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Can gay men successfully implement "blue pill" strategies? (self.altTRP)

submitted by [deleted]

From my time spent reading up on TRP theory I've learned that women are capable of being very manipulative. I'm sure we've all read countless field reports and stories about cheating girlfriends, gold digging wives, and hypergamy sluts. My question for you all is whether we as gay men can successfully emulate these behaviors and whether we should from a moral standpoint.

For an easy comparison woman are notorious for craving sex from one type of man, the bad boy, and money from another type, the good guy. It's the classic alpha fucks, beta bucks. This behavior is constantly sparked discussion over at /r/TheRedPill. It's clear that in these scenarios the woman is getting everything she wants while only giving a part of herself to each man. TRP views this through the man's perspective and feels cheated and wronged, but what about the woman's perspective? She gets to have great sex and be pampered. Can we manipulate the men in our lives the same way?

I believe that gay men are absolutely capable of this type of manipulation and they employ it without being called out in the same way women do. Look at the young attractive man that has sex with the older, less desirable man. The older man is getting what he wants by getting to sleep with the young buck. In return he probably buys things for the young man or otherwise pampers him. The younger guy on the other hand is free to go off and fuck men his own age when he wants to be more sexually stimulated.

Can these types of comparisons be made to other "blue pill" behaviors? And is this behavior something that should be allowed or discouraged of our young gay men?


[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Look at the young attractive man that has sex with the older, less desirable man. The older man is getting what he wants by getting to sleep with the young buck. In return he probably buys things for the young man or otherwise pampers him. The younger guy on the other hand is free to go off and fuck men his own age when he wants to be more sexually stimulated.

Not all younger:older relationships are like this. I'm genuinely attracted to way older guys, and stay financially independent to steer clear of anything like this. I've even seen relationships where the 20something is making more money than the 60something!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

What is it you find attractive about older men?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I deal with this question a lot, and the truth is there isn't really anything specific. I've always just been exclusively attracted to much older men, younger guys, no matter how attractive they supposedly are, do nothing for me. My earliest crush was when I was still in elementary school, my family went to some kinda show and there was a gray haired man sitting in front of us, I thought he was so handsome. When I hit puberty all of my crushes were on old teachers, nothing towards my peers. So I never sat down and said "I want an older man cause of the experience, the stability (trust me they're not all stable anyway,) a certain look, etc." It's just what I've always liked and the things I enjoy about older men comes after the fact.

That said, I enjoy gray and white hair, to me many men become more and more handsome as they age (my limit to this is pretty high but it depends on the guy, some guys start losing their looks at like 65, some don't until their 80s.) I enjoy guys who are thoughtful and and loving and gentle during the day, but dominant during sex. I enjoy a guy who is intelligent enough that we're able to challenge each other and learn new things from each other. I'm with a guy right now who is in his 70s and would probably repulse 99% of the population, but it's my thing.

As a last note, I'm just into old guys, not into the age difference. So when I'm an old guy, I'll still like old guys just like I do right now. When I was a teenager I fantasized more about a mentor-lover situation, and as an adult there's still a bit of the mentoring thing going on as well as the sexual power difference, but otherwise I prefer a more equal relationship... want to be a lover, not a son.

[–]OsoFeo 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've always thought guys in their 40s were the most attractive. I thought so when I was 16, and still do in my mid-40s.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

So you're with someone in their 70's. For reference, how old are you?

My take on it is this, physical attraction aside, older men will always command more respect. I've been with a few older men, had platonic relationships with significantly older men, and through out every one I've had to be mindful of their social standing over me. I can't figuratively knock them around like I would a 20-something. Its hard to picture ever taking a dominant role with someone more than 10 years older, which is why personally I don't enjoy it.

Which makes me curious about the other side of the coin. Certainly you have your attractions for what ever reason you do, but what is your partner attracted to?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

So you're with someone in their 70's. For reference, how old are you?

I'm 21

My take on it is this, physical attraction aside, older men will always command more respect. I've been with a few older men, had platonic relationships with significantly older men, and through out every one I've had to be mindful of their social standing over me. I can't figuratively knock them around like I would a 20-something.

Eh, I dunno about this. I mean, if I'm with someone, that means I respect them and so much more, already. There are plenty of older men I don't respect. In my relationship, though, I don't feel like I've ever had to worry about our social standings. Not sure what you mean by knock around either. I can joke with him, make fun of him about things, bring up my concerns or desires. When we have an argument, I do often feel like I have to be the one to give in and wait till he calms down, after which he's likely to give me credit or even admit being wrong. If I push too hard he's more likely to feel disrespected than I am, so maybe that's a bit of what you're talking about.

Its hard to picture ever taking a dominant role with someone more than 10 years older, which is why personally I don't enjoy it.

Yeah, I'm very submissive sexually, and outside of sex I kind of enjoy being submissive to one another, if you get what I mean. I like us to both be doing our best to please the other, both wanting to take care of the other. Both wanting to give in to the other's needs. And that's generally how it works, except for what I mentioned before, if we have a more serious disagreement I have to be the submissive one until he calms back down into a similar state of mind. But anyway, there are certainly older men who are submissive sexually. Submissive personalities are a bit more rare, but they're out there. My partner is submissive in some ways (he'll often ask what I want to do for the night or what my needs lately are, while not wanting to worry about his preference) but it wouldn't work if I tried to dominate him. It only works because I'll act the same way towards him until we just kinda naturally figure out who has the stronger preference.

Which makes me curious about the other side of the coin. Certainly you have your attractions for what ever reason you do, but what is your partner attracted to?

Well he obviously likes much younger guys. His theory is that it's because growing up, he was not able to act upon his homosexuality until several decades into his life. So it kinda stunted him into wanting only the young guys he wanted but could never have for all those years. He likes guys from my age till about their 40s. I guess he has a more mainstream idea of what male beauty is, even though it's often not socially acceptable for an older man to still be attracted to that. Sexually he enjoys someone who is submissive, not in like specific kinky ways, but someone who he knows craves him and wants to please him, and who will never reject him. That's kind of a big thing and also has to do with his past experiences, he completely shuts down if he is rejected. Fortunately I have a very strong libido and am extremely attracted to him, so there's been only like 2 times in 2.5 years where I haven't been in the mood when he wanted it. He also has a bit of a Pygmalion complex, he likes the idea of being with a man as he matures and finds his own place in life. It used to be that he was more direct about it, financially supporting and taking care of the young guy. But he got taken advantage of badly, so with me he's content with helping me grow emotionally and sexually but letting me handle my education and finances and such. Other than that he just really likes guys that are good and decent. He's very turned off by guys that have bad character or no character at all.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is kind of the situation I was describing albeit a little more extreme on the age differences. There's an odd power dynamic there of the older man having the money and support the younger man wants and the younger man having the youth and sexual status that the older man wants. You could make a case for either party being taken advantage of

I guess if it works it works, but I really don't think it does very often, since the relationship is based on this superficial exchange rather than enjoying things mutually (supporting each other mutually even if in different ways, feeling mutually attracted to one another, also having mutual romantic feelings.) In my partner's case, it ended up with him being cheated on, being blackmailed for money, being lied to (one guy wanted money to start a business, and then as soon as he had it he ran off.) I've seen situations where the older guy is actually the one cheating on the younger. And the truth is if you want youth and sex with a younger guy, you really don't need to pay for it. There are guys like me around who are genuinely attracted, look at sites like silverdaddies.com. It's not that you can't get a young guy without giving him your wallet, it's that some older men have a thing for taking in the young guy and being depended upon. My partner had to have some really bad experiences to learn that it's not a good foundation for a relationship.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Those aren't actually blue pill behaviors. Blue pill behavior is when you act in accordance with what feminism has taught you i.e. buy her flowers and lay your coat down in the puddle.

Can men manipulate other men? Sure. Can they do it in a similar fashion to women? Maybe, maybe not. Rollo theorizes that men are programmed to materially provide for women, but have no such drive for men. /u/narcissus88 argues the opposite, that men can be sugar daddies to other men just fine.

The biggest difference is that sex is cheap among men. Women have a monopoly on sex in the Hetero world and they've learned to keep the price high. Gay men don't have as much bargaining power with sex because its more freely available. In that respect, commitment (the beta bucks side of things) is much harder to get a hold of than the alpha fucks. Its a mirror image of the Hetero market.

As for should men do these things, the sexual market is an amoral place. Guys already do as they please regardless. The only thing that makes employing this type of game different is that you'd be conscious of your own strategy. Its up to you to work out your own moral code on that one. Red Pill has no should/shouldn't only can/can't.

[–]narcissus88 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Just a clarification. I believe that you can have sugardaddies, I've seen this; and I myself have paid very hot guys. I didn't consider it a bad bargain (they weren't gay) or think I was being taken advantage of. That said, prostitution (which is how most of the gay world worked and in many ways still does) is not the same as blue pill or red pill. Most of all, there's never any question of emotional support, doing chores, chivalry, etc.

I don't think a straight guy who pays to have sex with a very hot girl is "blue pill."

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree.

Buying drinks or dinner on the first date is a display of provider[beta] traits in a (poor) attempt to foster future attraction and hopefully gain sexual access.

Paying a prostitute has no element of attempting to build future attraction, and thus rightly so cannot really fit into the alpha/beta spectrum.

However, needing to pay a prostitute in order to get sex would be a beta trait because it displays you have no options.

[–]redgreenyellowblu 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

As someone else already said, a pairing of a well-off older gentleman and younger man is not in and of itself blue pill.

These arrangements seemed to once be more common among gays. But, as gays have increasingly adapted the conventions of liberal straights (feminist ideals) and adapted the youth-is-beauty ideal of the larger society, these relationships are increasingly looked down on. Not looked down on by all gays, of course, but many. The ideal is to be 20 to 40 somethings, both with a strong career. Too much of an age or economic power differential and one party is likely to be seen as a user, especially since there is not the stay-at-home parent role.

That being said, of course there are older gay men who are financially set that want a hot, and pleasant younger guy that is not married to his career. They still will want someone that creates an entirely favorable impression, whether that comes from intelligence, eductation, sense of humor, social ease, cultural sophistication, etc. For anybody, one's partner is a signal of one's prestige and social standing. And, what complicates things is that the older guy might want both worlds at once because he might not want to create the impression that he is a sugar daddy. So, he might want the perks of being a sugar daddy (you have to have your career on back burner) while you still have to work to not appear totally dependent. Then there's the possibility he wants someone that will not work at all so that you can travel when he wants to travel, etc. I have seen a few realtionships where this works out. And I have seen others where the dominant person never can keep the boyfriend long term because they choose guys that are 100% dependent precisely because they're just kind of flaky or fucked up and are on drugs and the dominant person gets sick of it and dumps them for the new loser.

I don't think it's cool to manipulate an older man to get something more than bargained for, and vice versa. This is the blue pill shit. An older man who has worked hard all his life wants an attractive partner or boyfriend that can actually be around. They want to enjoy life and not be put on the back burner. As I mentioned in the last paragraph, where there's room for trouble is where both parties haven't really made clear what it is they want because they are uncomfortable expressing their needs or feel the need to conform to society even though what they want is outside of societal norms.

To return to your question, of course we should not encourage blue pill manipulations. But, as long as society (and gays) cling to feminist ideals, this is going to happen because people will be fighting their inner natures. Young men might secretly want to be taken care of by a strong and wealthy older man, but feel ashamed of that impulse. So there will be various games to get what they secretly want but won't admit.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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