Alright, JFMX1996 here, you know the deal.
I finished up the semester and am looking for a job. My dad comes to me today and offers to take me to plow snow with him as a short gig. We had this huge driveway and patio to plow and the entire job just lasted about an hour and a half. We hit it pretty hard and took no breaks, quite a bit of snow.
We finish as it's getting pretty dark, my dad tells me to go knock and tell the lady the price. The total came out to $60. I told her this with a really confident tone, many in these situations often go off telling a price for a job not very sure of themselves and will buckle the second a person questions the price.
She looks at me, and tells me "Just so you know, I once got two guys to do this for $40..." I just smile at her and say "Wow."
An awkward silence ensued. People will usually use some weird past workers experience to try to make you lower your prices. The thing is, if that's really true, no wonder she had to call us and not those two fuckers because who the hell would ever do that entire shit for $20 each. We're a legit landscaping business and do a proper job and work well. The reason some of those guys do that shit is because they must be working illegally or just aren't legit.
Anyway, so beside that ramble, I stare at her and until she goes and grabs her money. She comes back, hands me a $50. I repeat that the price was $60, she asks if I had a $10 bill, that if I have a $10 bill for change she'll give me the $60, otherwise she can't.
Most people would've been alright here and settled for the $50 and let themselves be tossed aside.
I look at her and ask "You really don't have $10 in this big house?"
(She's this old rich lady living in a pretty damn big house).
Eventually, she shuffles away and immediately brings two $5 bills completing the $60. I give her my fathers card and seal the deal.
I tell my dad about the experience and he scoffs and laughs and says she'll have us back the next time it snows.
Always stand your ground not just in the personal world but in the business world. If you're weak, people will take advantage of it in both scenarios.
A year ago I would've been like "Oh, okay, let me talk to my dad and we can work something out..." being all timid and submissive. A year later now being 20 and having been internalizing the Red Pill teachings, that isn't the shit that will go on.
Thanks to what I've learned here I applied the learned assertiveness and it's worked quite well. I plan to incorporate this more frequently in my interactions all around in life and hope you guys can see not to submit so easily to the pressures of others.
Be alpha in your interactions.
Edit: Yes, we negotiated the price before, most would say it was a $70 job but we did it for $60. I went to the door to tell her the price as a reminder because she was going to pay on the spot. Then that whole post happened.
We got a call from a friend of hers today for a job as well.
I actually liked this post. The others are giving you shit cause this post has nothing to do with fucking women, but TRP is also about not taking peoples bullshit which isn't just confined to women or relationships.
This is whats most important, as long as you're improving.
People on here tend to get caught up on sexual strategy to the point that they make it their priority, which contradicts the ideals of TRP.
Yeah, I just take it as the usual ball-busting and laugh along with it. Getting upset won't do you any good. Learning to laugh however, can sort of brighten your day.
From the sidebar:
"The Red Pill: Discussion of sexual strategy in a culture increasingly lacking a positive identity for men."
"Increasingly lacking a positive identity for men". That part stuck out to me as well. If you see here, it's not all just about sexual strategy with women, but a lot of Red Pill is about waking up in general to these delusions of society feeding you this need to be all passive and weak and letting people walk all over you. They offer tons of financial advice here as well, there's even a flair for it. There's been plenty of posts on being Red Pill not just in your sexual endeavors but in others aspects of life such as leadership, befriending others, and succeeding in the business realm by becoming more assertive.
I love that aspect of Red Pill. It isn't just limited to chasing tail but becoming a better, more successful man.
Edit: Taking the concept of withstanding the shit tests of people both from fellow TRPers or clients was pretty cool.
If you haven't read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" go do so. You can get it for free and it's only a ~150 page PDF. I wouldn't consider myself a nice guy, and that's why I put off reading it, but even so there were several ideas that were incredibly helpful for me. Mostly subconscious, heavily ingrained stuff.
Go read it.
Thanks for the suggestion! I'm going to order a couple of Rollo Tomassi books and that book you mentioned as well.
Nice guy attitude has been an issue with me for a lot of my adolescence, so trying to break that right now is key. Red Pill has helped me quite a lot but I also want to get the insight of that book as well.
Essentially, if you think about it, TRP is about becoming an better man and always improve in general.
Honestly I feel like most posts on this subreddit are about how to get laid.
In reality, once you become your own man, there isn't really a "rulebook" or "process" to it.
The cart follows the horse, not alot around here get that.
Getting laid is the byproduct of swallowing the pill, no the end result. That ideal is how you know the true alphas from the pretenders. Ok, you know how to apply the principles to getting pussy. Can you transition them to getting raises, promotions and improving your social and societal status.
That's what separates a mere knight from a king. Aspire to rule your kingdom, not to just fuck the wenches.
Awesome comment. It's absolute truth. Love the metaphor too.
I agree. The people bitching about the face value of the post have a lot to learn about TRP. If you can't read between the lines and see the world as a whole through the red pill lense then why the fuck are you even here?
Cuz their only goal is getting their dicks wet.
Cuz their only goal is getting their dicks wet.
In this case it ironically was still a woman ha
It has everything to do with male-female relationships, for those with ears to hear.
yeah it's a great post. it's not a bad reminder.
This does apply to sexual strategy actually. It's really just a lesson on holding frame and sticking to your standards and expectations.
This is more important than women. This is where your success with women comes from. I was reading a shit test post on here that talked about how everyone does it. It's true, and for many here, myself included, I'd wager that dealing with shit tests from men is more difficult than with women, since there's actual accountability involved.
Anyway it's nice to see a post that actually talks about a real, life, business situation, since we should all be striving towards these things.
A few years ago I got hired to do repo work for a rent to own place. (Never rent to own its a scam) If the customer could pay their past due bill in cash I could let them keep their shit. In a pretty short amount of time my store had the best rate of current accounts in the company. This is because all their people they had before would listen to sob stories and not want to take the shit, but I gave zero fucks. I would unplug full refrigerators and start wheeling them out the door and the customer would suddenly find the cash to pay their bill. Never haggle after the fact, the agreed bill is a contract and taking anything less will make you look like a bitch.
Good shit right there man. People are often swayed by their emotions, but as men we must be guided by reason and logic.
Showing weakness or vulnerability would allow you to be exploited. It's not easy at first but one must flip the switch off and just get the job done and you see how people really are.
I worked in subprime auto finance, went through the companies management program and I did 4 months as a debt collector as part of the rotation. If you don't have a spine, you'll get one real fucking quick when you tell someone they need 3k to get their car back or your selling it and they still owe the deficiency balance.
Work in the mortgage servicing industry myself and started out in collections. It's amazing how people tend to run out of excuses once you tell them their foreclosure sale date.
As an independent contractor. Sometimes you have to track down your guy to get your money. I once worked as hired labour doing some concrete work. And the boss payed out everyone on Friday except for me. Even the guys who only worked one day, while I was there all week. He apologizes and says he'll email me the money. I said I wanted cash, (I didn't have a bank account at the time). I actually had to bike across town to meet him at his house like a week later just to get payed. 700$ cold hard cash. But, damn, if I waited any longer, or put it off, that guy was never going to pay me.
Huge life lesson. Everything you get in life, you have to go out and take.
Respect. If you want something, you have to take it. Know your worth, let no one step on you.
I really liked your post man, pretty insightful. Thanks for that.
Great post, this is the kind of quality content that TRP needs.
One thing I've noticed being self employed is no doesn't always mean no. No usually means try harder. If you keep pushing, you'll always get your way.
It's hard to beat a man who never gives up.
"An awkward silence ensued. "
There's an old saying in sales - he who speaks first loses.
Yeah, I think the discomfort pressures them to say something.
Best thing I ever learned in sales was once you ask someone to buy you shut the hell up and let them talk first.
The "power pause." Extremely effective.
"How much'd you make? You see, pal, that's who I am, and you're nothing. Nice guy? I don't give a shit. Good father? Fuck you, go home and play with your kids."
This is why sales will make you a fucking man.
Most people on here I guarantee make no connection to sales and TRP.
Take no prisoners and break the other person's bullshit at the root. Fantastic RP post, OP.
Exactly. If you don't stand up, people will walk all over you like girls do. If you put a girl on a pedestal, she'll look down on you from it. If you come off as weak, she won't respect you and will walk all over you. The same will happen with a client.
Thanks a lot for the feedback!
I feel slight disgust when people try these tactics with me in business, I feel like saying, really? money means that much that you are happy to sacrifice your integrity for a few dollars.
Some people are so good at agreeing to a black and white price up front only to use advance mental gymnastics to avoid paying on completion.
They really are the dregs of humanity & they cross all subsections of the community. They think they are being clever but all they are doing is pissing off a person that will rape them for every $ they have the next time they ask for a job to be done.
If someone has integrity, trusts me to do the job and treats me with respect, I will pretty much run under a bus to help them out (metaphorically speaking of course)
A cheap manipulative cretin, I will attempt to rip them off in some way down the track just to ensure that their scummy tactics put them at a disadvantage when dealing with me over decent people.
Old people are always stingy as fuck and do stuff like this to see what they can get away with. It's so annoying. Then they feel the right to bitch you out sometimes if you don't give them what they want.
This is TRP related, because like JFM1996 I too have been hit up by FEMALE clients for discounts. They think their learned helplessness gives them some sort of safe spot from which to narrate the world and it's details.
A GF of mine once pointed out that a lot of my clients are women whose husbands pay them zero attention. I paint their kitchen or build their deck and they make up a hundred reasons to interact with the help.
They always add on little 'please' stuff at the end of the job to delay my departure or to keep me hung up extra days. I started saying stuff like "sure, I can get you a price on that"
As a rule, men don't ask me this shit... they are just happy to see the work done
Exactly man, it's funny. I've had it when they've tried wearing something very revealing, showing a lot of cleavage or leg and putting on the sort of sympathy seeking when negotiating the price to kind of seduce me into giving a lower price for work. I don't overcharge, if anything I give pretty good prices on things from what most people say, but I don't go slave pay levels either.
If possible I try to talk to the man in the house of a client because they're a little bit less of a nuisance to deal with. Guy to guy it's kept more gentlemanly in business.
This is a useful post but it just seems like common sense to me. I was selling my video games on Craigslist and some guy and I agree to $80.....he shows up saying he only has $60 and I told him to go take a hike. What a loser
I figured a few other young guys could also benefit from it. Especially the guys like me who barely graduated high school a year and a half ago and have been around this ideology of pandering to others and have grown timid over time.
I will never get that shit. It's insane to me that someone would agree to a price, well knowing they can't/won't actually pay the agreed upon amount.
Good on you, once this happened to me when selling an iPhone. Got pulled over for"speeding" and tell guy I just got a ticket. Casually says I forgot $20. I was like not worth the time to get another $20.
Took the sale and realized this is a trend on Craiglist. Just show up with $20 less than asking price. Then tell them well what do you want me to do do you want to sell it or not.
Lol ATM 4 ft away nope can't use it this is all the money to my name. Haha, these guys get off on such petty wins.
The Life of a Consumer
In sales this is called assuming the close, its pretty funny when you get good at that skill.
Here's a real tip for the business world: don't put yourself in a compromising position. Negotiate before performing services.
In the negotiation, always underpromise. And in the end, simply doing a normal job will give the appearance of overdelivering. You'll look like a magician and you'll have better business referrals. If you do all your business like the OP does, you will get burned. Not by a woman, but by a man who knows how to stand his ground.
So, I was plowing my old lady .... she said not in the ass .... Anyway, I stood my ground
Yeah, to really make a point, use no lube.
BITE THE PILLOW BITCH
You raped your mum? You sick fuck!
You didn't say "No tip bitch?" after you got the 60?
What a miserable old cunt. I wouldn't plow her driveway anymore.
Hahahaha. $60 was good. I bet that's why the $40 guys never came back.
I run a business that treats heroin addicts. I'm the one who answers the phone - thousands of times by now. This is a group of people who by the very nature of their largest issue in life, will do just about anything to get what they want.
Being assertive is everything. Great post.
There is a saying in my mother tongue:
Rich people will teach you how to save.
Good post 20 year old. I like the way you're learning
Thanks man! One step at a time.
You will go far! And we got your back
Cool story, but who starts a job without defining the price first?
They did but she tried to weasel her way out of it
Ahh he must have left that part out and edited it after I said that.
Yea I really don't understand why they didn't agree to a price before starting the work
This kind of shit happened to me all the time in landscaping. You have to have confidence in your work like you said. When you know your value it is so much easier to stand your ground compared to when you are first starting out.
It can apply to game just as easily.
"oh you know once I went home with Chad Thundercock."
"wow..."
(you have confidence in your game with this caliber of girl, if she was really that great she wouldn't be talking to you in the first place. Be strong and patient. don't let them talk you down for less than your worth.)
.....
"ok here's my number"
But of course this is just in layman's terms
She's just haggling. That's where you pull out your square reader and ask for a credit card and don't forget to leave a nice tip!
sexual strategy in snow shoveling; so did you fuck her?
oh, wait; so did you shoot her?
That's amateur shit. I sent her address to rapists.
well done for having a sense of humor and not taking shit personally
seriously, this is as good a lesson as your post; I have taken lesser digs at dudes and seen levels of butthurtery that would make your ears ring
Haha thanks man. Yeah, I don't like to take things personally. Life's no fun when you can't laugh.
I actually laughed when you said "so did you fuck her?"
She's rich and widowed, wouldn't be a bad idea for a sugar mama.
Hahaha
I don't know about literally doing that, but; definitely talk to her, you'll find out some crazy shit
even old women like to be flirted with, like to see a young guy move around and be confident
you might even be helping her move some shit around in her house, she finds something semi-valuable, shares some memories, then she's so moved she gives it to you; it happened to me
Yeah, I get that. Had went with a friend to help a lady move about a year ago when her husband died. We were moving stuff out of the garage and I came across an old Fender Gemini II (classical guitar) and remarked that it was pretty cool. She eventually opened up about how her husband used to love playing guitar, he wasn't the best but it was his passion and so always nice to hear him play.
She gave it to me as a gift, along with a bunch of books (I enjoy reading) and eventually learned how to play the guitar.
Nice agree and amplify on a reddit-bitch ;)
Here is a pro tip: Most people (consumers especially) negotiate in scenarios like this because they THINK they are supposed to.
They have no fucking clue what they are doing. Most people, if you stand your ground like this wont know what to do and will give you what you ask for.
The are negotiating for sport.
Edit: I want to highlight something called the power pause. Super useful on the phone and in person when negotiating.
You ask someone or tell someone a price or to make payment and then shut up. Mute your phone, keep your lips sealed. 90%+ of the time you will get what you are asking for.
People dont know how to deal with silence, especially after a command and will accept to end the awkwardness.
Really appreciate this advice.
Thanks!
I'm going to give you a hard time for 2 reasons....
1) did you not agree to a price before doing the work??????
2) do you know why contractors get paid up front or why you buy something before you use it - its because people will try to rip you off. Should've gotten paid before you did the work
For the record, contractors do not get paid up front. I've been one for 28 years. In my state it's illegal for a contractor to take a deposit amount of more than 25% of the total cost of the job.. However, I do agree with you about price. Even without a written contract, a price needs to be agreed upon in advance of doing the job.
its different where I live.
Contractors demand to get paid 50% up front - partially to offset supply costs and partially to ensure commitment. Because there is a shortage of blue collar workers, many contractors are actually able to demand 100% up front as they are in that much of a demand.
Come to Canada, you'll make 6 figures or if you are really good, 7. Yes, its that crazy.
Great example man. Hope you continue to improve.
Thanks a lot man! Will stick around this awesome community and continue to do so.
Love this post negotiating and haggling is part of business but doing so after the deed has been done is just assholish.
This is a good skill in lots of areas of life. Be comfortable with awkwardness. Many times you can get your point across even better with silence. I use this technique in my business daily.
Agreed. It's slightly mysterious and it's kind of funny to see peoples faces react to just get out of the awkwardness. Both in the business and personal realm.
Hmm, there's a balance to this? I sold an Xbox locally for 120 that was listed for $124.99. We agreed to meet up and on the way there he said he only has 120. ATM's only deposit in 20's so that's understandable. Is it really worth it to haggle for 4.99 at the risk of losing 120?
There's a balance to everything. $5 isn't worth your time and effort to sell it to someone else.
No, to small. Think like $20+. You can do alot with $20 and depends on initial deal that was agreed upon.
$5 is a bit different than a whole $20. That I would've let slide.
Isn't that complete opposite of standing your fucking ground? Letting things slide? If it's just a matter of personal preference about what you can tolerate, what's the point of this post?
Well as you can see, a guy having a legit reason like only being able to get 20's from an ATM is a lot different than letting people walk all over you or try to weasel their way out of a price and cheat you for hard work.
But yeah, there's also the option of telling him to come back when he has an additional $5.
It isn't about simply always being a dick but every situation involves discretion.
People are always taking advantage of your "understanding".
you don't negotiate the price beforehand?
If you had told her $60 before the job started then it would've been understandable to stand your ground, but you finished the job & gave her price of course she's gonna haggle. That's fault on both you and her for not setting a price. However, silence is always key in negotiations; lots of people can't hold that tension in. This is where everything is decided.
Yesterday i called and flipped out on my bank for fucking something up that was their fault. Got $100 credit because i held out when he offered $30.
True stuff. I have three jobs, one as a freelancer, and I never forget this scene from Goodfellas when it comes to the money I earn.
Haha, love that scene. Good stuff!
Great post. This will help me in my side hustle freelance work. I'm never honest when I track my hours, in a bad way (I undercharge). But my clients have returned for more business so I will make a concerted effort to charge them honestly (more hour). Thanks for this dude.
Awesome! Appreciate the feedback.
Best of luck my friend!
My dad and I plow as well but we don't collect the money during the job. We just bill the people later
The old bird, gotta hand it to her haha. She's had all that time to evolve those tactics and that's the best she can do? Not bad tho, not bad.
You coulda cut the old lady a $5 break you cheap bastard.
She understood the first rule of business... Everything is negotiable.
Now that you gave her a hard time (which is actually fine) she might remember the experience as "this cheap dude wouldn't even cut me a $10 break."
In my experience you have to haggle the shit outta service people because the typical one wants to prey on your ignorance of the work involved.
As an example, I once negotiated a $1000 plumbing job down to a conditional $450. Because I knew the work.
In your case, you and your dad busted your ass and on $60 there's really not much room for negotiation. But possibly $5 off would've gained you more in future business than the immediate loss.
If you read this far, really I'm just busting your chops, but seriously this really is an angle to consider in the future.
Yeah its negotiable until you agree on a price and begin the job. Negotiations arent weak but concessions are.
Haha, yeah man, I was laughing after that first line. Appreciate the insight, I'll keep it in mind. All a learning experience.
Good post. I plow snow too and people don't realize what it costs to run a plow truck. They're generally cheap to begin with. Never haggle with prices, if they don't like it they can get themselves a shovel.
also in this regard you can work WONDERS by just telling people yes to what they want to hear at first. "We shouldlve had this deadline last week therhymerr", "I understand completely and agree with you, however we still need this done as soon as possible". you will save yourselfe a world of drama.
Unfortunately, this is something you will deal with in landscaping, unskilled labor. If you learn real skills and apply them in the world, you will make real money.
Yeah, my dad's managed to do it in a way that is actually pretty profitable, but for most people it isn't that way, even more so when competing with people working for practically slave pay.
We usually do all the other advanced stuff most don't though so that's a plus. Over winters we just take it easy and plow snow other stuff like that.
Yes, but you should also agree either a total price or your hourly rate before you start, then everyone knows the score going in.
I don't understand, was the price not agreed upon before the work was done?
this is just a bullshit post until next year rolls through.
you can pull this on women in an LTR because shes invested in you.
in sales its a little different because after this, she isnt seeing you again. she has no reason to invest in you. (unless you do a good job, which will force her to think that treatment is the cost of premium service, in which case, you've made yourself memorable).
i'll admit, you don't get repeat customers by giving a cheaper deal but business does follow the same initial relationship dynamics. If they think of you as a friend they will pay more because you are worth the premium (old/ actual friends will expect a deal, those you treat as a shit test. quality rules still apply)
You have to negotiate prices before the job is done, that's when you have all the leverage. She wants her walk shovelled, and she may think 60 is steep but she's probably too lazy to shop around at that point because you're right at the door. If you wait until after the crisis is over and your work is done, of course they're going to try to cheap out in you.
The math is wrong. She gave you $50 and told you she could only give you $60 if you could make change with your own $10 Bill? There is no USD denomination of paper money where that scenario adds up.
She paid 50 dollars and was probably going to pay the remaining 10 dollars with a 20-dollar bill (50+20=70), meaning she'd need 10 dollars' change (i.e., the 10 she asked him for).
Well, now I feel dumb and unamerican.
I started to suspect something because of that. I assumed she thought I'd be like "Oh, no hassle, I'll just take the $50." and let it slide.
She had the other $10.
Wow, such an alpha interaction. Talking with an old lady about payment she owes you. Classic 20 year old 'alpha' who still gets his beer money from daddy.
many in these situations often go off telling a price for a job not very sure of themselves and will buckle the second a person questions the price.
-HAHAHAHAHA what? are you deluding yourself
Be alpha in your interactions.
-very alpha xD nice way to feel good about yourself
"a fly flew in my room"
"most would shit their pants in the mere presence of the beast"
"I did not run but wait until the fly went away back through window it came from"
"take this example kids, for one day"
Weird story. If you're a legit business why didn't you have her sign a contract? This is a business where you compete with millions of illegal mexicans, so probably not the greatest business too be in.
You don't need to sign a contract when you enter into deals, especially for small ticket items, to be legitimate.
Tons of services are offered with out contracts. Have you ever signed a contract before you got a massage? Got guitar lessons?
Well, it's a small ticket item, a snow plowing is way different compared to the thousand dollar yard transformations and reconstruction work we do with technical skill going around the yard for watering systems.
There are a few illegal Mexicans around the area, they're hard workers, and yes, they will work for slave labor, but they don't have the more advanced skills needed in landscaping. They're typically limited to cutting grass and using a weed whacker or trimming bushes and so forth or try to set up systems and badly mess it up.
We have managed to make the business quite profitable regardless of the competition. Our quality of work overpowers the lower prices of the other guys and we've always been confident in that.
Of course you did! Was there any ever doubt you'd be a 20-something beta? Stopped reading right here.
wow you can type curse words in your title. Your so red pill
http://www.picslyrics.net/images/363/200951/thumb.jpg?1463316769
If you think I'm clicking on that then I got a bridge I'm going to sell you for a good price
http://imgur.com/gallery/5P3yozA
Honestly, another typical trp shitpost. I went home and shoveled snow with daddy, then I was a big boy and got someone to pay me exactly what they owed. Good for you. We're so proud of you.
Can you imagine how fucking awful this sub would be if everyone started telling stories about how they had a successful day at work?
For fucks sake.
Your probably butthurt because you were never as proactive as OP in your 20's. Get over yourself.
I know right? Can you imagine if EC's started telling stories about how they took some girl home from a bar and got through their LMR and ASD and ended up fucking her? I mean what kind of place would it turn into, with people using real life examples to show others how to improve? Jeeze!
someone hasn't gotten laid in a while
If only you'd of mentioned art of war and this would be the typical TPR shitpost.
Hey maybe I'll throw in a Conan quote too.
What is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.
I think she was trying to negotiate the price not trying to dick you out of money.
Do you really think she is going to give your landscaping company a call next time? Aren't you worried about the possibly she may start sone rumors about your company? "Oh that kid was so rude to me when I tried to pay, I'm going to call XYZ company instead, they're much nicer"
I imagine most other contractors would be willing to give a small discount if it could guarantee repeat service.
You could have said: I tell you what, give me a hundred ten and we will call it two for one.
Point being is that there's going to be another snowplow/landscaping service out here who will be willing to offer a discount.
It was more like a $70 job and we did it for $60 so I mean, yeah. We already offered quite a good price.
Plus, we got another call today from one of her friends.
You plowed snow. You didn't landscape, and you're not a professional snow plower. You shoveled fucking snow -- for an old lady, no less -- and acted like an asshole over $5, no less? You're a piece of shit, hands down.
Let me reiterate: You did manual labor that requires zero education or training. Investment for the job costs less than $10, which pays off practically immediately. You asked for $20 /hour, and the old lady asked if $40 were okay because others have reasonably charged the same. Then, you don't even fucking negotiate down to $50?
Like I said, this was $5 for you. And you lost potential future business by being a dick. No wonder you have to work for daddy; nobody else would hire a fucking shithead like you. Go choke.