319,516 posts
319,516 posts
832 upvotes
by 0xdada on /r/TheRedPill
10 April 2015 09:10 PM UTC
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| Title | Reddit CEO bans salary negotiations because women are poor negotiators. |
|---|---|
| Author | 0xdada |
| Upvotes | 832 |
| Date | 10 April 2015 09:10 PM UTC (4 years ago) |
| Subreddit | TheRedPill |
| Link | https://theredarchive.com/post/31237 |
| Original Link | https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/325wpe/reddit_ceo_bans_salary_negotiations_because_women/ |
© TheRedArchive 2020. All rights reserved.
Women arent poor negotiators. The mere thought is silly, they spend half of every day negotiating so they will be given things others have to earn. They fair out badly in salary negotiations because they want equal pay for less work. That just doesnt work when their accomplishments get listed and a value is placed on those accomplishments.
Exactly. Its not that they're bad at negotiating, its that they are bad at negotiating when they bring nothing of value to negotiate with.
Because in the workforce, their pussy isn't as powerful. It's muffled.
A cunning pun.
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Exactly. That's the KEY.
Women are great at manipulation, and much less great at directness. Salary negotiations are directness. Many of them are just not comfortable with, or good at, the kind of direct confrontation involved, so they avoid it. By manipulation they also avoid being fired and are pretty good at being promoted, but demanding more pay is a direct confrontation thing -- that's the part they don't like.
Nature has not destined them, as the weaker sex, to be dependent on strength but on cunning; this is why they are instinctively crafty, and have an ineradicable tendency to lie
https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/essays/chapter5.html
Ya! It's the same with the Jews too! Just replace the word sex with race! Fucking women Jews!
And this reminds us of the redpill truth: you gotta contradict the woman and shove her shit tests right back up her ass (with a smile of course.) Otherwise she'll needle you to death.
Only when she feels like a loser will she stop it.
Negotiation is based on roughly too components: open practical discussion centered on solving a common problem, and a game of chicken (aka both need to consider that the other party may leave the table).
The risk of leaving the table "irrationally" is directly proportional with testosterone, and the interesting thing is that apparently people can guess if they're dealing with a high or low T person, and adjust their offers accordingly. Make a lowball offer to a high T person and there is a fair chance of him getting pissed. Do the same thing to a low T, and worst that can happen is that he'll say "no" (but you still gain some because of anchoring effects).
I'm too lazy to look for sources right now, but all of the above is backed by solid research.
That's correct, T plays a major part in a persons ability to ignore fear and be assertive. While men obviously have more T on average than women, but both sexes have T of various degrees, which is why you can have assertiveness or non-assertiveness in people of both sexes.
But look at Pao's background on Wikipedia
Her father, Young-Ping Pao, was a professor at New York University's Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
Pao graduated from Princeton University with a bachelor's degree in Electrical Engineering in 1991, Harvard Law School with a juris doctor in 1994,[2] and Harvard Business School with an MBA in 1998
Pao essentially won the genetic lottery and has a high IQ. If her IQ was closer to average, she probably wouldn't have gone to Ivy schools.
The irony is that people are claiming it's unfair that people are more assertive (because they were genetically born with higher T) but no ones claiming unfairness for the people who weren't born with high IQ's.
Oh yes. People talking about discrimination are very very careful not to talk about factors which actually discriminate, like wealth or IQ. That would mean having to tackle real problems, instead of just using identity politics for profit.
However, women get loads of special benefits for being women. Hot women get extreme benefits.
Therefore, in the interest of consistency, Pao should ban hot women. (Not that it would likely result in a very large workforce reduction at Reddit)
It's only fair.
Imagine you are there for a job interview: "our offer is $50,000" do you want the person who takes it desperately without question, or the person willing to walk away from it to find a better sum elsewhere? That's a surefire way to ensure you only hire those who you overvalue.
Ultimately, this won't last long once other companies start negotiating with Reddit employees. The beautiful thing about horrible policies is they self implode without anyone working against it.
That would work in a free market.
Modern America isn't a free market.
She will underpay workers who will leave, while offering potential employees a pittance. Then when she can't get any staff, she will run to the government and get 1000s of Indians on working visas.
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Every time I see yet another article about corporations complaining that there is a lack of talent to hire, I make sure to remember the unspoken "...at the wages we are willing to pay."
It's a good way to figure out which companies are probably shit to work for.
I'm a year into updating my qualifications to a Comms / EE engineer and I am already getting companies courting me.
Apparently we are rare as hens teeth right now.
Uh, that's not "rare as hen's teeth", that's just what used to be normal demand for employees in the USA most of the time until 1980's about.
interesting as I graduate in CS(With a finance degree already on top) with top grade in Canada in dec14 and now working for a bank and this was not my experience at all; even when I search new opportunity since I started working.
Rich people want slaves not employees.
Poor people want free money not jobs. Greed is a universal human trait, the only difference between the rich and the poor is effectiveness.
Step 3 - You get what you pay for
This is especially true in anything software related. I know of companies that use the tactic of being unwilling to pay fair market wages in order to complain to the government and import Indians. It turns out, when you pay someone with no education 8 bucks an hour to do a job that would normally require a graduate degree you're going to get undeployable software. I have never heard of a company being happy with imported workers.
Well, considering the Bay area is chock-full of high tech companies and the tech industry is nowhere near as big as you think - lots of people know each other and bounce around employers all the time - I imagine Step 3 is "watch all your good staff walk".
Corporations tried outsourcing tech jobs to india already and they found out its a bad idea.
Hello sir how are you today my name is Vince and I work for Windows we recently noticed you computer was infected online
Hahahahaha oh god this is brilliant.
Its not quite so funny when your mentally declining parent almost bought it before thinking to run it by their son, the family computer expert. It actually scared me a little because he really should know better by himself.
it's literally a call I KEEP GETTING
STOP IT......
STOMACH HURTS....
You are correct. Many companies got quite frustrated with India. So now we find them engineers in Southeast Asia and Eastern Europe. Quality in SEA is still unpredictable, but Romanians and Bulgarians are highly skilled and reliable. They are true geeks who grew up hacking, not Indian "PHP School" drones.
Outsourcing is not a "bad idea" that will go away.
That's true, but while labor cost savings are an important metric, there's a lot to be said for clear communication. In large organizations, unclear communication can easily cost millions. Having someone that is somewhat similar to your culture is important. In some cases, SEA will suffice, in others, EE will, and in some you have to just purchase native engineers.
There's a general overall shortage for CS engineers though, so just about anyone who has skills is getting hired.
Yet corporations keep doing it.
New corporations, or corporations who don't give a shit about the quality of their work or the satisfaction of their customers. Fast food of the software world. Sure, they'll get it done cheap; but it won't be good for you.
Bullshit. Any developer worth their salt can get offers almost anywhere in the country right now. Of course they will have to compete. You somehow think reddit is the market maker Google or Microsoft is? It's a tiny company. If they pay poorly they'll get very poor talent.
It doesnt work that way, there is a shortage of talent and you have to shell out good salaries to attract the best engineers (which are not replaceable btw).
her company will suffer at the hands of the poor policy then with poorer labor pools. Sure SOME people will work for lower rates but are they the ones you want to hire?
If you think about it, international borders are ultimately an arbitrary barrier against free trade...
Wait! So what's wrong with getting Indians here?
Are you saying that below average American deserves job more than above average Indian? If so, I have to say that you're bigot and racist (not technically racist, but discriminatory based on national origin).
I'm an Indian here working in IT industry at salary most Americans would not accept. Based on the number of upvotes you're getting, does it mean that I am unwelcome on this subreddit?
It's not just that
http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/06/technology/ellen-pao-reddit-diversity/
So, if you are not an active feminist, you are not allowed to work in reddit. Yes you heard that right, the woman who sued KP for discrimination is discriminating candidates based on their personal beliefs. Did you hear about any candidates suing reddit for discrimination?
She has already changed the policies about posting pics since february. Because protecting the honour of sluts is apparently a priority in reddit.
I blame the idiots who put her in that position. Now they can't remove her because she will cry discrimination.
Dont be surprised if reddit is bought by jezebel next year. There are other forums, no need to lament on anything.
You can discriminate against people, as long as they're unpopular. Don't get it twisted - in spite of her recent failed lawsuit and seeming cloud of incompetence that follows her, Ellen Pao is fluent enough in powertalk to understand that "discrimination" doesn't count when it happens to people that don't belong to the approved categories.
why the eff would you hire someone as CEO who cares more about being a SJW than about turning a profit?
This ain't like Google, an immensely profitable company where the genius inventors are steering the direction of the company towards humanitarian causes.
This is just some random bitch hijacking a company for which she had no role in creating its success.
I stopped thinking about top large corporations in the media space as being setup to make a profit. I figure that the media is in place to change societies along the lines of the Zbigniew Brzezinski time periods. So it exists to subvert and steer cultural evolution. Under our system (basically after the show 60 minutes) it became possible to generate a profit while doing this and so they did. People began to erroneously believe that the media is a business and only exists to generate profit and that when they were losing money that they were losing comprehensively. Now I figure that sometimes they feel a need to push society in a direction that is unpopular and they will spend their various forms of capital to make that change. If viewership and earnings go down then that is fine. They can always have another "investor" sweep in and save the corporation. When you figure in the ability to print money on the press and with trillion dollar taxation schemes and pork barrel projects then injecting $5 billion in a large news corporation to effect dramatic exploitative changes on society and devolving it into a culture is not a huge sacrifice.
I come from the /r/conspiracy scene and I've been studying the methods of control. In the Western case they are using women as a means of controlling men and many of the traps that effectively turn us into slaves have been built into in our relationships with women through the literal subversion of our society that has turned it into a sick and pathetic place full of weak spineless men. I'm wondering how many men are studying the Federal Reserve, international banking, etc are laying next to a person who will turn on them and initiate a process that allows the government to lock him down. Many people are waiting for tanks in the street and not the pussy in their bed. Its the Trojan Horse.
There is no counter for MGTOW which is what current society is steering all young men who are beta towards.
Not getting married is just the tip of the iceberg. When these men realize they can work less and enjoy life more without giving some bitch half of everything they own + years of alimony for a marriage that lasted a year... Yeah.
Their counter to MGTOW would be a very overt hard power dictatorship. IMO it looks like they have the power and have built the grid for that so I say its best to force their hand. I subscribe to the theory that they've long since consolidated the power and that the more overt police state is a proportional response to people waking up. If they had the full illusion going without resistance then why put it in our faces? So in many ways I'm celebrating the huge militaristic police build up as an evolution in our culture. Unfortunately I feel that it plays out over a time period that basically would suck up all of the time period where I will still have a solid head of hair and so I've bailed out.
I love this quote:
Thus, far and wide, they migrate either to the Goths or to the Bagaudae, or to other barbarians everywhere in power; yet they do not repent of having migrated. They prefer to live as freemen under an outward form of captivity, than as captives under the appearance of liberty. Therefore, the name of Roman citizens, at one time not only greatly valued, but dearly bought, is now repudiated and fled from, and it is almost considered not only base, but even deserving of abhorrence.
If you've never seen it, you should check out The Century of the Self
Yes, I've seen it and I agree its great. Its probably worth watching again. I think that I hadn't lived in the ex-USSR yet when I saw that and I just got done with two months in weird commie-capitalist land Shanghai. I'm sure that I'd get more out of it this time.
So much this.
The amount of money a site like Reddit could hope to make is a pittance compared to the fortunes of the global elite. It is vastly more valuable as a propaganda organ to promote the success of other interests.
Yep. Media companies are not out to make money. At least, not from the direct 'selling' of news. It's only necessary they have some eyes and prominence. They control the topics of debate. Reddit has already headed this way. The /r/politics subreddit basically died when you couldn't editorialize news headlines or point out the actual interesting piece in the article.
I think Journos like Matt Tabbi are rare. People like him get killed like Michael Hastings. If you know anything about the new project he was supposed to jump unto where he was supposed to have a lot of resources for actual news that turned out that the investor/boss would steer him away from his main promise. I think that entirely business was just to fuck with Matt and get him out of the picture for awhile.
Like how the only conservative TV network is like a fucking parody of conservativism?
Politically, for Republicans, conservatism is just a way to hand money over to corporations in return for political seats and future careers in modern-day America. As it was done in the past and will probably continue towards the near future.
Reddit is a user-contributed community, which claims it stands for freedom of speech and net neutrality (and its not even profitable of course). You do not bite the hand that feeds you by telling people what to think. Reddit is nothing without the users, forums on the internet have come and gone and will come again.
The most humorous part is that Reddit is a few moves away from being a serious multibillion dollar power house. Ellen was preoccupied with weazling her past employer out of a few million when she could have been becoming a legit billionaire the honorable way. Its unreal.
Get used to it. The takeover by incompetents is nearing critical mass. The sjw hiring games are a short sighted marketing ploy, which will ultimately fail due to it's hamster-greed synergies. Remember, mediocrity is the new standard of excellence.
If you aren't smart enough to claim to love diversity, you're out. No biggy.
Why anyone would answer negatively to either of those and expect the hiring process to go in a positive direction is beyond me...
I guess I'd like to know what it means to be "committed", though.
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This our future. The leftist singularity accelerates. Shits gonna get cray.
Declare your undying love for the party or be purged!
Left singularity: http://blog.jim.com/tag/left-singularity/
That Reddit seems to be leading the charge is quite disturbing, given the site's importance as a news and content aggregator.
That's actually more about creepshots and photos taken off facebook.
There's a difference between discrimination against someone because of what they say and discriminating against someone because of their biological sex.
So, for example, you can refuse to hire anyone who says "i am gay" or "i am muslim" and that is not discrimination? Courts would say otherwise...
This isn't stupidity or ignorance, it's business. It's a handjob to shareholders under the guise of gender equality, much like dove's "Beautiful vs Average" campaign or Always' "Like a girl" ad.
Pao doesn't give a shit about empowering anyone, she's using the movement to make more money. Is she a hypocrite? sure, but let's not get lost here, she's a businesswoman focused on her bottom line: monetary progress. Using a silly cause like gender equality is exactly what the movement deserves: to be mocked and taken advantage of.
Reminds me of what Seneca said about religion: "It's regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
Those of us who consider ourselves to be above the bullshit shouldn't even be mad at this, we should be impressed. We should be thinking up ways to take advantage of stupid feminists as well, just like Ellen Pao did.
Nice analysis. Best in thread in my opinion.
And you can be sure what she said is not what will play out. They won't let great talent walk away if he has an offer of 5k more from a rival. Those people taking this seriously are the greater fools.
Except you need to employ the right people with the right skills and talents to drive your business forward..
Talents are assets and you cannot put a price on valuable employees. Fixed starting salary will handicap you and only encourage mediocre recruits, ultimately leading to business failure..
If it is a guise, it's utterly stupid. Your workforce is your engine. If you don't maintain it or feed it cheap crap, what do you think is going to happen?
You've missed the point, she's not going to be around for long enough to be held responsible for the repercussions, just enough to brag about the profits.
She's going to say "Look how much money I saved!" put it on her resume, and be CEO somewhere else by the time reddit falls apart because she's staffed it with shittily paid feminists.
Some months ago she forced everyone to go to SF or quit and I bet that now she gets a free pass to hire all kinds of feminist ideologues. I bet that she could convince them all that low pay is fine because of the superb feminist culture that they are buying into and how they are changing the world. I wouldn't be surprised if a chick would be willing to take a pay cut of $20k a year to be puffed up with non-stop "go feminism" mantra. She could be working elsewhere but at Reddit under Chairmen Pao she can change the world. Ironically taking less pay (in a corporation) to be empowered feminists.
So she moved all her software engineers to the most expensive place on the planet to hire software engineers. Brilliant.
Yeah on a good day there appears to some liberal hipster bubble in San Francisco. I'm from an hour North of there and I have a CS degree and I said meh to that place and expense wise I really went the opposite direction to Ukraine. I just programmed all night and I'm thinking about hitting up a massage but I want the girls to get proper sleep first.
[edit] After living in Nicaragua for a year and in other parts of Central America for another half year I was bar hopping in San Francisco and I became majorly depressed being out there. It seemed incredibly fake and I was very alienated. There is no way that I'm going to be able to man up and take the shit tests and drill into the pussy in that frame of mind. The environment made me fucking depressed. I mean fuck I'd rather drink with some random Mexican construction workers at the beach on 4pm then with my fancy Bay Area people any day. I can go either way to prefer the laid back could-give-a-fuck si manana culture of Central America or the stoic respectful and dry (but wet in two ways) Ukrainian thing. In Ukraine I don't have to fake smile please people and its extremely nice once you get used to it.
This man gets the corporate world. Where long term productivity of the company is the least of anyone's concern.
I know this isnt the sub to say it, But happy cakeday.
Finally someone who gets it. Pao doesn't give a fuck about feminism or women's equality, she cares about two things: money and power. That's what her lawsuit was about, and that's what this is about. It has nothing to do with the differences between men and women, it has to do with human greed.
Yeup. That ugly ass face says it all.
Yep. It's a mating of predatory capitalism and the social justice movement. Her husband is also a litigious parasite.
yes, she (like feminism generally) is hardest on the women. She threw every other woman at Kleiner under the bus that she could -- Mary Meeker was too strong for that so she just avoided Meeker.
Women are naturally attracted to men (even though they don't mind screwing them over) and naturally hate other women. So it's fun to play these games as a guy even if you don't want to take the risk of trying for or having sex.
Show me one "professional feminist" who doesn't do that. And that's the nicest irony of feminism: their elites milking the masses (SJWs, battered women etc.) and doing so smoothly they'll never realize. The moment the parasites are seen for what they are they'll be dealt with by women (maybe by proxy).
I'm mad because she's so transparent. At least don't insult people's intelligence.
Yep, solid post, nailed it.
Saved your post --- that quote is awesome.
But . . . but . . . I thought they were our equals!?!?! This woman obviously has excellent negotiation skills, or else how the hell did she become a CEO in the first place? What a crock of shit.
My guess from reading the stories about how she got her last job is that she negotiated on her knees making excellent use of her mouth.
Shadowban on /u/Kill_Your_Ego in 3... 2.. 1...
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You mean reddit admins, I think.
She is acting as interim CEO after the previous CEO resigned. She did not earn that position. She will eventually be replaced (and then she will sue for discrimination, of course).
shes elaine as j peterman president
would not be surpised if she ends up as CEO.
who the fuck would want to be bragged threw the courts?!
I read this as "women are bad at something, they shouldn't be expected to get better, we should lower the bar."
She also interviews them looking for the "right attitude" = maximum BP
Also, heads up, people were shadow banned for discussing Pao
Hm, wonder if I am shadow banned ... I was pretty direct about her.
That's stupid. Women have been fucking their way to the top since time began. So what if they're bad negotiators, a well placed blow job is a tactical advantage that serves them well.
This is perhaps the purpose. To take away any asymmetrical advantage of men while jealously guarding and strategically increasing those of women.
But given the number of women at Kleiner she threw under the bus, for the promotion of only one female's career (her own), I don't believe she cares about other women any more than other "feminists" do.
Hilarious b/c she's saying women are intellectually inferior in one respect, negotiation. I thought women were the superior communicators? Negotiation is a type of communication...
The real reason for this is lower salaries. "Not negotiating" is, itself, a form of negotiation.
That's a great way to scare off top talent in this industry.
By that logic she should also ban driving, peeing while standing up, any task involving spatial reasoning, and not clogging the toilet with tampons. All toilets must be clogged with tampons regardless of which restroom they are in. Equality.
I think there is a small (also ridiculous) movement to ban peeing while standing. I'll have to find the article, but it was some super feminist, patriarchy thing.
Edit: Found it
When I was a kid, my mom tried to make a new rule that I had to sit down to pee. Apparently there was a dribble or two on the seat one too many times (I was little, cut me some slack) and she'd had enough. Beta Dad went along with it, said he would do the same thing.
I ignored her and continued to pee standing up. Even as a young boy I knew that was some dumb girly bullshit and there was no way I was going along with it.
Sounds like a reason to ceran wrap the toilet seat
And that's why she is temporary CEO..
Out of all of this, this is what I don't understand. Why does Reddit have a CEO? It's a fucking website, not a fortune 500 company. 4chan doesn't have a CEO, just a bunch of volunteer moderators who have way too much time on their hands. What exactly does Reddit do that requires that type of business hierarchy
Reddit wants to become a legitimate profitable company and the business community looks for CEO's to lead companies to the golden ticket - an IPO.
But what does Reddit produce? You could argue it's somewhat a news company, but what the hell does Reddit offer to the world as a tangible product?
It offers livestock. Reddit's users are the company's livestock. They are traded for value and promise of exposure to advertising companies and other nonsense. All mostly to sell for advertising, web campaigns, activism, propaganda, etc.
Facebook is the same way. They regard their users as livestock, they get away with as much as the cattle will let them before bucking and breaking through the fence. If you keep the livestock corralled and docile, you can start "selling" them to any interested party. Just completely abusing them for profit. With Facebook, it's profit is mostly selling a user's information to a third party for intelligence purposes - metadata.
With reddit, the profit is mostly in social engineering, activism and creating "grass roots" advertisements that sell themselves. That's why celebrities love coming here for their "AMA", aka, to sell themselves. Then the reddit cattle do the rest.
traffic. Reddit has to find a way to have ads. Also, reddit can (and is) scoured for original content to distribute to other channels (fuck you buzzfeed!)
If you think something is for free, that just means you are the product.
Aside from TRP, Reddit seems to produce a lot of internet keyboard warriors & hamplanet grrrlpower types.
Still, those demographics do consume shit, so whatever half-assed talent that hasn't been snaked by other tech firms will figure out a revenue model. Advertising. Think Chef-Boyardee, Twinkies, tattoo removal services, etc. The bar is pretty low, really.
It produces content for free.
Reddit is significantly bigger than 4chan.
168 million uniques last month, versus 22 million for 4tran.
Advertisers will buy ads on reddit, but not 4tran, because the content is a lot more kosher for major brands.
Most importantly, though: Reddit is a company that was built from the start with the intention of making money. It has revenues and expenses. It's a business that is attempting to make a very large profit. Businesses need CEOs. Deleware C Corps are required to have a CEO by law.
Reddit apparently raised money at a $500 million valuation last year. Not that far from Fortune 500 territory. (http://venturebeat.com/2014/09/08/reddit-reportedly-raising-50m-at-a-500m-valuation/)
She might also just not want to ever give anyone a raise...
Reddit isn't exactly managed by business experts. They give 10% of advertising revenue away to charity each year (starting this year) despite the fact that they don't actually make a profit yet. Only some kind of bleeding heart dumbass could have possibly made that decision. At this rate, the only way they'll create some kind of return on investment for the owners is by selling out to Google or some other company.
lol. I really do wish this sub wasn't on reddit.
Eh, at the same time it's basically a free forum hosting service.
We cold go back to old www dotcoms but then that would mean TRP would constantly get DDOSd by betas
Honestly, I'm surprised that the liberal reddit management, (along with help from the hivemind user base), hasn't banned any and all subreddits and users that contravene the liberal/feminist/homosexual/socialist agenda.
How to start the brain drain 101
What? They can't negotiate? BUT THEY'RE STRONG, INDEPENDENT WOMEN?
strong independent womyn who don't need no negotiation
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I already did.
Top 500 Red Pill posts
Youre a Guardian Angel of the Manosphere.
It's a little hard with the Reddit API. I've written something that will let people download page after page including comments, and send it to PDF or Word document, etc though. Could easily add the ability to export to CSV too if people want that.
I'll be releasing it when it and a few other projects are 100% done. It's about 95% done though.
There's already contingencies in place in the event that this sub gets taken down
This is mind boggling. TRP will definitely be banned, someone start prepping.
Start writing the reddit eulogy. This boat is about to sink due to leadership incompetence.
I agree 100% we are going to get banned, we should get a proper website.
What the actual fuck? The literal reason being given is that men are better negotiators than women so now no one can negotiate. Fuck that shit. Negotiating skills are hella important to have in life. That kind of mentality where because things are hard you must make the world conform to you is dangerous. Nut up or shut the fuck up.
Apparently the studies also show that women who do try to negotiate end up getting penalized for it.
Men do too, its a dangerous game. And when you make more money after successfully negotiating you need to perform at that level or you get canned. It's not being "penalized" its being held to a standard of performance.
Maybe those women aren't really so desired, so if they turn down an offer (that's what negotiation really is) they are simply dropped. Now they scream foul.
Just because you eliminate haggling doesn't mean market rates don't still apply. It's just that now taking it or leaving it is what determines market rates.
It's only the difference between haggling for vegetables at a stall vs. buying them from a cash register at set price. In both scenarios, the seller has a lower limit for price and the buyer has an upper limit. In one scenario you arrive at some arbitrary point between those two values via haggling, and in the other you arrive at it via market forces and competition determining where buyers choose to shop.
In short, it's pretty much the exact same thing, it does eliminate a well studied source of wage gap, and you people are economically illiterate. Ellen Pao is wielding her tremendous power to influence society in the direction that she would like to see it go. What have YOU done today?
Except the economic illiterates are you and Ms Pao.
Let's accept her proposition that men are generally more comfortable negotiating higher salaries than women and this contributes to a meaningful gender wage gap.
Let's say for argument this is 10%
For every man who they want to employ (a salary offer comes from reddit, setting initial price offered for male labour) the average take it or leave it offer is 5% less than they would have negotiated for previously and for every woman 5% more.
Male rational actors are far more likely to reject the offer as competitors can offer at least 5% more whereas women are far more likely to accept the offer as its higher than what they could otherwise get elsewhere with lesser negotiation.
Fast forward 2 years and your company is staffed with a female majority and tanking. Why? You priced yourself out of all of the male labor that previously you were prepared to pay a premium for because you saw at least 10% more value from your male applicants.
Or
The wage gap is bullshit (as has been repeatedly shown) and Ellen Pao is making a career out of being a gender victim.
You're mostly correct yet you've missed the key point:
1) you can simply raise the starting price by 10% and the men come back.
2) You lose money from paying women more than you can get away with, but that's something Pao is okay with.
It's true you take a loss because you fail to profit from paying women less, but that's essentially altruistic (And potentially offset by good PR anyway).
No, the premise here is that Pao sees equal value from male or female labor, but men are superior negotiators, creating disparity. (We're not here to argue the premise, we're talking about whether Pao's actions align with her stated goals.)
The negotiation disparity has been repeatedly shown as well, and the wage gap has repeatedly been shown to be overblown, not completely non-existent.
Thus, it's possible for "claims about the wage gap are B.S. and for "claims about negotiation disparity are correct" to be true.
Bottom line:
If you believe genders to provide equal value and are profit motivated, you hire only women, and pay them less.
If you believe genders to be unequal and are profit motivated, you pay them differently and hire both.
If you believe genders to be equal and are altruistically motivated, you do what Pao does (but at the cost of flexibility - now if someone happens to come along who is worth more or less you are stuck with what you committed to.)
Except that altruism and economics are at opposite ends of the spectrum.
Increasing the mandated wage by 10% vs market for women means you're going to be swamped with female applicants/hires - sounds very 'equality driven'.
Incidentally it must be nice being able to play SJW with other people's money - kinda like her hubby playing successful hedge fund manager with his Ponzi scheme victims.
...No it won't, and you're really thrashing wildly in an effort to confirm your opinion at this point. If the wages are as high as men can earn anywhere else, then the same men will want those jobs too (and will be competing for those jobs). If the employer truly prefers men, this wage elevation will actually lead to fewer women hires.
...which is completely unrelated to the economic issue being disgussed, but I just want to point out that you write this within two sentences of "altruism and economics are at opposite ends of the spectrum." If this isn't hamstering I don't know what is.
Except this is a company run by Ellen Pao, implementing a pro-female salary negotiation policy. The price might be the same (although arguably a rising tide raises all boat so may have upward pressure on wages elsewhere where there's no gender neutral mandate) but the feminist agenda will still influence hiring decisions.
Come back when you've done at least high school microeconomics.
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https://hbr.org/2014/06/negotiating-is-not-the-same-as-haggling/
I followed your recommendation, and after reading the above I still don't really see the difference from an economic standpoint. It just seems like haggling with more delicate pretense at caring about fairness so you don't alienate the other party. What do you think the difference is?
Not cynical, realistic. For a red piller to accuse someone of cynicism is laughable. We at theredpill know that women behave submissively and will tend to lose in salary negotiations. The data supports it. If you assume that eliminating wage disparity is a worthy goal, then this is a reasonable way to do so. Way better than quotas and shit.
What would you suggest? (Let's assume we want to eliminate wage disparity, rather than accepting that men will tend to make more.)
This isn't helping women at all. If men can't push the average salary, women can't get more money, too. It's just a way to keep salaries down. And to keep talent out of your company.
I think it's only done to please the users and reddit will be sold soon. Until then everything will be done to maximize the target audience.
Look at Reddit, doesn't take mad programing genius to keep this going... technology wise it's basic (and effective) like a Volkswagen.
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The CEO of a corporation or company typically reports to the board of directors and is charged with maximizing the value of the entity. Since Reddit is primarily advertising supported, I don't think it Ms Pao wants to be in the business of censoring speech on reddit, but I could be in the wrong. Time will tell.
The more I hear about this woman the more I consider going back to digg.
Hold on, I'm confused. Isn't one of the anti feminist arguments the fact that there's unequal gender pay but there's the federal act that mandates equal pay. Unno if it's called the act of 1968, but it makes it illegal to offer different wages to different sexes.
I'm sure she'll pay a lot. They're not retarded. Pay high wages and give good benefits, nobody can say shit. Plausible deniability a la corporate.
God, this finally confirms my suspicion, that any pay discrepancy is clearly the result of being a poor negotiator. Their are pay differences at my work, and they are not at all along gender lines, generally the people whose work is valued AND if they make a demand, get higher pay. My dept (sales) is run by a woman. Not the first I've worked for, but definitely the first who eliminated ALL competition in form of contests, or even results posting. I am not seeing that increase production,and has resulted in some folks forgetting they are in sales, which will simply cost my boss more money, when she has to hire new. It feels like the Special Olympics in there, where everyone one's a champ, yay! Sheesh.
Yeah I shall not be guiding anyone until these terms change.
If a male CEO said this about women, those SJWs would scream SEXISM and demand for his resignation.
They're required to offer equal or better pay to women, but men can negotiate easier because actually they are higher value.
Now after Ellen's edict, men simply won't join the company. They'll negotiate by accepting someone else's better offer. In fact they won't even want to interview at Reddit with this ultra-feminist tool in charge.
Women say they're just as good. Reddit will soon be a test case, because it will be predominantly female before long.
Hey guys.
I never comment on TRP. In all honesty, i lurk TRP sometimes, and for the most part, don't agree with your views. I believe it's healthy to have a counter-culture to anything - to have negotiaton and work to compromise, but i think that TRP is generally one big circlejerk.
But i wanted to comment on this anyway, in the hope you guys read this. I believe this 3rd wave feminism culture is - in ideology - a good thing. In practice, however, many a times isn't. And this is a great example of how to abuse it.
How, can ever, in any way, removing negotiation be an empowerment to women? If you ask me, it's juist a guise to make more money. Nobody wins, everyone loses (except for her, of course). This is extortion, and she hides behind the values of a cultural movement to protect herself. If she truly believes equality is something important to her company, then she would've figured out something else than this. But she doesn't.
She's a fucking parasite, and i am glad this made the headlines, this will blow up in her face entirely. And best of all? Every feminist with a bit of a brain will agree that this is absolute BS. It also just proves furthermore, that American 'free-market capitalism' isn't. It's an oligopoly, and looks more like 21st century serfdom.
Bottom line: She's a bitch, a liar, and a leech on an ideology she looks like she's supporting, but actually isn't.
That's all.
This is not how feminism works. Even when something has been proven completely wrong, like the bullshit university rape scandals, they keep on keepin' on as if it hasn't.
I feel like Ive read this before
Funny thing is if a man did this, people would lose their shit.
She is basically dictatator of
north koreareddit.What can we do about this? I assume nothing as always?
This will likely work for Reddit but not in the open market. What attracts people to working for Reddit? Bacon, cats, stupid memes, etc. These omegas likely suck at negotiation anyways so they'll celebrate this policy as some kind of progress.
Reddit culture has no men- it has overgrown children. What separates your Reddit geek from a female? not much. They may as well be the same. We wouldn't want competition either because that would involve courage, guts, and possibly failing. We don't want children to feel that. Momma CEO will watch over them and make sure everyone behaves and everything is "fair".
She's right.
Source: my wife is underpaid, despite my prep
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1) We're both software engineers so I know the market well. My wife thinks most people in her company are underpaid. She has a Phd in CS and started out making only $70k. It's a contractor but with an academic slant, everyone there has a Phd.
2) She works the same as others.
3) She's average I would say.
4) She's the only female engineer.
5) Yes they like her.
6) Yes they gave her a good raise last year but she has a lot of ground to recover.
Basically, when it came time to negotiate I knew she wouldn't do a good job. I did some research by speaking to several recruiters, looking on relevant websites, etc first so I had an idea. I advised her not to give a number, just say that she expects to be paid competitively and let them propose a number. The owner asked her to give a number. She quickly caved and gave him her salary as a research assistant. They aren't comparable jobs but he agreed and that became her salary. I think they'll bring her up to market wages over a few years but that mistake easily cost us $50k or more.
Ah, man. That is quite the mistake. I'm curious how many people do that... If women have that happen this much, maybe this could explain the wage gap people are always talking about. (Let's say there is no corruption in those studies for a moment) I'm curious if that was a leading issue. You know?
I suspect it happens a lot. Women are often more timid than men. It's not that they're singling out women. I think they do it to everyone. They just don't do as well in negotiations in practice. It seems the Reddit CEO agrees and that's why she instituted this policy. I don't think it's a good solution, as it fixes one problem but creates new ones as others have noted.
Indeed, if as you say women are unable to obtain their market value in negotiation, then Reddit will hire them for cheap. But men, being able to come much closer to their market value in negotiation, will not accept Reddit's lowball offer and will stay at their current jobs or go elsewhere. So Reddit will manage to fill with underpaid females (Ellen doesn't like women, she never did a favor for one that we know of, so this is fine with her) and at least until the place implodes, there will be no resistance to her social engineering.
But the women will come to hate her and someone might out-bitch her. Will be entertaining to watch.
So she's hiring to create a more diverse work area but sacrificing some potential for talent and this is a bad thing because..?
Different companies have different priorities when hiring and it's not necessarily tied to work performance, get over yourselves.
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Shareholders generally only have one priority. Well two: expected return, and risk. I didn't notice "diversity" in that list.
Who says they won't get a return when a company gets good press for a diverse employee base?
I would see it as negative that they've taken their eye off the ball to hire racially. The "press" is full of PC types who don't think that way, but you can imagine how much I care about their PC opinions.
I think there are many like me. Such "good press" may not be a positive for the stock price or sales.