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Why don't we use the words "I'm Sorry" (self.askMRP)

submitted by beta_since_in_utero

Career Beta here, quickly - my progress: I have read NMMNG and MSLP. I have started WISNIFG. Mostly handle shit tests with STFU because my confidence isn't there yet for me to be ready with A&A or AM. I still get a pit in my stomach when she gets bitchy. I still catch myself in her frame. Wife acts like an alpha but can't control her emotions. In a way, for me, redpill is mutiny.

tl;dr; A couple of months ago, I did something my wife didn't like. I admitted I could have done differently, but did not say "I'm Sorry". Fast forward to this past Wednesday, I did something from her frame. Later I said I could have handled it better and said that it was something for me to work on. I didn't say "I'm Sorry". She seems hung up on those words being required in an apology. I feel like I am going through some motions here without understanding why I don't say those specific words.

She says if I say "I made a mistake" that puts in on me. But saying "I'm sorry" carries it over to her. I don't have a response other than to try to use logic, which I know won't work.

The context I have gathered is that we are the only judges of us that matter, but I can't tell her that.

Wall of Text

A couple of months ago I told my wife I was going to happy hour - she got pissed that I didn't ask. I told her I should have checked that we didn't have anything else going on (we didn't, and I knew). But I didn't say "I'm sorry". I'm pretty sure I beta'd my way out of this one in the end.

Right now, we are dead broke. CC's maxed out $30 in checking. The worst it has ever been. I have always paid the bills, but she has done most of the daily spending as a SAHM. I showed her where we were heading a couple months ago (I keep spreadsheets of everything), but really haven't owned finances completely yet. So, Monday she was feeling very stressed. I came in the door from work, the kids were all greeting me and she made a comment about having cried twice today but didn't want to talk about it. I failed this comfort test. I had been up late the previous night working on a side project to get some extra money and was very tired. I crashed shortly after the kids and apologized (oops) that I couldn't stay up and talk with her. Tuesday, I didn't bring it up (she takes our daughter to dance and chats with all the dance mom's) and I was doing more work. Wednesday she goes to get some things at the store, and applies for a store CC. She get's declined and is embarrassed in front of our two boys. She gets a couple things she knows we can afford (non necessities) but sends the kids away as if she is buying an x-mas gift, so they don't have to see the card get declined if that happens.

So, that night she gets back home after I do, and she lays into me. Saying I'm not helping her solve the problem and she feels alone. Her typical approach to arguments is to make sure she does all the talking, so STFU is pretty easy. I said I told her to return some things last weekend and she hadn't done that. So I took those things and left. I didn't hold frame here. I failed this test. So then I get a store CC to make her not feel the symptoms, even though I know it will make the underlying condition worse. She sit tests me all night, I just keep away. The next morning I go to tell her how to use it (requires a pin for the temp card). She asks if I added her name to it. I said that customer service said I needed the physical card to do that. She called me a liar, so I started to leave the room because I wasn't in the mood. Then she thanked me for getting the card. I said "you're welcome" and kept walking. Then she got mad because I didn't tell her the pin (I had just turned around when she started calling me a liar), I turned around and said, "yeah, I got distracted.." I was about to tell her when she turned on her bitch mode again and I said "I would be happy to tell you the pin, but when you can talk to me with respect". This set off a temper tantrum where books were thrown (not directly at me) and she said I started a civil war.

Two days of silent treatment followed. I just hung out with the kids and had a good time. Then Friday she says that her friend says I am "passive aggressively controller (wtf is that?!)". She said she is going to get a job, and not put one penny of it into the family funds, but save it to get away from me. She said she doesn't want to be friends, and she will just be civil. (I am paraphrasing the pages and pages of texts she sent)

So since then, she has been civil. But that's it. The best part is, I've gotten so much shit done. And I can keep getting shit done. I think now she is more mad that I don't seem to be making an effort to fix things between us. I want to tell her "you had a problem you wanted help with, you didn't tell me, and then you decided you were done with me because I can't read your mind" - but I know logic won't help.

So, I'm stuck. I can keep enjoying being productive, and not give her attention and maybe she turns around. But I think her narcissism will likely keep us in a stale mate.


[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

People say sorry when they feel bad, so they can allieviate themselves of guilt by asking for forgiveness. There is no assumption of changing behaviour, in fact, many women apologize for the same thing all the time.

Never apologize. If you were doing something and knew what would happen, you aren't sorry, omlettes/eggs...

if you didn't know, then you have some learning to do, and it won't happen again.

... Wait a minute, what?

  • A couple of months ago I told my wife I was going to happy hour
  • Right now, we are dead broke.
  • she has done most of the daily spending as a SAHM
  • working on a side project to get some extra money and was very tired.
  • So then I get a store CC to make her not feel the symptoms even though I know it will make the underlying condition worse

What the fuck. where is your budget? Are you spending like an idiot, or is she? Did you buy a house and car you cannot afford? Why does she have cards for spending? Why are you enabling her by giving her arguably the worst form of credit available?

Tell me. Last month, how much did you spend on the following items:

  • Food (groceries)
  • Food (eating out, indulgence purchases)
  • Clothes
  • Essentials (toilet paper etc)
  • Rent, phone, power, internet etc.
  • Interest payments
  • Booze
  • Misclaneous stuff?

How much have you spent so far this month on the above? If you don't know off the top of your head, then you need to give your head a shake. I'm cracking down myself, and I can say) off the top of my head:

100 20 0 60 1600 250(125) 50 0(will be 80 for a flight)

If you're not able to do that with a budget, then you have no business drinking your problems away at happy hour. You're literally being drunk captain, to the point that your wife (who needs a credit card for clothes to get by) sees the problem, and has no faith in you to fix this (she won't)

You need to stop the bleeding. find out where your money is going, and cut it down until you are at a place where you're at least breaking even, preferably saving money. you're sitting here talking about passing shit tests and comfort tests... Are you able to pass basic life skills first? Do I need to mention how bad this is for your childrens forming of their fiscal future?

fuck passive aggressive control. You need active control. I've been there with a SO that doesn't know what money does. I sat there, disappointed as hell (early in my MAP by the way, so I was not ready IMO) confiscated her credit card, and put us on life support mode until we got back in the black. She's just started now. I didn't buy expensive shit, I lead by example, and my current monthly spending (for everything but my 1600 for essentials) is basically 300 dollars, so I'm not just talking tough, I'm actively fixing this shit now that she is financially tied to me (mortgage and car is now in both our names)

But more importantly, is she going to have the faith to trust you to lead this? Can you? Yeah, those tests you failed would have been a perfect time to give your locker room halftime speech. The family is fucked, and it's getting fixed... today. I see us back to the way we used to be. taking vacations, not worrying about money, saving for an awesome future... you get the point.

Do you currently have the hard skills required to right this ship? I'm asking sincerely, because I can't believe the way you talk about it, it boggles the mind how compartmentalized your FR and 'advice' is with this

[–]beta_since_in_utero[S] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for reason behind not apologizing. That makes sense.

What the fuck. where is your budget? Are you spending like an idiot, or is she?

Good Question. I laid it out, but I'm not enforcing it. I am enabling the problem 100%. I'm watching it happen, and don't have the balls to do a thing about it. I am setting up YNAB right now.

Tell me. Last month, how much did you spend on the following items

I pay all the bills, I know our mortgage, average utilities, car, cc payments, etc... all that off the top of my head. The remainder goes to discretionary which she has control of mostly. So, Food, Clothes, etc are not budgeted. My wife will use checking right after she knows I got paid, but eventually she doesn't know what's in the account, so she will use a credit card so she isn't embarrassed by getting declined. Or she does know what we have (because she calls me) and then puts too much in the cart, and then goes to credit card. So I got a charge card, so it wouldn't build interest, but she uses that and we are constantly borrowing from the future month. At the start of this month, I said we have $650 for the next two weeks. Four days later I say there is $60 left. She said "How is that possible". Or her other favorite, "I don't get it, I'm not spending out of the ordinary, it's just groceries and things we need" - like money spent on necessities doesn't count somehow. I need to put the money in front of her, I'm hoping YNAB can help with that. But I need to enforce the use of it, and the sticking to the budget.

I spend very little each month. She tells me I should get new clothes, and I say we can't do that. Then she tells me to just charge it, we will make it work. And I say no. I'm fine with my financial choices. I make sacrifices. But she probably doesn't know it because I don't walk around tell her all the things I didn't buy.

I get it. I'm aware of all the things I'm doing wrong. But in the past, doing the wrong thing and hating myself was easier than doing the right thing and have her bitch at me. I'm weak.

Do you currently have the hard skills required to right this ship?

From a strict "how does money work" standpoint. I have the hard skills. I know what we should be doing. I've been pissed at myself for not making them happen. If I was on my own - no problem. What I always lacked was the tools to be captain. NMMNG described me to a T.

But more importantly, is she going to have the faith to trust you to lead this?

No, she doesn't trust me at all. Especially with finances. She feels like I hold her lack of an income over her head. She will flip her shit when I take cards away.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I can't blame her, you let her nickel and dime the house to death.

I'm speaking from experience here, if you aren't willing to leave over the issue of finances, then you're going to lose. I have my own field reports on this exact subject..

Mine was crying in the floor during my taking off control. Crying on the kitchen floor... I held firm, and 5 minutes later she's sitting on my lap, and "helping" me structure the finances into something she can live with, under the premise that the number I have is the one she had to stay under. I went - 20% because I knew she wouldn't make it, and it gave breathing room.

This, to me, would be up there with a girls night out in another country... This is the stuff that kills relationships, forces guys to stay in bullshit careers they don't like, and kids who can't go to college when they get older.

She takes it at seriously as you do man. I know we are off topic, this is my "trigger"

[–]enfier1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Use the Envelope budgeting system. Get a bunch of envelopes, label them with a category and amount. When you get paid, fill the envelopes with the amount of cash written on it. Take away all the credit and debit cards. Freeze them in a block of ice if needed.

It's literally impossible to fuck this system up and spend too much. You can move money around in between envelopes all you want.

[–]beta_since_in_utero[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I like this idea. There is no room for laziness or ignorance as there is with a technology based solution. Thank you for the idea.

[–]enfier1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's really hard to argue feels with an empty envelope. It also doesn't require any math and really difficult to impulse buy something.

I use YNAB. It's great. There's a series of training sessions that are a must watch, I'm not sure if you've been through them. If you haven't read a book on budgeting, I'd suggest Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover.

One thing I've learned over the years is that simple and dumb tends to work better than complicated and smart. The real challenge is psychological, and a simple plan like the one in Dave Ramsey's book with cash in envelopes if followed will put you in a better place than most of your peers.

[–]TheOakenshield0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

YNAB is a great tool. Make sure to follow the advice from the site and continue reading on it. I've had great success using this for budgeting.

I've been down this road. This is near where I found my family because I was not being the Captain I needed to be. I was not leading. This needs be a do or die. She is onboard and helping or you drop her. Give her some time to come around, but once you start leading on this, if she doesn't come around, fuck her. Honestly, your financial life and that of your children's is at risk.

Whatever it takes you need to right this ship. I locked us down tight and even required that we showed each other receipts of shopping trips. My wife was buying treats for herself during grocery trips. Notice I made both of us do this, you have to lead. Drastic, maybe, but when you are in a situation like that sometimes it is necessary.

Can you increase your salary? Another area I was beta in was my career. Since August of 2014 I have increased my salary 267% simply by working with someone on my resume, making it more focused, refining it more to appeal to what I like doing, and putting it out there. I got a new job and then got recruited for another. Before this I thought about a part time job, but it's the wrong thought when you aren't maximizing the salary of your current job/career.

Also get an account at Personal Capital. Track your net worth there rather than in YNAB. Show it to your wife regularly so she sees what dire straits you are in. Work on changing your focus from living paycheck to paycheck to building your net worth. It'll take time but make a large difference.

Sell anything you can. Anything. I hate clutter and we had clutter. My rule was if it burned up in a house fire and I wouldn't replace it I put it one of three bins: sell, donate, trash. Sell what you can sell.

Coupon. It sounds lame, but I showed my wife how she could essentially make hundreds of dollars an hour by couponing. She does it regularly now. Our grocery budget includes essentials like paper towels, toilet paper, etc and we stay between $600 and $700 a month for a family of 6. This includes diapers for a 2 month old, grass fed beef, quality food. It can be done it takes hard work. For Christmas she buys a good amount on Amazon. The wife saw that our local grocery store was offering increased fuel perks for gift cards. She knew our budget for Christmas, got gift cards for an amount under the limit, stayed under the limit and got us extra savings in fuel. Say she took about 2 minutes thinking this through, and doing it, thats about $325 an hour. Spending time doing things like this is better than a part time job.

Read. Read on financial topics. Listen to podcasts on finances to continuing educating yourself. Lead on this.

[–]beta_since_in_utero[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Can you increase your salary?

This is one place I think I have done well. For my career I make excellent money. Annual reviews are this week, and I don't intend to settle for 2%.

Also get an account at Personal Capital

I will look into this. Thanks for all the advice. I will work on educating myself.

[–]jacktenofheartsRed Beret7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Look, the only meaningful apology is something that communicates this:

*I did/didn't do X and I realize now that I hurt you [emotionally, financially, materially, etc]. I recognize my actions had a negative impact on you, I regret my decisions, and would have made different decisions if I could do them over again."

That's it. This is the only version of a sincere apology. And if you *do feel this way, you probably didn't just say, "sorry." You probably apologized with a lot more words, and your recipient sighed and said, "... OK. I'll get over it. Thank you for the apology. At least you understood why I'm so upset about this."

Or they said: "That's not enough. You can't go back in time. What's done is done. It's going to be a long time before I can forgive you, if ever."

An apology is a recognition of your actions hurting others, regret that you took those actions, and a request for forgiveness. I guarantee you that 99% of times you've said "sorry" in your life, one or more of those prerequisites was missing. Which meant your apology sounded like this:

  • "I don't even really know what you're mad about, but whatever it is, I'm sorry."
  • "I know you're pissed off about, although I don't think you should be, but your frustration seems disproportionate enough so I guess I'm sorry."
  • "Even though I've done this several times already which means I clearly don't think your issue has any validity and don't plan on modifying my behavior in the future, I'm sorry."

This is why our wives give us "shit" for sorry. We're not owning the apology. We're just hand-waving at the hamster, hoping its distracted enough to keep spinning. Hamsters are usually smarter than that.

Now, what's the opposite extreme? When someone is described as "literally incapable of saying I'm sorry," that's probably not true. They've probably "literally" said the word "sorry" at least a few times in their life. The problem isn't the lack of apologies though, it's that they decline to apologize in a way that completely invalidates the other person's feelings.

You can validate someone's feelings and not apologize. If you want to pass Comfort Tests like a champ, you will need to get very good at this skill. The whole point of techniques like Fogging in WISNIFG is to figure out just why the fuck your wife's hamster is out of control.

Let's use a similar example to one of OP's issues: you go to happy hour after work with a buddy, you come home from work, and your wife greets you with a hostile, "oh look who walked in the door, it's Mr. Does-Whatever-the-Fuck-He-Wants."

Flaming Shit Test, right? Eh. If your wife is usually pleasant, then probably not. It's probably a Shitty Comfort Test. What you don't want to do is say, "sorry I went out and got a drink with a friend." Because are you sorry? Fuck no, not for that! So if you give you insincere sorry, this happens:

  • Wife: "Fat chance you're sorry, you only care about yourself."
  • Husband: "Why do you think that? Just because I got a drink with a friend?"
  • Wife: "Well I'd love to 'get drinks with friends,' but someone has to deal with the kids. Maybe try coming home after work like a real father."
  • Husband: "I told you about this ahead of time though."
  • Wife: "Oh, well, I guess it's in the calendar, so you have to do it. Clearly your friend matters more than your family."
  • Husband: "Fine, I'll just come home after work every day then. Happy?"
  • Wife: "Yeah, whatever."

This is why MRP says "never say sorry." Because you entered her frame, made a concession, and did you even get any gratitude for it? Of course not. Insincere apologies never get you gratitude, they just get you contempt. A month later, our example husband will say, "oh Rob wants me to play in his soccer game on Friday" and the wife will say, "oh what happened to always coming home after work? I guess that's another empty promise."

So let's rewind our example. Our husband assumes Shit Test, uses A/A, and says, "actually, I have a PhD, so I should be called Dr. Does-Whatever-the-Fuck-He-Wants." And his wife goes from sneering to a total emotional meltdown in 1.5 seconds. WHY THE FUCK DO YOU TURN EVERYTHING INTO A BIG JOKE!? DO YOU EVEN CARE ABOUT ANYONE IN THIS FAMILY!? I HAD THE WORST DAY AT WORK AND THE KIDS WERE A DISASTER AND YOU DON'T EVEN GIVE A SHIT!

Oops. That's why it was a Shitty Comfort Test. She doesn't care about the happy hour at all. This isn't a battle over whether you're entitled to see a friend after work. This is all about her having a bad day, getting home, having her bad continue, wishing you were there to help, and getting upset you weren't. Not upset at you, really, just upset the confluence of shitty circumstances over a 24 hour period that by definition defines a bad day. And one of those circumstances was this all coincidentally happened on a day you made other plans so you couldn't be there to help. It's not your fault. You didn't cause her shitty day. You couldn't have predicted those things could have happened. There's nothing to apologize for, so don't say sorry.

But as per my A/A example, just because your wife is acting upset as you for no justification, that doesn't mean you need to invalidate her feelings. She had a bad day. She should be upset. She just doesn't have to be upset at you. And the easiest way for her to realize this is to say something like, "Bad day? What happened?" And then: "Man, toddlers are a pain in the ass. Remember when he was a baby and we thought that was hard? Jesus."

And she'll give a begrudged chuckle, and you'll say "come here, you had a bad day and look like you need your own happy hour, so have a glass of wine with me," and you enjoy that glass of wine with her, then another, then you bend her over the kitchen counter and rail her from behind.

[–]beta_since_in_utero[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for the concrete example. That helps me a lot. I think I have had a lot of Shitty Comfort Tests lately. The outcome of your example is way better than what I'm achieving right now.

[–]MRPguy1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

We don't say "I'm Sorry" because we aren't. We are simply learning to be Men and growing in many ways. This involves making mistakes because we are human. Taking chances and risk involves things that go awry. Our human nature means things go awry.

Saying "I'm sorry" is typical female BS. It fixes nothing. What a Man does is recognize the problem and then take steps to fix it so it doesn't happen again. In doing so he assures his wife that actions have been taken that will prevent further issues. She may bitch and moan but she IS happy that you are doing your job as protector.

"I'm sorry" is a cop-out that is used to eliminate blame and does nothing to improve situations or strengthen relationships.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think you apologize when you fuck up and it negatively impacts another person. If nobody got hurt/inconvenienced whatever then it is a mistakes were made apology/non apology.

[–]strategos_autokratorRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I wrote a whole post about apologies, including a section of how to apologize like a man.

[–]cholomiteMod / BP Downvote Magnet1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Apologies are just words, words are meaningless for men. Making someone apologize is a form of forcing submission. Nothing matters but the actions you take in response to the issue, any apology you make is just submitting to her frame and any action you take after that is meaningless.

If she doesn't like that you won't apologize, tell her she doesn't have to like it. Just keep handling your shit. She's throwing up a lot of shit your way but don't back down or become soft again, as Winston Churchill said,

"When you're going through hell, keep going"

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Same reason Donald Trump doesn't say I'm sorry. Appeasement for other people's grievances/emotions is weak shit.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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