A conversation with my son

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June 6, 2015

Last week, I took my kids to Coney Island. As we walked along the boardwalk, we passed what Spongebob calls "Muscle Beach." My son asked me why anyone would want to work out where everyone could see.

"The same reason you see girls walking around in bikinis," I said. "They have nice bodies, and want to show them off."

He looked at me in shock. "But it's what's on the inside that matters. They shouldn't care about that."

I laughed. "Look," I said, "There's a huge difference in the world between the way people 'should' act, and the way they do. You have to deal with people they way they really are, not how you think they 'should' act, or who they claim to be."

He got that stubborn look on his face that said this went against everything school, TV, and movies had taught him. "But it's who you are inside that matters."

"Right," I said, "and being kind and honest are important. But I want you to seriously consider this: Even though some people have more inherent athletic ability than others, no guy is born with a Schwarzenegger body. It takes discipline to eat right and work out every day. It's not easy for anyone. It takes hard work to care about yourself, to make a real commitment to improve in any field, and see it through. Self respect comes after you do something to respect yourself for- not before. It goes for anything: writing, drawing, playing an instrument, coding, schoolwork, or your job. What you're seeing is the end result. If girls are attracted to them, it's because their bodies are showing them who they are on the inside: they're men with those qualities."

I know I'm fighting years of media indoctrination, but hopefully the seed will settle and grow.

Post Information
Title A conversation with my son
Author TonyLaRocca
Upvotes 814
Comments 216
Date 06 June 2015 04:23 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/33330
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/38t55a/a_conversation_with_my_son/
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[–]bakbakgoesherthroat390 points391 points  (45 children) | Copy

I wish my dad had to talked to me about this stuff. Good parental guidance can put you miles ahead of other people in your age group.

[–]boredepression174 points175 points  (36 children) | Copy

My dad never talked to me about girls except to try and embarase me when there was an intimate scene on tv :/ I am SO glad TRP exists.

[–]docbloodmoney134 points135 points  (32 children) | Copy

only thing my dad ever really told me about women is not to get married

[–]Endorsed ContributorMarsupian154 points155 points  (3 children) | Copy

At least thats some solid advice.

[–]MaxV3317 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's really the best advice you can give , it's one fiancial risk you can easily avoid.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points | Copy

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[–]King_Groovy28 points29 points  (22 children) | Copy

my father's advice about women was "The longer the legs, the bigger the snatch".... true story

[–]Strongbhoy20 points21 points  (4 children) | Copy

Apparently my Great-Gramps advice to my Grandfather was "make sure she has thick ankles, that means she's a good worker".

This is what happens when a weightlifter meets a cook in a mining camp back before the first world war.

[–]King_Groovy6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

yes, apparently you can't go wrong with a sturdy woman. I've heard that before, as well

[–]Endorsed ContributorObio157 points58 points  (0 children) | Copy

Gramps told me (true story) to always "Treat a whore like a lady and a lady like a whore"

...when I was 9.

He was awesome.

[–]josh3234-4 points-3 points  (0 children) | Copy

i like delicate girls with thin girly wrists


[–]keytoimmortality2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

My great grandpa to my dad (we're all short asses) - "it doesn't matter how tall you are, women are all the same height lying down"

[–]through_a_ways2 points3 points  (15 children) | Copy

Black people have longer legs, and black women are known for....yeah.

Asian people have longer torsos, and...yep.

[–]newmeforever1 point2 points  (13 children) | Copy

CAn you explain this for me? I guess i dont know the generalizations.

[–]through_a_ways2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy

Cold adapted people have shorter limbs and thicker bodies in order to conserve heat.

Hot adapted people have longer limbs and thinner bodies to radiate heat.

Africans are very hot adapted, Asians are very cold adapted. Europeans are in the middle, being descended from both hot and cold adapted populations.

As for the snatch thing, I have no idea if it's true.

[–]1oldredder18 points19 points  (8 children) | Copy

except this makes no sense because Nordic people are very tall, from the cold, and South American natives are all very short compared to most people in the world and it's hot as fuck there.

This is pseudo-science nonsense.

[–]OccamGywnn5612 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

But it gets very cold in south america

[–]1oldredder2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Only in the temperate zone closer to Antarctica. Much of the hot zones of South America are hot steaming jungle with very short native people.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Scandinavians are tall so they can see over the snow. I live among the Finns of North America. Toivo says so.

[–]through_a_ways1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

height =/= body proportions, and height has increased significantly through non-genetic means in the last century.

Europeans are descended in significant part from warm adapted peoples.

South American natives are descended from cold adapted peoples who experienced warm environments for a relatively short time of their existence (<10,000 years). Polynesians have the same body types as northeast Asians, despite living in fairly hot climates.


Incidentally, this is probably part of the reason why blacks have a stereotype of being bad at swimming. The longer one's torso is, the closer their center of gravity is to their torso. If your CG is located on your torso, the thrashing of your legs makes much less of a disturbance than it would if your CG was located at your legs/knees. Intuitively, having a longer torso is a bit like having a bodyboard.

[–]1oldredder-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy

Never heard any such stereotypes about blacks being bad at swimming.

[–]pbfryman-2 points-1 points  (2 children) | Copy

Black=hotdog down a hallway Asian=hotdog down a pen cap More or less

[–]AK27ABROAD0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I beg to differ! My direct experience with legs and snatches refutes that claim.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

My dad always said and still does to this day, "don't get married and don't reproduce." My mom always got mad and gets even more mad today. Now I just smile and say "still haven't." cue more wining from mother

When I was young I would think it was a joke because almost 100% of what he says is. Now I realize a lot of his "jokes" have a lot of truth to them.

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Your dad is trying to kill you. What kind of twisted freak would tell his children not to reproduce? You are genocoding yourself, congrats.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Not having kids seems like a smart move to me. But I lean a bit towards MGTOW that way.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Maybe one who realizes having kids aren't required for a happy life and doesn't want their son to feel obligated to have them like society tells him he must. Also someone who doesn't want their son to fuck up and have a kid before he is ready. Also someone who isn't still in caveman mode who's sole purpose in life is to pass on their "oh so special" genes. Give me a break dude...

[–]BakoMack1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

when I was 8 years old my dad told me " if you cut that thang off you will own a castle" echoes in my head from time to time

[–][deleted] 13 points13 points | Copy

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[–]laere3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

My dad is pretty good with girls, but he'd always try and set me up with fucking hideous women.

"She's cute why don't you want to go out with her?" (about a 5/10)

Fucking kidding me.

[–]Temptationn15 points16 points  (0 children) | Copy

Coming from being raised in a house full of women and still living with them. I can confirm I wish I had a male figure like this in my life. If I didn't find this sub in time I would've been doomed like my uncle is.

[–]Shabbatastic3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

All I got from my dad was "You've been blown out more times than a windsock".... Thanks dad !

[–]linenoize4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy

deleted What is this?

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedBigMan8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy

Look at the sidebar... theres RedPillParenting

[–]linenoize4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

deleted What is this?

[–]slavetothought0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is like exactly why we have the red pill

[–]1CowardlyPetrov68 points69 points  (79 children) | Copy

He got that stubborn look on his face that said this went against everything school, TV, and movies had taught him.

This sort of thing REALLY makes me want to get my future kids away from all this shit. I don't want to have to fix broken kids. I don't want to try to undo retarded conditioning. I want to help them reach their unhindered maximum potentials.

[–]XedtheRed8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy

We turned the tv off for 5 years, came home one day and it was gone, when we got it back we had rules, we were not allowed to use it on sundays. Because sundays were family days.

Dad hated television as it interrupted things that needed to be done around the farm. I have to say I am VERY glad he turned it off for me, I was 9 when he did it. To replace it he handed me a bag of of old tools and an old lawnmower engine.

When i fixed that he sat me in front of an old computer and gave me books on programming and computers...I thank him greatly for that.

He took me hunting and fishing, mom taught me how to cook and clean, taught me how to sew.

I learned more in that 5 year span than ANY edutainment could have taught me.

So one surefire way I know of to keep them from getting indoctrinated? Turn off the television...

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Haven't had a television for about 15 years. Totally agree, it is like a sewage pipe routed into your living room.

[–]homeliss2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

And having it disguised as something delicious, and beamed into your head, while making no effort, and being convinved it's fulfilling you.

[–]XedtheRed1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Oh i have one still, but for the most part it gathers dust and i may use it to sometimes watch top gear or play a game.

"Everything in moderation" was our marching song when i was younger.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy

Just avoid TV until they are 6 or 7... too many parents use the TV as a babysitter instead of nature / real life.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I got tv at 12 and it still fucked me up. I watched it all day long to "make up for the lsot time". NEVER get a tv, thats useless bs at best and beta conditoning at worst.

[–]Squeezymypenisy9 points10 points  (25 children) | Copy

All boys boarding school may do it. Either way you'll need some money

[–]PrimaxAUS1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

It also hits the main value of sending your kids to private school - they aren't in the same school as the rejects that are forced to go to school. One kid can disrupt a classroom, and invariably there are plenty of them who might. The worst in my school got kicked out, and I had a pretty sane high school education experience compared to the stories my friends who went to private school tell.

[–]newls1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Having been in both systems there's almost no difference in behaviour. The big difference was in availability of sporting facilities, and there were none of those compulsory politically correct classes.

Secondly there was a bit more of an entitlement trend in the state sector. Kids in private seemed to 'understand' how things work if that makes sense. Like that things of higher quality have higher value and that will be reflected in the price. This is just an anecdotal observation I made.

Passion for the subject is important for teachers but in STEM subjects some teachers were grossly under-qualified in the state school and I think this is a pervasive trend. Although the government seems to be aware of this problem and encouraging STEM graduates into state sector teaching. Having a degree gives a teacher a better perspective on how a subject really works.

[–]Endorsed ContributorTheRedPilsner0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

My sister (who is actually a pretty red pill woman) has decided to home school her children. Looking at all the bullshit that gets fed to kids these days in the public education system, I can't say that I disagree with her choice.

[–]Squeezymypenisy4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

True, thr problem id the social interaction. My mom tells me about the kids that come into my dads office and are homeschooled. She says a lot of them are kind of anti social. The one thing school can unofficially teach you is how to act around your peers. I agree with you about the bullshit.

[–]rpscrote0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

its why im convinced if I have children they will be going to private school

[–]Dark_Shroud16 points17 points  (4 children) | Copy

This is why private and charter schools are important.

Also why Obama and many Dems are against child vouchers to allow regular and poor people access to private schools. Plus teachers unions hate them.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy

Private and charter often means parochial, and my experience with parochial was not a good one. Two hours of bible study every day, one hour of math flash cards once a week, zero science. I already read at the college level so I had no problem there. The added bullshit of religion and outright racism and bigotry made my classmates and I into little bigots, which I was fortunate enough to see through.

The reason vouchers for those schools are opposed is simply the separation of church and state. You can't use public funds for religious advancement, promotion, or anything else. Republicans who understand our Constitution know that, it's the god on the brain types who want a theocracy that cant grasp it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Yup, I went to a private Christian school and they wasted 1 1/2 hours a day teaching us from a book of fiction which cut into our learning time for actual subjects that have real uses. Funny thing is every single one of my friends who graduated from that place are no longer Christian haha.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm the only atheist from my class. A friend of mine who is six years younger is as well. The rest of them are all jesus nutters as far as I can tell. Living in rural nowhere it's not surprising, they never leave the bubble of religion, they're always in the echo chamber.

[–]Dark_Shroud0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I had bible class, yet my school was always in the top ten of my state, usually the top five.

[–]laere2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is why I don't want kids anymore. I could do everything possible in the fucking world to prevent conditioning, but the kid being sheltered from other kids and everything else just feels wrong.

Fuck having kids anymore man. A part of me wants them (biological imperative and whatever) but I couldn't bring my kid into this dump ass world. Just. cannot. fucking. do. it.

[–]1oldredder3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

All the more reason I don't want to marry a modern/Western bitch just to have babies. If I say no but she insists, my choices are to let my child be indoctrinated because of her ignorance or stubbornness or to get divorce-raped.

That's a great choice, isn't it?

[–]Steve_Wiener-4 points-3 points  (5 children) | Copy

Yeah, if a father was involved with his kids life he shouldn't have let them become indoctrinated/influenced by movies/TV or school to begin with.

[–]TheJessee 18 points18 points [recovered] | Copy

I don't think that's fair against him to say such a thing, they hear all these things all the time at school/TV, it's impossible for him to always be there and tell him to be critical about it, he has to do that when his son brings it up, or provoke his critical thinking when engaging with him, as a parent he simply cannot prevent all the attempted indoctrination

[–]Steve_Wiener2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

I disagree. He could sit his son down and address it specifically. He could teach his son real values and RP knowledge. He could teach his son that most of what he sees on television/movies is fantasy and degenerate garbage. I actually think these things are your responsibility as a father and you should be involved in the psychological development of your child.

[–]jmottram086 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy


Obviously a conversation is better than none... but by this point the kid should have seen enough media with his father to know his view on it.

At the same time, an 8 year old should be in sports. There is a really easy tie-in with athletic ability there that could be made. "If its whats on the inside that counts, do you want (the fat kid on every team that sucks and is on the bench most games) to play on the team all of the time? Do you like losing games or winning them? "

[–]roteroktober3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

GWW mentioned this: school is like practice for real society. your kid will have to be able to pretend and put up appearances.

it has to learn that there are many people out to manpulate and feed him bullshit and it has to learn how to deal with it. how to figure out whats bullshit and whats not, when to speak up and when to shut up, when to be honest and when to lie your ass off.

it eventually has to become part of the system, its better to go into school knowing they are out to indoctrinate you a certain way and learn to handle that.

[–]Willyam2010-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss.

[–]fnordsnord 129 points129 points [recovered] | Copy

When talking to semi-rational women, I go with:

"All of those things make you a better HUMAN BEING. They make you a better spouse. But they don't make you more attractive to men. To attract men, start by not being fat, dress better, don't be fat, learn to wear makeup right, don't be fat, and smile."

[–]yaysmr77 points78 points  (4 children) | Copy

Its simply a form of signalling.

For guys, a built up body can signal things like:

I have an abundance of food (indicating some level of wealth) and enough free time to devote to fitness, yet I also have the discipline and drive to keep up this physique. I value my own health. I take pride in my appearance, and I am not the type to cut corners to succeed. I have a lot of energy and stamina. AND that he's aware that he is sending this message to others and takes care about cultivating a good image.

Since fitness is a costly signal that cannot be easily faked (you can only achieve a nice physique by true effort, no shortcuts allow you to replicate it) its a reliable one.

Conversely the fat lady waddling down the street is signalling that she has an abundance of food and yet cannot control her consumption, she lacks the drive to follow through on lengthy but rewarding projects, is okay with the health penalties (or deluding herself about them) AND that she is apparently fine with or oblivious to the signals she sends.

Talk about how you are 'on the inside' all you like, but your outside is the message you're transmitting to everyone 24/7.

Conscientious people care about the message they send out, so there's a meta-message being sent by having a good message: I know that you're watching, and I aim to impress you.

I always analogize it to somebody's personal vehicle(women seem to understand the importance of having a clean, tidy vehicle):

If you see somebody with a car that has scratches and big dents, making weird noises and spewing strange fluids and smoke, and visible trash piled inside you will make some judgments about them:

  • Possibly a bad/inattentive driver
  • Either too lazy or too poor to get repairs
  • Lacking in any mechanical repair skills
  • Something of a slob
  • not concerned about reliability and maintaining their things in good condition and, finally,
  • that they're okay telegraphing all of the above to the world. Is it because they DGaF, or are they too shortsighted to consider this?

Conclusion: This person should probably ride the bus, and you probably have no interest in getting to know them.

IF you can see why your car might send this message and how people might receive it, you should also get why your body sends even louder signals of the same type, based on how you take care of it.

They may be a really nice, intelligent, and entertaining person when you get to know them, but if they can't be arsed to maintain their car/body, they can't be surprised that others judge them on that. And if they're too oblivious to consider the message their car/body sends, that in itself is a signal.

[–]TheAceOfHearts3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

A lot of the people that I know that own very nice cars have gotten their windows busted and something stolen a multitude of times. I keep what most people would consider a bit of a run-down car from the outside (it has a few scratches and bumps from when I bought it) and have never had any kind of issues. I take it in for maintenance regularly and it runs without a hitch, even if it doesn't look as nice on the outside. Is it really worth spending the extra cash?

[–]yaysmr7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

You're using signaling for the opposite effect.

"This car has nothing in it worth stealing, this car is not worth the trouble to steal."

All else being equal the thief will pick the expensive looking car over the beater, even if you keep a bag full of cash in the trunk of your car, since they have to choose based on what they can see.

Is it really worth spending the extra cash?

All else being equal, the woman you're eying up will probably choose the guy with the nice car too. For similar reasons, but different intent.

If you are okay with that, then fine, whatevs. The car runs, it runs. The extra money to modify the signal you send makes a difference, but its up to you if you care about that difference.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Evolutionary scientists propose that exaggerated secondary sexual characteristics are cues of genes that increase offspring viability or reproductive success. In six studies the hypothesis that muscularity is one such cue is tested. As predicted, women rate muscular men as sexier, more physically dominant and volatile, and less committed to their mates than nonmuscular men. Consistent with the inverted-U hypothesis of masculine traits, men with moderate muscularity are rated most attractive. Consistent with past research on fitness cues, across two measures, women indicate that their most recent shortterm sex partners were more muscular than their other sex partners (ds = .36, .47). Across three studies, when controlling for other characteristics (e.g., body fat), muscular men rate their bodies as sexier to women (partial rs = .49-.62) and report more lifetime sex partners (partial rs = .20-.27), short-term partners (partial rs = .25-.28), and more affairs with mated women (partial r = .28).

D. A. Frederick and M. G. Haselton. Why is muscularity sexy? tests of the fitness indicator hypothesis. Personal and Social Psychology Bulletin, 33:1167–1183, 2007.

[–]fnordsnord 52 points52 points [recovered] | Copy

It's worth mentioning that I don't need to see a woman's hip bones or collar bone to find her attractive. You don't have to be skinny to be hot.

Just don't be FAT. You know: limit yourself to one chin.

[–]Squeezymypenisy5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

How about be fit? Or be toned?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I know in the US you'd be cutting out 70% of the population if you said no to obesity, but... it needs to be said no to.

[–]Endorsed ContributorMarsupian13 points14 points  (1 child) | Copy

Collar bones are pretty low requirement imo. If I cant see collar bones she's probably too fat for my taste. Hip bones are also pretty easy to spot. I dont need them sticking out but if they aren't visible she's probably too fat for me.

[–]through_a_ways5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, collar bones are very easy to see, even on most fat people.

[–]DestroyAllBarriers1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Haha definitely using a variation of this.

[–]philovivero9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy

I just looked around at all the women in the city*. I think he probably needs to mention not-being-fat a couple more times.

  • And fuck. I live in Los Angeles. Seriously, women. Don't be fat.

[–][deleted] -3 points-3 points | Copy

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[–]fnordsnord1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

You're right. But those don't make the same visual impression on me, just walking down the street or into a venue.

[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan48 points49 points  (3 children) | Copy

I think you spun the whole "their bodies are a good physical indicator of what's on the inside thing" very well.

Fucked up straight up talk won't work, but eh.

I guess this is why all the rich get their kids privately educated. Not just for prestige, but to avoid all the nonsense drilled into kids at state school.

[–]2Overkillengine1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

but to avoid all the nonsense drilled into kids at state school.

The very same nonsense they probably paid a tidy sum to have legislated.

[–]creepyguy1311 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy

Awesome, you don't understand how many of us wish we had somebody to tell us useful things like this growing up.

[–]Senior Contributor: "The Court Jester"GayLubeOil123 points124 points  (35 children) | Copy

I think the best way to teach your son about human nature isn't to tell him. If you tell him he will disagree becausr of the BF Skinner pstchological conditioning aka school and he will have his opinion while you will have yours. You have to show your son human nature.

If Mommy or Auntie say that its what on the inside that counts its time for a field trip. Its time for a field trip into their fucking purse.

Hey mommy if its what's on the inside that counts then why do you carry makeup everywhere you go? That right there is a learning opportunity.

There truly is a war for your son's mind. They want him to be a weak beta bitch boy. You as a father are completely outgunned and outnumbered. Don't fight fair you don't have that luxury.

Also for the love of God play chess with your son.

[–]trp_ta36 points37 points  (1 child) | Copy

Also for the love of God play chess with your son.

Yes. I would add poker as an essential game: teaches how to take calculated risks, how to read tells and personalities, how and when to bluff, and how to stay cool under pressure.

[–]throwawaymatthew7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

also teaches you to be analytical and objective with money.

[–]AlphaJesus22 points23 points  (18 children) | Copy

Chess? Why? I'm just curious. I value your insight highly and I would like to hear you elaborate more.

[–]Senior Contributor: "The Court Jester"GayLubeOil62 points63 points  (12 children) | Copy

Because it teaches patience, logical thinking, long term planning and is highly competitive. Its an amazing tool for developing a childs mind and it's a game so you won't faxe resistance.

[–]Endorsed ContributorMetalgear2222 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

can confirm. My dad showed me chess and my malleable mind ate up that shit up so fast at 8 years old that in 6 months I was beating everyone.

For science, my dad was a 1800+ rating player. The equivalent of your average senior high school chess club president.

[–]Senior Contributor: "The Court Jester"GayLubeOil1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Chessmaster grandmaster edition is a good chess program to try

[–]AlphaJesus1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks dude. I'll remember that.

[–]RedEmbrace7 points8 points  (6 children) | Copy

Playing isn't teaching though, nor playing is understanding. One might play the guitar for 10 years and merely know 4 chords. "Time spent being a player" doesn't equal to "actual skill level".

My point is to be able to draw "logical thinking and long term planning" components from playing chess you have to be a decent player to start with.

[–]jmottram0827 points28 points  (3 children) | Copy

My point is to be able to draw "logical thinking and long term planning" components from playing chess you have to be a decent player to start with.

And to be a decent player, you have to start playing.

Start playing with your son. He will want to beat you so much that he will do the research and practice and try and get better.

If he ever starts to mirror, beat him with fool's mate. Tell him that he was beat by one of the oldest tricks. That should cause him to at least look up some strategy.

Don't let him win. It then turns into a time wasting feelgoodery.

[–]RedEmbrace17 points18 points  (2 children) | Copy

There is this concept called "flow". It is one of the crucial topics in psychology and is also applicable to a learning process.

It is a concept about motivation, about what makes a person keep going. It can be summarized in one picture, however I'd like to give an explanation.

If you never let your son win, he will give up. There should be a tangible goal to aim for, not some random "to beat my father", especially if there isn't the slightest of understanding how to and where to even start.

This is where good teaching comes into play: a decent mentor can keep a person in the flow so his scholar will be incredibly motivated without even noticing.

When the best leader's work is done the people say, 'We did it ourselves.' © Lao Tzu

I'm not saying you should let your pupil win continuously or occasionally, but he should see "the light at the end of the tunnel" so to speak. There should be smaller tasks to achieve.

Understanding the "Why" is the reason one can rearrange his own knowledge bits into new patterns. It is the difference between mindless operating like a machine and being an intelligent human being. Understanding the "why"s is difficult for any task and requires some kind of mentor.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

I loved playing Chess with my dad and uncle when I was a kid. I loved it even though I didn't win. Not even once. But they were (or at least pretended to be) surprised how difficult it was to beat me and that the game was even until I made some mistake. Now that I think about it, they probably were drunk most of the time when we played. Anyway, this was the "light at the end of the tunnel" that motivated me. When I later played against friends, I had a great time (mostly winning).

[–]icallmyselfmonster2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I think you will like this video : The Neurochemistry of Flow States, with Steven Kotler

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy

Playing isn't teaching though, nor playing is understanding.

As a highly rated chess player, I've gotta say it really is.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You are dead right. Add impulse control to that list....

[–]CrimsonAcid938 points9 points  (4 children) | Copy

I play chess competitively. One thing i've noted about life is that you can read moves much like you would in chess. You start being able to see how all the other people around you are going to play their cards before they do again, much like chess. Proficiency in any classic board game (Chess, Checkers, othello, mancala for christs sake) tends to give you this ability. It helps a lot being able to think ahead of the other men around me.

[–]AlphaJesus2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks for your insight as well. That makes alot of sense.

[–]rpscrote0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

watch out for false confidence as the range of human behavior is vastly more complicated and open than the limited options present in a game like chess. People frequently make highly illogical decisions based on emotion, which can manifest in a lot of very weird and unpredictable manners.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Also for the love of God play chess with your son.

Completely agree (or Shogi, or Go). Games of strategy, requiring discipline of thought, thinking through consequences, thinking ahead.

[–]esco_3 points4 points  (11 children) | Copy

BF Skinner was a radical behaviourist - he was interested in how people and animals behaved, not their thoughts and feelings

Don't sully his name by linking him with the modern education system if you have no fucken idea who he is

[–]Senior Contributor: "The Court Jester"GayLubeOil1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Well BF Skinners Research is currently being used to reprogram people. Also skinner made a baby fear bunnies and seriously fucked that baby up.

[–]esco_-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy

He made a baby fear bunnies... so what? thats a simple generalisation experiment and nothing to do with modern schooling

Also no idea what you mean by "reprogram people"

[–]Senior Contributor: "The Court Jester"GayLubeOil0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Say something negative about the American flag and watch as the behavorist conditioning takes effect.

[–]esco_0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

thats not behaviourist conditioning at all... you're referring to a strong sense of blind nationalism? that has nothing to do with behavioural psychology...

[–]RedCurtis 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

Implying that the entire (modern) field of psychology is about people's fee-fees. Have a read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_revolution

[–]esco_1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

i implied nothing of the sort

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy

Radical behaviourism was a considerable influence on 2nd wave feminism, giving them the idea that humans were tabula rasa, and thus they could consider masculine and feminine behaviours as no more than social constructs, to be demolished by appropriate education and upbringing. This is in spite of the fact that some of the core tenets of radical behaviourism were being falsified right at that time. Garcia and Koelling (1966) and Garcia, Ervin & Koelling (1966) showed that equipotentiality and the contiguity principle did not hold. Harry Harlow's (1971) experiments on monkeys with two 'mothers', one covered with soft terry cloth, the other of wire mesh, of which only the latter dispensed food, also cast doubts on the universality of operant conditioning.

[–]esco_0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

that experiment doesn't cast doubt on the "universality of operant conditioning"

Do you even know what operant conditioning is?

Behavioursm does NOT think of humans as a blank slate. You are creating a scarecrow to argue against and then tearing it down. Behaviourism as a discipline freely admits that there are genetic drivers to behaviour, and that people are born with instinctual responses. We are also products of our reinforcement histories and these interact with the genetic predispositions and instincts

Educate yourself. Not only are you making yourself sound stupid, you are misrepresenting a discipline to people who don't know enough about it to know how fucking retarded your statements are. As someone who teaches behavioural psychology at a university level, your inadequate knowledge combined with your inability to recognise such and your willingness to put forward your ramblings as fact offend me

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

2nd wave feminist was indeed highly influenced by radical behaviourism, the environmentalist end of the environmentalist-nativist spectrum. Garcia (and others, eg Seligman) looked at equipotentiality, which although never mentioned in Skinner's own writings, was a common assumption amongst behaviourists. Marlow showed that although the infant monkeys received their primary reinforcement of food from the wire mother, they nonetheless spent their time with the terry mother, and also ran to it when alarmed, contrary to expectations.

Although he never says so in so many words, Skinner can be said to be disposed toward short lists of drives, especially for human beings, simply because he says so little about the issue. This tacit premise, rather than his reinforcement theory, is what makes him look like an environmentalist. His implicit short list makes his extrapolations to society as plausible as they are. If only a few known drives are involved in human social behavior, then controlling agencies can promise to deliver the timely reinforcers. (Herrnstein 1977)

It is this that had a big influence on early 2nd wave feminists (and still does to a large extent, see the side-bar on the interviews with women's studies institute people in Norway). Tabula rasa was not something that behaviourists themselves actually claimed, so far as I know, but that is what feminists took from it, hence all the talk about masculinity being a social construct that can be educated out.

It was Herrnstein who argued for what you are saying here, that there was a common ground between the environmentalists and the nativists, but I'm talking about how things were in the late 60s, not now.

As for your feelz, take them to your womyn's group. I don't care about them.

[–]esco_0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You can't put words in a man's mouth simply because "he didnt say much about it"

That is fucking stupid, for starters

Secondly, that terry cloth mother experiment does not "cast doubt on operant conditioning". Operant conditioning is essentially an established fact. It is a core process involved in learning that happens to ALL animals and humans, and has a large role in our behaviour. This is undisputable to anyone with rudimentary knowledge of human and animal behaviour.

Thirdly, I dont give a shit if there was some feminist dialogue that borrowed ideas from behavioural psychology that have LONG since been updated - i never argued against this. The original issue is that GLO was falsely attributing modern schooling and brainwashing to Skinner, which is a gross misrepresentation of his work.

You've simply moved the goalposts and started arguing against an imaginary critic

[–]TheJessee 16 points16 points [recovered] | Copy

I can only applaud your efforts into making your son aware of what the world is really like and not letting him just believe that bullshit "it's the inside that matters" (especially these fat acceptance movements they disgust me, i could talk at great length about how much they are degrading our society) your body is a reflection of your personality, willpower and many other positive traits, if you make him aware of that and can encourage him to become a person who is willing to work hard to achieve his goals because he realizes this, i think you'll be raising a damn good son, so keep up the good work

[–]HowlingPantherWolf0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

your body is a reflection of your personality, willpower and many other positive traits,

oh come on, that's an outright lie. Take the boss of Abercrombie & Fitch as a random example. The man is downright ugly, but still runs one of the biggest clothing brands out there. So many people working in the tech industry are defenetly nowhere near being a model and yet create the most complicated systems and earn buckets of money.

[–]jx23413 points14 points  (6 children) | Copy

I get where you're coming from. But men are not the same as women. You can respect a muscular man because, as you say, it reflects aspects of his character such as determination and will-power. But with women, the appearance doesn't necessarily have any relation with the character, it's just nice to look at.

[–]King_Groovy8 points9 points  (5 children) | Copy

But with women, the appearance doesn't necessarily have any relation with the character, it's just nice to look at.

true, however... women, as a species are conditioned to be entitled, cutthroat, and insecure at the same time. This is poison for the human mind. Character comes from how you metabolize that poison, and taking care of herself on the outside increases the chance of her taking care of herself on the inside

[–]2wiseclockcounter2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

entitled, cutthroat, and insecure at the same time

that's the perfect synopsis. Also I have to borrow the metabolism analogy. But couldn't it be said that taking care of her outside is just a manifestation of the aforementioned characteristics?

[–]King_Groovy1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

well the definition of entitled means that she feels she doesn't have to put forth any effort in order to get what she "deserves". She feels you should just hand her everything she wants, cater to her every whim, and worship her for the privilege.

a good woman won't act like that. A good woman has respect for herself and for you. Unfortunately, good women are adrift in a sea of empty bitches

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Someone on PPD said women need to take trips and fuck guys to "develop character" lol

[–]Do not send modmail to my personal inboxCrazyHorseInvincible[M] 32 points33 points  (2 children) | Copy

Welcome to /r/theredpill.

Looks like you've never posted here before. Usually people don't do it right the first time. You did.

That "1" you now see by your name is a mark of distinction. It usually takes people a while to get those. Wear it with pride.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy

Mod shouldn't we all get those 1's since we're all special in our ways?

[–]Do not send modmail to my personal inboxCrazyHorseInvincible[M] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yes, you are very special. And I have given you a special flair.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

The outside is a display of what's on the inside. Being fat is a personality.

[–]Fulp_Piction3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

"Self respect comes after you do something you respect yourself for."

A perfect way to put it. I'm writing that one down.

[–]Nothing_Gazes_Back4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Your son is lucky to have a father like you. Mine filled my head with bullshit for my entire youth and I snapped up every word of it because I thought that he was what a man should be. Instead, he's just a miserable workaholic that has tied his life to an undermining harpy of a woman because he refuses to bend his flawed personal morals. I wish it hadn't taken me 23 years to see that.

[–]infiniteslinky5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

You should just show him liar liar where Jim Carey tells his son that it only matters what you look like on the inside is just something ugly people say.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

It's this. This is why I want children. I know it's going to a long shitty arduous fight, and I know I might be idealistic, but if I could just teach/prepare my children for what the world/society is and not what it's made to look like, I'd be happy. (I just reread that all, and it makes sense in my head but not out loud-too bad). Thank you for this post.

[–]TheRealPancomplex-3 points-2 points  (0 children) | Copy

That's why you want children?! I seriously hope there are other reasons beyond just this?!

If you so sorely need to impart your "wisdom" on others why not simply conduct a workshop/meet-up/get together, etc... and "teach" younger males of an appropriate age (see: pre-teens/teenagers) about your experience and point-of-view. You could help them "prepare for what the world/society is and not". I agree with OP's view point and opinion as well as with your desire for young men, to in essence "wake the fuck up", to the reality of the world.

But you writing that "It's this. This is why I want to have children" and no other apparent reason, is not a good enough reason for you to simply breed.

[–]Prophet62 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Awesome work. Great advice for not being picked on as well. Keep that inside you unique and sacred and think strategically about how you act.

[–]ChairBorneMGTOW3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is probably one of the best anecdotes I have read on this sub in a long time.

[–]watersign3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

this is why this country is fucked. imagine how many kids are out there with deadbeat and or absent dads who are oblivious to this sort of thing.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

add to that the sense of entitlement of being told everyday by their overworked lonely single moms that cuddle them and overprotect them and give them everything they want when they want and tell them just how perfect they are just like that.

[–][deleted] 7 points7 points | Copy

[permanently deleted]

[–]Endorsed ContributorObio121 points22 points  (2 children) | Copy

I heard the same thing from my friend's daughter who is 14. I asked her if she planned on dating a sweet man who was ugly and poor.

Her young hamster imploded.

[–]fnordsnord5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

I especially like tweaking women who won't date short men. Because of all the things to find unattractive, that one is the MOST impossible to change.

[–]1oldredder0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Too bad. Genetic selection. Any of us, women too, are entitled to exclude gene patterns which don't have a chance to produce desired offspring.

[–]Vigilo_Infinite2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

You're absolutely right.

It's not that society has lied to us when we're told "it's what's on the inside that matters", it's just that it's taken in the wrong context.

A brilliant body, or a skill that has produced fruit from labor, refined over years, is a visual representation of what's on the inside. So, in a way it is what's inside that matters, just not in the motherly "unconditional" feminine verson of "even fat people need to be excepted" way.

[–]2BigBottlesOfWater2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Even if it doesn't help your son, it still hits a chord with me. I'm not active on the sub, but I do follow it. Those are wise words.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

kid needs you to tell this to him. don't let him turn into a bred blue piller who is going to be mounted first by society and then by his wife who turns into his ex wife

[–]ramot12 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

My dad made sarcastic remarks about every girl I ever dated. But he made the same mistakes with his own women that he chastised me for. He had four wives throughout his life, and ended up alone. He condemned marriage, but did it himself four times.

I stopped after 2 marriages. Never again. I am not saying that he never taught me anything. He taught me to stop repeating his mistakes.

[–]XedtheRed2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

My dad always told me Who I am matters, and if your a good man, your outsides will grow to match whats inside.

But as with anything in life, It doesn't come for free, you have to earn it, work for it, own it.

He taught me not to act like an entitled little prick and for that I thank him.

[–]RedditLovsCensorship2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

no guy is born with a Schwarzenegger body. It takes discipline to eat right and work out every day

And roids...don't forget roids. Not saying you can't get a nice body without them, but there is a point that you can't reach if you are 'full natty'. It's important to realize this, because no matter how hard you work out with good form and nutrition, you will tell yourself that you are doing things seriously wrong if you really buy into the idea that most of your fitness idols are fully natural like they love to pretend to be.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Something from a while back sticks with me. "Your body is an outward reflection of your inner values."

[–]Sir_Shitlord_focker1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

If only my dad was this wise.

[–]moiez3261 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Youre the father i never had, the father i never wanted but the father i needed.

[–]Jigsus1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I think he was a little young for such a talk.

[–]xcallide1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

could have worded it to be more consumable for the kid. part of the reason why the red pill is disliked is the language with which it is spread. within the red pill subreddit, its a no-nonsense area; outside, we need to ease people into the ideas if we really want the message to spread. i would have said: "the outside matters too, because people who go to the gym a lot and exercise a lot... they are not lazy. people who are healthy are not lazy. well, not all the time. a person that was unlucky and born without legs cant run, so they cant get healthy by running. they could lift weights, but they cant do everything that normal people like you and me. so be thankful for your body and respect your body by exercising." thats more or less what i would say to my younger brother. otherwise, it would be great to see RP kids that have the lost values of duty, respect, and above all loyalty

[–]trpobserver2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks for reminding me how beta my dad was

[–]rossiFan2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I can assure everyone that I've started "de-programming" my son, and he's only 13.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Trust me what you're saying goes a long long way. I was lucky enough to be raised by a very red pill set of parents.

[–]aditas0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You are right. The kid got the message. It is now gospel to him. Well done dad.

[–]AlphaJesus3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

My dad used to call me a faggot and used to hit me. The only time I got any "Father-son" talks was when he used to wake me up at night in a drunken stupor and he would quietly teach me how to cook. Then he would hold back tears and tell me he loved me. This happened only on like 3 occassions. I consider myself an orphan.

[–]Angry_Landwhale 2 points2 points [recovered] | Copy

I consider myself an orphan.

It sounds like you want to feel sorry for yourself and want others to see you as some sort of tragic victim. The reality is you're just weak. Your dad probably fell short as a man (to whatever extent this anecdote is true) and never equipped himself with the mindset to overcome his own demons. This pitfall easily happens when one does not actively decide to focus only on what is within their sphere of influence. The past cannot be changed, and should only be focused on as a tool to become better, not as an excuse for falling short of potential. The world does not care about the reasons you did or did not do. It does not care about the why, only the what. The why of things is your burden to bear alone, no one else's.

[–]AlphaJesus2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Your exactly right. By proclamation of my past I just like to point out the fact that some of us are here because of broken family units.

It can sound like whatever it feels like but I know where I stand.

Standing straight or held straight.

I stand now.

I do however acknowledge my faults and shortcomings only as a means of understanding my weakness so I may make it my strength.

I see a lack of comfortability with vulnerability here and I find that unhealthy for the human soul.

So as a man who lives an acta non verba lifestyle I'm vulnerable first so others may follow.

It's a method to my madness.

We are all RP men here but let's not deny our humanity and our nature as humans to be social creatures.

A lack of a father is a devasting thing to a child. Or atleast a positive patriarchal fathure figure.

One day I'll have a son and it will be my greatest privledge to be the dad to him that my father wasn't to me.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

Good job, i wish I had a red pill dad.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

Stop wishing. We who didn't have it are better off now that we realism the truth. I'll welcome death before I'll let myself be like my dad. If I had a red pill dad it would be easy to ignore the red pill truths. We learnt it the hard way. The best way. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and be better. Period.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Amen. I'll never be like my dad neither.

[–]AntixD0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I never watched tv growing up,my dad was strict about it,only at the end of the term I used to get to a bit,you should do that with your son,let him read instead,I used to read a lot and it's definitely better

[–]Jimmypickles0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I live on Coney Island (Brighton), by "Muscle Beach" I assume you mean that one pull up bar and bits of playground equipment that everyone (myself included) work out on.

[–]1TonyLaRocca[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Pretty much, over by the Wonder Wheel.

[–]robertpaulsontitties0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

"But it's what's on the inside that matters. They shouldn't care about that."

You gave a good answer but I still think you're buying into the media framework to some extent by phrasing it as how people "should" act. There is no "should" about it. Both the inside and the outside matter to everyone and there is nothing wrong with that. It's just a matter of how honest we are about it. Your follow up argument that, in essence, the outside often reflects the inside is rock solid.

[–]TheRedThrowAwayPill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You're me? Huh.

So, is there a new roller coaster over there? And is the shooting range still there?

[–]climb0260 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Just out of curiosity, how old is your son?

[–]drummmergeorge-5 points-4 points  (0 children) | Copy

If OP mentioned SpongeBob and the "son" has to ask why there is semi-naked people in public. 10th grade.

[–]alreadyredschool0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Your inside only matters for what it makes you do. Nicely said, you didn't gone overt way and told him that girls are extremely shallow.

What I expected was something like "go read the sidebar"

[–]1oldredder1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

If there's any man with a right and the right place/time to lay down the full red pill deal on how women are, it's a man talking to his son to save him from indoctrination and misery before it's too late. It's not like room-mates or co-workers or random strangers.

[–]whatgold-4 points-3 points  (1 child) | Copy

He looked at me in shock. "But it's what's on the inside that matters. They shouldn't care about that."

Pretty terrible father if you've let him live under this degree of mind control.

You must be divorced and he lives with his mother or something, only thing that makes sense for him to drift this far.

[–]1oldredder2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

By law kids must go to school. School is where this indoctrination happens.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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