Link: https://archive.is/DIpeh
I think it's partly this guy's fault for being a doormat. A list of all the things he did for her:
He would always offer a helping hand, or would listen. We'd have conversations on skype, and he'd always be supportive and offer friendly advice. At work, he was really flexible with his shifts and would always rearrange to cover mine. For example, if I couldn't make a shift on a certain day, and would prefer another day, he would always gladly swap with me. He was always friendly about it. When I was moving apartments a couple months ago, he helped me move my stuff. When I didn't have my car for about two weeks, he drove me to work and home every day. He was an incredibly good friend and I was really thankful to have someone like him around.
And he was also incredibly emotionally supportive, whenever I'd talk about my issues with friends or family, he'd listen. I've had depression and anxiety in the past, I take meds for it, and it comes back every now and again. I have a lot of personal worries, fears and issues, and he's always ready to listen and be supportive.
He asks her out and of course she says no. Surprisingly he doesn't just become an orbiter and keep doing nice things for her, instead he moves on which annoys her:
Then over the next few days I noticed things were a bit different. He would still talk to me, chit chat occasionally, smile, say Hi. But he wasn't as receptive to conversations with me any more. On skype when we'd talk, he'd take longer to respond, and seems always uninterested and giving one word responses. With work, he's no longer swapping any shifts with me. He says he can't manage the time, and he's also on a busy work and life schedule that he can't always move things around.
I'm moving apartments again in a months time, and I asked if he'd be ready to help me move again like last time, he said probably not and that he's too busy.
He's not giving her undivided attention and doing her favors all the time so what's her reaction?
Now suddenly, its almost like he's an asshole.
Did I make friends with a "nice guy"? Was he really just an asshole all along only pretending to be nice to get in my pants?
Lesson: So if a guy doesn't give you undivided attention and time, he's an asshole.
Best comment:
Yeah, you knew him for 8 months OP. He was never really your "friend" as he viewed you as a potential love interest. You shut him now, now he's protecting himself by creating distance and finding other girls to prioritize for dating.
You are not entitled to preferential treatment. You are not dating him. You are not sleeping with him. He's just a dude and now he has other priorities. You don't get the benefit of boyfriend-like behavior from someone you will only accept platonic friendship with.
So, no he isn't an asshole. He's just a dude with healthy boundaries.
Her entitlement is absurd.
Typical case of victim mentality; IS HE ONE OF THOSE "NICE GUY"?
Here is the current top comment, for good reason:
It's a fucking great comment. I was extremely pleasantly surprised to see it had been up voted to the top.
It seems feminists pushed the envelope too far and the tide is now turning.
The thing is men are slow to react as a group. But when they do it can be extreme and pick up momentum very quickly. You can poke the bear for hours, but when he finally wakes up you are fucked.
That's because men aren't a group. Not in the sense that we care about other men's welfare, how well off they are, how much pussy they get etc. you may be fortunate enough to have a few buds that have your back in some regard, but that's about it. The lessons here are part of an individual journey. Only the weak can rise up as a group. That's all you see today.
The bear analogy is a good one, but we as men are all "the bear", individually, not collectively.
That's one of the reasons we aren't further along with this kind of bs. As the tide turns more against men maybe we will see a more unified front against feminism.
You're full of shit. If you go to another country, your natural inclination is to identify other people who are "like you." you're an "individual" because that's comfortable. That's why minorities stick together in this country and why the social order is being hen-pecked. We (edit: anglo-americans) are literally being dispossed because we embrace individualism. When shit hits the fan, you're going to collectivize. If you're trying to be the strongest version of yourself, you're doing yourself a disservice by not identifying your kin.
Take an army of "individuals" and look at how they fare against coordinated armed tank divisions with aerial support.
"The greatest possession in the world that you have is your own people." -usA
tl;dr - Nice Guy stopped being a Time Ho. Now he's a not so nice guy lol...
I actually see shit like this a lot in real life. Its mostly on redditt that I see the shitty advice and comments.
It's typical for NG's to bottle up their emotions. As a culture it's the same thing happening, just en masse. Things aren't going to be pretty when the collective NG lid pops.
Honestly, it is because a lot of guys that actually read Relationships are, for the most part, the types of dudes that this describes. They pine over a girl for an extended period of time and think that all of their good deeds and emotional talks will get her to like them. They resonate with what the guy did and his line of thinking.
That is such a pathetic approach. I can't believe people think it actually works.
Well it does work, just not well and not often. It's all some people know.
This. If people are told all the time that the stuff that actually works doesn't work/is disrespectful/only works on shallow low quality girls, of course they try the only thing that's mainstream-approved.
We were all living the disney lie at one point, unless your last name is Thundercock
I dunno, I'm definitely not a chad, but this was never my approach to getting women. Basically all I do (and have ever done) is make it pretty obvious I'm interested and if there's no reciprocation, I move on. I don't get why anyone would think months of favors and obsequious behavior would do anything other than put you into a position to be taken advantage of.
Chad benefits from the Disney lie. He's Prince Charming. Disney helps him spread more legs than alcohol alone ever could.
Oh yeah. Im guilty of this too when I had no experience whatsoever. Its weird how its one of the default things guys do to woo women yet it barely ever works and isnt worth the time and resources.
i get your point but not really. i don't view this as like a drug rehab forum where everyone who's here had to hit rock bottom.
i look back at my life and cringe at some of my behavior when i was younger, but it was mainly because i was a kid. i've never been creeping around chicks for 8 months helping them move shit and being their "nice guy". it's called some base level of self-respect. you don't need to read an internet forum to have that.
Well, it does work quite a lot. It just shouldn't be entirely one sided. One has to realize if they have a shot or not and base their behavior on that.
A generation ago, it did work. Think about all the country love songs: they're exactly this.
Because it works on post epiphany phase women.
Post red pill is pathetic.
Pre red pill is the way to go
Another case of normal treatment turning into being treated horribly because they were recipients of preferential treatment for so long.
What he did is literally how i talk to everyone.
When preferential treatment is all you know, normal treatment feels like "oppression"
Amen. Be altruistic for a while and your beneficiaries start taking it for granted. Withdraw your help and you're suddenly a horrible person.
Not just "is he one of those nice guys!?"
but rather:
In a woman's world, current circumstances and emotions define objective reality. If he's not nice now, then he must have always been an asshole. He was always this way, she just didn't see it.
Notice women talk like this all the time. Especially after breakups.
"He was always an asshole, I just didn't see it."
Sure, toots, that's why you fucked him for three years.
You're goddamn right. Unless he's gay, no one gives that much to a girl and expects nothing in return.
She's partly right. In the book "no more Mr. Nice guy" the author basically says that nice guys are disingenuous assholes in disguise and usually they are. Alphas might seem like shallow dicks but at the very least they're honest about their intentions
You're buying into the malicious spin feminists have put on that story.
Consider the following:
NMMNG is right insofar as the nice guy sets up "covert contracts", in that case the "I treat you like I would treat my girlfriend, and by accepting that treatment, you're signaling me that you would be receptive to my advances". However, as this contract implies, the girl is de facto entering it as well out of her own free will, because, as I said, it's usually blindingly obvious when a nice guy is into you - so one can hardly talk about the guy being the asshole here. Hypothetical scenario: if a girl drove 2 hours each evening to give you blowjobs for free and cook you dinner afterwards, would you be surprised if she finally confessed her feelings to you? And would you call her an asshole if she cut contact after you rejected her?
If anything, I'd argue that the love interest in that equation is the asshole (unless she's truly clueless... yes, some girls are actually that dense and not just manipulative) since she's willing to milk the guy's attention for what it's worth while always hiding the "plausible deniability"-ace up her sleeve should the guy decide to finally come forward. And then run to reddit to create a "woe is me"-post.
Here is a post of a woman who is aware of these covert contracts and how to deal with them.
This is where those type of women say their boyfriend doesn't communicate and blames him for it. No, bitch, you just preferred him over the nice guy who communicated himself with you.
Guys should treat their love interests as umm, I don't know, as they would other people?
Nobody likes a pushover who will grovel at your feet. That's just not attractive and shows that that person respects you more then they respect themselves....
This contract in legal terms is called a quasi contract. Women enter into them all the time.
Correct, but glover doesn't describe the guy in OPs life.
"Nice Guys" lash out, get angry, get depressed, then apologize and recycle. They think that the nice guy routine wasn't nice enough so they try to be nicer, getting angrier all the time.
My guess is this broad had a boyfriend and this guy in her story was an orbiter friend. He knew how the relationship was going and bided his time (he may have been plowing girls in the process too... Who knows?) and when the time was right for him, he went for it and she shot him down (after all, once he's the boyfriend, who will do all her shit?). So he went OI and moved along.
She made no mention of him being angry or insulting or even "mean." He simply stopped giving her anything beyond civil attention.
He's not a "nice guy" in Glovers terms... He's just a nice guy who knows his time is valuable.
I've read the book and I think it's more nuanced than that.
I think in a guy's world, if you want someone to like you, you are nice to them. It generally works for friendships with guys.
With women, only status matters. They choose their friends based on status too. So it's like that scene in Roots where the little black girl thinks she's friends with the little white girl until the white girl tells her they can't be friends because she's above her. The little black girl is like, wah? I thought we had a good time together? I thought we were friends?
This guy probably enjoyed all the time he had spent with her and it probably seemed like she was enjoying herself too. Gee, why not ask her out? We are having fun together. Nope, women don't work that way. They aren't vending machines you put nice coins into and get out sex. They are sex vending machines that take cold, hard status coins and lots of them. You can be a complete asshole, but if you have high enough status, you can call her at 4am and get sex. Your personality, your compatibility, your easy friendship, it's all trivial because you don't earn enough money, didn't come from a good family, don't have a good career, don't drive a hot car.
Whoa someones frustrated.
Women just want guys who respect themselves first, they don't need a pushover.
Sounds like someone's ignorant of female nature!
AWALT, man. AWALT. Nothing more, nothing less.
AWALT?
Nah I got this female nature down, you are swallowing the wrong pill.
That sentence was amazing to read. Her hamster is in such a fucking sprint that I fear the wheel's speed will open a rift to another dimension. This guy helps this girl for 8 months, driving her to and from work, helping her move, and covering her shifts. She turns him down, and he moves on. All of a sudden, she feels used. Yes, used. All that shit he did for you over 8 months was using you.
God damn, I have to make fun of it, because I can't form any rationale as to how she came to that conclusion
8 months of him doing one way favors for her. He finally gets the balls to ask her out and she says no, he's smart and moves on. She probably actually does feel used because in her mind she had to associate with and hang out with a guy that probably doesn't even register as more than an errand boy. When errand boy stops doing errands for seemingly no reason, because you certainly don't go on dates with errand boys, she gets frustrated.
Her reaction is actually pretty understandable - she had the most useful friend imaginable for eight months, and now she doesn't. It's only "entitled" once you view the guy as a person rather than a convenience, and she doesn't.
He should bill her for all of his time. If she feels used already, might as well give her a reason to feel that way.
It's a golden rule: nothing makes people appreciate you like charging them money for your time. I'll do something pro bono for someone and they will sometimes thank me. But when I charge someone thousands of dollars? They always thank me, because they feel the value.
Pro Life Tip: If you do something for someone for free in your personal time, be sure to let them know ahead of time that you normally charge x-amount of dollars for the service but you're doing this for them as a favor. Makes them much more appreciative, even if you don't plan to cash in on that favor, lets them know your time is valuable.
Edit: Clarification that the tip at the bottom is not for businesses/customers, but rather personal friends, etc.
I run an internet marketing company, and "free consulting" is something that always has to be in the back of my mind. Giving away something is very, very, very dicey.
To the average person, if you tell them how much it usually costs and then you do it for free they don't appreciate it the way you're describing. It cost them nothing. I would only do this if we're completely on the same page or I trust them. (if they're currently a client - you're good here).
What's better is to charge a cut-rate (or do something smaller) and agree on what the normal rates are thereafter. Then you've got the foot in the door, and they understand that you can give them stuff for money so What'sTheBigDeal.
Totally agree. I'd even go out and say that I will never give deals to new customers unless I absolutely have to. Which, I have a certain quota of charity work I do have to fulfill yearly so that happens regularly enough, but it's out of necessity. Rewarding loyal clients is always a good idea however.
I was talking more along the lines of when you do things for personal friends and acquaintances who aren't potential clients/customers. Added in your personal time above to clarify.
There's a very distinct line between what are your 'new business acquisition' costs, and actual work which you should be paid for. This should be made very clear at the onset of any engagement. Your credibility, and desirability is at stake.
Ad hoc discounting is something I would avoid at all cost - you set a precedent by opening that door - if one must offer a competitive incentive to gain an important sizeable piece of long-term business, then I would suggest that lower rates are agreed beforehand only in return for exclusivity (or something of comparable value). This means that you are willing to offer discounted consulting rates only because of your lower overhead of not having to negotiate rates for every project with this same client, and because of the volume generated. Under this regime you could justify lower rates because you will indeed have economies of scale depending of how you're structured.
In consulting there are often little jobs that prop up now and then - the kind of little jobs that may feel hardly worth the time to bill for them but these add up considerably, will often take time away from other client's work as resources are reassigned, are a considerable nuisance that will always set a precedent no different than discounting. (Keep a list of these as this will be helpful in future negotiations too.) You can deal with these by pre-negotiating a bank of hours to deal with these exclusively (typically at the end of a project to deal with runoff issues), or if its during an ongoing engagement, this is a perfect opportunity to negotiate a retainer to deal with these. Always charge for your time, always. Keep a tight ship - it pays off in more ways than one.
Agreed. I work as a Desktop Engineer. I offered to fix a poor family's PC but got busy with life, a month later they got pissy about it taking so long.
This is fantastic life advice, thank you.
The simplest argument I've seen for the value of behavioral economics is "you can sell more units by raising your prices". In a world of rational decision makers and perfect information, that's an absurd result. In reality, it works wonders, and increasing the theoretical value of a service trips the same levels - hence the phenomenon of always-on-sale products. "I would have charged X" follows the same rules.
This makes me more inclined to try to focus the favors I do on my area of expertise. If I help you move I can demand a six pack, but I can't say "this is worth $X00" because I'm not a qualified mover. If I do would-be-professional work, I can convincingly state it's value.
Sometimes this kind of thing works but there are many cases where it would not work at all. If McDonald's raised the price of a cheeseburger to $20, they would not sell more. I agree though it can work for more luxury type items, less so for commodity type items, and in general more so for things that are hard to objectively value, that have ambiguity of information around them, and things that are status signifiers.
Yeah, she got confused alright. She thought he was a platonic beta orbiter, turns out he was a non-platonic beta orbiter. Easy mistake to make when a guy lacks balls. Entitled bitch.
He presented himself as errand boy. Calling her a bitch is silly. Good for him that he wised up a little.
I'd like to chime in that she probably has not encountered this kind of behavior previously (since it is pretty rare), and does not know how to react.
This does not excuse her self-centered rationalization but is is an explanation. I had a similar experience with a girl but only knew her for about one month due to same college-courses.
I really liked reading the comments to this btw. Made me feel warm and comfy.
Her tool broke and doesn't work anymore, so she got mad at it.
Withdrawing priveleges is "turning on" someone??? holy crap these entitled women today...
No bitch... turning on you is lying to all your friends, calling the police on you, assaulting you, destroying your life and your possessions, and then making out to be the victim. Should know this, it's how women behave when a relationship ends or their feelz are hurt by rejection.
It's protecting her self conception. She doesn't want to be honest about her noticing (the girl always notices the guy is into her), leading the guy on, and gathering favors. She's protecting her idea of herself by blaming the guy.
This is the only answer. I used to think it was women would 'lie' to themselves...but they really don't...It's other people's perception of them they are trying to preserve, no their own integrity.
Yea, women in these situations know. It's their job to know. Women treat men like men treat a job/career.
I think that the hamster had already it made it through the rift and into the other dimension by the time she wrote that.
The hamster now transcends time, and can appear to rationalize any entitlement: past, present, and future. In any location, any universe.
I wonder how much of a "friend" she was to him. I wonder if she would have switched shifts for him. I wonder if she would have helped him move. I wonder if she would just listen to him without wanting anything if he was depressed. I bet she couldn't even name some really basic questions about his interests, dreams, or anything beyond her uses for him.
Whoa whoa. As long as he does things for ME, we're friends! All those times I talked about my problems... I mean really that was conversation! If anything I was more interesting and just had more to talk about, and he was always quiet and listening but... that's just because I always had more to say! That's not my fault! And I did PLENTY! I called him, I talked to him... It's not my fault he wanted more from me like some creep!
"He never had things going on, he was free and would have just been sitting at his house! He just wasn't passionate about things like me or struggle with the things I struggle with!"
The old 'the world stops existing when I leave the room' puzzle most of us solve before pre-k.
If you give a man something, he feels like he owes you. If you give a woman something, she feels like you owe her.
Never give a woman anything without telling her what you expect in return.
Holy shit. You just codified something in the back of my mind... an experience, into a perfect statement.
I gave a woman my time, sacrificed my path in life, sacrificed my time, did things I said I wouldn't do, just to stay together and spend more time together. When it came time for her to make a similar choice to sacrifice what she wanted to be with me... she wouldn't even give it a SHOT. She didn't even CONSIDER IT.
This is true with all female friendships. Women live in the now. All that stuff you did for them in the past means nothing. There isn't a bank account of loyalty. There's no savings of favors. It's a running faucet that goes right into the drain and once the faucet is off, it's over.
Expect zero return on your investment.
Just to stay together? Why did you do that? respect yourself first brother and in turn she will respect you. Women are always one step ahead socially.
I really really enjoyed her company and wanted to stay together. I wouldn't have regretted it but didn't imagine she wouldn't feel the same way. But this is pre TRP and pre plates so.. yeah.
lolll so true. If the guy continues to do stuff and help like that, then she will consider him clingy or creepy after he has been turned down.
For anyone new to this shit, if you want to know the right answer or the right thing to do when you get turned down. Cut the contact, move on with your life.
Girls just don't understand when a guy is doing all of these things prior to expressing his feelings, he is going through the age old process of wooing the opposite sex. Showing he can provide and be there for her. Which in turn if he is lucky leads to sex, relationship all that jazz. Girls assume guys just do this for the fun of it or some shit.
Wooing is pathetic and just shows that a man doesn't respect himself enough and is willing to put a woman above all else.
Don't be a buttcake. Talk nicely.
Political correctness is a waste of everyones time.
Dont forget "without a guy completely turning on me". Him not doing everything for her anymore suddenly became he is now against her.
Dat entitlement.
Her world has been rocked though...
One guy stopped being a Time Ho. Now she's worried all her other Time Ho's are going to get wise and stop doing shit for her. Just imagine how a woman would feel if all her beta orbiters bailed on her at the same time.
You have to realize that in her mind, her mere presence is a gift and a favor. She's had this idea reinforced for her her whole life by supplicants and sycophants.
You should be thankful to serve meee.
"Turning on" now means "merely being a polite friend, not a slave". If he's called her a worthless cunt and cut ties, she'd have a point. Instead, he devotes more of his resources to potential romantic partners than to random women who abuse his friendship for their convenience.
Briffaults law. She doesn't care or recognize any past benefits. Only present and future benefits. That's all it was ever about. There is no male friend to a woman.
the worst part is... some guy is going to come along, Fuck her like he owns her and treat here like DOG SHIT, she's going to turn into this doormat and do everything she can to get her new abusive "boyfriend" to appreciate her, and she'll still complain about the ASSHOLE that stopped being nice when she rejected him.
Just imagine if he had sex with her and she regretted it...
"RRRRRAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
See, this is why I fucking love this sub.
You can't rationalize it because you are a man. Any man will never truly be able to get 100% of the rationale of a woman's decisions because it is so complex however, the underlying theme is that it is selfish thoughts. A woman thinks solely for herself. She wants to put herself in the best position. If a man wants to be helpful and allow her to make her life that much easier, she will let him. Men will also do this as well however to a much lesser degree because we actually have a conscious and some of us may be gratuitous enough to let the guy know to sack up.
Her orbiter ex-friend is a huge beta because he never stated his intentions from the get go. Had he been rejected he could've just nexted her and moved on but he wasted 8 months of his own time THINKING that it would cause her to at the very least be somewhat interested in him on a non-platonic level however he made the deadly mistake of assuming that his thought process is in line with a woman's.
The explanation is actually kind of basic. Maybe it even warrants a post:
Women do not make friends. Everybody in the world is either a source of validation (includes being a useful tool to her) or a source of entertainment.
Even her female "friends" are just social nodes. They give her drama, entertainment, they validate her, and when the prettiest one isn't there, she and all of the other girls badmouth her. And when the ugliest one isn't here, she and all of the other girls badmouth her instead. These girls don't take bullets for each other. They validate and entertain each other. They like each other's facebook photos and go out clubbing together and secretly hate it if a hot guy picks their friend instead of them.
Her male "friends" are the same way. A source of entertainment or a source of validation. She knows you can fuck guys, she knows guys want to fuck, and she knows that any man who helps her move boxes is into her. But she and her male "friend" had an unspoken understanding that while he was into her, he'd shut up about it and be a useful tool to her, thereby validating her. This was a covert contract on her part. She thought that if she gave him time and attention but only minimally led him on, things would stay the same and he'd keep being useful to her, without broaching the romance thing since she never gave a strong signal. And it's how she views every single guy she's not fucking in her mind. A source of validation or a source of entertainment.
It's not the guy who was a shitty friend by secretly wanting sex/relation. It's the girl who's always a shitty friend because girls don't make friends. Girls treat every guy as either a guy they're fucking or a guy they're trying to avoid fucking (Hell, they think every man is a potential rapist.) It's girls who don't differentiate between friends and potential lovers.
My follow-up question is this: how conscious are they that they do this? I feel like women go out of their way to cover their reality from themselves (the reason they need a guy to break down their LMR or take responsibility for sex if they cheat). So it's like... can you blame a girl if she isn't conscious that she does it? Like in this scenario, I'm betting she really felt like the guy was a friend... is that just her biology allowing her to ignore the fact that this guy is attracted to her in order to get better provisioning / resources / protection / services?
So many things taught here go by this but is unecessary to state because male nature is obvious, not covered with smoke and mirrors, shrouded in darkness with indoctrination and shaming, and humans lack the instinctive mechanisms (read: women are wonderful & whiteknight) that hamster away his behavior.
I'd of fucked off a lot sooner then that.
I have a rule
If by the 3rd date no sex...then I dump it.
Dated a girl, 3rd date no sex I said fuck it lets give it one more go. She turned down my advances. I finished up the date the next day I told her I was no longer interested in seeing her anymore.
I agree with this. Although I wouldn't dump her. I'd just really calmly ask her what was up and why she wasn't interested in having sex. Could be she was waiting for the third date and then went on the rag or she missed her trip to the waxers or anything really.
3rd date and 4th date where separated by nearly two weeks.
Oh, I've no doubt in your case. I'd trust another person's judgement. I just steer clear of hard and fast rules myself.
Rules are meant to be bent, and if she was worth it I would have bent it.
I bend rules all day long.
These girls that rail against nice guys, say they're assholes in disguise, say they just want friendship, they're so full of shit. I have to believe one of two things.
Women are stupid
Women have a great ability to rationalize their behavior in a way that makes them feel comfortable with themselves, in a way in which they can have their cake, and eat it too.
Personally, I'm going with the second.
I don't think this guy was insidious, I don't really think the girl was, but I think both of them knew what they were doing on some level. The guy knew that he was trying to showcase the best of himself, as he defined the best of himself, to this girl, so that she would view him as a potential romantic partner. This used to be called courting. Now it's called secretly being an asshole that only wants sex.
She knows he was doing this, she knows his attention is predicated upon his attraction to her. This doesn't negate those good things he showed about himself that he tried to showcase. Modern women don't value a man's willingness to exhibit beta tendencies toward them. Many would say that this was always the case, but I think it goes hand in hand with the encouragement of women to sleep around. Once you stop telling women that it's ok to view their sexuality as precious, that giving it up is what makes them powerful, and start telling them that they should be out fucking everyone, that, that's what makes them powerful, like men, then you are eroding their value for commitment. And it's not that women really change. In the back of their minds they think that Chad is going to maybe start viewing them as LTR material. Tell women the truth. Tell them that men value them less as LTR material the more they have sex, and this fact will reflect their own innate value of their sexuality. Instead of having them think, "Who is the best guy that I can fuck, that I can fool myself into thinking might commit to me," they'll think, "Who can I get to commit to me, that I want to fuck the most." The modern day has thrown these two values completely out of whack, and reversed them, and guess what, no one wins. That is, except the alpha males, and women recognize this, and then they get fucking angry at all men, while ignoring that 80% of the men are getting far less out of this current arrangement than the vast majority of women.
Beta males are disingenuous when it comes to being a women's friend. Why? Because they claim to seek friendship, but actually have hidden motives. Women have this realization when they reject beta males and that's why they become disgusted and upset. The beta dynamic implies that sex is transactional. I give you friendship and favors...you give me sex...and she ends up feeling like a hooker getting paid in favors. Conversely, Women like alphas because they're honest, they don't seek sex under the guise of friendship.
Ultimately, A beta males interest is almost always in romance and sex, not friendship. If men want true friends they seek out men because they undoubtably make better friends (when was the last time a women ever helped you move?) Women don't like to admit this because it makes them feel like they're only good for sex, but it's the reality.
Maybe. But think about it. Is it really disingenuous, or is it the best way he knows how? Is it disingenuous or is it the way women have trained men to think? You think if he didn't know for certain that there was a better way to get this woman that he wouldn't?
I used to be nice to girls too... because they TOLD ME TO BE. That's what I was taught. So at the end of the day we can say both the beta and the girl are wrong, but you need to make an important distinction: it's in the girl's best interest that the guy keep being "disingenuous", while it's in the guys worst interest. She WANTS the guy to keep being a nice guy and she is clearly thrown off guard when the guy expresses sexual interest, so what is clear from that is that she doesn't give a FUCK why he is her friend in the first place, so long as he is doing his "friendly duties".
Who is in a position to subjugate who? How much sex do you think the guy in this scenario has had? How about the woman? At the end of the day a sex starved man is going to do what he thinks he must to get sex. How many females you think have told him to be nice to females and they'll get love? Do you think this female would be any exception? You think this girl gives a fuck about this guy? You think the guy cares about the girl? No matter what way you look at this, the guy isn't an asshole. He just doesn't know any better. The girl clearly either doesn't care, or is a being that CAN'T care.
It's a role reversal. Just like how some criminals blame their victims. They reverse the script complete and they turn black to white. What better way to rationalize your manipulation than turning it around, playing the victim and claiming to be the manipulated one?
She says "used" because it wasn't a real friendship in the first place, he wanted more all along and thought playing nice would work in his favor.
It's deception.
I (almost) cannot believe that she had the audacity to ask him to help her move (for what would be the second time) AFTER she rejected him.
It's gratifying to see that she is getting no support (from either men or women) on relationships for her narcissism.
This is the part of the story that had me wondering if this was a joke. Because certainly no one could be this delusional.
My ex gf broke up with me and a month later she contacted me asking why I didn't wish her a happy birthday.
Fucking mind-boggling, I know.
What??? You didn't got her a gift? But it's her birthday!
You OWE her for all the times she had to put up with you...
It's narcissistic. Which is completely believable.
The top responses to that thread are incredibly... reasonable.
Is this a shift in r/relationships hivemind or is this an issue so clear cut even they got it right? Either way, I'm pleasantly surprised.
I suspected it simply hasn't been brigaded yet. If it keeps up with a consistent level of reasonableness, the thread will probably get locked down.
That's literally what they do. I think they do that a lot when they find pro-female shit so no reasonable shit can come in.
Haven't you noticed a ton more comment graveyards lately? There really is no more contrast in perspective anymore.
no they don't even hide it, if you think there's a ridiculous fucking opinion, the thread is locked. Yes I've noticed, it's a joke. Pure fucking joke.
Relationships can be reasonable when the case is pretty unambiguous. In this case here, we have a clearly self-centered cunt and an inoffensive nice guy who just revoked her "prospective girlfriend"-privileges without much drama.
Last week there was a case of a cheater saying that her husband walked in on her and that he was now giving her the silent treatment, and they didn't gang up on him but on her. A few weeks ago there was also the case of the rape victim who set her bf on a sexual diet for a year where everyone told her that he should have left long ago.
Disregarding which gender is more likely to get a slap on the wrist, relationships is a pretty bluepill place - but this also means that when a case is ultra-obviously fishy, they'll side with the person taken advantage of.
That sub is populated by "nice guys". Of course they'll relate and defend Greg.
I seriously had to check the sub was really r/relationships after reading the first few pages of comments. The comments against the guy were even being downvoted.
Eh r/relationships is pretty red pill, their answer to every problem is "dump them". They fucking next harder than the most devout red pillers.
Wow, transparently self-centered from the very first sentence. Any normal person would phrase it "I met Greg about 8 months ago" or something similar.
Excellent observation. N its great that 99% of the responses say that op is self-centered. I wish this thread was likr a real converation in a room
Good point, its subtle very speaks volumes.
That's a great observation. I just glossed over that.
I think it's the opposite. The focus of the sentence tends to be on the subject.
Consider these 2 Q&As:
Q: When did you meet Greg? A: I met him yesterday. <--- focus on you/I
Q: When did Greg meet you? A: Greg met me yesterday. <--- focus on Greg/Greg
It's either her speech idiosyncrasy, or she's focused on Greg. In this context, I find it more likely that a self-centered person like would focus on Greg. Self-centered people have the two beliefs "I'm the victim" and "Everyone else is at fault." This post is about how everyone else (Greg) is at fault. Since she is complaining about how bad Greg is, she wouldn't insert herself as the focus.
Anyone else think this story is bullshit trolling? It's just too perfect. I don't believe it. This is the only post that OP has ever made and I'm guessing they made up the story to start a shitstorm. It worked since so many people are commenting and arguing about it.
I mean there have been similar stories before... how long have you been around? A lot of women are like this dude.. the thing is, is that you don't so often get stories from the horses mouth that incriminate themselves so bad.
Just because it is fake doesn't make it less valuable.
Moby Dick was fiction.
In this situation it does. Takes away credibility from male focussed subreddits. Us and other subs call out feminist bullshit all the time for lies like this to show they fabricate stories to obtain victim status and further the negative campaign against men. We don't need to be the boy who cried wolf.
You HAVE to love this subreddit. How can you NOT? How can an intelligent person read comments like this and go "ahh misogyny". Holy shit.
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And to top it all off she is the victim. Sheesh, every friend she makes is just a 'nice guy' secretly trying to fuck her. They even go as far as the 'long con', where they'll pretend to be nice to her for months while she leads them on.
Women need to take note:
If a guy helps a girl move, he wants to fuck her. Period. Hands down. No exceptions.
Helping somebody move is the most annoying, long, tedious, aggravating, stupid shit on the planet. When bros help me move or vice versa, everyone is well compensated with food and beer. Because we all understand that moving sucks ass. It takes a real friend to help you move.
Most women don't lift furniture at awkward angles up three flights of stairs to get to an overpriced apartment, so they don't understand. They think their happy dopey guy friends just move shit because they're all friends with her. Not that she would ever carry beds and couches for them. The best she might do is actually bother to empty her drawers before asking the guys to carry her dresser upstairs.
Why the fuck don't girls ever have pizza and beer when they need help moving? It's fucking bro code that ladies know
They're happy to let you buy pizza and beer and eat it at their house after you help them move. What are you talking about?
if your in my contact list I will help you move if I am free (guy or girl). But I expect the same as I give. i give food, booze, or gas money. i must be some terrible nice guy asshole
everyone guy I have ever helped moved has gone something like this:
"hey bro, I need help moving in a few weeks, can you help? i'll have beer and meat during/after"
why is this so hard for women to understand?
Shit, we hired total strangers. As in, we paid them to help us move. At the end of the day we still cooked a giant fucking meal for them.
Women, I swear.
Because the're born and raised in a world where people things for them because they're pretty and/or have a vagina
from /u/Whisper If you give a man something, he feels like he owes you. If you give a woman something, she feels like you owe her.
She feels like you're not giving enough.
I helped a really good female friend move. She had wine, cheese, ham and pies. When I help her with her computer problems, she always returns the favor one way or the other, usually expending more effort than I did. She also invites me to parties and introduces me to her single friends.
She's a real friend, a "bro" you'd call her.
Thing is, I've been pathetically friendzoned on occasions when I was younger, and one thing was clear: they never returned the favor, and in particular never introduced me to their single friends. (So I cut them off, faster and faster as I understood what went on better).
When feminist cunts complain about friendzoned nice guys feeling entitled, they're projecting as usual. They feel much more entitled to their orbiters' service than the betas feel to sex with them. The betas are usually ashamed of their desire, whereas those cunts are proudly using them.
Haha I think that should be the standard. The difference between being some chicks orbiter and her actual friend? She goes out of the way to help you get laid.
Typically women can only be 'friends' when they are friendzoned orbiters to the guy. Then, just like the beta orbiter, the girl will use favors and niceness to get into the guys pants. This is obviously far more rare since guys are more likely to turn a girl into a plate. It only really happens with ugly chicks that develop good personalities or guys in LTRs.
Even when we had paid paid movers moving our shit for us, my mum would always end up spending ~$100 on beer and subway for the movers.
This nails it. Even when I ask my best friends to help me move, I get them dinner and booze (I think a case of beer or a very nice six pack is the going rate for a day of moving?)
It's an infinitely tiresome job that only serves one person's interests. It deserves to be compensated, especially by someone (a woman) who won't ever offer you equal help when you move.
They know this, though: it's cognitive dissonance and extremely disingenuous. The butthurt when they lose their little servants, though, that's unforgivable
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Mother-in-laws ex-husband helped her move out and into father-in-laws place. Don't willfully ignore the red flag just because you are getting your dick wet.
If a husband helps move his ex-wife out of his house there is a fucking reason for that.
MIL is a fucking insane nutcase, of course FIL helped her get there.
He is the most omega motherfucker I have ever heard of.
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Finally had to resort to this. How in the fuck I became "the guy with the truck" in texas is a mystery for the ages.
I don't help women move anymore unless they are already fucking me. Just a couple of months ago, I met a HB8 on tinder with all sorts of red flags. I really wanted to bang her, so I kept ignoring the flags and carried on. She asked if I could help her move out of her ex husbands house and into her new house (1st red flag, shes only 24 and divorced), once I showed up to the house there were 2 other chads there helping her move... So I said "Looks like you got this covered" and noped the fuck out of there.
You see: tinder babe that just happens to need to move house before you can start fucking her.
The reality: she goes on tinder to get guys to help her move house. And it works.
Pretty sure there was ab article posted a while back where a journo did exactly this to see if it'd work.
There was, and that version was "help me shovel snow, no strings attached". She still had men offering to help. She considers using the term "no strings attached" on a Tinder listing to be making her terms "crystal clear".
The subtext that this was listed on Tinder was hamstered away as not relevent. The subtext that women looking to hookup always say they're not looking to hookup was hamstered away. The subtext of the phrase "no strings attached" meaning sex but in this case meaning no sex was hamstered away. The fact that this was on valentine's day and lonely men will do anything for female company was hamstered away.
It worked well for her on V Day.
Later, she tries it again with less success... and I kid you not, she writes this gem: "Heartbroken, with more snow on the way and a renewed sense of urgency, I started swiping right with abandon. "
Yes gentlemen, she is heartbroken that strangers will not shovel her drive for free. After just one free shovelling of her drive, she is so entitled that subsequent lack of free offers is heartbreaking to her.
She eventually finds someone to do it, and she ends the article with "But so long as he kept digging, at least it wasn’t a total waste of my time."
http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2015/03/04/tinder-getting-strangers-shovel-car/
Briffaults Law is a mean bitch when the endless supply of men cease
Generally, this is why women are often greater supporters of hand-in-hand helping communities or other hippie ideas which are not necessarily inherently bad in terms of fostering a greater community but the real bottom line is that women cannot exist without men and they would in these schemes always be the net receivers of services, and men, the net providers of services in the long run. Community work-share or what-not is simply a structure that provides for a greater volume of availability for services for the ill, aged, and ultimately, and they subconsciously know it, ...women.
What do you expect from a chick that majored in History and minored in - wait for it - African studies? That pic of her is also flattering to the point of deception.
The one I remember like that was this woman who had guys come over to shovel snow from her car. Pathetic.
Bro that's not a red flag. That's like a highway barricade with giant flashing lights on top telling you there's a cliff up ahead.
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This wasn't the first time meeting her. We had hung out all week leading up... but then when I showed up I was like... who the fuck are these guys?
All week and you hadn't fucked her? Then you were going to help her move? Bruh...
sucky sucky before lifty lifty
Much to learn, the young padawan has.
You shouldn't have agreed to help her move before sex though, since she was just a random.
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If anyone helps ANYONE move and the person asking for help doesn't offer anything in return; not even a 12 pack, they're a fucking scumbag. Moving sucks!
only three types of women i would offer to help move EVER without having any secret motive. My mom, My sister, and any female who is family and close to our family.
Even then there is an expectation of some sort of "thank you". While with mom/sis/other family it is definitely not sex my mother never asks me to come over and fix something at her house, help her move, mow her yard etc without providing a home cooked meal or something similar. Also, i do enjoy spending time with my mother so it isnt a direct transaction but rather she needs help, wants to spend time with me, and genuinely cares about me and wants me to be happy so she does nice shit for me rather than just expecting me to bow before her all the time because female.
When children grow up, they're obligated to thank their parents, not vice versa.
Parents (In my experience it's the mother more often than not) can be soul sucking asshole users that don't deserve your time or efforts but gladly leverage the ingrained loyalty & supportiveness that we're supposed to have 100% of the time no questions asked but that account can and often does get overdrawn quickly when you have/had shitty parents and they have the mindset that you've just described.
Slolaming someone out of your holiest of holies does not an angel mother make and there are plenty of reasons that said parent(s) deserve neither your time nor your thanks.
Blood disperses in water.
Don't let blood tie you to horrible, unhappy, idiotic people that just serve to bring others down. Once I cut the user part of my family out I was much happier. The rest of the family doesn't associate with me because I wont toe the line and defend the losers. They weren't worth keeping around anyway.
Just like you cut negative friends and those "let's just be friends" girls out, cut the family out that is not worth your time.
Your time is valuable.
Screw that. My mom better suck my dick if she wants help.
Bruh i think you've taken one too many of dem red pills
It's the most alpha thing you can do. You cuck your father and become the man of the house. If his old ass tries to start shit then beat his ass to get your dick liked. 2015 and still on the redpill? Take the black pill.
Game of Thrones, incest redux?
I laughed far to hard at this shit. Totally had the hot nurse come in and check on me.
Dude, don't take the infrared pill; stick to the red ones.
No way. When mom wants to move, I just give some money for the movers. Too old for that shit.
And guys need to take note. If you want to fuck a girl and haven't yet, helping her move is the best way to make sure you never will.
Had to laugh at that. I shared my first rental apartment with a female friend. Anyway all I had to do was do buy some furniture online. Her ex owned a truck and they went to pick up all the stuff and he carried all the stuff up to the 3rd floor. No elevator. He was actually a very fit, above average strong guy.
He would visit often, she had her share of fun and now they are back together.
They don't need to note shit. I've had this theory for a while but I think a woman's complete obliviousness past herself is some sort of evolutionary mechanism. This was explained by someone in the manosphere but the idea that if a man died, a woman had to move on.
Think about it... what downside is there of being completely oblivious in this case? You get tons of men to help you, and then push the blame on them when it eventually surfaces... then you just keep doing it to more men and you always have a stable of men on hand to help you. What's the downside for her? In this society a man can't attack you or extract any kind of revenge. The only time she gets a taste of her own medicine is if a Chad gives her tingles, fucks her and dismisses her moves for commitment, and then it reverses: "I thought you liked me & wanted to possibly commit, but you just wanted me for sex?" the same way she goes to the beta "I thought we were friends but you just wanted me for sex"?
If you were a woman and had ZERO moral compass, this is what you'd do. This is what I would do. Either feign ignorance, or not give a fuck about educating myself so that I'm not ignorant.
Not true. This sub treats interactions between the genders way too black and white. There are a lot of grey areas.
There's a ham planet I work with who I would never hook up with, but I joke around with her and enjoy her company generally. I'd help her move if she asked. She'd also be the type to bring pizza and beer. I'd never help a woman who had a sense of entitlement.
There are plenty of girls I've known over the years with the same dynamic.
Haven't seen the term Ham Planet used since FPH went down. Brought back some good times on that sub. Thank you.
Fair enough. I fixed everything. Thanks.
She might think you're leading her on. :\
Yeah, I hate this sub for that. Sometimes I wonder if it's just Poe Law, and posters are kidding.
They're not kidding. Most people here are super bitter. When you stop being bitter, you don't feel as compelled to come here as often.
I cannot believe the "we're just friendssssss!" rhetoric that comes from this.
Sorry ladies, but if a guy is hanging out with you at all and you're 6.5+ he is crying and masturbating to you on a regular basis.
I helped a girl move and she took me out to dinner because of it. She actually insisted. Then she was my gf for 2 years. I thought I could play devils advocate here, but the original point still stands BECAUSE she wanted to fuck me as well. I could see a chick who wanted no intimacy just getting an orbiter to move her shit though.
Not gonna lie, I was wondering which direction that was going to go in.
Your posts are good but a senior contributor like you shouldn't be using absolute statements where they don't belong. "No exceptions"? Behave yourself, I've helped female friends move before who I didn't and don't want to fuck. And there's female relatives. I helped a fellow student move, it only took a couple of hours because she was a student and she offered beer and pizza after.
One of the reasons AskTRP is shit is because OP lays out his situation from his POV and half the responses are unequivocal, absolute statements when the reality is you can only offer your best guess / interpretation. Shit like 'She's definitely cheating on you bro' or if the OP made a single minor mistake it's 'You fucked up and now she knows you're beta and she's off to go and find Chad'.
There's a lot of accumulated wisdom on this sub but it is undermined when people start throwing unequivocal statements (besides AWALT) around as if there is no nuance in human relationships ever. Help set a better example for the newer members and don't do that shit.
Agree 90% of the time, but there are exceptions. When I was in college/post-grad there was a group of 5 of us that did everything together. We all helped each other move. Sometimes it was the 2 girls moving in together, other times, everyone separate.
But we sure as shit expected to be fed, beered, and entertained afterwards (movies, swimming pool, etc.)
Dude, I wouldn't even help a bro move anymore. They can pay movers to do that shit.
I think you miss the point here. If you are wealthy enough to hire movers then good for you. Other people have more important things to do with their money so having a group of male friends that is willing to help you with shit like this is a very good thing. The difference is that within a group of male friends the understood arrangement is 1) you provide food and beer or something similar and 2) you do the same for them when they need it.
Hiring movers is not expensive.
That is entirely a matter of perspective. What $ amount do you think is typical? Do you beleive that was is typical in your area is close to what it is in the rest of the USA, or in other countries?
$150 to move an entire house 25 miles for me here. If you can't afford that, then you are honestly doing something wrong.
Last night I was caught out by "Mary" a woman who flirts with me and then wants me to help her with her legal case because it is "nice" and because that's what "friends" do. Rather than continue to avoid her I just told it like it is: we are not friends, this is the 4th time we've met, it would be stupid of you to half-ass your way through this with a friend doing any legal work, I get paid to do this, would you give me $10k worth of investment services? and she makes well north of 6 figures so she can afford a lawyer.
The look on her drunk-ass face! The Russian guy who could barely speak English who was trying to pick her up was very confused. He wanted in her pants and there I was saying "no thanks."
I would have given you a high five and paid the next drink for you.
LOL at representing someone as something "Friends" do. This bitch is insane. I provide 0 legal services to anyone who asks and I wont even let them pay me. Not interested.
You dont even represent yourself or family because it puts you too close and compromises your objectivity...
Not once does she talk about what she offers to him, other than of course denying him a date or sexual relationship. She is 100% focused completely on what she is getting out of the relationship and has absolutely no concern for the other side.
Here at TRP, we may be only concerned with what we are getting out of relationships and women, but the difference is that we realize that we have to offer some value in exchange for what we want.
She's a woman, so he's sooooo lucky just to be there.
I'm sooo past trying to justify TRP to ANYONE. The amount of women I've met and talked with who don't get simple fucking concepts about very common sense things is STAGGERING. I've had to explain to women why online dating doesn't work as easily for men. She argued with me for 20 minutes, before finally telling me (she's a hard 7) that she doesn't ever send the first message. She gets 20 messages a day and picks the best guys. In her 30's. HUH?! How can I logically take you seriously when you can't even think logically to begin with?
I'm sold on this idea: women are ignorant in the areas that benefit them to be ignorant. The same concept that a woman can completely take advantage of a beta, and in the same breathe cry and wail when an alpha does the same to them, and they don't even GET the similarity!
I've accepted that TRP will never be accepted by women, because it's just not beneficial. Girls will continue to be ignorant because they CAN. Anytime I hear one of these stories... it just really makes me confident that I'm on the right path, and I lift even harder the next session, I eat even more then next session, I treat women with more callousness & disrespect... and it works. I really didn't want to become this way but at the end of the day we're animals and we have to learn to survive in our environment. I can't give a fuck what people think about this shit anymore.
So yeah... so what if we're concerned with what we are getting out of relationships and women.
Holy shit pretty women are basically white people getting yelled at by shitlibs
BTW I like your comments
Allowing this beta to be in her presence was what she brought to the table.
This guy was me some 3 years back.
He was all of us, let's be honest.
Men need a hobby and a woman isn't a hobby. If she's into you, you'll know it without lifting a finger. Otherwise ignore and enjoy your hobby.
A lot of guys aren't as cued into the signals women give off when they like you.
A woman will never put herself into a clear and obvious situation, except as a last resort.
She will talk to a guy all night, playing with her hair, giggling at his stories, and if he doesn't make a move she'll say she did "all she could."
Women want to be taken and used, they don't want to be the aggressors. The feminine is soft and passive. Stuff happens to women, not the other way around.
I think a standalone post on that topic is in order. Plenty of guys here who are more experienced with women than I am.
We can agree on that. Yes, women want to be pursued. That method works. However it can also land you with a certifiable 'time ho'.
My point was to focus your efforts on not getting the woman but to pursue your hobbies.
You'll be less agitated. You'll have something to show for your time. And the more time you spend in your hobby the chances are it could land on the cover of a magazine.
I'm not gonna sugarcoat this. If you haven't noticed women are playing a losing hand. I can wait this hand out and win by participation.
They've got nothing left to offer.
It's a waste of time chasing them. The ones worth a damn will beat a path to your door. And the FACT you don't even bother to care will make you dreamy in their eyes.
Let go. Let the chips fall where they may.
Jesus. I have female friends, and that's not what this was. They're relationships based on mutual romantic disinterest, where we support each other.
Sure, I'll help you move, if you pay me back in beer, food, and favors. I'll listen to your problems, because I know you'll listen to mine. I'll drive you to work, or loan you my car, because you would do the same for me. There's no hint of friendship here, just an abuse of loyalty.
If she actually wanted to be friends, she'd compensate him for his time and money with hers. She'd also wingman for him, or set him up.
It probably isn't even too late for her to do those things and become a friend - except that it's 22 years of learned entitlement too late for her to become a decent person.
I've never seen women do this. If anything, they tend to make it harder for you to meet anyone else.
Absolutely true. Bitches are protective of their beta orbiters. If she introduces him to Jenny our Susan, all his attention will go to her instead, she can't have that!
I had once hit on a broad who ran in sort of similar social circles. she wasn't interested, no prob. We met through colleagues a few more times after that, and I made a move again. She actually used "LJBF" on me. "You are a great catch Chairborne, but I don't date men in this social circle."
...Ok I'm cool with that.
I said to her outright "hey, you know a ton of single women, introduce me some time." She agreed.
Go out with a group a week later and there are a few hotties. The one she introduces me to is a fucking ditch pig, overweight late 30s, a 3 at best.
She was communicating to me that she was not going to grant access to her clutch of chicks, but wanted me to orbit her regardless.
Noped the fuck out of there.
I've definitely seen women do it, but always in some 'special case'. I've seen people wingwoman for family (e.g. same-age cousins), I've seen it for exes after amicable breakups, and I've seen it for friends who were mutually disinterested.
I've certainly never seen a girl do it for one of 'her' betas - that would interrupt the "I get everything I want" friendship!
Girls that think they can wingman seem to be the worst. The only time I've seen anything close to it work is just when they introduce a friend of theirs and leave you alone. Any involvement of wing-manning from a girl I've seen with strangers comes off as desparate or pathetic.
Most of TRP would say that men and women can't be friends. Could you shed some light?
So... interesting topic. I disagree with the 'base' TRP outlook on that one, but I do agree that men and women can't be the same type of friends that two men can be. Gender does fundamentally alter the relationship.
The big question is presumably how men and women can be friends.
The easy-to-defend case is the Westermarck effect, which basically says that children who grow up together don't develop sexual attractions to each other. It's theorized to be an anti-incest pattern (since separated family members often do show strong sexual attraction because of their similarity), but it also applies to unrelated children raised together. The result is that I have friends and cousins who I share sibling-like relationships with. There's less closeness, but there's still an impediment to sexual tension that makes friendship pretty natural.
The more controversial case is simple mutual disinterest. The two people aren't attracted to one another, either as a matter of "not my type"/"below my league", or following some abortive relationship/sexual encounter that convinced them not to pursue that path. This doesn't work if anyone is harboring delusions of getting together, but I do think it can actually happen.
In either case, the result is someone of the opposite sex with whom you have all the normal friendship/relationship triggers, but don't have the normal sexual tension backing it. In the same way that you're not interested in hooking up with your male friends, men and women end up friends via a lack of sexual interest.
There's one other case, but it only kind of counts: impeded-relationship friends. You and your friend might have a sexual attraction, but there's something substantial enough in the way (career, relationship someone won't sacrifice, whatever) that it's not going to go anywhere. It's not non-sexual friendship, but the sexual side of things undergoes enough denial or transference that you're effectively friends, enough so that she might wing-woman for you.
There's a lot of room to quibble about the definition of "friends" here, but I'm confident in the basic analysis. Any ruleset for male-female interactions has to be capable of accounting for people who don't sleep together, but do help one another sexually. The basic rule of "women who won't sleep with you also won't hook you up" can't be complete, simply going off lived evidence to the contrary.
She believes that she also brings something to their 'relationship'. She has no clue.
Women has this deeply ingrained belief that they have self worth just because they exist. In this case, allowing him to be with her was bringing something to the table. Her divine attention.
This is why they go nuts when you ask them what they have to offer, thus implying you can't see her majestic worth.
Whenever a girl talks about shit like this I always make a simple analogy: the dog died, can we keep it?
Good use of emotive significance. Implicitly equating sticking around after failed physical relationship attempt with keeping a dead and potentially rotting animal carcass would be arguably more successful at conveying the sensation of visceral disgust that leads her to understanding far more than dry logic would.
I feel pretty dumb but... what?
I feel like such an ass, but I don't really get it.
This is a great analogy indeed
you can spot the entitled cunts and whiteknights with comments like "he was never your friend just wanted pussy" and "just because you rejected him does not mean he should stop helping you!"
was he a nice guy? probably not, he didn't lash out or get angry. i think its more likely that the "friendshit" (being friends with a selfish cunt) was one sided, he developed feelings because his desire to help her/be around her made him feel more manly, got rejected, then started to move on. nothing wrong with that.
"Nice guy" is social blackmail to make men do things for women for free.
The exchange is that men do things for women, and women approve of those men with phrases like "nice guy" and "good man".
Yes, men will enslave themselves and fight and die for female approval. The Great Lie is that female approval is worthless, and actually makes sex less likely.
Most women don't have a fucking clue what a good man actually is.
They know all about "having stuff done for me" and the power of female approval or disapproval though.
"Good man" = "man I approve of for now because he does shit for me"
In this society, "good man" means he shuts the fuck up, keeps going to work, and lets her feels run rampant over everything.
I'd also put a healthy amount of cash on a bet that this "friendship" was completely one-sided the entire time. Men aren't the only ones that need to wake up.
This guy knows how to handle the fucking friend zone.
Bravo. I'm proud of this guy. Cut his loses and moved on.
I've been there. I met this girl in one of my CS classes. We started hanging out, going on mini dates, and we'd often do homework together... read: I'd often help her with homework. She was basically passing the class thanks to me.
Halfway thru the semester, I ask her out officially. Get shut down, she says she just got out of a LTR, blah blah, that she needs more time. Ok, fine. It'll give you time. Went on spring break to another country, and come back to the fact that she's hooked up and now dating an acquaintance. I confront her about it and she spins the hamster. I go on complete radio silence and even sit on opposite ends of the class, instead of next to her. Class was so easy I stopped attending, and only showed up for tests/quizzes.
Fast forward next semester, I run into her and she's struggling with her data structures class, and dares to ask for my help. All I reply is "I don't have time. Good luck with that" and walk away. I think she dropped out of CS. Never saw her again.
Little by little you notice it. It's like something is wrong and you can't quite tell what it is. Until the day comes when the red pill is staring you right in the face, and then it all makes sense.
This is the kind of shit that sparks anger in men when dealing with women.
People wonder why we sometimes call women the most responsible teenager in the house?
Only a person with the mind of a child would be this one-dimensionally self absorbed. The fact that she feels outraged that a guy courted her for 8 months (because that's what he did) like a gentleman and then decided to turn his attentions elsewhere when she rejected him just shows how stupid, selfish and infantile she is.
We know here on TRP the modern archetypal woman sees zero value in the archaic method of courtship. Unfortunately, some men foolishly still try to use the practice. This story is just further proof that its an outdated practice turned into a fool's errand in contemporary dating life.
Women in the contemporary dating scene are too dumb and selfish to recognize when a young man enters into a courtship period with them. Courtship ritual and methodology is a sign of respect and affection towards the woman and she should be flattered by the gesture. If she knows she'll never be interested, then she should have enough class to let that be known up front, setting the boundaries for any potential mutual friendship.
This is the way women (mostly) used to behave before 3rd wave feminism.
Now everything is framed as either a right or an indignity for women. Men's role in society is purposefully devalued. They are labeled as lesser and undeserving. Women on the other hand are told they are infallible. The result is any man who wants respect and dignified treatment from women fights an uphill battle. By default the modern archetypal female believes it is OK to shit on you and any resistance displayed in an indictment to your character. Match that with rapidly declining utility women naturally feel as a result of the man's capitulation and that's why you have 120k+ subs here on TRP.
If you want a woman's attention and respect you have to demand it immediately out of the gate. Like I've said many times before you have to be something they want and that has to be your leverage for attaining the attention and treatment you want. Women are selfish - they just are - they are that way because they can be. All the thirst out there affords them that privilege. They really don't start to face real consequences until they approach 30 (when thirst begins to fade). If you're just another thirsty chump lining up to give away the store without any payment being exchanged (courtship as defined in the contemporary mindset) then expect to be fully exploited and ultimately excoriated.
One has to have realistic understanding of the depths of selfish depravity the average young women commonly descends to. They have a different view of the world. Most of them are genuinely incapable of comprehending what actual social fairness is, as they're used to having the world cater to their whims.
The less attention I pay to women, the more I get. The shift swapping thing is funny. One of my plate's beta orbiters ferries her around everywhere. Despite being rejected three times after he professed his undying love, he still does shit for her.
In every word, there is an ethos to stick to. "Never suggest they don't have to pay you. What they get for free, they will take for granted and later demand as a right". Same in everything. Never just do shit for people. Because when you stop for whatever reason, it will be demanded lest you be an asshole.
100%.
Doing favors for others sets a bad precedent for a relationship (whether that be a friendship or otherwise) to start on. It starts the relationship off with the assumption that the one doing favors is below the other.
Wow, women go through so much. They have to deal with the opposite sex being extremely and unconditionally "nice" to them for months or years. Then these monsters, who were being "nice" to them.. well they want to get intimate after a set amount of time? Can you believe that?
What a dog eat dog world out there. War, war never changes.
Fucking incredible.
For a guy who is still plugged in he handled it okay imo, guys have been fed this "Friends" bullshit forever, some women may whine about dishonest nice guys, but if that gravy train stopped there would be a cascade of tears, and a windfall for moving companies, tech support, therapists and emotional support groups lol.
Fact is most guys dont know any better, they think the matrix is real, lets not buy into the feminist shaming narrative, these guys are just doing what those same feminists taught them(dont be direct and sexual, thats toxic masculinity, making a girl feel uncomfortable is practically rape etc.)
Yes its pathetic, but still.
I find it amusing that the OP never responds to anything in these kind of posts when the rabble doesn't defend her.
This .
OP never answers when the top comment is against her/him. What a fucking surprise.
I was in this situation, I took it a step farther, I knew her for almost 8 years and in the last year of our friendship we got a lot closer, we talked for about an hour EVERY night and we'd spend weekends together about once or twice a month which included sleeping in the same bed and cuddling (nothing more).
So, old blue pill me eventually catches feelings because she was honestly a pretty interesting girl, one of the few that I've met who was genuinely intelligent and interesting to talk with. She comes back around and says "You don't even know me scubar!" and "I'm not ready for a relationship right now!". Two weeks later she's dating some other guy she just met.
I guess that ended recently because now she's trying to pull me back into orbit again.
If you have upped your game and physique, you might enjoy giving her hope then rejecting her. Not red pill behaviour I'll admit, but fucking satisfying I would bet.
Or, game her, get her consent for sex on your phone, jam it in her asshole and the second you come: get up, wash your dick, leave and block her number.
I've thought about it, but the fact that she would momentarily get pleasure from me with if I took that course of action is too much. She deserves to spend the rest of her life regretting how she rejected me or not.
Did one of you red bastards write this? Nobody is as willfully clueless as this bitch.
Pretty telling that there isn't even the thought of reciprocation of this 'friendship'. Nothing along the lines of, "I'm there for him, as well, if he has any issues." "I would/do cover for him, when he needs it." etc.
"I asked if he'd be ready to help me move again like last time."
Classic! A rational adult request would be, "I know you helped me move recently, which was very much appreciated, and is there any way you could help out again? I'll buy food, beer, etc. its a really big help and I appreciate it." However, the default has already become, "When I need something, he is supposed to be there to provide it to me."
Good on this guy for setting boundaries and not putting up with bullshit. I love how he's 'an asshole' when she admits he is nice to her, smiles, and continues to speak with her on skype. When she requests his time and help (for a second time, without any thought of reciprocation - and I'm only talking about money, food, etc.), he replies that he was happy to help the first time, but he has other priorities and probably won't be available to help. Omg what an asshole!
Good to see the comments having some actual sane responses for once. This girl is an idiot. She lost her gravy train because she crashed her orbiter, and now she's come to reddit for hamster reinforcement.
Holy fuck. Whenever the term "nice guy tm" is thrown about, I thought it was used to vilify butthurt betas who go on about "teh evil, friendzoning bitches". The guy was not rude or condescending to her whatsoever, he just decided to treat her like a normal person instead, simply not cheaply doing favours for them.
what the fuck? He's still cordial to her and professional and she's upset? Disgusting level of entitlement
The guy must have been interested in her from the get go, but made the major mistake of trying to friend his way to being her lover when he should have let her know right away he was interested.
So she's an asshole for letting it go on that long (can't believe she wouldn't see he was interested in her romantically) and taking advantage, and he's an asshole for not letting her know sooner and trying to buy affection, although he gets some credit for shutting it down when she rejected him.
He really needs to read No More Mr Nice Guy. It'll change his life.
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I'm not nearly as big a guy as you, but I just don't mind helping people move. I'd rather do some lifting that actually has a purpose, so many times I've been working it thinking "There is no point to this." Also it can be very social, but even that's not all I like about it. One time I was in New York and side guy was moving into a 5 story walk up and a was waiting for a table. I just jumped in and started to help him. The guys dad was with him and he came in and paid for my and my wife's meal after. Didn't need to do it, but I've always gotten good dividends from helping people move.
Helping guys move, sure.
Helping girls move, more iffy.
Can confirm similar situation. Being muscular and big , people automatically assume your role is to help them move .
In my lifetime I learned there are no such things as female friends. They never DO anything for you at all. They don't even initiate anything themselves either.
For women, I do not believe they are in fact capable of friendship. I believe they only see other people, and this includes other women, as tools for social ends. What I mean by that is as long as you have high social status, and this is different than SMV, they then want to be known as your "friend" because it gains them a part of that status.
So while you have high status, they will make a big show of being your friend, maybe even hook you up with other women and talk you up.
The second that goes however, whether through loss of a job or something else, they are themselves gone. Now their own marriages may not end that, unless their husbands put their fut down, but eventually if you don't get married the trajectory generally gets too far off in terms of social status (certain social circles which women aim for require all men to be married).
Anyway, women are a waste of time for friendship or any long term relationships.
No one seems to see that this is a great example of psychological projection.
She's projecting her bad behavior onto him while looking for social validation from other entitled cunts and white knights.
"I feel used", who used whom ? I mean seriously she's too stupid to breathe at this point if she didn't notice that he was into her.
Are all women that clueless? There is no way she could not reflect on her own damn post while typing it.
It's not only that. The problem is that women are extreme opportunists and narcissistic . Far beyond men to the point where it's chaotic in society. This state of women is causing a lot of socioeconomic problems in this world. The brainwashing and cuddling that little girls go through while growing up is the result we are seeing now .
The current state of women is going to cause a major change soon. This utopia ( gynocentrism ) made especially in women's favor is not going to last . TRP is not only waking up men ; it is also waking up a few women .
Yes they are and no she would be unlikely to reflect on her post.
I usually do this to a woman if she doesn't reciprocate any kind of attention I give her. I work up a good rapport and flirt etc but if she doesn't want to hang out or attempt to seek positive attention from me I just cut her off 100%. It's like hitting them in the feels with a bat, kind of an emotional rejection they feel when someone who would talk to them on a regular basis just cuts them off.
Come on. Where are the marriage counseling comments.
Pls
So, I see a lot of the responses say something along the lines of
I don't get this. I mean, if the guy is looking for a LTR with her and thinks he may like her, why wouldn't he want to get to know her first before deciding to ask her out. Maybe it took him that long to build up the courage to ask her out. They work together, so maybe he didn't want to come off as a creepy guy and ask her out right when they first met.
This EXACT thing happened with me and a girl I was "friends" with. As soon as I started distancing myself because she didn't want anything from me except being an orbiter after getting rejected, I was suddenly "an asshole". All the way until I stopped talking to her completely I'd see her bitching about "another nice guy who turned out to be an asshole" on Facebook almost weekly. No bitch, you:
He was operating on a covert contract like a typical nice guy and she sees it for what it is.
Yes, he's an asshole. All Nice Guy™ are bluepill self-deluding assholes.
I'm telling you the same I told some other guy above:
You're buying into the malicious spin feminists have put on that story.
Consider the following:
NMMNG is right insofar as the nice guy sets up "covert contracts", in that case the "I treat you like I would treat my girlfriend, and by accepting that treatment, you're signaling me that you would be receptive to my advances". However, as this contract implies, the girl is de facto entering it as well out of her own free will, because, as I said, it's usually blindingly obvious when a nice guy is into you - so one can hardly talk about the guy being the asshole here. Hypothetical scenario: if a girl drove 2 hours each evening to give you blowjobs for free and cook you dinner afterwards, would you be surprised if she finally confessed her feelings to you? And would you call her an asshole if she cut contact after you rejected her?
If anything, I'd argue that the love interest in that equation is the asshole (unless she's truly clueless... yes, some girls are actually that dense and not just manipulative) since she's willing to milk the guy's attention for what it's worth while always hiding the "plausible deniability"-ace up her sleeve should the guy decide to finally come forward. And then run to reddit to create a "woe is me"-post.
Here is a post of a woman who is aware of these covert contracts and how to deal with them.
"I helped her move, so she will in return fall in love with me."
Can't believe I was doing the same.
I'm sure 95% of us have done similar.
Unintentional assholes, but assholes nonetheless.
Don't tell me she didn't know that he was into her and that she wasn't willfully using him.
Oh not saying that at all. I was talking about how Nice Guys don't understand how covert contracts (among other things) make them seem like assholes.
Thank god someone in this thread gets it. This nice guy was using favors as a smokescreen to get close to her, hoping that he'd magically escape the friend zone he placed himself in and end up winning his princess over.
Be straightforward with your intentions, but also have social graces. If you fuck up this balance, you'll either come off as a "creep" or a "pervert" or you'll end up on the other side of the spectrum, being a "nice" guy that's operating under the smoke and mirrors of "friendship" to try to get what you really want.
No idea how anyone in this thread is defending his behavior. Unfortunately, the guy probably doesn't know any better than to turn himself into an errand boy for his queen in hopes that she'll one day knight him, but at the same time, let's not place the blame solely on the woman here.
You know who has to be covert when it comes to getting what they want? Women. Don't be a woman, don't hide your intentions.
I don't think he's an asshole. Just misguided. He's probably been taught and told by every women in his life that if he does this shit women will like him and want to date him. He's stupid, not an asshole. At least from the sound of it he is somewhat smart and not lashing out about it and seems to be at least trying to focus on other women (or at least not wasting more effort on her).
She can and did see through that smokescreen, but continued to accept those favours with no reciprocation. So, yeah, when she is the who "feels used" when he pulls those favours away, the blame does lie on her. I still think the guy in this story is an idiot, however and have little to no sympathy for his stupid ass, I merely take exception to the girl feeling like a "victim". That's what everyone here is incredulous about.
To quote what someone else said in a thread a few weeks ago, "when you're used to special treatment, normal treatment seems unfair." Paraphrased but definitely applies in this case.
She shouldn't feel used and it is ridiculous. If anything, the guy should. At least he finally made the right move and withdrew his resources.
This. 100 percent this. Acting like like a woman will not get you laid and sure as the iron is heavy listening to women will not get you laid.
Exactly, it was a pure covert contract from the word go.
"Did I make friends with a "nice guy"? Was he really just an asshole all along only pretending to be nice to get in my pants? Or did I really hurt him that much when I rejected him?"
Yes, yes and also yes. A nice guy asshole who wanted a relationship and got butt hurt when you said no.
You guys are as bad as the relationships bitches. None of his behavior sounds like a "Nice Guy," except helping her with stuff. He didn't call her a bitch or a slut when she rejected him, he didn't talk shit about her to other people or to her face. He accepted her answer and diverted his resources to better prospects. He was mature and friendly throughout the whole thing.
only reason he was nice was because he wanted to get into her pants. godamn man people should listen to black phillip show more often this would all be explained easily.
you're better off being an asshole and saying i want your pussy and sparking anger in a woman than covertly trying to get into her pants by doing errands for her. It's better to be hated, than to be her errand boy (beta orbiter).
It sounds to me like they were friends and he caught feelings somewhere in the middle of it. He expressed those feelings honestly and maturely, accepted her rejection, and found better ways to spend his time.
This entire sub is philosophy designed around getting into women's pants. Let's not pretend that the methods being different makes the motivations any more noble.
What?! That's classic nice guy. Do stuff for her and then when you finally get the courage ask her out. Also he try to fuck where he works.
No, not the case at all.
If he were truly a friend, he wouldn't have to "divert his resources to better prospects." Why? Because a friend does things out of kindness and selflessness, not because the other person is a "prospect."
Of course he would. No woman wants to date someone who is doting on some other chick. If he kept doing those things, or he turned on her completely after the rejection he'd be pathetic. He did neither.
You're massively missing the point.
There can be no attraction between a man and a woman who have a friendship, else the friendship is a smokescreen to cover up the true intentions of one of the parties. While he did make the only sensible move after being rejected, the whole relationship was based on ulterior motives. Had he just approached her and been upfront with her from the get-go, he would not have wasted his resources trying to sneakily obtain what he really wanted out of the relationship with her.
I'm not suggesting that the woman is in the right at all, I'm just focusing on the part that matters - the man's behavior (the behavior that can actually take a lesson from), which was manipulative. I'm actually sort of shocked by the comments in this thread trying to defend his behavior.
She knew all that already. She still chose to take advantage of it, then whinge that he's an "asshole" when he withdrew. I've got no sympathy for either party in this story. But it all reads like a damned good troll tbh.
I smell a troll. I know things like this do happen but this is just too perfect in conforming to the stereotype.
The stereotypes exist for a reason.
We've all done similar enough to this, I know I have. I can iterate exactly the same story with a girl who I was crazy about and helping for a while. Did lots of stuff for her in the hope it would get us closer, asked her out, got told no, withdrew support. She probably complained to her friends about it.
The covert-contract is "here is how amazing I would be to date, not like those other sexy assholes who just fuck you till you orgasm screaming fireworks, but instead I'll help you with a lift and show you how to do your homework".
It's totally understandable that men do this, given how much women scream that it's what they want, and gender is a social construct and therefore she's telling the truth just like I would. (Heavy sarcasm).
yup, been there, learnt my lesson
I did just about the same as this guy at one stage, also politely cut ties when I saw it wasn't going anywhere, also had all manner of shit generated by her (to mutual friends) when she figured out her little helper and emotional tampon wasn't there anymore. In her mind she just couldn't why I would be so mean to her. In my mind, I just stopped investing in a losing bet.
The textbook is often exactly right.
I hate to agree, but I do.
I suppose it could just be a throwaway from some basic bitch.
I know a lot of guys on this sub could easily have been 'Greg', so it is certainly plausible, but something seems strange about it for sure.
Maybe I'm just a cynical asshole though... lol
Not to mention that the account is only 8 hours old, and has made no subsequent posts after the OP.
Troll alarms bouncing off the fucking walls.
Troll for sure. A good one, but still a troll.
Why? A guy who hasn't swallowed how assertive he can/should be, but who isn't actually beta and won't take shit.
That describes me before I became a bit more assertive.
The post hit every possible point to enrage people. It was crafted too perfectly, real people wouldn't hit all of those key points that make them look like a stuck up bitch. If it was real she would have at least mentioned something she did for him, just one thing minimum. Also it is a brand new account and I didn't see any responses in the comment section from OP. No comments means the troll is sitting back watching people go into a frenzy. If OP comments they have to answer questions which will expose them as a troll.
Her "asshole" definition- No longer does favors for me Also see: lives a normal life without considering helping me
I'm actually quite positively surprised at the reactions in r/relationships. Though I feel this is because 90% or more of the ppl writing the reactions have been in the situation of the guy and really can't take sides with the girl in this particular case because they can relate.
Wow.. So the guy actually has a life and can't help her move or chat on Skype as often; so he's an asshole?
It's absurd how so many women think they're entitled to boyfriend/husband privileges without wanting to actually date the dude. I find it hilarious that she has the nerve to label him a "nice guy" because he has a common understanding of human relationships and boundaries.
I feel like a proud parent when my sock puppet r/relationships posts make it to the front page of trp
He finally wised up and quit being an emotional tampon. He learned the more you do for women the less you get back. This is why I don't have relationships with women. If I'm not hitting it, I don't know you. Have a nice day.
That was a refreshing top comment. A sigh of relief, maybe the world is coming to it's senses about these self-cenetered arrogant cunts.
She's entitled but he also should've just made a move initially. There is absolutely no point of not making a move, being really nice to a girl and thinking she'll take a hint. She won't and even if she does, she probably won't make a move. Waiting 8 months to make a move just eats up your time and makes you look weird. It's also a lot easier to move on from it if you actually want to be friends with the girl if you make a move early on. I'm not at all blaming him or her here. I'm just saying girls generally don't make moves and not being upfront won't give her mixed signals.
Guys aren't niceness machines that you put nothing into and nicest falls out.
I feel like this is a troll post. I think every girl (especially if she's 22) knows about this stuff, she knows what and why happened.
Second reason why I think this is troll, is because this account only made this post and has no comment whatsoever.
People make throwaway accounts for rel and db the whole time. Probably hasn't replied because her personal narrative just gid assraped when she was expecting nothing but support.
Do not underestimate The Power Of Hamster.
Why is she even pretending to be confused with a post on the internet? To justify her position of course. She knows what's happened, she knows in her post what has happened, why is she even talking about it? To exonerate herself. To be told that he is in the wrong, not her. It's female self-talk and groupthink. All to make her feelz better.
Troll or not, this kind of thing happens a million times a day in the Western world.
I think she was probably seeking validation of her bad behavior too.
I'm a fan of The Biggest Problem in the Universe, and they just covered helping friends move recently: http://thebiggestproblemintheuniverse.com/episode-63/
But there are a ton of female responses there telling her she's full of shit.
Women are moralistic to each other. There's a common misconception here that women support each other. Not really. Now take that to the logical conclusion (which is how I figured out game before there it was all over the interwebz) and ask whether they could be ganging up on men. No of course not, they don't cooperate for any reason.
See a set? Blast it open. Let them hamster against each other. Have fun. You're put on this earth to dominate those situations.
You gotta understand, women have the memory of goldfish. They don't remember what you did for them 2 weeks ago. They develop a sense of entitlement. This broad expected to be treated like his girlfriend yet she wasn't his girlfriend. Women need to understand that we (men) value our time, space and attention like they value their bodies. Why is she entitled to his time? Hell, even if she were his girlfriend she wouldn't be entitled to anything.
Predicted cycle:
Guy becomes asshole to her, ignores her --> Girl becomes attracted to guy --> Guy sees he has another chance, reverts to simp behavior --> Girl loses attraction, eases him back into friendzone
I can't blame her that people fall for this. But come on.
I blame poor (or no) parenting by fathers for shit like this. Obviously her dad never taught her the value of a man's time and labor.
I lit into a male co-worker recently when he mentioned that he'd had a "Princess Party" for his daughter. Setting every man in her life up for a lifetime of servitude.
It's not about what she genuinely thinks or feels.
She didn't get her way, which is to say, didn't get to have her cake and eat it too. Didn't get to reject him and still have him serve her. She wanted to FEEL THE POWER.
So she's just lashing out at him, that's all. It's not the content that is being communicated, per se.
Female friends are just girls you haven't fucked yet.
The comments were very surprising. I thought for sure Greg was gonna be called the devil.
that post has to be a troll because nobody could be that stupid. Pretty sure that post is just flamebait.
Lol what the hell does she do for him? Nothing. Guy decides he doesn't want to be a doormat anymore and he is the asshole. Make sense! /s
why is the tag blue? I thought the guy was pretty red?
No self-respecting man would do all of the shit he did for her unless it was a mutualistic relationship in some way.
Her definition of friendship is pretty awesome, probably because she's never really had a friend. You gotta love that she feels used when the gravy train stops.
Never seen a hamster wheel spin this fast. Looks like its frozen in time.
It's like... why don't you understand that you don't deserve for someone to do nice things for you when you bring nothing to the table. If someone starts being nice to me out of nowhere, I immediately know that they want something. So when a girl let's a guy be nice to her, do all this shit for her like listen to her... that's not him being a friend, because if you were friends, you'd do so for him too. So when he asks you out and you turn him down but still want to be friends, my only reaction is that you're either completely heartless or a complete idiot. How do I not look at that and think you are a being that I need to completely dominate?
Life is made up of only so many minutes.
It's best to spend at least some of that time where the happy is.
I had one of those one time, she thought a fancy dinner at a fancy restorant was standard procedure. When she got asked if i was 'him' she presented me as just a friend. I cleared things up that night, turned out i was in some kind of a race against another guy to win her favor, so if she chose the other guy she will always keep me as a friend, win win situation for her.
At that time i was really into halterophilie and taking good care of me, so a lot of girls were hiting on me, but i liked this 5/10 late 20s because she was cool. I hated myself because i let it turn that way, thats the week i found TRP.
She sent me a message after two weeks asking if we could still be friends, 'yeah sure'.
What the fuck are we doing on the front page?
"You don't get the benefit of boyfriend-like behavior from someone you will only accept platonic friendship with." - Sadly, many guys (so many of my own friends do this) treat chicks like their girlfriends, except without the sex of course. There is no shame in not wanting to be in the friend zone with certain females and it doesn't make you a womanizer.
classic case of women being in denial about the friendzone. i wonder if she has ever in her entire life met a non family member that was so kind to her without wanting something in return. oh but this guy, he's just a nice guy right.
Post count 1.
Username lalalala2222.
Yeah this totally happened, how can people think this is a real post. Not an ounce of credibility, OP didn't even try and spice up the typical female using beta nice guy stereotype format with such a generic story.
Or OP is the most entitled twat that has every graced this planet. Either scenario, this thread shouldn't see the light of day.
The real lesson to take from this is that men don't have any need of women outside of relationship / plate status. The faster you let them know this, the better off you'll be.
Funny thing is a coworker of mine, who I have been flirting with non stop, asked me to help her move just last week. I replied my girlfriend wouldn't like that & bullshitted my way out of it. Even though she knows I'm single. So instead she asks another male colleague who reluctantly agrees. She then proceeds to mock said colleague for being a whimp not 10secs later... You can't make this shit up. It goes without saying this girl already had her boyfriend helping her move.
I like how the man's feeling account for nothing. In BP world, taking the shot (Rollo's terms for Sniper strategy) makes the male very vulnerable. He has exposed his interest for the female to accept or reject at her choosing. In this woman's mind, his romantic feelings were secondary, perhaps even tertiary.
A male's sex drive is received based upon how well the woman likes him. If he's chadding it up, then drop the pantaloons. If he's Darth Beta, then it's dirty and gross and "can't you accept me as a person." Reverse the genders, and the man would be a clueless ingrate. "Why can't he just get it?"
In the end, never enter the woman's realty. Giving her that power usually delegates you to the role of stage hand when you really want to be the male lead.
When you gaze into the Solopsism, the Solopsism gazes back.
That was an awesome "Best comment"!
He managed to explain the secrets of the universe to her in two paragraphs, without giving her a trigger (note: she mentioned "being depressed and being on meds for emotional issues.......), and without directly calling her out on her own vapid selfishness. He even included the phrase "healthy boundaries" in there so SJW's and feminists alike would avoid confrontation. Superb!
There's another post on relationships where a soon-to-be bride is to take a polygraph test as part of a prenup, and it turns out her count is a wee bit higher than she had let on. Well a great deal higher. But she's not that girl anymore!
I saw a post like this by a woman who was in a relationship with the guy. "Hes nice to me but I dont see him being as nice to anybody else, it seems two-faced", ungrateful fucking curr, girls like this will scrape out a fault no matter what you do.
I'm betting she's moving apartments so much because what ever guy she's fucking at the time is the guy whose apartment she's living at. Then she gets kicked out when when he's done with her or vise versa. From the sounds of her she doesn't exactly seem like a person that is self supportive.
I'm starting to understand why women feel this way about "nice guys".
The fact is that nice guys are dishonest about their intentions. They give them gifts and do nice things but they don't do it for free.
They expect something in return.
When an honest man gives you a gift, he doesn't expect you to give him something in return. A nice guy does and acts agressively when his needs are not met in return.
Well then this is an honest man by your definition. For a long time he did things for her and as comments there note, didn't seem to get much in return. Then when she rejected him, he didn't do anything aggressive, just stopped providing nice things but didn't ask for any return on the nice things he had already done.
I think he became honest with his intentions after she rejected him. Good for him though.
As others have stated, boys are taught by society that they need to 'court' women, to show how great they are as LTR material.
The 'nice guy' in the story has shown her his Provider side, and then stated his romantic intentions once the ground work of the relationship has been laid. In all likelihood, it's what he's been told his whole (BP) life, I know that's what I'd been told; I look back at my own life, pre-RP and cringe.
I just have to say, that comment at the end was absolutely priceless.
Whenever I see shit like this, I always wonder whether or not it's real. Surely no one can be that stupid?
You want a joke? 21st century western civilization (women)
If she wanted all that attention without worrying about having to turn him down, she should have goten a gay male friend. No, she got herself involved with a guy that was interested in her whom she could have cared less about if it didn't benefit her. Did she seriously think that there were no straight single guys that would do those things for her just to be nice?
I am glad people in the comment section weren't white knighting her.
The best comment is perfect.
He put in an investment and didn't see a return, why throw more money after bad hoping it will change. Guys don't have girl friends we don't want to bang.
Wow, every sentence is about what he did/can do for her. What the fuck did she bring to the table in the friendship?
Kinda refreshing to read the comments and see the relationships sub very slowly but surely catching on.
I didn't read them all, but a lot of the comments towards the top are actually good.
Authentic nice guys do have a covert contract:They are nice to you and want to be treated without disrespect. Who knows how she treated this guy for real--used him to bragplain to Chad, joked about how he is her bitch with her vapid friends, etc. He just moved on. They don't owe him respect, he doesn't owe them his time. If I am nice to someone, I don't expect jack, but a little courtesy. I don't get that, then F them. I am done. They don't graduate to anything besides maybe acquaintance or "Herd."
Wow - even the comments on the original thread are fairly on point. It does emphasize though
Covert contracts are not game.
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I have less respect for him than I do for her.
As a matter of fact, he did well after she rejected him. It´s something.
He's an asshole because he stops being her friend? That's an interesting definition of asshole.
I think you meant doormat, not friend.
Yeah OK my comment works that way too.
I like the one where the girl rejects a guy, then he became "distant, standoffish and rude", then she falls for him.
he was being overly nice to essentially get into her pants...it doesnt work this way.
He is a bit of an asshole. He's trying to get with her by acting like a friend. Thats a bit misleading. Some girls genuinely believe guys and girls can be friends. In otherwords gentlemen, if you want pussy do not be a friend to a woman. State your intentions from the beginning by the way you act around her. If you treat her like a friend hoping you will get laid I can assure you that you wont.
You know OP, this guy might be ready. Granted it's not rock bottom, however he can be saved.
The guy should of been straight up with her. Especially after the rejection. Nothing to lose at that point. But he was losing the second he started with her most likely.
Why? He's doing fine. She's spending all the time thinking about him. He is not wasting any time thinking about her any more.
I guess but 8 months is a long time to be doing all that for a do nothing bitch.
Yeah well he should have acted quicker for his own sake. Not because he did anything wrong to her. I didn't understand your comment.
Actually... those boundaries are quite unhealthy. I would hard next this broad in less than 8 hours of interaction with her. Zero help from me in any way or form before at least a blowjob to get things started.
We can get it on or you can get the f* out. Simple? Simple.
A woman that really wants you, wants you from the first moment on. You should shit test soon and shit test often, push her sexual boundaries.
The guy is an asshole. He was only nice to get in her pants. Actually nice people don't do that.
It's like if if your buddy "Steve" offered to paint your house, but then halfway he asks if he could use your pool in the back yard, and when you don't let him, he just stops painting your house and won't respond to phonecalls. That dude would be a dick.
Well in this case is seems like Steve painted the house, trimmed the bushes and Installed a new foundation all for nothing you blue pill swine
Maybe, maybe not. Seems to me that the way he behaves to her would determine whether he's an asshole, not his inner intentions at various times which we can only guess.
At no time was he impolite. He simply distanced himself when she rejected him. He was a friend, then he stopped being a friend, but he didn't do a single asinine thing. I think he did it just right, although he might have wasted less time if he knew earlier he wanted a relationship.
How would you feel if you and I were friends and you found out that I was only your friend because I wanted something from you? There's a word for people who behave this way and it's called "manipulative." I believe you put quotations around the wrong word in the title, OP. They don't belong around "asshole," they belong around "friend."
The comments in this thread are extremely revealing and show just how many people here are still in the anger phase. Jumping to blame the woman is not the right move. If you know anything about women from the sidebar, you'll know that they make horrible friends and most can't think outside of their own little world anyways. That is their problem, not ours, and the only control we have over that is to choose whether or not we participate in a friendship with such a person. We should not defend this manipulative nice guy faggot at all. A man is upfront and honest with his intentions. This boy was not, yet somehow we're going to focus more on the woman's behavior than the boy's.
If you are anything less than upfront and honest about your intentions, you are manipulative and cannot be trusted. You are not a friend if you think about what's in it for you. Should you get something out of a friendship? Sure, absolutely. All of my friendships are very positive things that come with their own benefits, but I never do things for my friends purely because I want something from them. That would be a transactional relationship and those are not what friendships should be.
And you never were friends with a girl that you later developed feelings for?
Everyone is assuming he wanted to ask her out from the get go and knew what his "intentions" were a priori. Maybe she was just the "new chick from accounting that seems pretty cool" and he wanted to hang out with her to see where it went.
Two possibilities.
The first is what you've suggested, that they had a friendship and he caught feelings. There's nothing wrong with that. I wouldn't crucify someone for that.
The second is that he became "friends" with her and started doing favors for her in an attempt to win her over. My reason for suspecting that this is the case is the fact that the friendship seems incredibly one sided from the evidence in the OP. It goes on and on about things that the guy did for her, yet never mentions anything mutual about the friendship.
Yes, this means the girl allowed him to do favors for her. This also means that he only did these things in order to worm his way in, though. I would absolutely call that manipulative behavior.
The only defense that holds up for the guy is the fact that feminism and society has taught him that this is how you build attraction and he can't be blamed for his misunderstanding of how women work.
I can't applaud his ending of the relationship, though. Yes, it was the right move, but it should've come much sooner, and would have, had he been upfront with his intentions. Instead, he cloaked them under the guise of friendship, endured an extremely one sided friendship, and only chose to end it when he did not get what he wanted. That is not the behavior of a man, but it is a possibility that one day he will understand that you do not get a woman by doing favors for her or by being a "nice guy."
Except most boys are taught to "court" pretty ladies they want a LTR with by doing favors, etc.
I just am a little irked with the people who are trying to characterize his actions at a base level of "i help you move, you give me sex." He may have genuinely liked her and was doing nice things to try and impress her/show he was worthy LTR material. (understanding as we do, that this is not going to work...but calling him a "manipulative faggot" is a little overkill, as he is simply doing what society has told him to do)
Wanting something from me, meaning helping you move and covering your shifts? Dat projection doe.