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jacktenofhearts · 2016-02-11T11:40:57+00:00

If anything reminded me of "Every Unhappy wife is a Rape Victim," it's this.

(Really, just don't want to go .. no pussy, no commitment).

Yeah, so, don't do this. When a woman says "maybe I'd be more enthusiastic about sex if you did the dishes once in awhile," the natural implication is that, well, she's declaring her sexuality is apparently subject to an exchange of goods and services. Like... a prostitute. She probably doesn't realize "suggesting choreplay" = "acting like a prostitute," but isn't it? If any guy wants to end a any "choreplay" argument for all time, doesn't take much more than to just point this out.

Because it's not about the dishes themselves. Maybe she sees your unwillingness to do the dishes as a lack of emotional empathy that frustrates her. Maybe she sees the dishes as representative of a dirty and disorganized home that causes her constant anxiety. Maybe she sees them as yet another example of her incompetent Captain unable to execute or delegate basic household tasks. You don't do the dishes, because It's Not About the Dishes, and that's probably a good thing, unless you have a wife that's really into giving blowjobs in return for shiny cutlery.

So I hope you realize, when you so stupidly and transparently make your attention based on her sexual behavior, you're just suggesting the same kind of distasteful transaction. There's no narrative that you're just gradually withdrawing from a sexless marriage, because that's what any man in a sexless marriage should do. It's just transparent that you're throwing a tantrum, a tantrum that implies your attention for her sexuality is a transaction and since she's not paying up, then you, the Attention Prostitute, are lacing up your streetwalker heels and going home. So, I mean, if you act like an Attention Prostitute, even if you're wife took you up on that transaction -- "no sex, no commitment, OK fine, let's have sex" -- you think you're going to have an enjoyable and enthusiastic sexual experience with your wife?

C'mon, buddy. It looks like you've done a lot of reading but I don't think you're putting it together. Just because we tell you, "you don't have to be complacent with a sexless marriage, you're entitled to have your needs and desires and shouldn't accept being attacked or shamed" -- this isn't the way you want your wife to get that message. You were so fucking clearly butthurt, and your best option was to at least Own That Butthurtness, and maybe say something like: "Look, when shit like last night happens, I just feel rejected, and that's not your problem, but I don't know what else to tell you, except I'm not very eager to spend time around someone who makes me feel rejected." Some other guys here will tell you that's too many words, and they're right in that those words wouldn't convince your wife to fuck you.

But it would establish the narrative, that a sexless marriage means being with someone who is implicitly, if not explicitly, rejecting you all the time, and that's pretty shitty, and maybe you'll eventually start doing things to feel less shitty. And that would be an authentic narrative, because that's actually how you feel, as opposed to puffing out your chest with some bullshit about "never having a problem finding women." Your wife is clearly so fucking repulsed by you that she'd like nothing but for you to do that, if that means never having to be naked to your mere touch ever again.

We currently go to this marriage counselor (started before I found the red pill) who said that she needs to be included in my business life more to make her feel happy.

OK, so, one of two things are happening with your marriage counselor. One is that he's worthless, because I fucking tell you just from your 700 word victim puke, it's not about your business life. Your wife is just feeling an enormous emotional and intimate disconnect, and she essentially feels like you're just two entities on distant and parallel paths, that only intersect every once in awhile to co-parent. And maybe she said something like, he's just so focused on work, and I appreciate that, but it's like we're in our own worlds and never connect, and instead of at least drilling down and earning the fucking extortionist rates he's charging you for his Sweater Vest Fund, he just seized on "include her more in your business!" as a solution.

So, that's one possibility. The other possibility is that he did drill down in the psyche of what's going on, and you just tuned him out and started paying attention when he gave a practical suggestion. In which case, well, I don't know what the fuck you're paying this guy if you don't actually listen to him. I get it, you're probably some left-brained, quantitatively-minded, half-autistic retard like most of the other guys that stumble into AskMRP, but c'mon.

I am not suggesting you start going all super blue pill beta on your wife. But if you're planning a narrative and would like that narrative to cross her path, you probably need to think about where she's at. And where's at, dude, is really fucking far and disconnected from you. You haven't given much context on how this happened, and whether it was always this way, so I can't give you more insight beyond that. Shot in the dark, things shut down sexually after you had a kid, and you were way too whiny and entitled about sex afterwards, and she resented you for that and subconsciously started distancing herself from you as your sexual initiations became more and more repulsive.

She asks me to come lay down with her and I do... I push through and continue kissing.

She comes in later naked and says come to bed. I tell her I'm busy.

You think, champ, events like that have anything to do with this?

She then stays firm that she feels awkward around me and has never felt awkward around anyone else. She says she has felt awkward for 4 years.

You know, if someone said that to me, and their pattern of behavior indicated they 100% believed it and didn't just say it as a cheap shot, then I might reflect on that for awhile, instead of just jumping to:

Needless to say it's been months since I've had sex and it's getting ridiculous. I want to say either fuck me the way I want or get the fuck out.

Ugh. I guess I'll just ground the dead horse into gelatin, and point out that any sexual responsiveness you would get from this ultimatum, at this point, would just emphasize that being married to you means she has to fuck a man she finds repulsive. This may not be a message you want to to drive especially hard.

Trekneck · 2016-02-11T05:06:43+00:00

I say no problem, I take my raging hard on and go to my office. She comes in later naked and says come to bed. I tell her I'm busy.

Sure... decline the thing you wanted in the first place. Perhaps that IDGAF/Got shit to do attitude you showed when she shot you down worked. Next time, she may not come after you and be impressed by the lack of butthurt.

"Sweetie, I've never had a problem finding women.". (She met me in college when I had 2 girlfriends at the same time, she knows this.)

I don't know how long ago college was for you, but you can pretty much assume this is not in her mind, just yours. Just like all those chores you did over the weekend, don't count for shit when she gets pissed about the kitchen you decided not to clean up today. Don't expect brownie points for past experiences, mindsets, behaviors, etc. You can bet she doesn't care who you used to be, because at this point, that dude is long gone.

This woman will have sex with me one way... that's it. No other way because "it hurts" or "you're weird". She won't let me finger her because of "her c section scar". Oral is out of the question. It's fucking ridiculous. I'm sure she was fucked silly by Chad in college.

And you can bet she'd let him fuck her any way he wanted today. I'm not sure where you are in your sidebar reading, but make your way to SGM at some point. If you want a freak, you're going to have to LEAD her there. Don't expect a passion filled, enthusiastic back room first night fuck after years of beta behavior. You're in a situation that you've let deteriorate to a point where your wife won't sleep with you for 2 months. Your goal right now is just to get laid, period. Once you've gotten yourself to a place where you're getting laid, and handling rejection with the right attitude, then you can start concerning yourself with what she will and won't do. You just don't have the tingles going right now to be able to expect anything. Get her, fuck her the way YOU want to fuck, and keep at it until things have gotten to a better spot.

Straight up tells me that I should just go have sex with other people, but tell her before I do so she can divorce me.

She's challenging you. She knows that you won't, and doesn't believe that you could even if you tried. This is the level your SMV is currently at.

Bottom line her is it started off strong, and then you reverted into butthurt. When she came into your office naked, asking you to come into the bedroom, you fucked up. You let your butthurt over getting turned down the first time (despite handling it well, I assume, from your statements) fuck you over and instead of getting laid by a wife who just MAY have been impressed by your lack of giving a fuck at getting turned down, you chose to "stand your ground" by not getting what you wanted in the first place.

Two questions... exactly what are you doing to "workout every morning" and where are you at in your sidebar? If you're morning workout is riding the bike for 30 minutes, it's time to start getting out of the house and lifting some heavy shit 3 or 4 days of the week. If you're through several of the books, it's time to take a look at them again and readjusted your MAP and establish your frame (from the sound of things, possibly for the first time).

Sepean · 2016-02-12T09:07:22+00:00

It's been a bit over a year for me, and it sounds like I started out with a marriage in a worse shape than yours (we were more at "disgusted" than "awkward").

After a few months of actual progress, things got good. And then they got better. And better. There was a rough patch when she found me on MRP, but now she's even gone RPW and in all aspects she's an awesome wife - sexually, aesthetically, romantically, domestically.

Get with the program. Work hard. Stick to it. Be humble and honest to yourself about the areas you need to change and improve. It will work.

Been doing well with redpill philosophy. Recently read A guide to the good life (stoicism) by William B Irvine.

Introspection, bro. "Doing well with redpill philosophy" is in stark contrast to what you describe in the rest of your post.

And I see very little of the stoic tranquility and unbriddled joy that you read about in A guide to the good life. Are you practicing any of it? How often do you do negative visualisations? How often are you being ascetic (cold showers, fasting, whatever)?

It doesn't fucking matter what you read if you don't take it to heart.

Working out continually every morning.

It's great that you have hobbies.

But don't kid yourself, except for lifting, working out is just a hobby. It's a good hobby, but so is motorcycle restoration.

There is practically no other way to build an alpha physique than to lift. And lifting is code for "I do heavy compound lifts 3 times per week and count my calories so I hit my macros". If you're lifting every day, you're doing it wrong.

And just a side note: there are a few sports that tax your strength sufficiently that if you spend a lot of hours over many years doing them and your diet is good, you don't need to lift - if you're one of those people, fine. But for the vast majority, who need results fast and/or don't work out all the time, lifting is mandatory.

Building a real estate empire (MAP).

Good for you, but this is beta. It's good beta, but don't expect to get any alpha privileges from it.

I say no problem, I take my raging hard on and go to my office.

Why do you feel the need to say "no problem"? "No problem" is something you say either to make the other person not feel bad about what they did.

Saying stuff like that is a clear sign that your frame is weak and you don't have outcome independence.

Guys dealing with rejection so often post that they say stuff like this. It's like they think the road to outcome independence is to tell their wife they are OI. Well, it's not.

If you wanted to watch your favorite TV show but it wasn't on this week. That's something you are probably OI about, and you woudn't feel the need to tell your wife "Turns out there's no X-Files tonight, but no problem." You'd just watch something else.

She comes in later naked and says come to bed. I tell her I'm busy.

You're butthurt. After telling her you have "no problem". It's adding insult to injury.

Later she starts talking about all the appointments/activities she needs me to support her at over the weekend. I let her know I don't know if I can make it due to work (Really, just don't want to go .. no pussy, no commitment).

What is going on here? What sort of activities does she need "support" for?

Moving heavy objects or something technical? That's generally ok, and dude, the way to sex is to be attractive, and being a strong guy with useful skills who gets stuff done and fixes shit is attractive.
Some shit you don't want to be dragged along to like buying flowers? A man with frame just says he doesn't want to do that. Not because of work, but because he just doesn't want to.
Is it some family event you should be participating in willingly but you're butthurt so you're framing it as something she needs "support" for? Stop being butthurt, it's unattractive. Be outcome independent, her rejection should not get to you so bad that you're moping and not doing stuff you would and should be doing.

I don't which it is, but I smell weak frame.

I tell her she has no reason to be mad at me because she asked me to leave.

This is not passing a shit test. You're trying to win an argument about who has the right to be mad. Brush it off. Use A&A or AM, keep the tone light and funny even when she's mad. Don't let her drag you into arguments.

And again, this is something you need to internalize. Of course there's an element of "fake it till you make it", but this is not just some verbal judo trick you need to memorize. The idea here is that you stop thinking about this as "who has a right be mad". You stop thinking about her being mad over something as actually being about that something. It's a test of your frame. Respond with frame, not with DEERing.

So anyway, I equated that happiness as commitment versus the sexual needs for a man. That if I don't have my needs met, there's no need of commitment.

That's sort of true, but that's the beta bucks deal. If you can't bring alpha, then it is take it or leave it. You can't just read about the red pill, opt out of BB and expect anything but MGTOW unless you alpha up.

I realize this is totally fucked, not sure how to unfuck.

The only thing fucked is your SMV, and the only way to unfuck is increasing your SMV. The bigger part of your SMV is your frame. Build it. Make it strong.

I want to say either fuck me the way I want or get the fuck out. However, I have a young toddler, if it weren't for that I wouldn't even be here right now.

Leaving her won't increase your SMV. It won't be better next time around.

You need to do some work on improving yourself. And that takes time. What you're talking about is quitting before you made an attempt to fix things. From MMSLP to BPP's 12 levels of dread, everywhere it says you need to do a lot of work before you drop that ultimatum.

And most likely you won't have to drop that ultimatum, because the work will improve your SMV and your wife will naturally want to have sex with you. A lot.

I've been where you are, and I understand the pain and frustration. But unlike the marriage counselling bullshit, MRP is a real fix. You'll become a strong man and regain your sense of masculinity. You'll work hard and smart at maximizing your alpha and your good beta, and your wife will respond to that with love, respect and attraction.

Lift and lead.

[deleted] · 2016-02-11T12:54:36+00:00

Are you an awkward dude? You say you're working out continually, but fatass Pam in HR says the same thing and that it's her 'genetics' that keeps her a disgusting beef goblin (couldn't be the 6k calories a day of pure shit right?).

If you don't have any level of awareness, game, or a hot body maybe you just skeeve your wife out.

FearDearg2015 · 2016-02-11T13:47:07+00:00

I say no problem, I take my raging hard on and go to my office. She comes in later naked and says come to bed. I tell her I'm busy.

I literally hung my head when I read this bit, and couldn't read any more until I at least got this out of my system.

Take a look at discovery channel, any nature programme you like. Look out for instances where a female presents herself in a mating ritual, and subsequently gets rejected by the male. Maybe you'll find some, but those would be the exceptions, not the rule. Females control access to sex. Sure, maybe you could have followed her in, or just even escalated right there in your office. Maybe she would have rejected you again. So what? You just go back to what you were doing. Your rejection of her comes across as a punishment for her earlier rejection.

BluepillProfessor · 2016-02-16T18:57:33+00:00

Now you know why we say don't have these discussions with women. Your wife totally gaslighted you about what happened and you just accepted it. You accepted HER frame that she is a long suffering "rape victim" and validated her emotions.

You want to know the really sick thing? If you actually HAD raped your wife in that moment- I mean just grabbed her and fucked the shit out of her before she even knew what was happening she would not have felt in her soul that this was rape. Nope- only the butthurt backing off of a beta male provider who is to NIIIICE to grab the woman and fuck some sense into her invokes that emotion.

I believe this is a Level 9 Dread Moment (sex is a requirement of marriage). Possibly even Level 10 (Fuck me or fuck you). I would have coldly explained to my wife that sex is a requirement of marriage and if she does not want to sex with you then you are not married. You sort of, kind of did that but you were hurt and that is perfectly understandable.

Since you are already in "therapy" perhaps this is a place the issue can be directly confronted? IF you can stay calm and rational and IF you have your level 9 Dread Demand in place- that is reasonable and simple and everybody who is reasonable and rational would agree with you then yes, you can unfuck this with or without therapy.

Your ONLY move is to back off as you have been doing. If you are 'not married' then I would give her no more attention than you would if you were divorced. That is, coordinate with the kids or whatever but the rest of the time I would be out day gaming. If you are even remotely decent looking you will have a girlfriend/plate/fuckbuddy within 2 weeks.

Hopefully you understand what has happened.

YOU HAVE BEEN FRIEND-ZONED BY YOUR OWN WIFE. Climb into bed. Cuddle me. Validate me. Your blue balls? All you want me is for sex!

All of her temper tantrum bullshit is because she wants her nice little Beta to behave and keep doing things for her. You are nothing but a simp, pathetic, beta orbiter in her mind. Why would she want to fuck that?

If that pisses you off then good. You need to break in your mind the unbreakable connection that you have to your wife. SHE needs to realize that her unbreakable connection- her chains- that she wrapped around you so tight you can barely breathe are not actually locked. The process is not instantaneous and usually takes a few months but you can step out of this cage any time you choose.

Like Jack explained, you need to own your hurt. Your wife is treating you with profound disrespect by inviting you into bed, getting naked and then turning you down like that. I would have taken my hard on straight to the strip club and bought a BJ right on the spot. Fuck her. Stop sublimating your legitimate feelings and desires.

cj_aubrey · 2016-02-11T06:25:44+00:00

She comes in later naked and says come to bed. I tell her I'm busy.

I think perhaps "We're not going to bed, you're going to fuck me right here on my desk" might have been a better response. Still dominate but not sabotaging what you want.

She says she's awkward.. I push through and continue kissing. She is now pulling away from kisses. Finally snaps and says this is too awkward and to get off.

I'm currently having a problem with my wife associating my initiating with all the pressure i put her under for years. You sound aggressive like me. Might be a similar problem.

SexistFlyingPig · 2016-02-11T08:24:46+00:00

This is why there are 12 levels of dread: so you don't go from abstinence to divorce in one step.

So go follow the 12 steps of dread. Reading the other comments, it sounds like you're lifting and losing weight, which is great. Next step would be to upgrade your wardrobe and haircut. You talk about kicking ass at work: she doesn't see this. She doesn't want to fuck your job, she wants to want to fuck you, but you're not doing it for her. Your awesome job makes you more beta bucks, not more alpha fucks. That's the tricky part about MRP compared to TRP: you have to be both.

Good luck.

edit: acta non verba. You can't say "I have no problems getting other women." You have to show it and NOT talk about it, with dread.

pullypants · 2016-02-11T11:22:33+00:00

Your woman walks into your room naked while you have a boner, you jump on her right there. She says no, you get busy with something else. Declining only makes you look like a big huffy man baby.

Have you read the sidebar? You appear to be missing some of the fundamentals. I'd reccomend MMSLP as a good starting point for your situation, you look like a classic case.

She doesn't view you as a man, you're a pathetic, unattractive and frankly repulsive needy man baby. This is what you need to change before she will want to have sex with you.

This is what you need ultimately, you can't negotiate sex, you can't obligate her into sex, you can pressure her into sex short term, but she won't like it. This is where the 'weird' feeling she has comes from, she's emotionally connected but unnatracted to you. Women can often find this hard to articulate, or she might just be sparing your feelings.

Read, learn, man up, stop getting owned by your wife.

[deleted] · 2016-02-11T11:26:28+00:00

Kind of reads like a cad post that's all talk, no. Action.

If you want to go hard core, you have to own it, don't do it half assed, focus on what you want, and stop veering off in the power play

Griever114 · 2016-02-11T15:37:23+00:00

We currently go to this marriage counselor (started before I found the red pill) who said that she needs to be included in my business life more to make her feel happy.

Ummm, wtf? Thats bullshit