It's a fucking shame that this got buried by whoever downvoted sexyshoulderdevil

Well, you're probably going to think what I'm about to write is an even bigger shame, because you've prompted me to organize some thoughts that have been floating around in my mind incoherently, until just now.

EDIT: I've heard "you should turn this comment into a post" every so often, but I think I may actually do that this time.

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I do think all men in this position need to, essentially, invert the power dynamic to destroy it.

Whatever "score" your wife is keeping in her frame, you're always going to be losing. So the first step is to stop operating in her frame, and that's tough, and typically manifests as adversarial encounters just like OP described. So that's Phase 1.

The problem is sometimes that "score" has some validity to reality. If you're operating in your wife's frame, you have to do some thinking about whether the "98 to -5,200" numbers on her scoreboard would reflect an actual scoreboard. Sometimes, the wife is just an anxious mental wreck and her husband is essentially being gaslit. "Say no, then STFU and ignore her" his wife's hysterics have no basis in reality.

But this is not trivial if her hysterical reactions are based in reality. This is where we see problems manifest with our proverbial man-children. Their wives don't respect them because they're whiny, entitled, lazy, and irresponsible -- but at least they don't assert their own boundaries, so the wife manages the marriage in a way to mitigate the aforementioned whiny/entitled/laziness, similar to how she'd treat a rambunctious toddler in a kindergarten class. No Johnny, you can't just take Tommy's toy from him. Here, go in the corner and play with these fingerpaints. So yeah, no wonder these guys think their wives are being condescending bitches, even though they basically deserve it.

Then they read some Red Pill content and start throwing around ill-deserved boundaries all over the place. They announce they'll play with Tommy's toy whenever they fucking want, and if their wife doesn't like it, she can go fuck herself. This doesn't come across as a strong statement of boundaries, but just a whiny and entitled loser sounding even more whiny and entitled, and his wife responds accordingly. One huge fight later they're on MRP, posting something with the title of, Kicked out of Kindergarten Class Failed a Shit Test, Wife Mentioned Divorce.

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So that's Phase 1, "Stop Operating in Her Frame." But it requires two broad approaches that are pretty different.

Once you show you're strong enough to stop operating in her frame, to show you don't give a shit about whatever scorekeeping she's doing, then you'll earn her respect. She may not want to fuck you just yet, but she'll like you. That's when you've reached Phase 2, "Build Your Own Frame."

Transitioning from Phase 1 to Phase 2 sometimes requires a Main Event. A point where you essentially communicate: Look, if you expect me to keep operating in your frame, that's not happening. If you want to divorce over that, so be it.

But some guys already start at Phase 2, or close enough. So the aforementioned "Phase 1 Approach" -- set hard boundaries, ignore or deflect her inevitable Shit Tests, aggressively show you'll no longer tolerate her demands of supplicating behavior -- is destructive more than anything. These are the posts that are some version of: my wife raised a mostly reasonable complaint, I told her to shut the fuck up and left the house and went to the gym for four hours, should I also legally change my name or is this enough Dread?

And some commenters who had serious Phase 1 struggles go: YEAH WAY TO STOP HER ATTEMPT TO MAKE HER YOUR BETA BITCH DOWN COLD, but that wasn't really the problem. The dude is already in Phase 2. And if you're taking a Phase 1 approach in Phase 2, all you're doing is setting your marriage back to a Phase 1 relationship. Your wife didn't want to fuck you or follow your lead, but she liked you. Now she doesn't even like you. And those are actually the posts where I feel most compelled to write several thousand words describing why not everything coming out of your wife's mouth requires an aggressive counter-response, and is often just anxiety over the behavior you're expressing while building your own frame in Phase 2.

Because the next step is becoming strong enough, attractive enough, and appealing enough for her to operate in your frame. This usually manifests as increased sexual frequency and enthusiasm, but also manifests as more enthusiasm and enjoyment in general. You and your wife work hard, and play hard, and sometimes that play is mutually desirable and enjoyable sex. That's when you're at Phase 3, where "Your Wife is Operating In Your Frame."

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Phase 3 may never happen, and it can be frustrating when it doesn't, or if it takes a very long time. But that's another reason why these "acting with Phase 1 intensity in Phase 2" behavior is damaging. Because that usually means the frame you're trying to construct to transition to Phase 3, ends up introducing your own form of scorekeeping.

It manifests as an obsession MRP where those men constantly ask questions like:

• Did she fuck me all the times I initiated this week?
• If not, was it because she was on her period?
• If so, was it enthusiastic, or just starfish maintenance?
• Did she comply with my requests of her?
• Did she get pissed when I didn't comply with her requests of me?
• Should I do this nice thing she wants because I did that nice thing she wants?

Your marriage can reach the point where you get the answers you want to those questions ("yes", "n/a", "the former", "yes", "no", "probably"), but you never really reach Phase 3. You inverted the power dynamics, but you still operate in power dynamics, so your marriage never really reaches that virtuous cycle of both spouses adding value to each others' lives, and that happening frequently enough that keeping score is unnecessary.

I assume this is the ideal frame for most men here. Because otherwise, all you're donig is replacing her frame that had shitty scorekeeping, with your frame that has somewhat-less-but-still-mostly-shitty scorekeeping.

And this is also what compels me to offer a long drawn out deconstruction of why, for example, if you're enjoying watching a TV show with your wife, and then you get frisky but she turns you down for sex, maybe abruptly launching yourself off the couch and pretending it's totally normal to "go to the gym" at 10:45pm, in the middle of a "House of Cards" episode, and claiming I understand Outcome Independence, so I wasn't even upset... is literally retarded.

Because if you already started in Phase 2, chances are your wife was already emotionally well-adjusted and all that behavior will do is result in her NOT fucking you.

And if you started in Phase 1, then your wife WILL fuck you, but only because you've replaced her dynamics that had previously made you feel like an anxiety-ridden self-loathing wreck, into a new dynamic that makes her feel like an anxiety-ridden self-loathing wreck. Then they're back here on MRP asking why they still feel contempt for their wives, even though they now have sex as frequently as they want. Well, yeah, no shit.

Your wife's being stupid enough to fall for your bullshit, and you actually hate her for it.

Similar to how YOU were stupid enough to fall for YOUR WIFE's bullshit, and SHE actually hated YOU for it!

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See, you don't "win at Red Pill" when this happens.

You only win when your wife enters your frame, looks around, and asks, Wait, where's the scoreboard?

And you say, Oh, was hoping you'd show up. Funny you mention that, it's in the back.

And then she says, Wait, why isn't it on? It just says 'PC LOAD LETTER.' What the fuck does that mean?

And that's when you reply...

Hmm. Must be broken. I know how we can fix it, though.