If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
Growing up, my father had this poem framed and put up in 3 rooms of my house. I was basically raised through it. It's gold. It's more than just a poem, they're introductory guidelines. What are you thoughts ?
The essence of stoicism right here. This is one of the most important lines in the poem. The external never affects the internal.
And the base requirement for frame. It's not always about the events, it's the inner interpretation that affects you.
A youtube comment from one of the linked videos in this thread also says "It's essentially the philosophy of Seneca, in a poem."
Question though, i'm all for stoicism but shouldn't we act accordingly? i mean we have emotions for a reason and i seriously think we take the stoicism thing over board, YES we should keep our composure if needed too but all i'm saying is we should also enjoy the " high " of the instant gratification of temporary happiness sometimes, it does feel good, i'm agreeing with you but i hope you get what i'm trying to say.
Typically within stoicism it's not that we can't enjoy the "high" we feel from success, it's that we shouldn't base our happiness on it.
For example, you start a business or become a great investor and as a result, you have become wealthy. Stoicism doesn't discourage this, nor does it discourage you being happy with your wealth. It discourages you basing your happiness on you being wealthy. Your happiness comes from you. Some wealthy stoics regularly practiced poverty for this reason. I hope that helps answer your question.
all i'm saying though is like, don't forget to live and enjoy life, everything you said is completely true but it's not bad to enjoy a successful moment now and again, it's what makes us human, hope you see what i'm trying to say
Like he said, you CAN enjoy it. But you must except that it will pass, and so will sorrow. 'This too shall pass' is the essence of stoicism.
Not being jubilated or eviscerated by things outside of our control often gets construed to mean we shouldn't let anything affect us, which is wrong. If your favorite professional football team wins, and you're only a spectator or armchair coach, you really shouldn't feel any pride and joy in it. But if your girlfriend surprises you with your favorite movie to watch on a Friday night, absolutely take pride and joy in the fact you worked hard to cultivate a strong a stable relationship, but don't let yourself fall prey to the thinking those results will simply remain without continuing to put in the work.
correction: "don't let yourself fall prey to thinking those results will remain, forever" Remember, everything can be taken away, and this is not a bad thing (its just life).
you totally miss my point, i'm not saying to rely on it, i'm saying to enjoy the instant gratification sometimes, IN OTHER words don't be a robot all the time, i understand the stoic remain calm and keep your composure, all i'm saying is don't forget to enjoy life.
Let me try to frame my view and see if this makes sense.
Stoicism is the practice of changing what you can and accepting the things you can not. It's living right now in the moment, not fettering about the future(you can't change it, it's not here yet) nor regret the past(it happened, out of your control so move on. Right now, in this moment, you can change your mindset and change your outlook. Here's an example:
You start a business and it takes off and you make a shit ton of money. Right now, you have tons of money. You sit back and enjoy it. You feel euphoria. YOu feel good. Then, after a couple minutes/hours, you sit back and reflect what just happended. You enjoyed it, you felt good, and now you think about it. Is it a constant flow of millions in cash that will last forever? no. So decide that you will, at this moment, do whatever you can to generate more money. Relish the feeling, feel your body and enjoy the happiness. Your rational thinking knows it won't last, but you know in this moment you're happy. here is the critical moment like others have said. Don't let this be your sole source of happiness in the future. Don't base your happiness, or wait for it to come, when you think you need to reach this state of wealth again. That's the difference. The ability to udnerstand what is temporary and what you can't control.
Another is when people are arguing politics. You know now from your studies in philosophy and human behaviour that all of us suffer from cognitive dissonance. No matter what you say or do or present how many facts you will not change someone's view about their ideology. So in that moment, you can't control the outcome so you make a rational decision if you're goin gto participate, or not. What you can control is your thoughts and keepng your mouth shut, and you can't control other's views so why bother.
This was basically what i was trying to imply in a nutshell, you worded it better.
Emotion is the wind that moves the sail. The stoic is the calm captain who uses the wind and waves to his advantage.
A stoic doesn't ignore his emotions. In fact since he faces them head on you could say he feels them more intensely, but he never lets them toss his ship or tear his sail.
Exactly. Stoicism explains that we will and should feel emotions because we're human but it's up to us how we deal with the emotions and how much it affects our well-being.
I find this stoicism thing a bit disingenuous, honestly. What we really mean is simply 'manly Greek and Roman values'. Stoicism is not about maintaining equanimity - if anything, Epicureanism is more focused on that - but on having a reason for maintaining equanimity, i.e. behaving in accordance with Nature or the Right or what we would think of as God. Yet, most TRPers don't think those things are knowable, especially not in Capitalized form.
Er, NO, that's Not what 'stoicism' refers to.
You need to recheck your definition of the word, "stoicism" and correct your semantic errors.
stoicism ˈstəʊɪsɪz(ə)m/ noun noun: stoicism; noun: Stoicism
1.
the endurance of pain or hardship without the display of feelings and without complaint.
synonyms:
patience, forbearance, resignation, lack of protest, lack of complaint, fortitude, endurance, acceptance, acceptance of the inevitable, fatalism, philosophicalness, impassivity, dispassion, phlegm, imperturbability, calmness, coolness, cool;
2.
an ancient Greek school of philosophy founded at Athens by Zeno of Citium. The school taught that virtue, the highest good, is based on knowledge;
the wise live in harmony with the divine Reason (also identified with Fate and Providence) that governs nature, and are indifferent to the vicissitudes of fortune and to pleasure and pain.
Like almost everything (especially in psychology), emotions can be adaptive and maladaptive, especially if they're taken to an extreme.
There was a study on racehorses. They found that the best racehorses are those with average proportions. Average is highly underrated. In many ways, average performance comes from extremes, and great performance comes from being very average.
Emotional stability is one of those things where the population average is less than ideal though - generally most people are a bit too emotional. Humans didn't evolve to deal with first world problems.
"Daylight savings is killing me! Uhh, my body thinks it is a whole hour later, I can barely stay up late enough to watch Hawaii 5-0."
Meanwhile in much of the world:
"
Daylight savings isWarlords are killing me! Uhh, mybody thinks it is a whole hour later, I can barely stay up late enough to watch Hawaii 5-0.family is dead"Actually I'd call this the heart of Zen
If + Invictus = Becoming a Man Journey Starter Pack
William Ernest Henley. 1849–1903
Invictus
OUT of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
I thought that was just joining a fraternity starter pack
That's the one I had trouble with for a while.
Then it occurred to me that being able to do it and usually choosing not to is a lot different than doing it just because you can.
"If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you"
Very important point. In all my endeavors, those around me(family and friends) would always try to dissuade me or try to convince me I'm crazy or misguided. Every single time. Whether it was when I started to lift hardcore, travel across the country to find an oil job, or travel to Thailand alone. I remember reciting this line to myself and gaining strength and courage. Fuck the allowance for their doubting though.. at least in this society. Other than a few monks, and probably my old martial arts teacher, I haven't met anyone whose "doubting" was worth taking into account. Everyone elses doubts leads them back to the fucking bottle, couch, or to the teat of their surrogate mothers.
It's a powerful poem and I wouldn't care if I saw it posted everyday. I remember when I first saw it actually, in the hall of some boys highschool I was training at. I just stood in the hallway for a while reading it over.
The part about making allowances is still important in the sense that you acknowledge doubts from others and examine them long enough to see if there's logical backing to them.
If your friend tells you, "You can't jump off that bridge because the water is only 6 inches deep," you have to have a system in place to where you can acknowledge their doubt and realize that they have a solid fucking point and you need to readjust your course.
And if there is no truth to it, like you went out after they said that to you and ran a 10 foot pole into the water and found out it was plenty deep, then you can say, "Fuck em. I know for sure that he's wrong and I can do this no matter what he says."
Yeah I agree with what you're saying as it applies to practical matters, but I'm referring to a different kind of thing.. people trying to doubt your deeper reasons and trying to undermine your confidence or faith. Basically concern trolling. Logic is important, but it's easy to get stuck in circular logic that ends up only rationalizing inaction or destructive habits. My point is that that's all anyone seems to do these days so a DGAF attitude is more necessary than ever.
I interpret the making allowance for their doubting as accepting that some people will not believe in you and might even try to knock you down but you simply internally understand that this will always be the case, and just push past it and don't dislike those who try to take you down
My Dad had framed Coolidge quotes. Here is the one I remember most:
Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not: the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
Calvin Coolidge
Love this one.
I've put it above my desk at work.
Who is Coolidge? Another president?
The line about not talking about your losses is good
It's an important lesson too. As an engineering manager I walk a fine line with my employees (especially younger). I've been in my industry for over a decade and have lots of failures.
Success is for discussion. But failure is for lessons.
I want to learn from you, I'm an entry level engineer interviewing for a management position.
You're saying we need to filter words and say certain things to certain people? Or do you talk about success and failure the same?
Just my two cents but, definitely have your interview and I wish you luck.
But consider spending time as an engineer. Leaders need time in the shoes of those they lead. You really need a decent history of experience to draw on when difficulties arise.
I'm not bashful about talking about my previous accomplishments and the challenges I've overcome as an engineer. If I bring up a particular failure it's to build empathy and share a brief lesson.
don't go into management yet. You need more failures under your belt.
lovely poem. here's another, from the dao de jing:
Ancient masters of excellence had a subtle essence,
And a depth too profound to comprehend.
Because they were impossible to comprehend,
I will try to describe them by their appearance.
Cautious, like crossing a river in the winter.
Wary, as if surrounded by strangers.
Dignified, like a guest.
Yielding, like ice about to melt.
Simple, like uncarved wood.
Open, like a valley.
Obscure, like muddy waters.
Who can wait in stillness while the mud settles?
Who can rest until the moment of action?
He who holds on to the Way seeks no excess.
Since he lacks excess,
He can grow old in no need to be renewed.
[permanently deleted]
super dope. i like the whole book :D
Reminds me a little of Desiderata. Link ... I have that framed in my apartment, but got it from my father, too.
Yes, Desiderata and this poem are two absolute Classics!
I've linked both here several times
Was losing all my friends. Was losing them to drinking and to driving. Was losing all my friends. But I got 'em back.
Love this, what connection do you see?
This is a song by brand new, haha. The song quotes heavily from this poem and makes it seem a lot sadder than it actuslly is. Sowing season is the name.
Sorry should have explained this better; Fuck Yeah Brand New! I just didn't correlate this with the lyrics immediately, now I see.
I am now a man. At least now I can say that I am trying. I hope you will forgive Things I still lack.
Shit! I love Brand New and I never saw the connection
Yeah im surprised i saw it. Its really just the verse.
If you can bear to hear the truth that you have spoken twisted up by knaves and made a trap for fools. If you can bear to watch the things you gave your life to broken, and stoop and build them up with worn out tools.
Those are probably the most powerful lines in the poem so it makes sense. Its also a good way to remember those lines if you ever want to feel fancy and recite them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lvL4Bzyumg very inspiring
Has anyone seen the film 'Mike Basset - England Manager', Here ill attach a clip. This is my favourite scene in ANY movie, and it is about this poem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TPVtl6Xoew
Ladies and gentlemen, England will be playing four four fucking two.
Another one I love. Don't remember where I found it though.
"Never quit, never surrender
Forever try, until I die
To brave the storms that
Life shall bare,
Someday I'll fly where eagles dare"
England will play 4 4 fucking 2!
Haha read the whole thing in his voice
Been there.
Operational principles. Yes.
In Canada upon graduating, engineers participate in a ceremony meant primarily to highlight their ethical responsibility. This poem is read and a copy is given to the new engineers.
That ceremony, and the poem, were written by the same Rudyard Kipling. "The ritual of the Calling of an Engineer" is a great example of how a value system can be reinforced through ritual.
Love this poem. My personal favourite:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtBdiNghl7c
Michael Caine reading and Nigel Farage montage. You might disagree with him politically but he has balls.
Farage is the shit
Love him!!!
and Caine knows how to narrate like a champ
Give them both a coat!!!
well I'm about 80% mature and know better my weaknesses haha. This is great.
What's so bad about looking too good? Are we talking like pink fur coat with multiple Cuban chains?
Be humble. There a common saying 'speak less than you know, earn more than you show' which plays into this
Love it. This is a new on to me. Kipling was never much on my radar.
My 6th grade teacher gave this poem to us, and it still is one of my favorites of all time.
What does this part mean? I'm not sure how to interpret it
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Don't waste time. No idling.
it means if you have a time (minute) in your life when you feel fear or doubt, rather than just pass that time doing nothing, even in those rough times (unforgiving minutes) use every second of that time to move forward, and keep going after what you want.
in other words, its easy to go after what you want when life is easy, everything is going your way, but also use every second to go forward in the rough times, or when its not so easy, or so clear, or when everyone else isn't there cheering you on
I interpret it as be productive and not idle or a time waster.
Fun fact: in all professional translations to Russian the line:
Changed to:
or
Interesting indeed. You could say that this is because of socialist feminism, but it goes deeper than that. мужчи́на is very... prosaic and bland. You can tell it to someone in a context of "be a man!", but would have much less of an "inspiring", and much more of a "condescending" sound to it. Less "face your destiny" and more "ask her out already".
Then you have муж , but that sounds archaic, as in "important older man". Although, from that comes a verb that's a better equivalent to "be a man", мужаться . .... I think that if the new wave of conservationism progresses, we might still see a translation with that word.
Always fascinating how environment, thinking and language are all interconnected.
Awesome poem, and WAY more inspirational than this guy's version of "If"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poz6W0znOfk
Haven't read that in 30 years. It's so alpha male. I'm so far away ...
You know how I know I've been reading this sub too long? When newcomers post the same damn poem over and over again. That being said, this repetitiveness illustrates the potency of this literature and how much note we should attribute to it.
I've been reading this sub for a few years. This is the first time I've seen this poem.
Alt-right youtuber analyses 'If' by Kipling.
Aside from this and 'Invictus' another brilliant and stoic poem is 'Those Kingly Days' by the British climber George W Young, written after he lost his leg in the First World War. Young walked sixteen miles after his leg had been amputated to avoid capture and then made an artificial leg for himself so he could continue climbing.
http://adventure.bivibag.com/poetry/i-have-not-lost-the-magic-of-long-days
Of broken hearts and dead heroes- Kurt Vonnegut
Breakfasting with champions Sound nutrition for a growing girl Delicious, too. Damn near perfection.
Cat in my cradle sharp claws and foreboding meows prophetically scratching out neural canals filled with songs of the way it goes.
‘Charm’s a scheme’ – opus in D Major ‘Maturity a bitter disappointment’ – e minor fugue and ‘The purpose of a human life, no matter who’s controlling it is to love whoever’s around to be loved’ – Symphony in C
Songs to plug in by Lifted by laughter into the network of lovers and livers thinkers and givers titans and dreamers and friends.
When the overspeed trip triggers it’s good to know that the power’s still flowing ready for next time of plugging in and cooking breakfast.
Guessing you saw Murray's instagram post?
I never liked this part. Seems like a dumb-ass thing to do. Accepting that something bad may have happened to you, and you move on, recover, and don't dwell is a good message, but in this case, it's just being stupid.
Basically it has 2 idea sets. 1st is the courage to take risks in life, and the 2nd would be to move on and not cling to the past if your actions back then turned to be unwise.
Yeah, I get it, but still, I think that section could be better. Maybe more along the lines of you fail at a worthwhile endeavor, not just lose ALL your cash on a game of chance.
well, it's time your began writing better than this guy -- How would you say the same in so few words? IF only you could ...
it's easy to be a critic But it's much harder to produce something 'worthy of criticism'. Go on, show us what you're made of.
That's NOT what Kipling meant and if you can only read it that way ... I feel sorry for how you "assume" Kipling was referring to "cash and gambling"!
Why 'project' your beliefs into this man's words, which millions have extolled?
and IMO are "self explantory" and in no way suggest that one should " lose ALL your cash on a game of chance."
Listen dick, I've been a fan of this work for most of my life, it doesn't make it the bible. Could I make that stanza better, possibly, but that's not my job, especially not to prove it to you.
Blindly following the teachings of others is not RP, FYI.
EDIT:
By the way, look up "pitch and toss" you dumb shit.
ooh, you angry bro?
lol ... point the finger sunshine ... you've got 3 pointing back!
Heres a video of boxers with that poem being used. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS0POjriQMs personal favourite video
I grew up with this engraved into copper hanging in my room since before I can remember.
After each stage in your life you read this again and a few more lines make perfect sense than the last time you read it.
I needed this now, more than ever. I will regain what i have lost
That sums me up quite nicely actually. I was wondering how red pill inwas, this poem makes me feel like I'm there. whew and does it feel good!
"If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken"
...Bear :) :) :)
Awesome powem, thanks for this.
Obviously a great poem. Maybe even one that should be memorized and recited every morning as an affirmation to what one might inspire to be.
Best reading ever .... Grandpa Simpson from The Simpsons.
I wanted to thank you for posting this. I'm going to read it again and again. This was very moving.
Great YouTube video incorporating this with Arnold lifting https://youtu.be/ptcqyPg1zus
Interesting -- I just went through a Men's Leadership course and this was to be memorized.
I read this poem aloud if anyone's interested: Great poem!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T9zk9bR-00
Do yourself a favor and watch (or convert this to mp3) this video of "If" read by Sir Michael Caine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWvcwVWCcnY
I understand the stress this community puts on avoiding surges of dopamine, etc., and cultivating a more stoic mind, it just seems an impossible to remain neutral in the face of success or failure. I don't think it's wise to attach one's sense of manhood to them, but think that for most men, including many real men, these things aren't impostors at all.
Love it all except the "two impostors just the same." Winning rules and causes a testosterone surge. Losing sucks and causes a cortisol surge.
only if you cared about winning/losing.
thats the point of the poem
While we should strive to do our best, the poem is more discussing events that are outside of our control. Hence the word "disaster" instead of "failure". See my comment above for a bit further analysis.
That is clarifying. I like it better that way.
That's such bullshit, so you live in terms of 'this causes this to spike, this causes this, so I should do this'? That's pretty sad.
I have no sources but I'd wager a strong stoic frame would negate those effects.