the article applies to everything discussed here.
Wanna hear something funny?
I never ask about my gf's past. Never. When she brings it up, I change topics.
She's literally begging to tell me her past now and every now and then does so to see if there's a reaction. There isn't. The information is noted and processed, but to her it's like I'm not even listening. Drives her wild.
Told me way more this way than she ever would have if I had asked.
Reverse psychology works wonders when used correctly.
This is for promiscuous women, what about heterosexual men? How strong is the tradeoff from a medical standpoint?
Obviously, it's higher, but the risk doesn't rise as dramatically with each new instance because we're not being penetrated.
That said, I'm way above the median partner count and I'm clean as a whistle. Fuck you, science.
You're playing with fire son! Make sure you rubber-up on the next one just to be safe.
I might be done with that game now.
You see the past is the past; I'm a different man now!
He's probably clean because he makes sure to wrap it before wrecking it.
What's considered the median?
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Really? Twelve? as in lifetime? Man I'm 30 and already ahead. Nice! I know guys who are close to 200 but he's an HPV carrier. Figures. Fuck hood rats => get hood rat diseases. Lol
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Like you hinted at, I bet the std. dev is pretty high since there's so many lifetime virgins/1-or-2-timers; can't imagine limiting my sexual experiences to 12 individuals, that's just sad...
A Britain study (can't find link) found that men had like 10x the st. dev. of women.
Wifing up chicks too early. My number was 12 when I met my wife. A little higher now.
from a brief google search, one thing reported 7 (unsure if lifetime or not) and another reported 12 (lifetime)
This will be a much better representation of the average, since the mean will likely be skewed by some men having hundreds of partners
Are you serious?
If you are serious, the median is the middle number in a set or sample. It is often much more useful than the mean/average, which can be biased by outliers.
For example lets say you surveyed 9 people about their partner count - 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 60, 100.
the "average" partner count for these people is 19 partners, but the median is 3. As you can see the median is much more representative of the sample.
He didn't ask for the meaning of the word median, he asked for THE median (of partner count).
Funny how you insult him, yet can't interpret a normal English sentence.
Excellent explanation otherwise, but get off your high horse.
people tend to mistake median from mode
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Except that you could (and probably do) have asymptomatic herpes.
No one cares about your vagina. 30 day ban.
I was in the partner count doesn't matter camp. LTR with a partner with over 30 partners. I had 2 before her. First unprotected sex partner. Boom soon after we begin dating she tests positive for HPV. We are older than Gardasil and it was one of the potential cancer causing ones for women. Years later I developed warts on the hands, big nasty ones that kept coming, and took a lot of nitrogen spray from the Dr. and dry ice applied by myself to finally resolve. Then came the genital warts. I was dry icing the base of my shaft. Then anal warts. The Dr. recommended I hold out and hope they go away on their own.
I did finally become immune to developing warts less than a year after the genital warts began. She's had several precancer scares at the Dr., and we're talking a decade after the time when she became infected. Promiscuity is hazardous to your health, but being a desperate nerd and going for an easy promiscuous girl to get laid is hazardous too.
Bonus: She didn't learn from contracting an STD not to have unprotected sex. Years into our relationship she cheated on me and had an unprotected threesome with a couple, and sex one on one with the man on one or more occasions. I was still having unprotected sex with her all throughout. I flipped my shit when I found out but went to counseling instead of breaking up, for another year. She actually held it against me for flipping out on her.
Final word of advice: Just because a girl has a high sex drive with multiple sex partners does not mean she will have a high sex drive for frequent sex with you in a monogamous relationship. I was going more than a month usually between.
LOL post this at Two X Chromosomes sometime, telling them, yeah, past sexual history does matter, folks, as an indicator.
Watch the ban hammer come out...
I'm sure it won't change anything. Instead of refuting or accepting what has been presented, they'll just shift it to, "Well what about men and all the women they have sex with". Which, I admit, is a valid argument, but it doesn't address what was originally put forth (a woman's promiscuity).
I did this on another account in a related subreddit to what he mentioned. I can't share it here due to rules, but bottom line was a lot of NAWALT replies and negative comment scores for everything I said in that thread.
I've been on reddit a few months now and I'm amazed at the level of self-deception and irrational beliefs people are capable of, and then they get offended when you point it out to them.
It's like you're in the wrong for not validating their unique, unorthodox and wrongheaded opinion.
Not only wrong, but offensive, shouted down for disagreeing, and pick a negative adjective like pedophile, rapist, or abuser to describe you. They will silence reason, logic, and facts if they don't fit the dogma they have faith in.
How do you know those are really sincere "beliefs" and not outright lies?
To the shock and awe of everyone.
Except the average guy doesn't even come close to having sex with more than 30 women in his life, unless he's paying for it. You'd have to be a real alpha to apprach those numbers. Whereas even an average woman could easily have had sex with that many people just in her early 20's.
Verrry good point. I knew an ugly chick who was quiet and didn't talk to anyone in high school.
Turned out a whole neighborhood of guys were fucking and getting head from her because she was so easy. And some of these guys were able to pull at least 8's.
Confirmation bias is showing.
Just because you haven't does not make you the norm.
I broke 20+ before leaving high school abd STI are easy to avoid IF you have the talk and say no to men or women that engage in hazardous behavior.
Fyi I am in average a 6-7, better myself to the 8 range. It was all Robert heinlien and maintaining frame (without knowing what I was doing) that got me laid.
It was acting like a beta that made it stop, every single time I've tried it dries up.
Come on, be real guy, having sex with 20+ people before you're 18 is not the norm!
Yeah they would miss the fact that all of those risks apply to both men and women. It isn't like me. Don't get stds.
don't bring around piece of data that don't fit into the broader narrative please, makes it harder to maintain the matrix
edit: duplicate comment
This shit is fucking terrifying. It doesn't matter what you believe about past partner count and whether it matters or not. Believe what you want, but being indifferent or taking a woman's word that she's only slept with 3 people is blind optimism and you are only gambling with your personal health.
That's true. But this one was honest about her count being 30+. At the time I simply was okay with that fact. I was the one who had only 2 prior sex partners.
Relavent
Hahaha! I saw this long ago and think about it subconsciously every time I hear about or mention partner counts.
Relavent
I'm just glad it wasn't the herp. One of my other crushes from college, my real oneitis, who I never did hook up with, ended up having that!
I'm asymptomatic now for over 3 years, and if I'm still an HPV carrier, most women are immune to that strain thanks to vaccination.
They're really good at those pressure flips. Never mind the bad thing she did that made you lose your shit, the betrayal, the disgust - no, her choice, her body - you're a cunt, HOW DARE YOU FLIP OUT ON HER? YOU NEVER FLIP OUT ON A WOMAN EVEN IF SHE FUCKS YOUR FATHER, YOUR BROTHER AND CLEANS OUT YOUR BANK ACCOUNT. YOU JUST DON'T DO IT. (fyi: That would make a great disagree and amplify.) Honestly, fuck modern women who do this shit. Fuck feminism. Fuck all the faggots enabling them. It's all bullshit. They twist everything. Massive red flags right there. I hope you're free of this cunt now.
If a woman gave me anal warts... How are there not more men shooting women on the news? Not that I would condone that, but Jesus Christ.
wow dude, you were a chump. I know you know, but damn.
Most of us here were. No need to rub it in ;)
Nah, rub it in and add salt. We can't let each other go back to being pussies like that.
Damnit! I hate it when I agree with both CornyHoosier and you!!
Finish the story! Did you eventually dump her ass?
She told me to move out for some childish tantrum based reason which she then hamstered retroactively, by claiming she meant temporarily. This was completely made up to protect herself from the truth; she was the one who outwardly pushed me out, even though inwardly she didn't want to break up, just play mind games. I consider that it was she who dumped me by making me move out, while she considers that it was I who dumped her by obeying her demand to move out, and by declining to move back in.
The use of present tense worries me because it implies that you still interact with this woman. Unless you have children together, you need to cut those ties to her ASAP. She is toxic.
I had tried to be friendly acquaintances but she wanted more. She wanted me to be "invested" and "committed" to a "friendship". This sounds a lot like more relationship talk to me so I told her I can't offer any of that. She told me not to contact her then. She continued to contact me every few months by text, talk a little, then remind me not to contact her.
I explained to her that she had created a one-way dynamic of communication, and told her not to contact me, reminding her that she expects the same of me. She understood and so far that's that, for the last couple months.
Well that's fucked up, but you're here now. Stay strong.
On the bright side I'm dating a naturally RPW type lady for almost two years now.
How is that the bright side?
She could win a fucking gold medal in Mental Gymnastics.
Holy shit, the mock dumping.
The UN considers mock executions a form of torture, IIRC.
Mock dumpings are a huge red flag in my book.
The number of women who've pulled this on me is way higher than I ever would've expected.
I suppose it wasn't actually mock, it was regret. Like, she came to her senses once I was actually not living there anymore.
The idea that she wanted me out only temporarily was a whopper of a lie, both to herself and to me.
Jesus christ man. That is impressively awful.
One thing I didn't mention is that it really stung that it was a threesome. She knew I was interested in having one, and I've never done that.
Well why would she? You were the "stable" one. She'd never do something so filthy and nasty with you, right? She "respects" you too much.
...so how do I get all future partners to get tested before we do the needful? This thread is scaring the shit out of me
.
I want a family one day. Doing that without marriage brings plenty of its own drawbacks.
This is what makes me so fuckin amped up about being red pill is when women try beta shaming to lure you back into their frame. I was that chump just like you, but whenever a girl tries baiting me like this, especially if it's for something like your case, I laugh in her face and just leave. It's like a baby lion telling the alpha lion to fuck off. Haha you want fries with that, cutie?
I don't know how you did it man. If a woman gave me an std like that, I'd probably slap the shit out of her and leave for good.
Yeah I was a bitch about the whole thing. I didn't blame her at all at the time. I chose to stay with her because how could I date anyone else if I potentially had an STD now?
Why I didn't start using protection is beyond me. Looking back at when symptoms began, there was actually a good chance that I was still clean at the time that I learned of her status.
not true, you have sex one time with someone who has HPV it's game over, you have it.
Uh, wrong!
http://m.livescience.com/16665-hpv-transmission-rates-20-percent.html
uh, that's not a good source
And that's just the physical stuff.
What matters even more (because the odds are worse) is that past behaviour is a predictor of future behaviour.
The reason a woman has a high partner count is because guys didn't stick around after banging her. It doesn't matter how easily she gives it up, if she such a keeper that the first guy she gives it up easy to puts a ring on it six months later.
A slut is a woman whose only appeal to men is physical, so she has to substitute sexual availability for girl game. That means having a high partner count is the symptom, not the disease. The disease is whatever awful personality trait it is that made all those other men run for the hills.
If they did that, you should, too.
This isn't necessarily the primary reason. Her partners may have wanted commitment and she may have turned them down because she was 24 and didn't want to think about marriage for another decade.
... and the man making the offer was not Jared Leto.
A woman is totally ready to settle down, at any age, if the man is deemed worthy. It is just that her scale of worthy is often really distorted. In this day and age, too many 19-24 year olds act as though they think, eventually, a gorgeous 29 year old billionaire thundercocker will wife them. But until such time, the gals are going to just play the field until that Man God appears.
Check out China's propaganda on "leftover women"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheng_nu
I don't think it's on the wikipedia page, but one of their slogans is "yes, the perfect man may be out there, but why would he want you?"
Hah, wow, ouch. And that was before all of this "global terror" stuff where everyone thinks they'll die from a terrorist, so that was REALLY driving home a point.
.
Did anyone really think it could end any other way?
Because only in America must a woman's reward for kinky sexual gratification be marriage, instead of just two adults physically enjoying each other.
And that woman isn't by nature interested in marriage. She is just interested because her circumstances have changed and she is afraid of getting old alone.
I don't think that's accurate. I've talked to plenty of women (and read about plenty more) who have every intention of getting married someday -- they just want to start a career/make it through grad school/travel more/fuck more first. As another commenter in this thread pointed out women are always interested in marriage; they simply start out with absurdly high standards. Those standards lower as they age and get more realistic, but they start somewhere.
Right, but that demonstrates that marriage is maybe 4 or 5 on her priority list. She would rather be doing those other things instead. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean they will put less effort into it than someone who puts getting married as there number 1 priority.
Also to add on, she may have been seeking a committed relationship from those out of her league. Which will result in an alpha widow.
Or she may have been searching for someone who was in her league, but just did not want a commitment. Thats my situation. I'm dealing with women I wouldn't mind being in an LTR with. But I just refuse to commit right now. But each one is trying. I may break and do it. But I know it won't last long.
Either way. This also could lead to being an alpha widow. But this also goes back to women not giving it away so easily. If you get dropped by these guys, stop being so quick to fuck them. Honestly, young alphas typically aren't the type to commit. Thats something they need to learn.
And the trait being observed in your example is "poor future planning" i.e. inability to delay instant gratification
Don't be surprised if you get a barrage of downvotes; but yes of course, there is always exceptions. However, in the realm of AWALT high partner count is a good indicator that guys don't stick around after banging her.
You could also throw in that she traveled all through Europe and the pacific in her early twenties and so she never was around enough for a real LTR. You can make as many "exceptions" as you want, but AWALT is AWALT.
I don't think this is an exception -- I think it's a natural conclusion from other TRP ideas:
None of these are controversial, and together they paint a picture of a woman who remains single not (necessarily) because she has some undesirable flaw, but because she's desirable enough that she has near limitless options. Anyone who has unlimited sex thrown at them in their 20s will be reluctant to give that up.
And that's part of the problem, too.
Women with quality partner hold off marriage while on the peak of their attractiveness, fails to acquire a similar quality partner later in life.
Hello Alpha Widow.
I think the age of the internet and social media is currently playing a huge role in this phenomenon. Nowadays, not only are we competing with the coolest guy in the room at a party, we're competing with the coolest guy out of the 800 something rando's that added her on FB or instagram.
I wifed up my baby mama when she was 19 and I was 20 at the time. She was the hottest girl in her sorority and I was one of the better looking guys on the baseball team. We both had a similar notch count which didn't bother me too much cuz I was kind of a slut too. I asked her to get tested if she ever wanted me to go down on her. Haha. Of course she did. We tested together. Be smart and be safe folks!
10 years later I can't help but think of how high her count would be if I didn't wife her up. How long would she have rode the CC? Would she have been smart enough to know when to stop and settle down?
I got her at 19..I can't even imagine what its like to wife up a 29 year old with only God knows what new strains of super resistant bacterium are cultivating down below.
One undesirable flaw girls have is one or more kids riding her super slip and slide vagina, never married, multiple fathers, and all of them were "abusive jerks who controlled and beat them"
So many bad choices, so much evidence of it, but they really whine about having to live with the consequences.
Landing an apex alpha is AWALT. No one on here is an apex alpha so it seems AWALT means anti monogamy.
Just to tag onto that in regards to travel and partner count:
Even before RP, if I was on a date with a girl and she told me about how "well traveled" she was, I always felt some sort of inner repulsion. I couldn't help but imagine her vag being tossed around like a football. Well-travelled indeed...
I don't understand how betas can brag about how their girl has been all over the world like it's some sort of accomplishment. Is it just me or is travel indicative of both high partner count & that no man in the world will stick with her?
Ehh, I think you're generalizing here a little bit. I'm sure a lot of hot chicks who go on backpacking trips in their 20's DO get around, but I don't think it's as clear to generalize that with riding the CC as a girl who has "only guy friends cause girls are too much drama".
The former displays someone who has a hunger to see the world and go on some kind of adventure. The latter is a person who has shitty thought processes and most likely can't understand that they themselves are actually the problem in their "girls are too dramatic" scenario.
The chicks who think "girls are too dramatic, I'm just like one of the guys!" are probably too irresponsible and stupid to organize a backpacking trip. That's just my two cents though.
It is the mirror of the female drive: They desire the men every other female wants too, which is the reason that men in relationships are more attractive ceteris paribus.
A fun analogy I can think of, in the movies when there's a crowd of people running from some explosion or monster, going towards the monster that everyone is running from is probably not in your best interest.
This is so fucking spot on it's not even funny. I actually had a talk with an ex recently about how she's getting to the age that she needs to legitimately learn girl game if she wants to land that BB before 35.
Pussy has an expiration date.
How did she respond? And more importantly what did she do?
I made this mistake too. I was told I was right and then my advice was completely ignored. Women have such a distorted view about their value, they don't listen to reason. I regret trying.
She cried, honestly. I was more brutal than I had to be.
If the guys didn't stick around, it's an indicator that she makes bad hook-up choices, and/or she's a psycho/bitch gf who sends guys fleeing.
So, still a slut. Probably a crazy one.
Those are the "soft social markers" he was talking about.
studs/alpha's pump and dump GF material all the time.
So you're telling me actions have consequences?
and that, somehow, those consequences actually result from those actions?
Can we nominate this man as the resident trp doctor? I enjoy these medical facts.
He's like Dr. Hannibal Lector with his Machiavellian amused mastery, except he doesn't eat people. Well... I don't think does. Dude do you eat people?
I'll bring the fava beans and a nice Chianti.
I second the nomination. I love this guy already.
Good stuff, OP. To add to your stories, I recently was working in the ER when I treated a 23 year soldier who had penile discharge. The guy had only ever been active with one woman. He had come back from a tour of duty. It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together....
Of course she exhibited many of the carousel riding red flags. She was a little older than he was, had the slutty tattoos and piercings and a prickly/aggressive demeanor. She also had a very revealing outfit on a cold winter day in February.
These women are fucking jokes when I witness them. Lost beyond lost and due to all the brutal treatment they gave me in my adolescents, I love seeing their downfall and especially my uprising. Life is fucking amazing.
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He's not really taking revenge, just observing how life has an element of karmic justice sometimes. He doesn't seem hateful (to me).
I'm not getting revenge, I'm just living life as an alpha male. Revenge would be me going up to the girls that are trainwrecks now and saying https://youtu.be/pxlCfoZholo
I just laugh because I used to view these people as so much above me, yet they are so below me. Shows you how strong social conditioning ruins most men. It's biological to conform because 'safety in the herd'. Our primal brains haven't caught up to modern living so we have to train ourselves out of certain things.
My view is that ultimately, focusing on anger and hate is good for short term results, but bad for the long term. If I'm angry and mad, I'm gonna hammer it out in the gym and at work. But in the long term, you need to find that inner peace. NFL player Steve Smith went through the same thing. That anger he had in him propelled him to the big leagues, but once in, that anger led to suspensions and jail time. He's still intense, but you can tell he isn't angry anymore.
Amen. Hatred can only bring you down. What if one of those "bitches" ends up having a great life? There isn't always justice in this world.
Their looks have faded, they have had the great life for 30 years and destroyed their beauty in the process. It's cats and Netflix from here on out lol
The right decision USNR what your moral compass says. A girl who was a massive slut can at any time change in a heartbeat for the right beta bux and start a happy upper middle class lifestyle. My dad is dating one who still dabbles in clubbing for a girls night out every now and then. Mid thirties living with a guy in his early 50's who did well for himself. I guarantee she rode the CC hard, but she was able to get off 6 years ago and has landed her BB and literally bought and designed everything in his house except a single lamp.
I'm sure there are plenty who grew up with her who are in your position. Life isn't fair or just. Internalize it and accept it.
Not always. Sometimes the bad guys win and have a happily ever after. Reality has no sense of fairness or retribution.
Sure, it can happen. Interesting thing though, none of my alpha widows have done much of anything with their lives. Each and every one I have some kind of contact with is doing far worse. They make bad choices based on impulse, they leech off men to survive, they usually aren't the type who will make their lives better through effort. We rebuild, they try to get something from us on the promise of sex. Our lives will get better provided we keep working on ourselves, stagnate and go nowhere. Theirs is dependent upon what quality of man they can get, and that quality drops precipitously after they hit 30.
I'm old, 45 laps around the sun, have a notch count over the century mark. Married twice for a total of 16 years. No bitch i had an LTR with in my past is doing better than I am. Maybe some ONS is, but there has been so many I can't remember their names even if I knew them.
These women should be pitied. They never had proper mother and father figures who raised them to be a strong individuals or how to look inwardly and reflect on how they may be wrong. You and I have both taken the pill. We've admitted we had short comings and wish to improve ourselves.
Let go of the hate ... you'll feel much better in the long run
don't waste your time on schadenfreude and petty revenge. it's childish. grow the fuck up.
I'm pretty sure he put the money on the nightstand before the activities began. Nothing wrong with that. Just saying...
Well she certainly had some great "after sales service" if the product wasn't great. That was quite nice of her to accompany him to the ER visit!
How the hell do you guys not get paranoid with plates etc.? Even with condoms you can't be 100 percent sure you won't catch some shit.
A dick is safe in your pants, but that's not what dicks are for
You gotta live, man. The older you get the more you realize that someday you're gonna be an old man and someday you're gonna die. You can't live your life afraid of every little danger. So you make it to your grave without ever getting an STD. Congrats?
HSV is the only STD that's likely to be with you for life that you have any meaningful chance of contracting. If you do get it, the primary negative impact on your life will be that you have sex with fewer women... Wait a second here...
The conclusion that I come to, the balance that makes sense for me, is to use protection but otherwise don't let fear of STD's dictate my thoughts or actions.
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Gonorrhea does not give you cancer. HPV can give you cancer. So can steaks and days at the beach.
It would depend on your life strategy. I mean, I wouldn't marry a woman who had an STD. Most quality women would not want to settle down with a guy who has an STD.
If you intend to be single your whole life, then yeah don't worry about STDs, but if you want to settle down some day, then know an STD will lower the quality of partner you can attract.
Hello, HPV calling, how can I help you?
"Most HPV infections are transient and asymptomatic, causing no clinical manifestations. Studies have shown that more than 90% of new HPV infections, including those with high-risk types, clear or become undetectable within two years, and clearance usually occurs in the first 6 months after infection.[11], [18-20] Persistent infection with high-risk HPV is the most important risk factor for cervical cancer precursors and invasive cervical cancer."
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt05-hpv.html
It's okay to be afraid of something.
But choosing to let that fear control you makes you a coward.
And we aren't cowards. We're Men.
It would depend on your life strategy. I mean, I wouldn't marry a woman who had an STD. Most quality women would not want to settle down with a guy who has an STD.
If you intend to be single your whole life, then yeah don't worry about STDs, but if you want to settle down some day, then know an STD will lower the quality of partner you can attract.
Its not fear. Its risk/reward.
cost-benefit. For some, the pleasure is worth the risk. It's on you.
Hey, Doc, why didn't you mention that some strains of Gonorrhea are resistant to Ceftriaxone? It is the last line of treatment for G. if other antibiotics do not work.
I hope you guys do understand what does that mean, do you?
10 years ago, I'd be mad as hell if a young or middle aged woman had too many miles and spouted one of those typical bullshit phrases such as 'Count/number doesn't matter' 'She chose you' and the ever-brilliant 'It's in the past.' Nowadays, it doesn't bother me unless they try to deny their nature. Now I just laugh when these little sluts try to gear-shift as the wall approaches and they try to pass themselves off as being worthy of being a wife/mother/girlfriend/LTR. Stop denying your true nature, ladies. Make your choice early and stick with it or shut the fuck up. I'd have more respect for them if they said: 'I've been the town's bicycle, and I'll probably keep going and wrack up hundreds of thousands more miles on the whoredometer....oh well, I can't change now. Today is my turn with my Alpha master, so I better go and not keep him waiting or he'll go to the next plate on his list.' as opposed to 'My number shouldn't matter.' 'But I ultimately chose you.' '[Insert scripted bullshit hamster rationalization here]' Edited for spelling and grammar.
I choose you to pay for all my shit. That's what she's saying. I choose you to buy me a house and take care of me when I'm old. I'll have sex with you until we are married and then I'm going to develop some condition, a headache or possibly a new found asexuality, and stop having sex with you. At this point in time I will get "curious" about how my old "friends" are doing and contact them on facebook. Later I'll meet one guy just to "catch up" and somehow his penis will end up being rammed around in my body. But I still choose you to buy me stuff!
Well, it's about survival. Eventually, they're not going to be on that list so what do you expect?
I think we know each other somewhere else on the internet by different names
Can you please come over to /r/fatlogic and share this sordid tale?
There's a fat chick on my Facebook who posted the following:
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Holy shit my grandma has the exact same carpet.
hoooooooooly shit that's hilarious
Oh jesus that is actually sad.
You should reward her breakthrough with cupcakes with giant tear drops iced on top.
/r/fatpeoplehate is waiting, too.
Hey doc, I would really appreciate if you could answer some questions:
I always go with a rubber for penetration, but I never wear one for blowjobs. Is it too risky? Any way of minizing the risk?
Aside from REALLY obvious signs like fetid smell and discharge in her vagina, is there any sort of "quick assessment" you can make (discretely) to a girl you're about to fuck to find out if she might have some std? Any noticeable giveaways?
Assuming you found out that a girl you fucked an hour ago was dirty with something, what can you do right there to minimize the damage?
Thanks a lot.
It's a great privilege to have a smart lad in our ranks. Keep these stories coming, they're pure gold.
Genital-oral mucosal contact always carries the risk of HPV or HSV (herpes) transmission. Generally, if your partner's been previously active, there is always a chance she is a carrier, and there is no HPV screening test for males. Obviously, I would advise abstaining from a BJ from someone with obvious symptoms like open mouth sores, or signs of gonorrheal pharyngitis.
The issue with otherwise normal appearing partners is that the results won't be seen for many years. By the odds, even if you are infected, you probably won't get cancer from HPV. But my point all along is that there is a undisputable, and quantifiable medical difference between having sex with someone who is less promiscuous vs. someone who is. Risk of HPV/herpes is part of that calculation.
The safest way is to get tested prior to activity. Unless you have a lamp, speculum, and lab ready, there is no way you can 100% tell if a girl is clear of gonorrhea/trichomonas/chlamydia by physical exam alone because the culture swabs need to be taken from the cervix as well. Besides smell/discharge, things like warts (these are generally clustered, with a verrucous (rough) surface, as opposed to pimples from shaving), ulcers, visible masses (swollen Bartholin glands) are visible; however, if you're in the situation where you're trying to play impromptu doctor, you've already made the wrong choice. Stay as safe as possible and get tested. You've only yourself to blame if you let your lust control your health.
If you need STD screening after a sketch encounter, it depends on the elapsed time from exposure and your symptoms. There are slightly different protocols. Regardless, you need to see your doctor. At the end of the day, from your POV, I am just another guy on the Internet. I have nothing to prove here other than the fact that I want to both contribute and amuse subscribers here with my unique perspective.
So how do I get future partners to agree to a new STI test before we do the needful?
I started my escapades in the SMV before AIDS hit the 1st world population. Back then there was a lot of shame attached to STDs and the other consequences you have mentioned. The advent of HIV has sort of put the things you highlight into the category of the common cold. It boggles my mind.....
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It still costs 10 grand per month which is out of reach for more than 99% of the population.
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This is all true, but would it not also be an argument against men being promiscuous? They are at just as high a risk, especially with rising promiscuity in general.
The Red Pill's primary issues with women in particular being promiscuous relates to other factors, not primarily STIs.
It is.
If you sleep with a lot of women, you're almost certainly gonna get something. Condoms help but are far from 100% effective.
I caught something from my promiscuity. Two kids, a huge chunk of my income taken, and my credit destroyed. No, I didn't cheat, she did. I unknowingly knocked up the town bicycle.
I crawled out of the gene pool years ago. Can't get back in. Honestly I'm amazed I never caught any diseases. Lots of snatch run across my Johnson. Doc has done multiple blood tests, I'm clear. Charmed life i guess.
Women are more susceptible. Thinner genital linings, reception of STI laced fluids, and a hospitable micro-organism environments make a one night stand a bigger risk for women. Uncircumsized men have also been shown to contract HIV more frequently during studies in Africa. Men, who don't get exposure through anal sex, are more resistant. But enough repeated exposure will have the same result.
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Yes, obviously. We all know this already
A man who buys more cars is bound to purchase a lemon at one point or another.
This is true. However, a promiscuous man is still allowed to have a preference for non-promiscuous women based on the logic in the OP.
E.g. A fat man can still prefer to fuck fit women. The fact that he is fat does not render his reasoning for preferring fit women redundant (e.g. healthier offspring)
A quick google search yielded this: http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/STDs-Women-042011.pdf
So women are indeed at higher risk.
You're right also in that promiscuous men are more at risk that non-promiscuous men.
I suppose that it's a matter of weighting the risks and returns. If you want to fuck around, you have to realize that you are at more risk. The thing is though, life is not about avoiding risk, but taking calculated risks.
The lesson here is DON'T LTR PROMISCUOUS WOMEN, it's just not profitable.
Men are indeed per partner at lower risks. Love this post, as an MD I've had this conversation numerous times with dumbfounded friends. Its as if the agenda of embracing "wymyn's sexuality" ignores the facts that have been gathered by scientists, physicians, and researchers. Most women and men in their sexually active years are woefully unaware.
However, worth noting is TRP guy taking advantage of his top 20% station, racking up the HPV exposure with multiple partners. It's his due, and I'm all about it. But when he uses his alpha appeal to land a very low partner count/virgin LTR (or even if he plates a virgin/partner count <2 woman), he is likely carrying numerous HPV strains (HPV is transmitted by any skin to skin contact, and not entirely protected by condoms). He had better hope she is young and has had the HPV vaccine because upon initiation of sexual activity, she gets inoculated with a ton of viral strains, at an older age- a recipe for cervical cancer (the body reacts to HPV exposure better at a younger age. In older times, initiation of sexually activity at ages <21 with only one partner meant that the body had better chances of clearing the one inoculation of limited number of viral strains. Older women clear strains much slower/ more poorly, but thankfully in historical times they were settled down and no new innoculations occurred with a faithful partner. This can be canceled out in recent data with "younger age of sexual activity onset" because of CC riding and association with higher total partner count/HPV exposures). Rare case, only seen it once in a OBGyn clinic, but worth keeping in mind when selecting a LTR if you don't want to have to ditch her after she gets precancer (assuming TRP masters are the ones who can swing such a LTR partner).
Yes. Its less of an issue for men, but its still an issue. However, you will still see a lot of guys here trying to rationalize it away.
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Yeah, normally I am a fan of the Red Pill but its odd watching these guys "hamster" around the issue.
By having sex with a bunch of women, you are also lowering your SMV.
80% of women fuck 20% of men. Most women are promiscuous because it's easy for women to get laid. Most men are not because only 20% of them have the attractive qualities that allow them to be promiscuous.
Sure, but a large chunk of TRP belongs in this 20% of men. Therefore the risks involved in male promiscuity are indeed worthy of discussion.
Very few of the 100,000 members are or ever will be in "the 20%". Knowing the rules does not make you a pro player.
Good point. I think far too many guys here just hang around regurgitating sidebar material, thinking they're offering nuanced advice.
You don't become good at football by sitting around watching the NFL and repeating the commentary. And you don't learn much by saying what other people should have done in the situation, now that the consequences are clear.
You become a pro by going out there and practising, by failing, and by succimbing to your weaknesses and learning what your own personal shortcomings are.
While someone like Tony Kornheiser might have found a lucrative niche analysing sports in an entertaining way, he's still just the king of the spectators.
The posts of value come from coaches like Rollo, who have played the game and studied its rules, and synthesise that into new theories and models for behavior.
The head coach knows all the plays and techniques to a fucking T. But put him on the field and see what happens.
I think such a fact-riddled OP is tainted by your use of this 80/20 idea. Is there any solid research to back this up? Or is it mere speculation that isn't called out because it fits with TRP's agenda? Genuine question.
Its common for people to preach "get out there and have sex with a bunch of women" on this subreddit, so its worth noting that by having sex with a bunch of women, you are also lowering your SMV.
What makes you think having sex with lots of women lowers your smv? It's well accepted here that it raises your smv.
STDs lower your SMV.
Its not guaranteed, but on average guys who have a lot of one night stands are going to have more STDs and thus lower SMV.
it's really sad to read all the posts on reddit about people who end up with STD's. they never thought that it could happen to them. it amazes me how my peers, who are educated upper middle class, don't seem to realize the danger. I get myself tested for the usual STDs plus HSV every year or two because it's fucking irresponsible to NOT know if you're spreading diseases, but I've never met another person who's had HSV testing. it drives me crazy that there are so many irresponsible people out there, even among the top tiers of educated people.
You are one ruthless motherfucker. I love it.
Reminds me of another reason I went MGTOW. Buddy called me gay for this, but I was like, "Well... I call it my own shit-test. If I'm about to bang a girl, I go to put on a condom. If she tells me it's unneeded, I somehow get turned off and don't want anything to do with her anymore. I walk out. If she'll let me go in raw, imagine all the other dudes that went in raw and got to bust in her. Yeah... Reeeeeeeal sexy, isn't it?"
Take a look at a car or any vehicle, well maintained and serviced with few owners and it'll run well for a reasonable time. take a car that's poorly treated and maintained and goes through a number of owners and you'll get what we Australian's call a shitbox.
A little off topic how does having a rectovaginal fistula relate to promiscuous behavior?
Not that I don't believe you just I'm wondering if it's caused by the physical act of many dick taking that eventually causes it... and is that at all common? Lol.
Should have been more specific about that - fistulas and pelvic organ prolapse are more commonly associated with vaginal or anal trauma from complicated childbirth, and less commonly, but still possible, with foreign body insertion (whether toys or dicks).
Cool thanks for the info doc.
My wife is going through fistulectomy surgery recovery due to complications from a pilonidal cyst removal. Fistulas make me cringe, they're just an open wound that never closes sometimes. I'm all for standards but if a woman had a vagina-rectum fistula I'd do nothing but pity her condition and fight off the cringe every time I thought about it. She's in for a world of hurt.
Wait, so my big dick is a threat to the sanctity of her vaginal walls?!
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Almost beat me to it, but to add to what you said, severe PID, tubo-ovarian abscesses, and complex or emergent hysterectomies resulting from them are also risk factors for fistulas later in life.
However total hysts are becoming less common for TOAs, and fertility can usually be preserved.
I didn't even know that, thank you for the tip. I was thinking more like HPV anal cancer in immuno-compromised patients, or perhaps Crohn's or UC induced bowel wall fistula, should've thought mechanical trauma, DUH.
Maybe in the future we can have a "Spit in a cup, know if they have an STI/STD in 5 minutes" app
I wish. These diseases stay out of the spit and even out of the blood much of the time. When they are not active they're easy for doctors to miss.
First good on you for being a doctor.
Even in magic no stds exists land you DO NOT want to wife a hoe.
You get to a high partner count by cheating. My morality on cheating is whatever, no love lost as long as you didn't fiscally depend on the person and it wasn't to serious.
Large partner count women have at some point cheated off a man that provided for them. You will be the next beta if your stupid enough to provide!
Gonna disagree on cheating as the only cause of high partner counts. It can be a factor, but there are plenty of men and women racking up sex for fun.
Like, if you're in an LTR and do a couple consensual threesomes or foursomes, you're both increasing scores. It doesn't have to be a bad thing, especially if you're teaming up.
It's not always cheating. They could have just been (or still currently be) a big hoe that has a bunch of casual sex and hook-ups.
Maybe or when they cheat "we weren't really together".
Yup, we should totally forget what happened in the past but..... Not when they leave a permanent effect on us no?
Good post but I feel like you are not 100% accurate with this. I am afraid your picture is a little too rosy, in reality we now have gonorrhea that is incurable: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/incurable-gonorrhea-hits-north-american-shores/
You might want to edit your post...
This scientific shit. We need more of this. Great post
Vaginas, which are designed to sustain sperm are literally bacteria factories. They have a much higher risk of contracting some diseases than men do due to weaker genital linings, reception of STI laced fluids, exposed mucuous membranes, and a hospitable micro-organism environment. Especially if that man is circumsized. Also, HPV is almost entirely a female problem as men cannot contract cervical cancer. (Men can have throat cancer develop later sometimes, but this is very rare.) The CDC reports that 47 percent of black women have contracted genital herpes, the not so friendly type 2 kind. Be careful out there fellas. Basically, the pill and abortions have exacerbated the CC nature of almost any girl. If you are going raw dog or long term, get her checked out. Then rechecked on regular intervals.
Fact sheet on female risk factors from the CDC. http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/STDs-Women-042011.pdf
Remember, condoms won't protect you against herpes.
Actually, condoms can protect you to a large degree against herpes, just not 100%.
But the reality is she can get an STD from any partner, no matter if he is her 1st or 50th, if she is not having protected sex. She could be a virgin and marry a RP plate spinning man and contract HIV.
Honestly, this as well as the legal risk involved with psychotic women who like to file false legal claims is the number 2 reasons I don't consider spinning plates a good idea.
STDs are way, way more common than false rape claims.
I'm glad you mentioned herpes!
Our friend /u/GayLubeOil had a little Google Hangouts debate with a bunch of BP schlubs about their "open relationship orgies" and near the end found out that they're all pretty much okay with getting herpes and all the shit that comes with it including childbirth complications and health. Straight from the herd's mouth, everybody.
I like how they're totally oblivious to the carcinogenic consequences of HPV/HSV infections and they're nonchalant about passing it on to any kids they may have. If they gave birth to a kid and it got herpes, it could die or be permanently blinded from the infection.
I hope these people contract antibiotic resistant gonorrhea that damages their reproductive system so they can't ever reproduce
I'm actually more impressed by OP's attitude towards his job. To me, it borders amusement. As someone who has considered the MD route I hear a lot of Doc's becoming depressed over seeing these kind of things. Good write up.
Just ask Michael Douglas...
Catherine Zeta Jones had her fun on the CC, then gave her sugar daddy, beta bux, celebrity husband throat cancer.
Dude, if you think Douglas hasn't banged hundreds of other women besides her you're crazy.
I'm sure CZJ rode the CC, but she is only one possible vector of infection.
Are you suggesting that we men of /r/theredpill practice sexual abstinence so as to avoid potentially giving our future wives HPV-related throat cancer?
HPV is everywhere, everyone gets it, most of the time it's cleared by the body without incident, and rarely, very rarely, it progresses into cancer. You're making a lot about a little. Unless people start practicing abstinence until marriage, this stuff happens.
Personally, before I got married, I didn't fuck outside of LTRs / potential LTRs for that reason... so yeah.
I'm personally not on board with the whole plate spinning thing... seems like it's for guys trying to overcome confidence issues, etc. To me spinning a plate that isn't going to go anywhere long-term is just boring as fuck. Once the potential for long-term was gone I wasn't into a girl anymore.
But I had a really alpha dad and I'm from a rich family in a poorer part of the country... and I'm 6'3 so it's not like getting laid has never really ever been an issue.
I wouldn't say celibacy, but vaccination, proper deployment of condoms, and rigorous partner screening before upgrading her to "safe for rawdoggin" status sounds sensible.
I wouldn't go that far though. Its a calculated risk for each guy.
Personally, I avoid sex with high partner count women for this reason though.
Point is that you can't really make a big thing about how awful and terrible Catherine Zeta Jones is for - gasp - contracting HPV (did he get it from her? We have no idea) while maintaining the idea that guys should be out there "spinning plates".
This submission, and the responses to it, honestly sounds like a lot of jealous hand wringing dudes who don't get laid. Guys in here are so stoked that sluts are getting their comeuppance - "justice!" they shout. Huh?
Y'all realize that if you want to "spin plates" and fuck and chuck chicks, you gotta fuck the kind of chicks who are down with being spun and fucked and chucked, yes? If you wanna pull a chick from the bar and fuck her, you're going to be fucking the kind of chick who fucks guys who pull her from the bar... that's math. It's one thing to avoid sluts for marriage. That's obviously a good play. But the vibe in here is getting weird.
If I didn't know better I'd swear that this place is getting overrun more and more every day with whiny faux alpha losers who have a chip on their shoulder about women because they can't get laid.
I completely agree. TRP has some useful advice, but there is some real dissonance here. The guys here seem to realize that a high partner count has serious drawbacks, but they still want to have sex with a lot of girls. So they are trying to rationalize why its okay for them to do it but not women.
It's the same with the herp. Everybody has it in one form or another.
Cold sores, fever blisters...
Some folks have it worse than others.
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The fact is, you are at risk. You already have some form of HPV, whether or not it develops into cancer remains to be seen. Give us an update in 20 years.
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There is no test besides "Wait and see."
Well if you read between the lines it basically says in theory there are pap tests that could work, just none are FDA approved because it is a male problem. There is no male cancer foundation giving money to research a test.
I had a bit of an argument with a friend of mine over this just recently. I told him I could only marry a girl with a low partner count and he thought I was being insecure. I gave him this analogy.
Say you have $18,000 cash to buy a car. There are two cars that you're choosing between; a brand new car, or a well used car. Both cars are nice cars.
The new car costs $21,000, $3,000 more than you have right now, but the used car is $14,000.
The brand new one has very low mileage, just from a few test drives. Full warranty. Everything is factory new. New car smell.
The used car has high mileage, a few dents, buggy radio but it's cheap and it isn't a terrible car.
If it's me, I'm going to save up the other $3,000 and get the new car. Taking the extra time to raise that little bit extra will pay off by getting me a car barely anyone has touched that, with regular care and maintenance, can last me possibly the rest of my life. There is a chance of it shitting out on me, but it's a small one.
I'm definitely not going to get the beater. It might be a great car now, and a killer value, but you're going to invest too much money in keeping it running and there's a high probability of it shitting out on you early on. On top of that, you'll have to get a CarFax report to see if it's been in any accidents the dealership may not have mentioned. It's just not worth it even if you can save the money.
I figure that's a decent enough analogy to explain my position on LTRing a high mileage woman. I'm good with plating them, but settling down? No way.
My friend didn't agree but said he understood where I was coming from
Just wondering, do you think your amount of previous partners should match your potential mates? Or does the count only matter if they are a woman?
Men and women are different so I believe there are different standards
So are black and white people, do you believe they should have different standards too?
great post man. people need to be aware of this...
me. i glove 100% of the time.. and i'm talking 100%.
Well, /u/FreshlyWashedPillow/, as you already know, the vast majority of your patients will lie to you initially, and then give you the most exculpatory explanation of what they did do when they can no longer completely deny the evidence. I still hope you can continue to do your job well and help those small percentage of patients that take your advice to heart and mend their ways.
My only observation is that HSV was irrelevant in the medical community until drug companies stumbled upon anti-viral medication and started a massive media campaign to create a stigma. The identical thing happened right around the time the HPV vaccine was approved.
Pretty sure you can get herpes without ever having sexual contact.
Man, I used to think, stumbling upon Textbooks of Gynaecology , when I was a horny 15 year old, had only cons, and no pros, but now I see I was wrong.
This is the scariest shit I've heard about a vagina since I heard about the movie Teeth. And Teeth is a fictional story about a toothed vagina.
PID is way more common than people think. It can be caused by both gonorrhea and chlamydial infections, often at the same time so usually we give medicine for both to cover it just in case. A cephalosporin and tetracycline, if im not mistaken. Don't want people going infertile, but also the risk of ectopic pregnancy goes up to like 50% once youve got them scarred fallopian tubes.
Exactly, Most women dont realize their reproductive tract is an open system with communication to the abdominal cavity through the fallopian tubes. Once you go into septic shock, good luck.
HPV Anal cancer?
You sir are my type of physician. You should've gone into orthopedic surgery with that attitude, you'd fit right in.
Can you explain how having many partners affects men?
Higher risk of STD contraction compared to men with very few partners.
Well, that's obvious. My question was related to effects specific to men only.
only men can have an std that affects their penis.
There isn't anything that effects men exclusively. You still have Herpes and Gonnoria. And HPV can give you throat cancer.
Also, if you do get herpes or HPV most women won't touch you and if they find out after they can sue you.
Never fucked a high partner count slut, never had an STD in my life. Coincidence?
Causation. Or lack thereof, rather.
Now I don't feel so bad for being a 34 year old virgin.
Still sucks being alone though.
You are virgin by choice. In Japan, you become a "wizard" once you past 30 and 0 relationship sex count. So I say....Congratiz on Lvl 4.
All joking aside, does it bother you that you are a virgin? simply curious
somewhat, only because it becomes more and more apparent to me that with the way the world is it's less and less likely that I'll ever find a good, christian, virgin, loving woman who isn't a hypergamous mess.
Interesting perspective. I wonder how so many doctors decide to get married after witnessing this shit.
Hey I wanted to ask you about something here that seems to be a deliberately hazy topic. I've noticed a lot of wives and girlfriends turning up with hpv several years into a relationship. Only answers seem to be that it's possible the shit stayed around for a decade, so there's no real reason to doubt their word. Thing is, seems to happen quite a bit, how rare is it to test positive for this after being allegedly monotonous for years?
Happy to answer - it's not so much that they "turn up" with HPV several years into a relationship, it's that the screening test women regularly do every 3 years between age 21-69 (the Pap) finally picked up some cervical cells showing signs of precancerous or cancerous changes. It is likely that they were exposed early on in life to HPV from past partners, with the changes finally showing up now.
At the onset of sexual activity, most women are exposed to the HPV virus, which is normally fought off in normal individuals. There are many subtypes of HPV, with varying oncogenic risks, and multiple sexual partners increases your potential exposure to different strains. Once infected, it can take years, even decades for the virus to start causing detectable cancerous changes, hence the regular screening.
Now, for those women who are monogamous with a male who has also never been exposed to HPV, they could theoretically have a lifetime of negative paps.
So to answer your question, it actually isn't rare, and you don't test "positive" so much as one of several possibilities, as the cytology ranges from normal to ASCUS (atypical cells of undetermined significance) to high grade neoplasia. The key point is that such a result is more often than not a result of past (years ago) sexual history, rather than recent cheating, given how long it takes for HPV to cause cancerous changes.
Got a question for you. When I was with my ex she called me one day saying that prior to when we were together she was told by her doctor that something turned up on her pap smear and that she was relieved to find out that day that it was a false positive. She also was telling me all of this conveniently after we started having unprotected sex. She was disgustingly nonchalant about it and I flipped out and she changed her story saying that she found out before we started dating. From what I understand, even if she was telling the whole truth, which I doubt, there is a chance that she exposed me to HPV. It's been almost a year since we broke up and I've had no symptoms.
I should've ran for the hills after she told me she caught chlamydia once (of course it wasn't her fault according to her) and that she has fucked over 20 men. I'm afraid my old BP ways and "accepting her past" may have compromised my health.
In all liklihood, you are already infected by HPV, simply going by the fact that her N = 20 previously. The way the whole HPV timeline generally works is girl contracts HPV @ first oral/genital contact within her first few partners (if none of her first few partners have HPV, she cannot get it, but the chances of this goes down rapidly as N count increases), and transmission is not guaranteed with first contact with an HPV positive partner, but multiple contact with infected partner, or multiple encounters with different partners will both greatly increase chance of eventually contracting it as time goes on). HPV is often repelled by a healthy immune system, but it can also stay dormant. The pap test is essentially a swab of your cells from the cervix thats looked at and examined to see if they display any cancerous changes (caused by HPV). These changes takes years to develop from initially contracting the virus itself. So whether or not her pap was positive doesn't really change much for your risk, because she couldve have been passing it to you despite negative paps. The determining factor is again, hx of multiple partners, early age of sexual activity.
I see. I guess if a wart pops up I shouldn't be surprised. Thanks Doc.
Also, I keep remembering that post a little while back about how the DNA of sperm from past partners is incorporated in children that are conceived later on.
Pretty WTF worthy when coupled with these facts in this post.
The concept is known as "telegony" if you want to do some research
Incredible post and great work in the comments. Thank you for responding to so many comments. Any further info on oropharyngeal cancer risk factors? I see you bolded multiple partners, but what about being a frequent customer of an infected (asymptomatic) individual?
wait a second.. im pretty sure both HSV1 and 2 can occur at both genital and oral locations. it is dependent on where you get exposed to first.
You quoted the word traditionally and then ignored it. That takes skill.
i dont think herpes care very much about tradition...
Don't forget about syphilis - which is a time bomb if not treated. Up to 20-30 years later begins to demonstrate signs of neurodegeneration and mood swings. Hard to diagnose after the open sore period and can lead to infection establishments (gummas) in the brain/CNS, liver, and heart.
This one affects your children's lives because it can fuck with fetal development.
Damn. I made this post in a sleep deprived haze, had no idea it would blow up so big, I will go through and answer more questions in this thread since the response has been so enthusiastic.
Oh, do tell. Lets hear a story doc!
Rectalvaginal fistulas are a thing. Screw sex dude, that's just sick.
This is why I got the HPV vaccine.
I wasn't in a position to even have access to sex until I was in my late 20s, which is outside of the age that they're willing to administer the Gardasil vaccination. I found a doctor that was willing to do it since I had no prior possible exposure and thus couldn't have already contracted HPV, but man it was expensive. Over $300 per shot and I had to get 3 of them.
But it was definitely worth it because I know for a fact it already spared me from getting HPV.
I'm in my early 30s' and they gave it to me without question. My insurance covered the basic 4 type vaccine. If I wanted the 16 type it was going to be $900, so maybe you got the 16 type.
Very true. But by the logic you just stated, shouldn't men try to have a low partner count too, since they are just as vulnerable to STIs as women are?
If the guy's goal is risk minimization and prioritizing their health over racking up an N count, then my answer is an unequivocal yes, they should strive for that. I want to be clear (and not that you implied it), but my original post made no endorsement of irresponsible male sexual behaviour whatsoever. My abrasive and blunt wording may be misconstrued by some as "slut-shaming" while simultaneously encouraging guys sleeping around to prove their alpha-ness. This is deliberate non-sense. What I specifically wished to address was that Partner Count Doesn't Matter for Women(tm) is, from a medical standpoint, farce, and to address the rationale for slut-revulsion from a different perspective than what is usually discussed here.
For the player types that I see for their STD checks, there will be some who take their health seriously and those who are laissez faire. There are always gradations of risk. I cannot tell them how they should pursue what makes them happy, I can only tell them that given their choices, this is what they SHOULD do to be as safe as POSSIBLE (but never 100%). It is up to them to follow or not.
At the end of the day, I took an oath to help and serve all patients, male and female, and sometimes that takes tough love. What I cannot stand is feel-good PC'ness causing people to make dumb decisions and justifying risky behaviour.
Ah I see. I guess I assumed that you were ok with a high partner count for males since this is a post on TRP, but I guess my assumption was in error.
I agree!
Even more risky with the multidrug resistant Gono coming out of Asia.
It seems like nature itself devised STD's to curb promiscuous behavior. Especially, considering it is more prevalent in females.
Dr., is there any evidence to back up this assertion?
You're a bit of a sociopath but, like all sociopaths, you're entertaining.
But with this information, doesn't it mean that men shouldn't be having excessive sex to avoid these risks?
Yep. In other words, plate at your own risk! ;)
Downvoted for agreeing, oh kay.
Everybody knows about STDs. If someone needs to be told that their risk of contracting these diseases increases with number of sexual partners, they're a fucking idiot. Men don't care about partner count because they're afraid of contracting something, and if you don't realize this you're clueless. Pointless post.
Doc here. Good post.
Let me highlight HPV-related cancer. Typically people under 50yo don't get cancer, but there is a rising epidemic of HPV related Head and neck cancer, cervical cancer, anal cancer, along with vulvar and vagina cancer. These are all caused by the HPV virus and take about 15-30 years of infection before causing the cancer, which means that these cancers are arising in 30-50year olds. These young patients ask me,"I don't smoke. How did I get cancer in my tonsil?" The answer is that you sucked someone's HPV infected dick or clit 20 years ago.
Sure, everyone doesn't get cancer when infected but it certainly sucks for those who do. Surgery, chemotherapy, and radiotherapy are not fun.
So as a guy who's eaten girls out I probably have HPV and will probably get cancer of this sort eventually? In other words I'm fucked.
No, the vast majority of people will defeat the virus with their immune system. But a few unlucky folks will get cancer.
Implying that she didn't choose ALL the others then (maybe) changed her mind about them too?
That sounds bad..
Jesus! That's really bad!
This post was worth reading just for that.
You're making these STD risks out to be a lot greater than they are. Yes, they exist. Yes, you have to apply the probabilities to make a risk assessment.
Although it's easier for women to contract STD's than men, your entire premise, if we accept it, would lead to the conclusion that men as well as women should ideally remain celibate until marriage.
Your point doesn't address "the past is the past". If a reformed slut with a 50+ body count doesn't have any STD's, then she doesn't have any STD's. "The past is in the past".
The biggest problem with trying to housewife a whore isn't that you're going to get an STD. The chance of you getting antibiotic resistant gonorrhea or developing oropharyngeal cancer because your beloved carries STD's from her days of whoring it up in college is fairly small. If she doesn't have any STD's, it's zero. Herpes is harder to spread than you think, and at the end of the day it's a skin condition. The biggest risk is the increased risk of marital infidelity. This will destroy your world. This is by far the biggest problem with reformed sluts.
Not so fast there. You aren't considering the future sexual promiscuity potential of a girl with a dick addiction. That is rather generous of you to presume that Miss 50 cocks will forever be satisfied with one when her past history suggests otherwise. STI risk equals exposures times probability of transmission. Unless of course you are only talking ONS, then you are just rolling the dice regardless.
Sure, that's a risk.
A far more important risk presented by past promiscuity, in terms of the likelihood and severity of impact, is the dissolution of your marriage and family and the risk of unwittingly raising another man's child as your own.
If STD's did not exist, marrying a slut would still be 99% of the bad decision that it is today. STD's are a minor concern compared with the dissolution or adulteration of your family.
He couldn't say it that way. This would truthfully express what the real concerns are. The way the doc does it is just a loose medical justification. He believes it though. He's a doc all he does is see sick people the medical concerns will be much more real to him. He writes his post as if he is arrogantly berating some idiot blue pill fuck.
^ This is where it gets complicated. Their very bodies become a concern to us. What she does with her body affects you. Also the docs point but with concern to health not the spread of genes. Which is why I think people freak out about abortions and other female contraceptive. This rabbit whole just goes deeper. Where does the line lay when I want to affect change on the people around me so it best reflects a world I want to live in. Do I have that right in any sense or are we all just kinda along from the ride while we are all weighing in and expressing ourselves thus giving rise to the culture at the time. I dunno this gives me something to think about.
All of this makes an assumption we all want a wife, or someone that will be monogamous enough for me to have a child with her and I know its mine.
Why is it assumed that following my base desires would lead me to the most happiness anyways. We decide more and more everyday what it is to be human. I want to have kids, I'd like to have a wife but is that realistic and would this really be best for me. Kids leave and shit happens. Maybe I don't see eye to eye on what is defined as self improvement and the general goals of TRP members. Wife and kids doesn't sound like self improvement, sounds like a whole other project. G
Good post overall... but I think you can't say that a woman is completely worthless after being a whore. There are certain criteria for her to redeem herself:
Confirmed no STDs
Confirmed cleanse + 6 months no sex
Then confirmed 5+ years no cheating and stable 1-year+ relationships, or no sex after that.
I think something like that is enough to show that she as truly changed her ways. Sure her SMV would decrease with age, but she has a chance to redeem herself. For a CC rider, this is probably harder than quitting heroin + nicotine + alcohol. So if a woman is dedicated enough to go through with this, I'm sold.
All wise moves to lower risk as much as possible. I want to reiterate that screening tests are not foolproof (different tests have varying levels of something called sensitivity/specificity, which basically refers to the possibility of false negatives/positives), and that furthermore, for some diseases, depending on gender (for example, HPV in males), they do not exist. In females, they can lay dormant over many years before causing the cervical changes that make the Pap positive. Until they do, she will still get negative screening tests, but your partner is still infected and can still pass it on to you.
Definitely. It's about rationally analyzing your risks vs. rewards than dogmatic rules.
This shit scares me. I'm 24 and slept with like 16-18 different woman. I've worn a condom maybe 3 times my entire life.
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What kind of stuff coukd I have that has no symptoms?
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And unless the man is an intravenous drug user and enjoys receiving anal sex from men then his chances are pretty damn low.
Take the porn star route;
Get yourself tested every 28 days.
It's what I did and I'm as clean as a large, hairy whistle.
It's like an oil change; A racecar needs them more frequently than a minivan.
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I still call it a mark of responsibility as a sexually active man.
If I was worried about catching something from a woman, I'd stop fucking altogether.
My views on condoms are highly unpopular on Reddit, so I'll keep them to myself.
I found out that standard STI testing in Canada doesn't cover herpes, and the docs won't run the tests because of expense.
Figure other folks should know.
just say you slept with someone who had it and they will.
Nice post. I have a few questions for you:
Seems to me, we all know the risks. The more you plate, the higher your odds of contracting something are. But condoms wipe out a lot of the risks, even though they are not fun to use.
Guys here keep saying they wouldn't fuck sluts with high partner counts, but there is really no way to know this...so we all take some chances, or we go celibate.
No, because it won't give me any reliable information to base my decisions off of. If you are thinking about marrying/LTRing someone, you will become their next of kin. If she allows it, you can request access to medical records, which can be reasonable since you're going to be the default substitute decision maker for her health care decisions if she's incapable. Age of first pap basically gives you a good idea of onset of sexual activity, as well STI testing records/frequency. Even if she says no, gauging her reaction to that request will tell you more than simply asking about her past ever could. Obviously, medical records are confidential, even from spouses or spouses to be, so there's really no guarantee. Again, however, one of the pieces of info will be her reaction when you are having a serious discussion about sexual health/medical conditions before settling down.
Yes.
No, and again, thats a product of me, my profession, and my personal tastes. Not all choices in life are equal, this applies to both men and women. I've seen plenty of idiot guys wait weeks or months before finally getting that penile discharge checked out, or that bleeding lesion on their dick head that turned out to be squamous cell carcinoma (yet another potential complication of HPV). My original post focused on women only because that's where the mantra of partner counts don't matter seem to be emanating from at the moment. If you're a guy and you neglect to screen/vet your partners, you alone bear responsibility for that failure. My advice would be, if you CHOOSE to make it your sexual goal to spin as many plates as possible, do your utmost to vet to whatever level you feel you can tolerate. This includes diligent condom use, regular screening, insisting on partner screening, limiting ONS, and if able, having open discussions with partner about sexual health hx, +/- medical records. The "reward" so to speak is sex with many partners of uncertain histories. The consequences will be in proportion to the risk.
Thanks. And I'll bet 99.9% of guys here forgo #3, except maybe condom use. But I'm guessing most guys are trying to be "alpha" and inflate their own body count, and see this type of discussion before sex as something that would make her run. Of course...I agree with you and this increases STD chances....as does plating, even if you swear you will use condoms every time.
Best post I have read in a while.
It's funny because the main conclusion women would take away from this post isn't the health stuff, but that doctors won't want to BB them if their dick-debt is too high. Since the doctor is one of the cardinal BB fantasies, any suggestion that women are becoming less attractive to doctorsas a class might meet with a genuine change in female practical decision making.
I have a theory, which I'm hoping you all can help me reason out via logic.
I've been trying to estimate the median number of partners for 25 year old American woman. My thought is that people have been holding on to some legacy assumptions and also have trouble accepting the basic math and therefore severely underestimate the quantity.
My thoughts:
Within the upper 50 percentile of women (5's and above) I think the vast majority become sexually active in the late teens.
After high school, social activity greatly increases to multiple times a week for nearly every week of the year.
After the first casual sexual encounter, the rate of casual sexual encounters greatly increases and very soon approaches weekly.
In their 20's, women don't even like using the term "dating" anymore, because I think it insinuates the need for monogamy or responsibility of some sort. How many times have you asked a woman in her 20's if she is dating a certain man and she responds with "no, she is only seeing him", or some other unspecific response to diminish the label of the relationship?
So, some basic math:
52 weeks in a year. Round that out to 50. Going out or socializing about 3 times a week on average ( I think it is a conservative estimate) Fully active lifestyle from age 19 to 25 = 6 years 50 x 3 x 6 = 900 opportunities
Second calculation: age 18 to age 28 = 10 years so 50 x 3 x 10 = 1500 opportunities
Then simply estimate how many times out of how many you think they went home with someone. How low could it be? 1/10? I think it is higher.
I don't think these are unrealistic numbers. The reason I think so is that about a decade ago, my 31 year old best friend married his 29 year old girlfriend. I hung out with her and her friends for the entire 2 years they dated. Her best friend since high school "went out somewhere or did something 6 or 7 days a week". Even my buddy's wife admitted openly that there was a decade there that her and her friends went out every single day of the week to a bar or club. She openly said she only stopped because of meeting my buddy.
Then I looked at her friends behavior. Nearly every single time we went out for those couple of years (about 2 or 3 times a week), she would end up leaving with some guy she just met or aggressively hit on me. I lost track of how many times I heard my buddy's wife talking on the phone with her friends about the guy she met last night.
Then I looked at my buddy's wife. For those couple of years, we constantly ran into guys that she had at some point in the past dated. My buddy would have to constantly alpha dog to get guys to fuck off. She would also frequently get plastered drunk, even after they got engaged.
So if we could have a discussion, as scientific as possible with hard evidence lacking, about actual real numbers, I think we would all benefit from it. What type of anecdotal evidence have you all observed? Why are we still talking about "high partner counts" of 30, when the evidence I have seen is that the median number is much much higher than that?
I know barely mildly attractive women below 30 that during a period of less than a year had over 5 different guys they fucked; and these were the educated women with professional jobs in my office. The majority of women in my office go out multiple times a week all throughout their 20s and 30s and "date" constantly.
Someone with more knowledge and information than me please enlighten me as to why we still assume that partner counts for women range from 10 to 30 on average. Do any of you even know a single woman anywhere above 25 that is honestly and realistically below a count of 30? If a count of 30 is the bottom, what is the median?
And people thought I was odd for being celibate!
TLDR
"Former" sluts:
High risk of infertility due to asymptomatic STDs in the woman.
High risk of HPV and associated cancers in futures partners.
High risk of genital herpes.
Will lie to beta-bucks partner about her sexual history even at the cost of his health.
and much more...
Think Herpes is bad, try getting Gonorrhea in your eye ;-)
Something something jolly something
Can I get a citation for the Gonorrhea statistics? I don't mean to call you out but I haven't found anywhere that says it's the second most common disease in the US.
Sure.
http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats07/trends.htm, 2007 Surveillance Report; data from the annual reports through to 2012 is the same with gonorrhea #2 and chlamydia taking #1 spot each time.
And I don't view fact checking as "calling out", I encourage it.
Thanks and yeah some people take asking for a citation the wrong way.
Again, dude...did you not read my last reply? You are shadow-banned by Reddit admins. I'm trying to help you out. This is the last post I will manually approve. Make a new account.
Didn't even know what a shadow-ban was. Thanks for the heads up
Well if that's not the most horrifying thing I've ever heard/read.......
Definitely a good reiteration on the importance of good sex education!
unfortunately, Common Core's sex education in the US isn't going to be good, it's going to be the "flow of PC bullshit" OP warned of
"Use condoms, try IUDs, be honest about sexual histories with your partner and doctor" would be a solid start!
"don't sleep around" would be a better start
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Were they M.D.'s our did they have PhD's in something truly worthwhile like "Women's Studies"?
Hot girls have high partner counts because alpha studs chase them and AWALT.
Who wants to fuck the girls the other alphas don't want?
I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to write this. These kinds of posts reinforce the truth that this community ultimately is about dudes looking out for each other. It may be under the guise of intense masculinity but the fact is this wouldn't exist like laws wouldn't exist, without good men. Just wanted to say you a good man. You may save some poor guys dick who was thinking about taking Mary Jane Rottencrotch and her three mismatched welfare children to the mall.
From another medical piller, best post I've seen on here in quite a while.
I don't need a medical reason. A woman with a high partner count is instinctively unappealing to me.
I have no interest in rationalising it (even though it's obvious past behaviour correlates with future behaviour), I am simply not interested.
This is a weak argument because a lot of high milage whores are cleaner than your average, well, American woman. Does that make whores marriage material? I mean, she was careful!
The soft science fails because the data is never statistically significant. And those of us worth real world experience know that most of today's unicorns are tomorrow's frustrated horny housewives.
I just love studying healthcare for the singular reason that people are stupid and watching them deal with the consequences of past behavior is hilarious. Women will shirk responsibility and blame, but there is nothing quite as satisfying when they have something they can't deflect.
Haha! It's rare to see someone in the medical profession on TRP. I'm a medical student (year 2) and the fact that someone like you exists inspires and reassures me of the future -- that there's a faint possibility I'll be able to manage academics, lifting, relationships, while at the same time be able to work on all my self-improvement goals.
I entered med school with a promise to myself that I will have a life and that I will continue self-improvement. You are a testament of who I wish to become in the future.
I'd love to hear your insights on how you survived med school while juggling between all your interests. PM me or just reply here.
What is your advice for heterosexual men? What advice about sexual partners and activity are you sharing?
This should be cross posted to TwoX....but it needs to be tweaked a bit....still doubt it would be well received.
That makes me want to have a doctor as a friend. Hearing those things on a regular basis from someone you can freely shoot the shit with must be hilarious.
Edit: grammar
LOL @ the guys in here complaining about STDs when half the other posts are talking about pounding girls up the ass. Don't want to get sick then you motherfuckers shouldn't condone sick behavior.
Can I ask you to comment on "HS" hidradenitis suppurativa? I knew someone that had a bad case in the genital area.
Not an STI, HS is more a recurrent inflammatory response to chronically obstructed follicles in certain areas, groin/anal regions included, but risk factors include being fat and a smoker.
Fuck Yeah, I want you as my doctor!
I love this post. You're the man doc
So much for "you can't wear it out"...
Good info, that in my opinion doesn't get discussed often enough in here. Do you have any book recommendations in this topic?
Hey OP, I think you have a pretty unique and fresh perspective. Maybe you should consider a blog and a book.
What I find most interesting is the disconnect between personal politics and biology. It's like they're covering their ears and pretending reality doesn't exist.
Sex can lead to STDs. Alert the media!
Good post, but I had to downvote because of the humblebrag. Leave that tactic for the women.
I dunno. I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Barrier protection >>> partner count in regards to STIs except for HPV and HSV, and even then condoms help, and what with one of the HPV vaccines being standard of care, and the plethora of cheap generic HSV meds, I'd argue partner count is pretty insignificant from a medical perspective outside of immunocompromised patients. From a predicting future behaviors, or even a psych, perspective, I agree partner count is a very important predictor. I personally rarely ask about partner count but always ask about barrier protection when getting a sexual history.
There was a link to a scientific study showing DNA from men is integrated into a woman's DNA when she has unprotected sex with him. Anyone have that link?