LTR: The Bare Minimum You Need to Know

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March 9, 2018

I've avoided teaching about this, because learning to spin plates is more important. But now the subject has come up, and people are talking about it.

Here are the Basics. Not a comprehensive guide, not even a primer. Simply the absolute minimum you need, to avoid shooting yourself in the foot.

What is an LTR?

If we read the single most important piece of Redpill literature ever, /u/humansockpuppet's Bitch Management Hierarchy, we learn that there are four level of sexual intimacy with a woman.

  • Level 0: One-Night Stand
  • Level 1: Plate
  • Level 2: Friends with Benefits.
  • Level 3: LTR/Significant Other/Girlfriend

The Guide itself touches on the distinctions, but focuses on when and why to promote. Of a clear explanation of what the difference is, we turn to the Cliff's Notes, which makes it clear that:

  • Rank 0 is the rank of sex.
  • Rank 1 is the rank of repeated contact.
  • Rank 2 is the rank of non-sexual social time.
  • Rank 3 is the rank of emotional investment.

So, an LTR is a sexual partner you have voluntarily allowed yourself to become emotionally attached to.

That's it.

That's all.

It doesn't mean monogamy, necessarily. (Don't give that away unless you want to, and never for free.)

It doesn't mean promises made to her, or publicly announced status, or cohabitation, or investment of material resources (all of these are also gifts if you choose to give them).

It just means you emotionally invest in her.

This has additional benefits, and carries additional risks.

What are the benefits?

Men may be the gatekeepers of emotional connection, but this does not mean they derive no joy from it. Just as women, who are the gatekeepers of sex, still crave and enjoy sex, men can and do feel real affection for the right sort of woman, and will actively want to do so.

Most of you, this already makes sense to. If it doesn't, and you are still asking "why?", then this urge is weak or non-existent in you. Stop reading and go spin plates.

What is the major risk?

When we invest money in a business enterprise, we risk losing that money. When we emotionally invest in a woman, we risk losing that investment.

If the idea of losing this girl doesn't bother you to some degree, then you have an FWB, not an LTR. Thus, you lose the total outcome independence that you would have with a plate.

The effects of this are easy to imagine.

How do I capture the benefits while minimizing the risks?


First, invest wisely. The Bitch Management Hierarchy deals very comprehensively with how to do this.

Second, actively manage your investment.

This means abandoning your strategy of indifference for a strategy of control.

You no longer get to not care if she stays or goes. You no longer get to say that "she's not yours, it's just your turn". These are tactics of indifference. If you are invested, you are axiomatically not indifferent. Investment and indifference are opposites of each other.

You must actively control your woman to prevent things from going pear-shaped. It's not just your turn. She is yours, and you damn well better be able to enforce that.

This principle is why Chad gets turned into a bitch by his LTR, and divorceraped by his wife. "Naturals" have only indifference game, and no control game.

"But Whiisssssssper, it's heeeeeeeeeeeeeer job to secure commitment! I'm just supposed to be attractive, and any effort to keep her is BETA! YOU are talking like a BETA right now! The Vanguard are getting WEAK! (I'm terrified of being a beta. Someone please hold me.)"

Yes, it is her job to secure commitment, and keep it. But since when can a woman do a job without a man to tell her what to do?

She does the work to keep the LTR. You control her so she does the right work.

Your control of your woman rests upon three pillars:

  • Attraction
    You must, at all times, keep her believing that you are it. That you are the best thing she could possibly get, and if she doesn't hold onto you, it's all downhill for the rest of her life. She must mate-guard herself whenever she is capable. This means that unless she is being strong-armed, you shouldn't have to step in.

  • Obedience
    You must instill her in the expectation that her job is to do what you say, when you say it, because you say it. She must explicitly and consciously accept her role as the subordinate in the relationship. This is easy to do if you start early. (Read some porn written by women, they touch themselves to this stuff.) Be sure not to let obedience stop at the bedroom door, use the habits she gets into there to give her instructions in her daily life. Use compliance tests frequently. Explicitly punish her for minor misbehaviours.

  • Non-Entitlement
    You must make sure she regards anything you give her as a gift given on a whim, not a normal aspect of your relationship that she is now entitled to. Gifts (generally small and inexpensive as a rule) should happen when you feel like it, not on Christmas, her birthday, Valentine's day, etc. Never respond to "I love you" with "I love you, too". Give her attention and pets as a reward for good behaviour, not as a pattern or habit. If she ever approaches you in a fashion that comes off as demanding, never give her what she wants.

She should always be working to keep you, and to keep you happy.

You should always be giving her clear and unambiguous guidance on what is expected of her.

If I'm not outcome independent, what do I do if it goes bad and my control strategy doesn't work?

He who cannot cast away a treasure at need is in chains.

While you must be invested, you must also be willing to write off a bad investment and cut your losses. Major misbehaviours (cheating, deception, ultimatums, deliberate disrespect, etc) must always result in a hard next. There is no "saving the relationship". If a relationship ever needs "saving" rather than a minor course correction, it's already a write-off.

It is important to keep your game strong, so you can get back into it as soon as possible after you write off a bad one.

I like relationships better than spinning plates. How do I get one?

You don't.

If a woman who practices reciprocity is a unicorn (because unicorns don't fucking exist), then a feminine, submissive woman who is willing to work is a "snow leopard", an animal that exists, but is so rare that if you see one, odds are it will already be captured and in someone else's zoo.

Don't hunt snow leopards. It's a waste of your time. Simply be prepared to recognize one if you see it, and know what to do with one when you recognize it.

Just as girls have no control over whether you are sex-worthy, you have no control over whether the girls you meet are relationship-worthy.

Plan accordingly.

Post Information
Title LTR: The Bare Minimum You Need to Know
Author Whisper
Upvotes 1048
Comments 144
Date 09 March 2018 09:52 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Original Link
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Red Pill terms found in post:

[–][deleted] 289 points290 points  (26 children) | Copy

Only thing I would add to this fine advice is that unconditional love is for your children only.

Always be willing to show a woman your back. Best way to do this is to have the ability to quickly replace her with new women.

[–]oosnakeoo32 points33 points  (6 children) | Copy

I guarantee that there are certain conditions where you wouldn't love your children or parents..all love is conditional.

[–][deleted] 95 points96 points  (4 children) | Copy

Cant argue with parents. Children are a slightly differnet story because they are your wards. You are responsible for making them strong, sufficient, courageous individuals. If that isnt the case, You failed

[–]oosnakeoo6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

When your children are adults, they make their own decisions and are influenced by many other people, other than you, which you cannot help. I am not like my parents in various ways.

[–][deleted] 43 points44 points  (1 child) | Copy

Tell me about your kids

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

To a degree. My parents raised me to be strong, successful, and most importantly, manipulative. Unfortunately I struggle with that and it isnt their fault. It's mine. Im getting better slowly but to put the blame on the parents is false imo.

[–]LethalShade2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Disagree. Not agreeing with certain choices your kids make doesn't mean you don't have unconditional love for them. As a good parent, should be a given.

[–]Endorsed Contributormonsieurhire211 points12 points  (14 children) | Copy

Haha, what, are you KIDDING me? The same principles apply not just to women, but men and children as well. Put your children on a pedestal and they will walk all over you. I have seen it happen and participated in it. Sometimes, to be kind, you must be cruel.

[–]1know_your_path23 points24 points  (9 children) | Copy

It's not about pedestal or not. It's about the responsibility you claim over them. A wife can cross a line of no return. A child cannot.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy

he thinks love = pedestal

A wife can cross a line of no return

+1....thats the core of it all. thats what most western chubbyhubbies dont get

[–]1know_your_path0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy


[–]Endorsed Contributormonsieurhire20 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

Maybe, but if they believe that, they will run rough-shod over you, and you are teaching them by example, that there are no consequences to actions.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (4 children) | Copy

Loving children means you dont let them run roughshod over you.

[–]Endorsed Contributormonsieurhire26 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy

Ah, monsieur, now we are defining terms...

You explicitly wrote "unconditional love." But in order to train your children for adulthood, you must teach them that the world will only love them if they produce and add value in some way, because it's true, not just because they exist.

And of course, even the most permissive parents don't really love unconditionally... they love under the condition that they don't have to make hard choices and set rules or limits because they fear being wrong in their choices, or going against the permissive social grain, which causes immediate pain, than producing spoiled children in the future, which is a long way off, and oh, by the way, they can always point the finger elsewhere, like the television they brought into their homes to act as babysitter, or the crummy school they handed their child over to as de facto parent.

Would you love your child if they committed an atrocity, like say, raped a small child? Why would you? It is very difficult to follow through on such promises, in any case. If, despite your best efforts, your child turns into a worthless parasite because of some congenital defect, or becomes an invalid that you can't easily unhook yourself from, you'll find it increasingly difficult to love said child, even if you were indoctrinated in the most self-immolating Christian ideology.

Now, of course, it's problematic to turn your children into trained seals, performing for approval; that creates a different set of problems. If they feel they have to work to get YOUR love, they will transfer that servile behavior over to other entities. It's a difficult balance to walk. The key is to train them to discipline their worst impulses and instincts and harness the energy towards serving their own self-interest in a productive way, so that they neither become enslaved by the false "freedom" of pursuing whims, nor by mindlessly following the corporatocracy's dictates to produce, consume, be silent, and die for the greater good of faceless shareholders.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

permissive parents don't really love unconditionally...

Id argue they are permissive to avoid losing their child to independence. They subconsciously want a helpless depenedent so they are never left alone

[–]Endorsed Contributormonsieurhire21 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Eh... from what I've ever said from certain elders, they are all TOO conscious of what they are doing. They were referring to a couple that had just one son because of secondary infertility, and how they were behaving a certain way because they wanted him to take care of them when they got old. It was pretty illuminating. Sure, you can try paying people, but they will probably be trying to calculate how they can do you in and take your stuff, that ironically, you won't need anyway.

[–]1know_your_path2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

It means you're willing to exert the effort necessary, no matter WHAT, to shape and guide and assist them in the way you know best so that they can find success and lead a social life independently from you when you're gone. That includes being an example as well as explaining your ways. A good wife helps with that, too. It's your purpose. If they're disabled, you seek professional help, etc.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy

you have this ass backwards

putting your children on a pedestal isnt love. your children are not your friends they are your wards.

You have an eternal responsibility to show them the good and bad about humanity with a patience that the world wont show them

Women dont deserve this.

The best they can do is be my adopted children

[–]Endorsed Contributormonsieurhire21 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I never said you shouldn't love them, but loving anybody unconditionally leads to spoilage.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

loving children in 2018 has become a disaster. a generatuon of entitled helpless dependents. coddled manboys everywhere to be seen

taking eternal responsibility for your offspring is love.

[–]The_Noble_Lie0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is extremely noble of you. You probably know that already though.

[–]Gozsayin0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This should be posted at the top of every Reddit post

[–]secretly7-3 points-2 points  (1 child) | Copy

And your parents?

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

Fuck no. I love mine but ive certainly seen some bad parents out there and their kids dont need to be shackled with servitude to folks who dont deserve it

[–]Rian_Stone75 points76 points  (32 children) | Copy

Chatted with Donovan Sharpe on this Thursday.

[–]Endorsed ContributorTaipanshimshon9 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy

Nice show.

Two points.

First - what’s wrong with men that we don’t want to continue to do pussy moistening behavior ( game ) - with our SO?

The whole concept of “no more games “ is a woman’s thing. They get emotionally tired of shit tests that guys fail. And of having the burden of performance in their relationships on the one hand and the cock carousel on the other.

For men - even if we need reminders - chasing is fun. And chasing does involve some game. Even classic push - pull. I rediscovered putting nicknames into the phone like you mentioned recently. I’m apparently such an asshole but - she still wants the asshole.

Second -

Women are so bored. And they keep dating - the ones who are dating - physically decent looking guys - who turn out to be women on the inside. I routinely see this with every decent looking girl I work with or am around in my social circle.

They will find a guy who looks good. Fuck him for a few months. Then realize that the guy defaults to a feminine - attention seeking - validation needing - “say you love me too” mindset.

A month or two later they are done with him. I can set my schedule by how routine this stuff is.

[–]Rian_Stone1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

threw it in the private chat, will see if they ping off the points. they are good.

[–]Rian_Stone0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I notice on Twitter. after telling glo how to play nice, he seems to be playing nice

[–]Senior ContributorNightwingTRP14 points15 points  (6 children) | Copy

Honestly... the state of this place. Who are the numpties downvoting a link to a podcast?

[–]Rian_Stone18 points19 points  (1 child) | Copy

I get hordes of haters. If internet points give them justice, who am I to argue with them?

[–]Senior ContributorNightwingTRP16 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy

When porn doesn't do it for them anymore... they've got to do something while they're masturbating.

[–]Lavlamp10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

Because so many sheep forget they down votes are for comments that do not contribute to the conversation. It always bugs me too when I see people using the down vote as a disagree.

[–] points points | Copy

[permanently deleted]

[–]1AlfredKinsey0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I've noticed keyboard warriors who frequent other subs and hate TRP are, in fact, doing this.

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper[S] 22 points23 points  (13 children) | Copy

Very good stuff.

There's a minor point I disagree on, though. And that's this idea that you can't tell her what to do, ever.

One of the things I advocate above is getting her into the habit of obedience. You can tell her what to do if she is used to doing what you say. You cannot, of course, just come out of the blue and start telling her "do this, don't do that". She'll get resentful, and say to herself, "Hey, what I don't do it? Nothing will actually happen."

But if you get her doing as you say from the very start, then disobeying you is crossing one of your boundaries. And, moreover, it's transgressing the expected pattern of behaviour.

Recall that women are inherently submissive, and look around them to see what is normal behaviour.

Establish obedience as normal behaviour.

[–]Rian_Stone9 points10 points  (6 children) | Copy

Some make it work, both have their merits.

I prefer soft Power since its easier to be aloof. I state the boundaries, and I'll enforce them if needed.

If you have the energy for obedience, it will work just fine, just don't slip up or slack off.

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper[S] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy

It involves a certain amount of management, yes.

[–]subrosa2150 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

If I gotta be Pavlov to keep a relationship, then I probably didn't deserve one in the first place.

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper[S] 26 points27 points  (3 children) | Copy

If you want a dog, you can either train a dog, or have a badly behaved dog. Your choice.

[–] points points | Copy

[permanently deleted]

[–]Do not send modmail to my personal inboxCrazyHorseInvincible[M] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

Behave yourself.

[–]scamper_22 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

The number one thing I've learned and it is very hard for modern guys to do, is to recognize that a woman will complain and blame... and you just have to ignore it.

The reason, they will complain and blame regardless of the situation. You have to recognize that. Even the most 'independent' women I've met, just sit around complaining and blaming this bf/husband for anything that possibly doesn't go right.

What do I mean by this? Suppose you have a kid, and your wife stays home. She will complain about being tired, taking care of the kid, lack of career progression.... She goes back to work. She will complain about not being a good mother, working too hard, missing being close to the kid...

So here's the kicker...they actually want you to make decisions, so it's off their plate, and they can just blame and complain about you.

Now balancing that is screwed up of course. They are still human and if you push too far, things can go bad.

[–]greatamericancities1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Have dealt with this in a few cases, both plates and LTRs. Even "agree and amplify" becomes an effort if a woman is consistently "complaining and blaming", especially in an LTR.

Starting to wonder if completely ignoring the complaining and blaming statements is the better approach. Will have to try that as an experiment and see how it turns out.

If you have more thoughts on this it might be worth posting. I don't know if AWALT holds but it seems common enough that most men have run into it, one time or another.

[–]SKRedPill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

In practical female Psychology for the practical man - this was I think the top of the list of female qualities - projecting on to the external world. Illimitable Man wrote it as a giant extension of a woman's sexual principle - that the world is acting on her.

It's actually a mild form of the phenomenon that can lead to BPD when all the limiters are removed or non-existent. You can't have femininity without it, it's a trade off.

[–]1durtyknees6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

Recall that women are inherently submissive, and look around them to see what is normal behaviour.

Because of this, men who can't control themselves (addiction/impulsiveness/etc) are also projecting the message "I'm not in control". This is where guys slip up the most. Slacking off is also a sign of not being in control of themselves.

Great article! Very practical advice, especially this part:

Gifts (generally small and inexpensive as a rule) should happen when you feel like it, not on Christmas, her birthday, Valentine's day, etc.

Thoughtful gifts that show you really know her well, will mean more than expensive generic gifts.

You also know you're doing it right when she gives you gifts for Christmas/birthday/Valentine's/etc, without expecting gifts from you.

[–]Senior ContributorNightwingTRP9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy

And that's this idea that you can't tell her what to do, ever.

Absolutely. Leadership is key and leadership requires both making decisions, doing things yourself and giving orders. Whisper says her obedience should be normal, I'd like to add that you giving orders and instructions to her should be normal behaviour. This also applies to guys spinning plates.

The dynamic is key. It'll save you so much hassle in the long term.

[–]PhaedrusHunt2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Great interview. I'll see you your sight hound and raise you an Anatolian Shepherd.

[–]Rian_Stone3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Damn! Is that a pet, or a roommate?

[–]jackandjill221 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Cool, why was he Twitter banned?

[–]Rian_Stone4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

single mom got defensive

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Argued with a slut.

[–]Endorsed Contributorsqerl1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Great episode...

[–]mindless_shift0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

This YouTube channel is now closed, is the video available anywhere now?

[–]Rian_Stone1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

either 21conventions youtube channel or entrepeneurs in cars.

I'm in mostly the 21con ones, but donovan switches between both

[–]1Senor_Schwifty87 points88 points  (5 children) | Copy

Been in a LTR ever since I've discovered TRP and I've been slowly realizing exactly this.

For the longest time I was wondering why my indifference game wasn't working and why things would keep ending in arguments, and I came to this exact conclusion.

I wasn't enforcing my control.

By that I don't mean I was forcing her to do things she didn't want to, I was simply being indifferent about the relationship which ends up leaving her to do her own captaining while your off to the side observing hoping she makes the right decisions. Spoiler, she won't.

[–]FREEKR6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy

What would you recommend doing ?

[–]1Senor_Schwifty5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

I recommend you enforce a control, how you do that is completely dependent on the relationship. In an LTR you are invested, inherently you have expectations for what that invest should return. That’s where you enforce control, on the areas of the relationship in which your expectations are not met.

[–]killer_guitar_break19 points20 points  (0 children) | Copy

Exactly, hoping she does this and that. You have to direct the ship.

[–]Do not send modmail to my personal inboxCrazyHorseInvincible[M] 13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy


[–]1021179910713 points14 points  (3 children) | Copy

Great Post, I can relate a bit, quick story.

Been seeing a girl for a few months. Great ass, slim, works out(squat, deadlift I train her), cooks, conscious about food etc. Now and then she would get a bitch fit and challenge something I did/say. I remain calm, state my decisions and a reason, then turn around. 100% of the time she comes back apologising.

Now that you point this out, I nipped her nagging about her career in the butt by stating a hard rule I have regarding women I hang out with(aka FWB with non-sexual social hangouts).

They must strive to improve themselves.

I dont require investment in themselves to the degree I invest in myself, but some form of improvement. Had a very stern conversation in less than 5min which ended with me saying "if you want to continue hanging out with me then you need to get yourself straight and improve yourself. My life moves at 120kmph, keep up or find someone who will cruise with you with no end goal in sight".

I went to bed, she came back apologising. Now she's studying 3 nights a week, I still check up on her progress. If I don't she slips up. It's constant management, but the change in behaviour is very apparent.

[–]360_no_scope_upvote2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Sounds like you're investing way to much into the women you see. You're a seperate entity, not a union of one. Your future has nothing to do with her future. In my opinion you're complicating things.

[–]bat0060 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

But he’s having a response “he orchestrated” from her and she’s compiling.

[–]greatamericancities1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Excellent malaprop, to nip something in the butt. Works several ways.

Your approach is tapping into a deeper human yearning for parental, especially paternal, care. She is responding to someone taking an active and personal interest in her development. Like catnip for her.

[–]WhorehouseVet55 points56 points  (0 children) | Copy

WTF, how come everyone's posts are getting downvotes into oblivion? Bloopers and bots are brigading?

I agree with OP, ltr is an investment, and it is the investor (us) who are responsible to keep an eye on our investment.

[–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor55 points56 points  (4 children) | Copy

Well, this thread is getting brigaded hard. Another homerun in the Get Their Panties In a Twist Olympics, /u/Whisper.

You don't.

The triggering line, no doubt.

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper[S] 56 points57 points  (3 children) | Copy

I think it's a combination of "What, I can't just go find a special magic fairy princess like I was ordering a sandwich???" and "Mongo! Very! Strong! Mongo not have sissy feelings!" and "OMG the horrible mean bad mans said that evvil mans should control the nice womens!"

If it doesn't bother you to hear it, it's probably not truth.

[–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

"Mongo! Very! Strong! Mongo not have sissy feelings!"

Yeah, that's a t-shirt now. I chose the two-day delivery option.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Do you think So-called spirituality's impact on the west is also a reason men are losing their masculinity, are becoming more agreeable? Because I've been in some zen and Buddhist centers and I noticed this. I experienced spirituality didn't help me at all to embrace my masculinity.

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy

Symptom, not disease.

[–]TRP VanguardHumanSockPuppet52 points53 points  (9 children) | Copy

This is an important expansion on the subject of bitch management. If I could go back, I would have begun with something like this as a primer and THEN written the Bitch Management Hierarchy.

The reason is twofold:

  1. A woman is unlikely to advance up the hierarchy without guidance. She needs a man telling her what she is doing right and what she needs to correct constantly.
  2. Men in our era are unaccustomed to, and indeed specifically trained to NOT issue orders or even have expectations of women. So they don't tell women how to advance, either because they don't know that they have to, they don't know how, or they find the idea distasteful.

I think my next article will be a breakdown of this brainwashing process, and how men must fix their reluctance to boss women around before they can ever have success with women. Because no matter what your end goal is as far as female relations (spinning plates or having an LTR), giving women orders is a necessary precondition to achieving any of those.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy

Patrice O’Neal once again prescribed this very method. Talk a bitch’s ear off because she don’t know shit unless you tell her. The vetting process is a training process. No one can afford to be hands off.

[–]greatamericancities4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Bingo! The vetting (evaluation, filtering) process is a training (shaping, making, editing) process.

The material you are working has an inherent potential and your efforts should be calibrated for best results. Push too hard or too soon and the material fails. Take too long or don't push hard enough and the material never becomes as good as it might have been. You are the alchemist, extracting gold from the stone.

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper[S] 24 points25 points  (3 children) | Copy

Perhaps we can combine all this into the "Comprehensive Bitch Management Guide".

[–]TRP VanguardHumanSockPuppet21 points22 points  (1 child) | Copy

I definitely think it would be effective to combine the original BMH with your Cliff's Notes since they clarify the levels so well. And with some tweaking, it might be possible to combine the anti-brainwashing primer with it as well.

I will start the process and send the first draft your way.

[–]PresidentOnFirstTry0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Most ambitious collaboration in the history.

[–]Senior ContributorNightwingTRP9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy

Because no matter what your end goal is as far as female relations (spinning plates or having an LTR), giving women orders is a necessary precondition to achieving any of those.

My precise thought a little over an hour ago. My entire commanding 101 game piece was based around this reality. I'm very surprised you never weighed in on that piece given your position.

[–]TRP VanguardHumanSockPuppet6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's possible I simply didn't see it. Haven't been around the community as much in the last couple of years since I'm in the thick of making my ambitions into reality. Haven't done much more than leave a comment here and there.

I'll definitely have a look at your article and would be happy to discuss.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Men in our era are unaccustomed to, and indeed specifically trained to NOT issue orders or even have expectations of women

So fucking true and the exact reason that when a man does boss a woman around with his ladykiller attitude she quickly submits

[–]byom-fakemail-de8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy

"Don't hunt snow leopards. It's a waste of your time. Simply be prepared to recognize one if you see it, and know what to do with one when you recognize it." I love that sentence.

[–]greatamericancities1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

What Casteneda called the "cubic centimeter of chance". Cultivating your awareness and perception such that, when it appears, you can recognize it and grab ahold of it.

Also known as, "Chance favors the prepared mind", or, "Make your own luck".

[–]1ozaku735 points36 points  (2 children) | Copy

Finally some sense talking in this sub. LTR's are not bad, neither is it bad to be emotionally attached. You just need to know that you can be fucked over in a wrong way, that women have a ton of options and limiting yourself to one is ridiculous.

This is exactly why it's called the red pill. Do you want to live your own world where you mentally masturbate yourself to near-death with romantic movie scenes, happily ever after bullshit, or wake up and realize that this happens maybe 1% of the time, and usually men and women go out, socialize, have fun and don't masturbate to porn in their basement on a friday night which is no different than being plugged into a pod 50 meters above the ground.

Bluepills are dreamers, redpills are wakers. The former is effortlessly beautiful, the latter is a shit world which you can make beautiful and similar to your dreams if you know how to act in that world.

[–]OSaraiva12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy

Bluepill world is an effortless fantasy which keeps punching you in the face, not all that beautiful.

[–]1ozaku75 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's dreaming a beautiful reality that remains perpetually unfulfilled in the real world.

[–]A_Bridgeburner6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy

“When she says I love you, never say I love you too.”

How would you handle this instead?

[–]herColdHand10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

Eh, that particular bit seems like bad advice to me.

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy

"I know."

[–]xovyz27 points28 points  (1 child) | Copy

It seems to me that a lot of posters here says that you cannot love a woman, that if you start feeling emotional for her you've fucked up and it's bad. If you're aware of your emotions and make sure that she does not step over your boundaries and you keep the situation under control, love can be an amazing thing and will enhance the sex you have in the relationship ever so much more. That is not to say you're not supposed to only have one woman in your life - having plates is very important, but just because you have 3 women in your life does not mean you cannot be heavily emotionally invested with one of them. In fact I'd recommend so. Keeping one level 3 and a few level 1s is the best in my personal opinion.

[–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

lot of posters here says that you cannot love a woman,

And they have it backwards: it is women that cannot love men in the way that they want women to do so. Men would do much better treating it on accounts--are you getting from it what you expect given your efforts? Trying to measure something that most men can't even quantify is pointless and dangerous. And even then, if you somehow convinced yourself you can measure it, you'll only find it isn't enough.

[–]Spilledmychips18 points19 points  (6 children) | Copy

Brilliant. My buddy continues to get cheated on or dumped by ltr’s because he is indifferent and does not manage.

[–]1AlfredKinsey11 points12 points  (5 children) | Copy

I've noticed that they tend to be marriage-oriented guys who actively searching for "the one."

Then complain that they can't find a girlfriend.

String along a girl they date in a weird, dissonant way.

Quick to say "I don't care," but mucking up the works with insincere bravado.

[–]Spilledmychips2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Dude! Yes! You have explained him exactly

[–]mountainbiker1780 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

String along a girl they date in a weird, dissonant way.

Would expand now on what this looks like? I'm not totally understanding what you mean here.

[–]1AlfredKinsey2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

I notice that they will act like they "spin plates," but actually just get oneitis bad and have commitment talks early with a woman less than two months in, i.e. "stringing them along" by making the women believe that there is LTR potential. They ACT like they don't care about her, and thereby enforce no control and seem like uncaring assholes, but past the point where that is the only necessary or beneficial mode for the relationship. Pretending to be more outcome independent creates unnecessary drama in their life.

It's hard to describe, but these guys seem both desperate to wife up the first girl who gives them attention/sex AND too wrapped up in ego to acknowledge that they are acting out of emotion when they could just be having fun in the moment. I've heard a few of the guys say "she's such a slut" because a girl has had sex with one or two other people and "I think she'd make a good wife" in the same breath, without really knowing a girl at all. This is called cognitive dissonance and it will scare a woman off quickly. I also think it can make a man miserable when it comes to his relationships with women.

[–]generalaccounting123 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

damn I think this is me because I relate to what you wrote and it honestly scares the shit out of me. How does one enforce more control? I've been pretty indifferent with my current exclusive relationship of 3 months and I'm not going to lie, I believe I am too emotionally invested atm.

[–]1AlfredKinsey0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If you are one of these guys, I think you should be more honest with yourself and accept ugly truths more deeply.

I think the right mode of control will emerge from this.

Don't LTR a girl and then act like you don't give a shit about her all the time. It certainly doesn't foster a positive, worthwhile relationship. Don't be thinking about marriage, either, especially after knowing a girl for three months.

[–]clammastak29 points30 points  (3 children) | Copy

always be ready to demote (emotionally detach) or walk away if necessary if you catch her misbehaving. maintaining the power to walk away will keep her interested, assuming not all hope is lost.

[–]1AlfredKinsey3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

I'm curious of others' opinions on literally walking away for minor (non deal-breaker) transgressions. I think it can be effective, but needs to be used judiciously, i.e. doing it too much makes you cold/antagonizes you to the gf.

[–]j_arbuckle201211 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy

It's just compliance. And you should only hard next when major misbehaviour happens (cheating, deliberate disrespect, etc.).

What you're really doing is establishing a pattern of behaviour wherein she does a trick to get a reward (Pavlov) and when she isn't turning tricks for you she isn't getting that reward. What is that reward? Emotion, and emotional investment. In this way, when she has a minor incident, you use your indifference to bring her to heel. In fact, you should be using your apathy as a weapon, because it is. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy. You aren't butthurt by her. You aren't affected by her misbehaviour at all. You just go apathetic but you use powertalk and plausible deniability to veil your apathy. It is then on her to work her way back into your good graces.

[–]chalapeno_guy12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy

Upvote for starting array at 0

[–]1AlfredKinsey2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

A mathematician somewhere just killed himself.

[–]Fedor_Gavnyukov5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

as my mother always said: you need to teach your woman how to be your wife

[–]redpill774 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

"Naturals" have only indifference game, and no control game.

Explicitly punish her for minor misbehaviours.

The normal redpill teachings for punishment are withdrawl of attention, which is indifference game. But I get the feeling that to explicitly punish in the context of an LTR involves verbal castigation?

[–]ShadyMahFuggah6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

Reads like it's right out of a textbook. Great write-up. Oddly human.

Just as girls have no control over whether you are sex-worthy, you have no control over whether the girls you meet are relationship-worthy.

Mental point of origin to the max, here.

[–]melungeonmuscle6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

I just want to say a couple of things on this because I have some direct experience. First off, thanks OP for taking the time to write it.

Okay so I have been in an LTR with a woman for about 6 years who has bi-polar. I know what you're thinking (that sounds like the ultimate shitstorm) but its a fairly complex and interesting situation. I have learned a ton about the emotional control of women through this relationship. Shit I have learned a ton about people in general but as it applies to LTRs you are absolutely correct that maintaining control is paramount.

I was out last night with a couple of colleagues from work. One of the guys is your typical soyboy who makes an awkward attempt at being masculine and his woman looks like Dora the Explorer. Anyways, its 100% obvious this woman does not respect him. He was sitting between his wife and some other fat bitch and they were "explaining" to him what "mansplaining" was by "mansplaining" it. He was just sitting there like an obedient little boy. Earlier that night he'd brought his wife a beer and she was so engaged in conversation that she didn't even look up or say thank you. The pinnacle moment of the evening was when I made a joke about estrogen inducing music and he called me sexist. I was thinking well shit I may be sexist but at least my woman respects me and is happy with her support role.

You have to remember something important. You are the hero of the story. She's there to provide the sex, food, respite, and gentleness you need when you are out conquering the battles of the world. Your reward to her for that is affection and providing for her. Women seem to get a funny attaitude shift once they are involved in providing for the household. They are not made for that game, you are. They are not built for the battles of business and climbing and crawling your way to success. Most of them will achieve mediocre levels pf success in whatever field they set out in because they are more tuned for "mile wide and an inch deep" type of thinking.

This has turned into a huge comment and it should probably be a post but I wanted to express my experiences from last night to you guys because I saw the exact things OP listed about LTRs being played out in a real life situation.

[–]room_3035 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy

I'm a little confused, isn't the true maxim that "the person who cares the least in a relationship has the power".

Replies here seem to be advocating that men being indifferent to women and in their LTR's are the ones losing women or getting bad treatment from their girl.

ZFG and indifference usually signal to women that you: have options and will walk at the first sign of trouble.

[–]Rian_Stone4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

There's a nuance

Whistler is saying hard power, I'm saying soft power. Each one is dominant, they are just different flavours

[–]1AlfredKinsey3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy

LTRing requires you to take it a step further than you would with plates/in field (opening/closing girls).

Control is at the heart of a successful LTR with a woman, not indifference. Control plays a smaller role when spinning plates, I think its mostly physical control in the bedroom and self-control in maintaining frame, but its on easymode. Being cool with casual sex requires you to relinquish control over the person/s you are fooking. I would propose that

Too much indifference will make you and your girlfriend unhappy and won't look like a proper romantic relationship. Of course, you need enough that, should it cease to be a proper relationship in your eyes, you can scrap it without a second thought, but you can't expect to keep a girl happy if you treat her like shit and make her feel constantly threatened by your ability to break up, fuck other chicks without her, or shut down emotionally. I see guys on this sub claiming that and, whether or not they are telling the truth, they seem unnecessarily angry and, imo, aren't deriving the full benefits of this kind of companionship.

If you 100% don't care about a woman, its silly to upgrade her past plate status. You can care less than your partner. You can also ensure that they care more, because they power dynamic is very real. You can do this with dominant behavior (give them guidance and purpose), dread game, and bonding.

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper[S] 14 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy

If you 100% don't care about a woman, its silly to upgrade her past plate status.

If you 100% don't care about a girl, you can't upgrade her to LTR status.

The LTR is the act of allowing yourself to care about her. If you don't feel that, any promise you make is just a bullshit lie to get your dick wet.

The more a girl invests in you, the more control over her you have. The more control you have, the more you can care about her without losing the upper hand.

[–]1AlfredKinsey2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Succinct and insightful.

[–]JensenMse7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy

Brilliant. Just brilliant. You've opened my eyes, brother. I noticed how my LTRs would enjoy my indifference game for quite a bit, only for them to distance themselves from me when they started wanting more from me. I always claimed myself to be a good leader in my relationships but now I realize I was simply deluding myself with the fear of overinvestment. To add icing to the cake, I'd always be in the habit of actively dreading them, just to see for myself whether they're still into me(wanting validation. Yeah I know that's just insecure.) My LTRs have all told me I'm too hot for them and they're afraid of losing me to another girl (my current LTR jokingly tells me all the time that she'll chop off my dick if I ever cheat on her.)

Girls need to know you genuinely care for them but they also need to know you ain't a pushover who doesn't know how to actively lead. Indifference is okay in small doses but girls need you to be present all the time so she can feel safe around you.

[–]Zech4riah1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

The amount of indifference is important and varies depending on the girl. I'd say that many new found TRPers are flipping to too-much-indifference side which results a girl leaving you for some beta to get her disney LTR. Atleast I had this problem in the past and I'm still trying to find a balance.

[–]Extremely_Photogenic1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Amazing post. One question: how do you respond to I love you if you never say "I love you too"? Also I assume this isn't really NEVER. The on road block I have is that her saying something along the lines of "I love you so much" IS good behavior that should be rewarded

[–]TunedtoPerfection1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

The most important thing I learned about LTR's over my years is this:

If you go into the relationship looking to make it an LTR, it will fail.

The false belief that LTR's are an endgame that allows you to stop caring about game and yourself is what I see ruin ever marriage I know of.

[–]CRAIBaby 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

Very useful post especially in lights of my current situation. Id appreciate it very much if you could answer the following question.

Im currently seeing a girl who Im starting to become emotionally invested in. She wants an (exclusive) LTR and I told her I need some time. At the moment shes fine with just being my main girl, and accepting of the fact that I might be smashing girls on the side. Shes pretty cool and we have great chemistry. I can see her being my gf. Problem is some red flags:

  • She has numerous Tats and some piercings (i like them, but rp doesnt - not sure what to make of that)
  • She likes to go clubbing and drinking (even though she doesnt do it much) - this sucks since I dont
  • She ocassionaly dresses slutty

Now according to traditional RP theory, mate guarding is a big no-no. But your post, that seems to advocate the opposite, makes a lot of sense.

Heres the current situation: Before we started getting more serious, she bought a ticket to some festival that happens in a month to go with a female friend of hers, and invited me to come with. I probably wont.

Now, since considering her to be my gf: i would never be fine with my gf going alone to a festival. And since im emotionally invested in her, Id rather her not go regardless.

My thoughts were to establish some relationship ground rules the next time she brings up the topic, specifically

  • No clubbing,partying,festivals,getting drunk, taking drugs without me being around

Would that be considered too strong mateguarding or a proper exercise of control? How would you frame it?

What are your thoughts in general about my situation?

Would also appreciate if /u/Rian_stone who seems to be a proponent of this idea and /u/Archwinger who seems to be an opponent of this strategy to chime in.

Obviously /u/Rollo_tomassi and /u/illimitableman s opinions are always appreciated.

[–]Yngwie_is_god1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

For a LTR to work you need to have common interests. If she likes to go clubbing and going to festivals regularly then you also need to enjoy that and WANT to be doing that with her. If it’s something she honestly only does every once in awhile but it’s something your not too fond of then sometimes you might have to just go and try to enjoy yourself.... her reward for exceptionally good behavior. Hey man if you really like her I don’t see why having her grind on you at a club or listening to music at a festival wouldn’t be fun, don’t be a boring homebody ;)

Note on tats: typically a red flag of impulsiveness, poor decision making, poor self esteem/ daddy issues. I can think of very few girls/women who have tattoos that’s aren’t trailer trash with poor hygiene. Not saying that’s ALL of them but definitely the vast majority.

[–] points points | Copy

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[–]1AlfredKinsey0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

They just be posting to the "married" sub....

[–]Razkolol2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Excellent post. Don't invest your most precious resource > time into a category of depreciating assets > women, that start losing rapidly their value when hitting 30, only invest in assets in that class that yield dividends, and be prepared to lose all your investment at any time with no possibility of cash-out. Instead do invest in an asset that continues to raise in value and of which you are 100% in control of. It yields dividends depending on how good you are at managing it and your investment will never be lost until you die. That asset? Yourself.

[–]pplay_2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Emphasis on emotional investment being voluntary. If it’s involuntary then you’re in a bad place. That’s the difference between buying a mutual fund and paying taxes.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

But what happens if I am emotionally invested before rank 3?

Then you fucked up. One has to learn how to be around someone, and not put any heart eggs in their basket. The ability to invest time and mental energy but not necessarily emotional energy is key.

Shouldn't emotional investment happen organically?

Maybe in a perfect world, but nowadays the more mindful one can be about what forces are pulling at their heartstrings, the better.

In conclusion, if ya can't control when and with who you let yourself become emotionally invested, you either aren't ready for emotional investment in general or whoever you are "falling for" is someone you gotta watch out for big time. Play or be played.

[–]TruthSeekaaaaa0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

The Bitch Management Hierarchy deals very comprehensively with how to do this.

In this thread it is stated that once you have downgraded the girl, she will stay forever at that level. Why? Let's make an example, let's suppose you fight with your girl and things get pretty messed up and she insulted you or offend you, you downgrade the girl, fine. What about if she earns the level above in a long period of time? I would consider level up her again, but I'm clearly missing something

[–]Yngwie_is_god0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Depends on how much of a fight it was and how she apologized. If you just have an argument and she calls you a loser, but the next day she has a sincere apology and provides some make up head then maybe down grade isn’t necessary. She doesn’t seen honestly remorseful? Then FWB or plate, if she can’t admit she’s wrong then that isn’t GF material.

Personal example: Girl was at GF level, she asked for a break, she got permanent down grade to FWB. She came back to me after a month. From then on she never got “I loves you”, gifts or phones calls just to chat. She would mention she would tell coworkers I was her BF but I wasn’t, I just ignored those comments. 8 months later she asked for another break. Permanent down grade to plate. It was a semi LDR (different college, same home town) and she always complained about the distance so I knew the “breaks” were cus she had found somebody at her college she was “trying out”. I understood that and don’t blame her, LDR don’t work. So something like asking for a break is a permanent downgrade, if she really “loved” me like she said so often she wouldn’t be asking for breaks. Judge actions not words.

[–]RedHoodhandles0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

One of the best write ups I've read in a long time. Thank you.

[–]IncognitoMaster910 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thank you for posting. Seriously appreciated info.

[–]MrTrizzles0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Glad to see some movement away from the unicorn concept, it always reeked of self-pity.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This all seems like way to much work.

[–]Poochysnooch0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You are missing the 2 types of LTR: MLTR and OLTR

You basically just call LTR an OLTR and this is a blunt name and lacks precision.

Also, a plate is basically FB and MLTRs.

What the fuck is a plate that is not an FB? A hooker?

[–]in_progress_0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I really appreciate this post.

then a feminine, submissive woman who is willing to work is a "snow leopard", an animal that exists, but is so rare that if you see one, odds are it will already be captured and in someone else's zoo.

During my 1.7 years of learning game and RP content, I noticed the vast majority of women are just traders of their pussies and have little to nothing to bring to table.

Recently got engaged with a very caring, supporting, hot, low n-count and submissive girl. I realized I wasn't indifferent about us. I like her and would like to have her as my gf if things continue going this way.

Came to reddit and found this.

Thank you.

[–]awakenedspirit10 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is really a fantastic post. Very clear, helpful, and informative. Control game (LTR game) is really an entirely different game.

[–]2mental_models1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Great post.

I like how you define the different levels. Seems accurate, and also gives the reader a chance to know exactly what you are talking about.

Funny to see all the bloopers down-voting, but not offering any rebuttal or argument. Must be 'triggering'. After being here for about 6 months, my favorite kind of content is Red Pilled insight, and my second-favorite kind of content is that which shatters the "I want Red Pill to mean whatever I feel" blooper dynamic. This is both.

[–]Forcetobereckonedwit-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Nice tidy reminder Whisper....many thanks. I posted in here awhile ago asking for just such basic bullet point "keep the b*tch in line" tips and got nothing but youngsters puffing up their chests and spewing drivel.

I have found a snow leopard and am employing all of the above to keep it going as long as it can. Thanks again. Timely.

[–]AlterUltraEgo0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Amazing post. Put a lot of things into perspective for me. Some guys are more geared towards LTRs than others. It's difficult, and probably ill-advisable, but still manageable.

[–]piggypoo0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

As much as I do feel ya, save the soap boxing and female hate. Posts like these are the best reads.

[–]WholesomeAwesome0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

She should always be working to keep you, and to keep you happy.

You should always be giving her clear and unambiguous guidance on what is expected of her.

Imagine a women wrote this about managing guys. Reverse the sexes, I mean.

[–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

It wouldn't happen. Men are inherently expected to work for women in an attempt to get sex. To suggest there is an alternate state just confounds women.

[–]2Dmva100-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

Level 3 should be redefined not as emotional investment, but moreso time investment and future planning based on the two of you, and not just yourself (Captain-first mate sailing).

Because we all know that 'emotionally' investing or trying to connect with her in such a way will get YOU dropped to level 0 or -1 on her hierarchy management scale and beta-bux slotted.

[–]jvgkaty44-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy

So what am i to make of my guy friends who dont act like this who have awesome wives and living good. Im sure this stuff applies to many women but i have to many examples in my life of awesome couples.

[–]1AlfredKinsey0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Can you be more specific or give the examples?

[–]Persaeus-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

How do you know how their sex life is or how they are when others are not around ?

[–]merkucjo-3 points-2 points  (1 child) | Copy

[–]McChutney0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Missing a few brain cells after reading that, cheers

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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