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Field ReportDon’t be afraid to get up and WALK OUT ON A DATE five minutes in if she oversteps your boundaries in any way (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by IGoYouStayTwoAutumns

ALTERNATE TITLE: Know what your RULES are up front and don't break them for anybody. Ever. (Not even for the so-called "unicorns".)

SUMMARY:

As we say in Hollywood, you can tell if the script sucks simply by glancing at the first page. Typos? Bad grammar? Poor control of white space? If that's the writer's page 1 impression, it ain't gettin' any better on page 10. Or 50. Or 100.

As it is with the arts, so it is with dating. That first encounter? The one where she's on her very best behavior? That's the best you're ever gonna get her. So if she crosses the line / oversteps your boundaries then, feel free to get up and walk. That's all there is to it.

BODY:

So there was a field report posted here just a little while ago, one that Rollo gave a lengthy analysis of--I left a long comment on the post re: "Wow, this sure reads a lot like Red Pill porn to me..." (Another reader wrote, succinctly, "Someone's been reading too many Penthouse letters"--this should have been the top comment.) And it's true, I feel like a lot of the FRs here (as of late) are less about teaching the reader something valuable, and a lot more about the writer trying to assuage his deep dark suspicion that maybe, just maybe, he's a little bit more beta than he thinks he is...

Well fear not, dear reader, we're gonna get into all kinds of fuck-ups with this one. If I was a basketball player playing at the pro level, and I told you "Yeah, I had a great game last night, I hit every single shot I took, swish swish, just like that, zero errors in the entire game" you'd probably wonder who, exactly, I was playing against. If I assured you it was another pro, then you'd probably assume I was lying. (And you'd be right, I would be.) Well guess what: this aptly describes a whole lot of FRs on this sub (and in the man-o-sphere in general)--perfect players who say and do everything perfectly all the time. How would rate a world champion chess player who played a tournament level game without losing a single piece? Yep, exactly. So in my effort to bring a little more openness and transparency to the process, and show some of the newbies out there how even someone who's been around the block a few times can still drop the ball (a lot), let's get into it, shall we?

THE ONLINE MEET

So everyone has their unicorn (or I perhaps should say, "unicorn type"), and I find that this varies quite a bit according to the environment that you're currently in. When I was living in NYC, all the girls were highly educated (minimum college degree, most had grad degrees), and in a city where smarts were a given, it was the laid back, chill, funny, FUN girl that was the real unicorn. Now that I'm in LA (and have been for a few years), it's quite the opposite: LA is the town where all the popular, good-looking kids in high school (the ones that scraped by with a C- average) go to "get famous" (no particular ambition, just "I wanna be famous"), and thus now I'm surrounded by women who are beautiful, fun, outgoing, EXTREMELY socially adept (one might use the term "pro hustlers" here, and one wouldn't be far off the mark), and yet, at the same time, haven't read a single book in the past year (in fact, I'm not joking in the slightest when I say that many of the women I've met out here have never actually read a book cover-to-cover in their entire lives. The real joke: some of them, like my best friend the stripper / escort, who surely deserves a series of her own posts (coming soon), make more in a single night than most of the highly educated women of NYC make in an entire year).

So for me, out here in Hollywood, the cute, smart, COLLEGE-EDUCATED girl is the real unicorn. And thus, when I found myself on OKCupid just a few weeks back, sifting through the usual swamp of awfulness that is the Hollywood online singles scene ("I'm a transgender female, AND IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE THAT..."--I mean, Jesus fucking Christ), and I came across a profile that: 1) had a really cute pic, and 2) was extremely well written (by an obviously extremely well read, highly educated female), I knew I'd found something special--and thus, I was in it to win it.

(I'm emphasizing the "unicorn-ness" of this woman, here, by the way, relative to the typical LA dating scene, because it'll help to explain why I started breaking so many of my "unbreakable" rules later on as the whole dating process started to get underway).

So I picked out one of her stated interests at random (Almodovar, a director we both love), I opened her on that (can't remember the exact line but it was short), she wrote back right away, and a few minutes later we started messaging back and forth. She was, obviously, very, very into me, and MOST of her interest, clearly, was based off the text in my profile (I have a lengthy bit of text there, surprise surprise, goes against the grain a bit but I like it that way--it knocks out most women right up front but the ones that DO get through it, and like it, I know I have an instant "in" with, which is part of the reason why my close rate is so high).

So after a few witty back and forths she says "Can I call you?" I say "Sure, let's chat for a few"--and guess what:

I just broke Rule #1: NEVER TALK WITH A GIRL ON THE PHONE BEFORE THE FIRST DATE

I don't know what it is but every time I've talked with a girl (that I met online) on the phone before we go on a date, it always, ALWAYS ends in disaster. Sometimes you have great chemistry on the phone and then it's strained and awkward in real life (and thus you're left to wonder "What's wrong here? What's MISSING??"), other times, the girl just thinks "Well I talked to him on the phone, and we got on great, so he must be one of my GIRLFRIENDS, now..." There are a lot of reasons why this theory holds true, but really, I think it just comes down to this: if the girl isn't already "feeling you" enough to want to get out and meet you for at least a drink or two (this from a combination of your profile and the few text messages you've exchanged), it means that 1) you haven't generated enough attraction in her, and she's trying UP that attraction quotient by getting you on the phone (not realizing it'll do the exact opposite, of course), and 2) she's extremely risk averse, and needs the reassurance of your voice on the phone, but then of course extremely risk averse girls are not the ones you want to be going out on first dates with, because they nitpick everything to death, find fault in everything, and just generally go out of their way to kill the vibe.

BUT. BUTBUTBUT. I thought "Well, hey, this girl's DIFFERENT, she's an extremely intelligent, highly educated artsy cool girl LIVING IN LA so clearly she's an exception to the rule, and thus I SHOULD MAKE AN EXCEPTION FOR HER. (You know it's all downhill from here on out...)

So we get on the phone, and it's awesome. And I mean like, AWESOME phone chemistry. The convo just flowed. I'm talking about 20th century atonal composers, and she's like "Oh yeah, I studied with this famous minimalist cello player and composer, so-and-so..." and I'm thinking holy fucking christ, I think I just somehow stumbled upon THE ONLY SMART SINGLE GIRL IN ALL OF LOS ANGELES. (And then, that little voice in the back of my mind: "So what gives..??")

So we chat for like an hour, at the end of which I suggest we get together at my usual first date spot (just underneath my building, it's got the perfect vibe for coffee, drinks, and / or food, it's walking distance to a ton of other great hotspots, AND, if we're really into each other, my apt is just an elevator ride away), at which point--

I break Rule #2: NEVER LET HER PICK THE FIRST DATE SPOT (AS YOU'RE THUS SURRENDERING THE FRAME ACCORDINGLY)

And here's the thing, I'm very aware that I'm breaking rules right and left here, but because I feel like I'm about to get it on with the one-and-only unicorn in all of LA, I let her get away with it, because I don't want to risk the unicorn getting away, never to be seen again. I mean shit, I've been living in Hollywood for a few years now and I finally met a single girl who READS BOOKS, holy fucking shit, we better lock this one down ASAP.

And here's the other thing: it's very, very subtle, isn't it, it's a very quick and QUIET process, this letting go of the frame. It's not like she yanked it away from me, forcibly. I suggested a spot, and then she countered with "Well actually there's this hot new restaurant I've been dying to try, why don't we go there?" And my logical, analytical brain is like "Well, OK, you can do what she wants, and play in her frame, and that's bad..." but then it's ALSO like "Well wait a sec, this chick is SMART, she's not trying to fuck you over, she's not trying to dominate you, she just wants to try a hot new restaurant, and what the hell man, you always go to the same places in your hood, why NOT get out of your comfort zone, get out of your usual hood, and try something new?"

So of I course I said "Yeah, sure, we you can hit your new hotspot, let's do Wed at 8."

And just like that, she had the frame.

THE DATE (FROM HELL)

So a few days later, and the big night's finally upon us. I show up on time (actually slightly early, as is my usual custom), the girl is late (which I'm cool with, up to a point--LA traffic is highly variable and we were in constant text contact throughout), I walk in and ask about a table, the hostess says "Oh, it'll be about 90 minutes, you can hang out and have a glass of wine while you wait if you like." I look around, notice there's literally nowhere to sit, turn back to the hostess, "You mean, STAND AROUND for 90 MINUTES, while waiting for a table to open up?" Her: "Yes sir, standing room only, until a seat opens up." Me: "That's funny, when we called earlier, asking about a reservation, you said none required, that we could just walk in and be seated." Her: "Yeah, we didn't expect such a last minute rush."

(So you can see, already, by surrendering control of the environment to the woman I also, in turn, surrendered control of a whole host of auxiliary variables as well, variables like seating, atmosphere, service, on and on, a whole multitude of factors that I would have had absolute control over if we'd done my place but, by opting for hers instead, it all went right out the window in a flash. And here's the thing, all those other environmental factors, they really are SO CRUCIAL on a first date. When the date goes well, it's often because the guy controlled the scene. When the date goes bad, it's often because the environment wasn't conducive to the flirting / courting process. Naturally though women never blame the venue, they blame YOU, it's "We didn't have any chemistry..." not "The coffee shop I made him meet me at was so fucking loud and I couldn't hear a thing he said..." Anyway...)

The girl finally shows up: and the 8.5 in her pics, now confronted in real life, suddenly snaps into 3D focus as, maybe, a soft 6 on her very best day, probably more like a hard 5 rolling out of bed. The pics: clearly 5 to 10 years out of date, and about 40 pounds away from where she was right then.

But still, STILL I clung on. Because you see, here's the thing:

Even though you might end up on a date with someone you aren't attracted to (at all), that doesn't mean you should kill the date right then and there. I've been out with plenty of women I wasn't into but then, through them, I met other women who then became fuck buddies, business contacts, etc etc. So just because you're not blown away by how gorgeous she is, I still say, no matter what your initial impression, at least give her a shot. I mean, you're already out anyway, you might as well give it 20 or 30 minutes. (Fear not though, dear reader, my very relevant title is about to come into play in just a minute here...)

So we go through the song and dance with the hostess, of course the girl is like "Yeah, we can stand around and have a glass of wine for 90 min, I'm cool with that..." Of course I think: NOOOOOOOO, no no no no noooooo, you just want to stand around and be seen in one of LA's new and trendy hotspots, I really don't give a shit about any of that, I just want to sit and chill for a moment, we need to get the fuck outta here and go somewhere else.

So with our names on the list I pull her back out of the restaurant, we walk a block or so to a nearby winebar which, by the look of it, is clearly the previous restaurant's waiting room. One table open, and we snag it.

Now keep in mind, up until now, there were a few yellow flags for sure, but no absolute "GET OUT! NOW!!!!" dealbreakers. I wasn't into the girl "in that way" (for sure), but we'd already had an awesome phone convo, thus maybe she'd turn out to be a cool chick who knew other cool chicks that I WOULD be into. Or maybe there'd be some business overlap (she was also a writer and producer). So, despite my initial uneasiness (at letting her pick the spot, I KNEW I shouldn't have surrendered control over the first date environment but like I said, I cut her slack because I rationalized it out as trying something new and besides, UNICORN), we soldiered on... I went up to the bar, grabbed us a round--glass of champagne for her, Diet Coke for me--

(Oh, and did I mention? I DON'T DRINK, I've been sober for almost 7 years, it's one of the best decisions I've ever made in my entire life, and it's something I'm very, very proud of, and continue to be proud of, each and every day--)

I get back to our table, pour my Diet Coke, and she says (in this suddenly unbelievably snotty, high-pitched, obnoxious voice): "How long have you been drinking those??" Me: "Oh I don't know, a while I guess." Her: "THOSE THINGS'LL KILL YOU, YOU KNOW." (As she drinks a sip of her champagne.) Me (laughing): "Yep, you're probably right..."

And then--

THE BIGGEST RED FLAG OF THEM ALL

Her: "So why don't you drink? What happened??"

And here we go.

Me, staring at her, thinking: Jesus fucking Christ, there really needs to be some kind of big ass public service announcement, given to everyone everywhere, that says the following: No one stops drinking forever CASUALLY. It is always, ALWAYS a very big fucking decision, and when one makes that decision, it is inevitably because either something very bad happened, or the person knew something very bad was about to happen, and so said person made the decision to get the fuck out while they still could, and that's all there is to it.

Asking someone "So, why don't you drink?" is rather like finding out that person was recently divorced, and hitting them with "Oh really? What happened?? Tell us about it. I'm sure it was all your fault, WHAT DID YOU DO WRONG??" Or better yet, finding out that someone recently had a battle with cancer, and won, and then you ask "Oh yeah? What did you do that brought that on?? Why didn't you just avoid it??"

I mean look, I get it, some people really just don't know any better. Some people are stupid. But really, for fuck's sake, there's being socially unaware, and then there's being full on abrasive, confrontational, and nasty. And given her tone, and the way she asked that question, she was clearly in the latter category.

ALL JUST A FEW MINUTES INTO OUR VERY FIRST DATE.

So I played it down (as I always do), and just said "Yeah, well, I quit drinking a while ago, almost 7 years. I had a great time with booze, back when I was living in New York, went out a lot, partied a lot, but eventually I wanted to get my life on track, and I knew I couldn't keep partying at the rate I was going and, at the same time, get all my life goals accomplished, so I gave up the booze, got healthy, and got serious about my career, my writing, all that good stuff."

I tried to change the topic at this point, but she pressed on--

Her: "So wait, you didn't have a PROBLEM then, did you? I mean, if it wasn't a PROBLEM for you, if you can show some RESTRAINT, then you should be able to drink all you want. Right? Like you should be able to go ahead and drink right now. I mean, if it wasn't ever a PROBLEM for you."

I shit you not, her exact words. (I know my sober readers are feeling all kinds of ill right now, surely...)

And that's when the alarm (in my head) went off--the full on blaring horn, flashing red light and all--screaming "GET OUT!! GET OUT NOW!!", because every time I've been out with a girl who, in response to my telling her I don't drink, replied with "Oh, you didn't have a PROBLEM, did you?? You weren't an ALCOHOLIC or anything, were you...??" it has never, ever gone well--the date has never recovered, after that. If the girl says that, the girl is stupid, plain and simple. I don't give a fuck how many minimalist composers she studied with, she's a social retard, she doesn't understand my world, she never has and never will.

And then--

I broke the biggest rule of them all, Rule #3: IF A GIRL DISRESPECTS YOU IN ANY WAY, IF SHE BREAKS ONE OF YOUR UNBREAKABLE RULES, IF SHE CROSSES THE LINE AND OVERSTEPS YOUR (HEALTHY) BOUNDARIES, GET UP AND WALK OUT THE DOOR. If you don't, you're committing the unpardonable sin of wasting your time, and ultimately, you're doing a disservice to you both.

Obviously, I should have just said, at that point, "You know what, I'm really not feeling this, it was nice meeting you, thanks for getting me out for a bit, but I'm gonna take off." And then just walked out. But for some reason, for some BIZARRE fucking reason, I stuck it out. I know, it's weird, I've been on hundreds (maybe thousands?) of dates in my life, I've slept with hundreds of women, it's not like I don't know what's up at this point, how the game works, what one should and shouldn't do in situations like this, and yet still, STILL, this girl that was SO FAR BENEATH ME, still, I stuck it out, thinking: well, I'm already out, we're already here, we're gonna check out the hot new restaurant, she doesn't really know what she's saying, it's not her fault, she just doesn't know any better...

(You see how I'm having to MAKE EXCUSES for her already, after just five minutes into our first date?? Not good, NOT GOOD...)

THE END (IN BRIEF)

So after managing a few more (tortuous) minutes on the defensive (defending one of the very things that I really am most proud of in my life), and realizing that I should have walked out but, somehow, choosing to stay anyway, I steered the conversation away from my not drinking to other things, we ended up getting our table nearby a little earlier than expected, we scraped through dinner somehow (by that time I was observing her the way a scientist might observe some kind of malevolent, wild creature brought in from the Cthulu universe, some kind of terrible demon that had slipped into our reality somehow), wondering all the while: what happened to the girl I spoke to on the phone? HOW CAN SHE BE THIS AWFUL IN PERSON?? Is it me? Am I not "leading" enough? Is there something I should be doing that I'm not doing? Who knew, maybe the date was already screwed after I let her pick the spot to begin with, perhaps I should have just dragged her to my spot and if she said No I should have just shrugged it off and let her go.

Regardless, we got through it, and here's where it really gets good:

On the way out, now standing on the sidewalk, she says "So where to now?" Translation: "Take me back to your place and fuck me." Shocking, I know, considering I would have rather spent the last hour slowly roasting in hell than dealing with this hyper-critical, socially stupid (slightly autistic?) woman, but yeah, women are funny like that...

Me: "Well I'm gonna catch an Uber here, go back to my place, do my thing..."

And that's when the light in her eyes goes out (the sting of rejection), and she opens up with her tirade: "I don't know how many dates you've been on, but where I come from, in my culture, we're not used to being treated like this. You didn't even look at me like half the time over dinner!! I just thought you should know, just in case you were planning on going on any other dates in the near future, since you CLEARLY don't how to treat a woman right. AT ALL."

Seriously, it was so out of left field, I just stood there for like a full 5 seconds in utter shock.

And that's when I turned to her, took a breath, and then proceeded to FUCKING RIP HER IN HALF. (Very uncharacteristic of me for sure--people who know me usually think of me as like the most chill guy in the world, I mean you REALLY have to dig deep to offend me, but man, that final monologue of hers, it definitely hit a nerve, and it absolutely deserved a reply.)

Me: "ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?? And what about your Diet Coke comment?? Do you really think that was appropriate 5 minutes into a first date? Do you know why I drink Diet Coke? BECAUSE I'M A FUCKING ALCOHOLIC YOU FUCKING CUNT. I'M A RECOVERING ALCOHOLIC WHO REGULARLY GOES TO AA MEETINGS, and yes I DID have a fucking problem with drinking years ago, but I solved that problem, it's something I'm extremely proud of, and continue to be proud of, EVERY SINGLE DAY, and FUCK YOU for making light of what I consider to be one of the great accomplishments of my life. AND FOR YOUR FUCKING INFORMATION, the next time someone tells you they don't drink, the ONLY proper response is 'Wow, that's awesome, I'm so happy for you!!' AND THAT'S IT. Otherwise, keep your stupid fucking mouth shut. Because seriously, sitting next to you listening to your retarded ramblings for the last hour, it was like chewing BROKEN GLASS."

She stared at me (along with a few other people standing just outside the restaurant, I think my tirade had gotten pretty loud by the end there), and then, the icing on the cake:

She started to cry.

Her: "I'm sorry, I didn't know..." A brief pause, and then: "I've had a rough life too, my dad died, I had to put myself through school..."

And that's when I just started laughing right out loud. It really was the craziest, weirdest, saddest, funniest fucking thing--this chick trying to steal back the frame (yet again) with her tears, I couldn't help it, I just laughed right in her face, which of course, only made her cry harder (I can't imagine what the onlookers were thinking)--

And then, at that most perfect moment, my Uber pulled up--

Me: "I'm sorry to hear that. It was nice meeting you." And I hopped in my car and drove away.

LESSONS LEARNED:

So yeah, that could have gone better.

There's a few lessons to take away here but really, we only need to talk about the big one, the umbrella lesson that covers all the rest:

Know, in advance, what your absolute non-negotiable DEALBREAKERS are, and then, if you see any of them come up on a first date, cut your losses and walk. IMMEDIATELY.

Of course it's a lot easier to say that than to actually do it. I know, I've been there. More than once. It's rather like doing comedy improv: when you're watching your friends do it, it's incredibly easy to pick apart the scene in real-time: oh he should be doing this, oh she should have said, he should have taken a longer pause there, they should have cut the scene HERE, etc etc... It's so easy to critique from the sidelines, but then, when you're up there on stage doing it, it's like, all you can think of is "Don't fuck up / keep it going / don't fuck up / keep it going / say something funny / say something funny..." In the heat of the moment, despite your best intentions, THE RULES ALL GO RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW.

And so yeah, by the same token, in the dating world, when you think you've got a unicorn on the hook, all the rules tend to get bent pretty quick as well. And like I said, everyone's unicorn is different. Maybe, for you, it's a bleached blonde who looks amazing in a thong bikini (why a lot of guys come out to LA, in fact). Maybe it's a chick who's super into outdoor sports (rock climbing or whatever). Maybe it's a chick who's into wine. Or video games. For me, here in LA, it's the smart, educated girl who's into the arts and is extremely well read. When I found her (or thought I found her), after a few YEARS of searching, yeah, I let a few of the rules slide. Thinking it was OK, in the beginning, to cut a few corners, that the most important thing was just to get out on the date ASAP and see if she was a cool chick. And then once I was out on the date, and she most definitely was NOT a cool chick, all I could think was: shit, how can I turn this around?? THIS CHICK IS THE UNICORN!! THERE MUST BE A WAY TO RECOVER.

But there isn't. The script that sucks on page 1 also sucks on page 10. And 50. And 100. And the date that sucks a few minutes in, it's just gonna get even worse after that.

As I said (and I really want to re-iterate this here): JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT ATTRACTED TO THE WOMAN, THAT'S NO REASON TO KILL THE DATE ON THE SPOT. Stick it out for 20 or 30 minutes, have a drink (or a Diet Coke, if you're sober like me). Maybe she's funny, maybe she has cool friends (that you can meet), who knows. But if a girl oversteps your boundaries and disrespects you, if she cuts into you in a confrontational, combative way, GET UP AND WALK OUT. Don't make a scene, be cool about it. BE NICE (think: Dalton in Roadhouse). Just politely tell her it isn't working, you're not feeling it, best of luck, and out you go.

Life's too short guys. A crucial part (the FIRST crucial part, in my book) of the Red Pill recovery process is the establishment of healthy boundaries. (Read NO MORE MR NICE GUY if you haven't already.) This is not to say you shouldn't expect a little shit testing, far from it--in fact, this is usually a sign she's into you. But there's a big difference between her (playfully) making fun of something about you (to test you, and see if you're swayed by her poking fun at you, to see how STRONG you are), vs her just actively, stupidly being a fucking cunt.

Know your boundaries, and don't let women overstep them. Know your rules, and don't let women break them.

When it comes to the first date playbook:

-- You set the time and the place, the place should be a venue / environment that you know extremely well and, ideally, within a few minutes walking distance of your home (for the effortless bounce, should things really be going your way)

-- Drinks only to start, never full on dinner (save the hot new restaurant for after you two have hooked up a few times)

-- Keep it short (unless it's EXTREMELY obvious that the girl's down to hook up, you'll know in the first few minutes if this is the case--if it is, then you can hang for a few hours and bounce her back to yours as you like)

-- Split the bill at the end, never pay for the whole thing (easily done if you set and hold the frame as "we're just two people getting together for a few casual drinks to see what's up")

It's going to be enormously tempting to bend or break these rules for women you think "ARE NOT LIKE THE REST", but let me assure you, the shortcut you think you're taking now is absolutely going to cost you dearly in the long run. Make sure your foundation is rock solid when you're starting out, so the building doesn't collapse later on once you're well into construction.

Oh, and I almost forgot: that hot new restaurant she'd never been to before and was dying to try? Turns out she'd been there FOUR TIMES BEFORE (the woman serving us recognized her as a regular). Chick was just trying to get yet another free dinner (out at the new hotspot) from online dating--I'm sure her brain must have blown a gasket when I forced her to split the bill (and thus her tirade outside, and my oh-so-eloquent reply).

You pick the venue gents. You run the show. You control the frame. Always.

Looking forward to hearing all your dating horror stories in the comments below. What's your "unicorn type"? How did you break the rules and surrender the frame when you thought you found her? Tell us all about it (bonus points if you can share some tales of woe from the sober dating scene)--


[–]hobo_teacher143 points144 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

Hey man I'm sober too for some years now, just wanna say you could really handle the 'why' question better. Own it but don't feel like you need to explain yourself like that. And yea I get it's a frustrating question but just own it. Some people (a minority) will treat you like a leper or something but most won't, just say it's not my thing and move on. If she prods laugh at her and ask her if she's writing a paper, I dunno.

Maybe something like

Her: Right? Like you should be able to go ahead and drink right now. I mean, if it wasn't ever a PROBLEM for you

You: Would it make you more comfortable if I drank?

Her (probably): I don't know, blablabla

You: Ha ha ha ha, are you trying to take advantage of me? Get me drunk? I see.

Her: bla bla bla

You: I'm not that easy, ha ha ahahahahasgfhsdgoherivfanwfidgabsji

you get the point. actually I really like this example because now you've turned it sexual

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 18 points19 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Yeah my system thus far has been to downplay it, slide around it... My experience has been that most women (not all, but most), when out on a first date, once they suspect that (gasp!) you might be an ALCOHOLIC, they wrap things up pretty quickly after that. If you frame it like "Nah, it wasn't a big deal, really, I just wanted to get in shape, get healthy" etc etc, usually you can dodge the bullet. Sometimes, though, no matter what you say, as soon as you say you don't drink, they just see "ALKIE" stamped on your forehead and that's it.

I think I may change up my strategy a little bit here though, since the dodging thing is wearing a little thin, I feel. It's fine for one-nighters but if you're looking for a somewhat more substantial connection (good luck in this dating climate but one can hope, I suppose), assuming it comes up, I may just come in with "Yep, recovering alcoholic, it's great, life is better now, happy to answer any questions, otherwise moving on..." I don't know. Will have to experiment and see.

[–]Phoenixtorment20 points21 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

So you were afraid of being rejected by a girl you were not interested in if you revealed you are an ex-alchoholic.

[–]Kwantuum7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

getting poon vs not getting poon.

Being outcome independent doesn't mean you shouldn't keep your objective in mind, it means you shouldn't let it get to you when things don't go your way. Straight up admitting to being an ex-alcoholic WILL hamper your chances, it is a bad strategy.

[–]Phoenixtorment0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You didn't read my post properly. He had no interest in that girl, therefore there was no such thing as getting poon or not.

[–]CanTakeABullet1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I get it, not drinking is sometimes a red-flag for some people, although it shouldn't be in any way, shape, or form. I think some people question a person's reasons for not drinking to eliminate some things: is it a religious decision, is it an allergy issue, health choice, anger management decision, cultural thing (punk straight-edge), or a result of abusing the substance. Regardless of one's reasoning, it is an awesome feat to overcome the social pressures to not partake. Framing is everything and while I don't drink and get questioned about it often and deeply: I say with confidence, it just doesn't suit me. Although no one is okay with that answer, I go in to details, if I care enough, and everyone is okay with my laundry list of reasons: alcoholism runs in my family, too many friends have been roofied, I prefer to be in control of myself at all times, religious influences, and I like the way I am and I'm not afraid of anyone's judgement. Owning your truth and being truly proud of your decisions and happily sharing those truths is a liberating frame of mind. That chick did not deserve your truth, she would've walked all over it, regardless of what you said, but being proud and confident about your life and your decisions would not have led to so much defensiveness...truly own your sobriety by not giving two fucks about what any one, including a potential lay, thinks about it. It's your life and you're killing it, no need to make excuses or "dodge" that truth!

[–]KCMOVIEBUFF3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I get it, not drinking is sometimes a red-flag for some people, although it shouldn't be in any way, shape, or form.

It shouldn't be??? No offense to the original poster, and I myself have given up alcohol on my own successfully, but do you have any idea of the recidivism rate among alcoholics who attend AA or similar program meetings? Of COURSE someone telling you they used to be an alcoholic can be a massive red flag, since they often revert to past ways even though they don't want to. That can be a time bomb that explodes after you get married, btw, as stress and circumstances can change and influence the ex-drinker to start again (fights with spouse over money, sex, career, living conditions, friends, family, etc).

Would I personally continue dating a woman who told me she was an ex-alcoholic? HELL NO, I've done it once before, never again - it turned out not only was she a black-out drinker but she go into cocaine and crack as well, and later slept with a LOT of people. It took only 2 weeks before I got a glimpse into her past life and I wanted nothing to do with her again - and the fact that she didn't seem that strong a person influenced me too.

http://www.alternet.org/books/pseudoscience-aa-and-rehab

Peer-reviewed studies peg the success rate of AA somewhere between 5 and 10 percent. That is, about one of every fifteen people who enter these programs is able to become and stay sober. In 2006, one of the most prestigious scientific research organizations in the world, the Cochrane Collaboration, conducted a review of the many studies conducted between 1966 and 2005 and reached a stunning conclusion: “No experimental studies unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of AA” in treating alcoholism. This group reached the same conclusion about professional AA-oriented treatment (12-step facilitation therapy, or TSF), which is the core of virtually every alcoholism-rehabilitation program in the country.

[–]thedaynos2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

i agree with you here big time. i know quite a few recovered alcoholics and most of them are complete wild cards/unstable. many have a shit ton of debt, and 100% of them have strange habits.

if i were you i'd simply just keep that part simple and either lie about it. tell people you don't drink because you're allergic or some shit like that, or that you just don't like the way it makes you feel. or you had an alcoholic brother (like donald trump) or some story like that. i really would not go into that stuff with anyone new. to people who have experiences with alcoholics, it will be a red flag and a turnoff.

[–]CanTakeABullet1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Okay, I hear what you're saying and your experience with that woman in AA is certainly unfortunate. However, what about the individuals that do not attend AA and have wild success with avoiding the reintroduction of alcohol into their lives? It's like many manageable mental illnesses/diseases, knowing your triggers, staying on top of your health, seeking medical professionals when necessary, and having a strong support network when shit gets crazy. Relapse may be inevitable, but the same goes for individuals with depression, eating disorders, hoarders, smokers, drug-addicts, addicted gamers, porn-addicts, and the million of other addictions/illnesses/diseases that can inhabit the human mind. Do we just write-off any one that has an "issue"? You can choose who you "write-off" as a potential partner, because that's your choice and it's your life, but just realize that whatever "issue" you struggle with can result in you being written-off by the next woman you desire. Cheers!

[–]hobo_teacher6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well we have different experiences and maybe there is something to what you're saying but I would suggest it has everything to do with how you frame it.

If you come across as explaining why, as giving your sob story and how important it is for you to continue being sober, and otherwise using 'recovery language' that she isn't familiar with, then yea you might get stamped as 'ALKIE' in the negative sense.

But to quote Swingers, you're so money and you don't even know it. You are a man that has taken control of his life and its direction. You are a man who shunned peer pressure to do something that was not in your best interest. And you're a man that doesn't feel the need to explain his decision to anyone. You're a man that takes her to an art gallery (kino galore) instead of "drinks." You're an interesting man, or at least you're a different man. That's akin to something from Models, about being someone who people have to take a side for or against.

That type of thinking can give you confidence to honestly laugh at her, and tease her.

[–]RP_Teacher4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah biggest takeaway from this for me is...

You need to OWN your past for yourself. Not for some random girl. Not for some unicorn that doesn't exist.

Yourself.

The guy that sexualized it above was just about perfect for agree and amplify.

[–]FailingBillionaire1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't say that you "don't drink" because you're an alcoholic. Just give the real reason, which is that you made the experience, that it interferes with your daily productivity, because you don't drink regularly.

Not an alcoholic, but I don't drink myself, for the same reason. Most of the time I get an alcohol-free beer.

[–]reigorius0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hm, you could dodge it by saying your not feeling to drink this night or you have a rack ball competition tomorrow or for whatever you need a competitive edge.

[–]ElBeaver0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hey man, don't be so harsh on people asking you things like that. People use to ask me why I don't smoke or why I'm not a drinking party animal. I may have lived your opposite since I've never been drunk (36 yr old), so I don't know what you've been through. Yet, people use to ask those kind of things out of curiosity. Don't take it personally.

[–]otra_gringa-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah my system thus far has been to downplay it, slide around it...

So, deceiving them is what it takes for you?

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I never say anything that isn't true. But obviously, as all recovering alcoholics know, opening your first date with "Hey, I'm a recovering ALCOHOLIC!!" is not exactly putting your best foot forward.

Which is funny, because all the recovering alcoholics I know have done more spiritual work, on themselves and with others, in the past week than most "normies" have done in the past year, if not their entire lives. So really, you'd think the "I'm a recovering alcoholic" opener would, in many ways, be an amazing bonus, not a drawback (when it comes to selecting a mate).

Unfortunately, much of society doesn't see it this way, they don't understand alcoholism, the recovery process, how it all works. They just hear that word and think "Addict, loser, no self-control, no willpower, LOSER LOSER LOSER..." When in fact, again, the irony is that getting into recovery actually gets you onto the path of winning.

I usually just say "I'm not drinking right now, but please, if you like, feel free to indulge yourself..." After I've gotten to know the girl better (if she sticks around for a few dates) I may talk more about my past and my recovery process, but really that's best saved for the few women that have demonstrated they're worth my time and energy, and clearly really do want to get to know me better. Otherwise, you're best off keeping it light, easy, and fun on the first outing.

[–]petronas3600 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I call op to be bs, just pretentious person. Insecure and juvenile. 100/1000? Dates and someone getting pissed at something​ that should not bother, bs totally BP.

[–]officerkondo535 points536 points  (59 children) | Copy Link

tl;dr version: OP has outburst in public

[–]TheBigO420 points points [recovered] | Copy Link

I enjoyed the part where he reminded everyone he's banged 100s of women and been on thousands of dates.

[–]PM_Your_8008s15 points16 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Don't forget all the "we in hollywood" shit that he tried to pass too

[–]MonsterinNL19860 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Which literally is almost impossible even for a 10 out 10 guy, out of Milan's models or Hollywood actors.

[–]ZodiacK9174 points175 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Thank you because I sure as hell wasn't going to read a fucking 3 page paper lmfao

[–]2awalt_cupcake60 points61 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It starts to get interesting in Act II

[–]LionelLempl94 points95 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

The post has more than 5000 words lol. He wrote half of a fucking undergraduate paper about his date. My sides are in orbit

[–]Lo-G61 points62 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The very definition of taking it all way, waaay too seriously. It's good to improve yourself and learn as much as you can from a failed date. But this is some dear diary level shit.

[–]alefmale30 points31 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I can't wait to show the boys my 20,000 word post about how much IDGAF

[–]wanderer77910 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I actually got all the way to lessons learned before skipping down here. You know you fucked up when the audience only hears your side and you still come off like a spaz.

The funny part is by not talking this dude actually performed alright despite having an emotional breakdown internally. He was probably just a few steps from fucking her and instead chose to go on a tirade. Whether he wanted to fuck her or not, there was just no call for that.

[–]PoorlyTimedPun21 points22 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I too got that far. I feel about the same as OP. I want my 30 minutes back but I'm willing to waste 5 more to help tell OP he may be the slightly autistic one. You got your frame shattered so hard by a person asking why you don't drink. You took her to a trendy drinking dinner spot and a wine bar fuck tard. She orders alcohol and you come back with a can of diet coke and pour your own beverage? Make a joke about a whiskey coke hold the fucking wiskey, look misty eyed into the corner and say I haven't drank since nam. Or any number of other funny ways to laugh off a too serious question with a new person. Seriously though you might be autistic. The way you've broken down and analyzed and crafted a thesis about a social interaction that according to your own bullshit you should have encountered a thousand times. First paragraph "most FR are play by plays of self fellatio.. blah blah" the rest well I'll have you know I've been on hundreds maybe thousands, of lengthy written profiles, what with my close rate being so high I can control the service and seating at a restaurant that is located close to My house." Jesus fuck.

[–]Thaweed0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

He is a writer, he has fun doint it, why do you care??

[–]doitforthestory83 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

We all scrolled to comments first once we saw the length

[–][deleted] 62 points63 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

she shit tested. he failed.

why don't you drink?

oh, i drink alright. none of this weak alcoholic shit though. you ever try fermented tiger's blood in cambodia? that'll put some hair on your chest.

[–]wheresMYsteakAt39 points40 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I would have gone with "I had to take the beer goggles off, too many fake pictures tricking me into banging hags"

[–]V1SoR16 points17 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

That wasn't a shit test. That was a poorly timed question.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

but treating it as a shit test probably would've helped

[–]1AfterC5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Dont say this either, OP.

"Just not into it anymore"

[–]SmoothBeliever points points [recovered] | Copy Link

is that really the TLDR? jus that op is a stupid faggot?

[–][deleted] 143 points144 points  (28 children) | Copy Link

TL; DR Op is a recovering alcoholic that went out with a below average IQ plain looking girl who kept asking why he's drinking diet coke instead of booze.

At the end of the date she tells him he's bad at dating and doesn't know how to treat women, after which op has a public outburst about the unsolicited alcohol questions which makes her cry.

He then takes the uber home leaving her sobbing.

Sounds like a fun night imo, some advice for OP:

Read that one book about the good life, the art of stoic joy. You need some amused mastery in life.

No matter your history with alcohol, you should be able to take words like that without them reaching you this deep...

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro35 points36 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

Staying away from drinking people is recommended when you recover. Op broke that rule, no wonder he had an outburst - a nice start of a relapse.

[–]Senior Contributorexit_sandman12 points13 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

That wasn't the problem, the problem was that the girl started to tease him about his decision not to drink.

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro32 points33 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

See my other comments. Addicts want to cumulate some negative feelings, they want to throw a tantrum, then they can finally fix themselves with a dose of a drug of choice.

Plus, the bitch was shit-testing him, but since when shit-tests are the problem? That's an IOI...

[–]alefmale2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Addicts want to cumulate some negative feelings, they want to throw a tantrum, then they can finally fix themselves with a dose of a drug of choice.

Good to have you around exaddictbro, well said.

[–]SiulaGrande2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

im pretty sure sandman was being sarcastic. mocking OP for being a crybaby

[–]Unholy_VI5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

OK in my experience women 100% shit test about alcohol.

If I get my normal drink which is a diet coke or diet MD if they happen to have it I always get accused of being a recovering Alcoholic. This used to stump me and get me into denying it then being further grilled about why I'm not drinking. Now I just expect that reaction and shrug and say something like 'might have one later.' and move on from it it.

The other amusing thing is that nearly 100% if the girl isn't holding a drink herself and I order a beer I'll get some sort of statement about how the girl 'quit drinking' designed to make it uncomfortable and get me backpedaling for her entertainment. Used to fall into that every time as well. Now I just ignore the comment. Seems to be the best option.

[–]Senior Contributorexit_sandman3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Wow, women in the States must be real bitches.

I can't recall that my choice of beverage has ever been an issue during a date - at best when I was picking a rather unusual cocktail from the menu, but that was less about the alcohol.

[–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow, women in the States must be real bitches.

It's a clear sign she is self-conscious about her consumption. I see this a lot. I tend not to drink around women if there is a reasonable change I'm going to plant my flag in one of their asses; sex is an athletic sport for me, so I stay game ready (yeah, ok, slightly autistic, but fuck off). A few times I had to be explicit about this because they wouldn't stop on me about it. That usually put and end to it.

[–]Unholy_VI0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It never used to be when I was dating like 20 years ago.

Now that I'm out there again it's pretty much constant. Maybe I just look like an alcoholic.

[–]yomo863 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Besides the outburst, I am with you. Women generally have fine antennas about social issues. It would just be polite not to be so intrusive. Given he failed the shit test but it is still bordering on evil besides religion what other reasons can a man possible have for not drinking a tiny beer out of social conventions.

[–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, women never do that sort of thing. Clearly she's a cunt.

[–]ass_boy-1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

It's you again mr. Superior addict man. Give the guy a fucking break you of all people should understand how hard quitting can be we should be here to help each other not make sly remarks. And by that I mean addicts.

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro14 points15 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Oh yes sorry for not wallowing in victim mentality with the rest of you. Next time I'll play a defenseless child like all of you just fucking love to. I promise.

[–]ass_boy-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

You probably never had an addiction if that's how you think this works lol.

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Victim mentality is an integral part of addictive mentality, which in turn is a sign of an underdeveloped mind.

[–]ass_boy0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I dont disagree with you. A huge part of the 12 steps is learning how to take responsibility but the two times I've had contact with you you told me how id end up in jail and how this guy is about to start a relapse. I'm sure you're not a bad guy but you say some cruel shit that really doesn't help anyone. I don't really see how calling you out on that makes me a victim but I'm sure you have more clean time and time in trp then me so feel free to enlighten me if I'm wrong.

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ah, you're the dude that assaulted an officer without any particular reason. I think I should be done with this thread already. EOT.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No gendered language rule: We shouldn't be able to tell if you have a vagina by your language

[–]HappyMexican0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I love getting drunk with girls. Best thing ever!

[–]Kommanderdude0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Now op should go get a drink.

[–]wheresMYsteakAt-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'll drink to that. 2 Makers neat, none of that double shit....I got trust issues. Matter of fact open the bottle in front of me, you guys are watering down these weak ass drinks.

[–]TruthInArt0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Would you recommend reading the art of stoic joy after or before Meditations?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Stoic joy first imo, but that's just my view because I tried reading meditations a few years ago when I wasn't that used to reading english books yet (not my native language).

It doesn't really matter that much because books like these deserve second, third, fourth readings, etc.

Same for epictetus' enchiridion. (No time to check the correct spelling on this one)

The alabaster girl also comes to mind in this scenario. Op could learn a bit about enjoying what is, flaws and all. He could have just agreed and amplified, made up a ridiculous story about his relationship with alcohol to brighten the mood, but instead chose to show true vulnerability (which is "brave" but unattractive) and killed the mood.

Having lost friends to alcohol and suicide, any time someone jokes about these issues I just laugh along, aknowledge my feelings but don't act on em and keep the mood light.

Don't be a buzzkill op, life is tough and painful but you voluntarily chose to let the dark times win when you reacted like you did.

[–]RavelsBolero0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Basically what this guy above said. OP sounds like a faggot who over-reacted and threw a wobbly in public.

[–]-Universe-0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

the art of stoic joy

Thanks for the book recommendation.

[–]SmoothBeliever points points [recovered] | Copy Link

well, he is bad at dating and doesnt know how to treat a women lol. they dont want seriousness. they want fun

[–]TheMinistryOfAwesome9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I feel that with the capitalisation of the words PROBLEM RESTRAINT and all that jazz that the problem, in fact, was entirely within the OP's own mind.

Not-drinking is an unusual enough thing for somebody to be interested in hearing about, in general. The emphasis probably highlights the typical RP mentality of "any girl is basically a cunt"

[–]alefmale2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I thought the same thing about the capitalization. Well said.

[–]Kommanderdude9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks. I assumed after reading the first sentence that the tl;dr version would be that op is a retard, snowflake or a cry baby bitch. Sounds like my suspicions are confirmed. Thanks.

And who the fuck cares about deal breakers on a first fucking date. Objective 1 is to fuck her then plate her if you like the sex. After that keep her as a plate and look for true deal breakers if you want an ltr at some point in your life.

[–]nfap4Life25 points26 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

As a recovering addict/alcoholic myself, whenever meeting someone and they ask why I don't drink the answer is always the same. "I'm allergic to alcohol." Its the truth and 99/100 people will just shrug it off or say "that sucks" or just change the subject.

Regular people will never understand that people in recovery cannot just have 1 drink without destroying their life. Everyone knows what an allergy is.

[–]beam_me_up2017 points points [recovered] | Copy Link

Stealing this - as someone four months sober, I have needed an answer that ends that whole line of questioning.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I know quite a few people that have taken the "allergic to alcohol" route too. I've considered that, but never quite felt comfortable with it, like I wasn't being entirely honest in some way.

The real problem is that the whole "alcoholic" thing isn't in the public discourse in the way that it should be--if "normies" (as we call regular drinkers) understood exactly how the whole "alcoholism" thing works, there'd be a lot less miscommunication, less ACCUSATIONS, and just a lot less hassle overall. As it is now, when most people hear "alcoholic" they immediately flash to "Oh, so you LACK WILLPOWER, is that it? You can't CONTROL yourself, right...??" And to be fair it's not really their fault, we as a society haven't done much to correct their misperception. Not by a longshot.

Truth is I usually don't mind the misunderstanding, I brush it off, laugh, whatever. I think in this particular instance it just the first time, in all these years, that I felt like I was actually being attacked for being sober. It was totally new and unexpected, and just a very, very weird (and bad) feeling.

But what can you do, you take whatever lesson you can from the experience and move on.

[–]Kwantuum7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Just fucking lie. It doesn't matter. Use "liver problems" if you don't want to go into details, "I just get really sick for a few days if I have even just one drink".

like I wasn't being entirely honest in some way.

The only person you HAVE to be honest with is yourself. Show others what they want to see.

[–]alefmale7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

being entirely honest

Right, because Rule #1 of TRP is: "Always be entirely honest with women."

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Funny every time I've said that I get even more questions lmao

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

We all have some horror date stories. I remember one horrible date which lasted about 10 minutes. I even bought this crazy bitch a drink so next thing you know she is telling me I sound like her ex and not to ask her questions like "do you live around here" or "what do you do?". She gets aggressive, I actually reached over and grabbed the gin and tonic that I had bought her and said, "This date is over right now, please leave and I am going to drink this and my drink alone, bye". She left and I drank two drinks.

[–]no_face183 points184 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

What can I tell you bro? You are weak.

Change of Venue Its not about walking into her frame. There is no "I win frame" points here. The reason you want control of the venue is that its your responsibility to plan and execute the date. Women don't go to dates with planning and execution in mind. They go for adventure. This is exactly why she said "there's a restaurant I want to try". She wants to eat at a new restaurant and hopefully at your cost.

The right way to handle this is to say: "Its best to go with a well-known place on a first date." I would be OK if its a place the woman knows well

Q: "So why don't you drink? What happened??"

A: "Its not my thing"

OR

A: "Interferes with my strength training"

OR

A: "I'm afraid you'll take advantage of me"

OR

.... hundreds of others.

You basically got triggered and emotionally disturbed by this question. You lost frame

But hey, we all have shitty dates. Don't worry. You will be better next time.

However, your writing is atrocious. God that was hard to read. What's your genre?

've been on hundreds (maybe thousands?) of dates in my life, I've slept with hundreds of women

Oh, I see, its fiction.

[–]Senior Contributorexit_sandman41 points42 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Q: "So why don't you drink? What happened??"

A: "Its not my thing"

OR

A: "Interferes with my strength training"

OR

A: "I'm afraid you'll take advantage of me"

OR

.... hundreds of others.

You basically got triggered and emotionally disturbed by this question. You lost frame

This one caught my attention as well.

This girl (who probably just wanted to get tipsy together) asked him his personal kryptonite-question, which would have been pretty harmless for most people, and threw him off balance with it.

However, your writing is atrocious.

That's a matter of taste, I considered it reasonably easy to read.

[–]HappyMexican0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I made my way through most of it. Writing wasn't bad. OP just needs to remember that more concise, less filler writing is generally better.

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"I already drunk my ration. And probably someone else's too"

[–]bangermin4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Change of Venue Its not about walking into her frame. There is no "I win frame" points here. The reason you want control of the venue is that its your responsibility to plan and execute the date. Women don't go to dates with planning and execution in mind. They go for adventure. This is exactly why she said "there's a restaurant I want to try". She wants to eat at a new restaurant and hopefully at your cost.

The right way to handle this is to say: "Its best to go with a well-known place on a first date." I would be OK if its a place the woman knows well

I was wondering about exactly that, thanks for the input! Also very nice shit test responses. All in all a really valuable comment, no need to bash OP's writing style though, mate.

[–]Endorsed ContributorThotwrecker18 points19 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm glad you learned something here but you're problem goes a lot deeper than what you're identifying. Try to treat the root, not the leaves - the problem is not that this one chick was a little cunty, most of them are. Any 8.5+ in LA (or any 6 who can front on instagram like they are an 8.5) is 90% going to be a little cunty.

The problem is that you're sensitive. You care what she thinks about you. Even deeper, it's that you haven't stopped having "sore spots".

Lot of reformed beta -> almost alphas have sore spots. Maybe they were cheated on they are super sensitive about cheating and know that if they act insecure it won't help them, but it outs itself in many beta tells. Maybe they are sore about the idea of women being able to use men later in life for provisions while they fuck themselves drunk on cock when they are in their prime - and this leads to them not fucking a hot 28 year old that they do want to fuck, simply because "she was probably just trying to be my girlfriend." SO what, they all are, you fuck by dangling your tesla and lifestyle in front of them and plate / next accordingly.

You're sensitive about how girls are and about the stupid shit they say, probably because you want them to react positively to you so it really ruffles your feathers when they don't.

She's not trying to pummel you into submission when she prods and pokes, she's just trying to see what you're made of. She wants to know that you don't take her too seriously - I mean for god's sakes, she's a tinderella trying to have fun and post snaps from the hot place in town, she's mattress trash, she's a doorknob everyone's had a turn, who gives a shit what she thinks about your drinking?

Who gives a shit about whether she's rude or polite, you amuse yourself for 4 more hours and if she's not DTF you're only out like 20 bucks or so - because you didn't take her to a fancy place to begin with. I'm an indian you think girls don't say ridiculously racist shit all the time? It's nonstop, I had a tinder girl tell me she was surprised that I was indian and if she could tell from my pic she probably wouldn't have met me - straight up dropped that to my face like 10 minutes in. Later on she splits the bill and puts out.

Women want to know that your skin is thick. Obviously in a LTR the rules are different. Obviously if she's late or she's blatantly trolling for a free dinner, leave her on her ass. But she shouldn't have the power to make you lose your cool.

Respect for admitting the non lay FR, and you're right it's more useful to post this instead of some dude's bad RP fanfiction. So kudos for that, just try to look a bit deeper and analyze what is making you behave the way you did. That is the problem, not the girl and not even your emotional behavior.

[–]Jakei3481 points82 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

100 for keeping it real.

TLDR: OP lost frame, broke two of his personal rules...and lost his cool.

[–]UnKnownSurviving5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

He just need to practice, that's all. Every guy needs to get out, and apply his own rules. There will be mistakes, some inconsistency, here and there, but he will get it right, eventually, through enough experience.

[–]p3n1x10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Practice?

OP claims thousands of dates and 100s of sexy times.

OP needs a new owner & coaching staff.

[–]Freedom_fam7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like drunken NYC shenanigans.

Sober is hard mode.

[–]Dustin_Bromain26 points27 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Dude, you're freaking out. Try to relax, meditate a bit.

[–]Mangoinhand points points [recovered] | Copy Link

Great story, I have been there when a woman tries the Venue Change.

Ive also been there of having a phone conversation before meeting (where chemistry was great and talking for hours).

What I learned is, as you say:

NEVER accept Venue Change. It's either where I suggest or do date.

NEVER talk on the phone before date. That's for proven people worthy of your time.

And NEVER have dinner with a women. At best a drink or tea at some nice place. End it at the 1 hour mark.

Once I feel it is not going well, I end it and pay for my half of bill and leave. Ive got better shit to do.

[–]aigamithite91 points92 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

I don't know why everyone is bashing you below. Guess everyone here is a superhuman and their frame is made out of granite. These things happen and it's good that you analysed what went on both in your head and on the date. This is a lesson, not a failure.

Good job on being sober for so long. Your post is long, but you have some nice tips in there, which you have kindly bolded out. Better luck next time.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 68 points69 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Oh I don't mind the critiques--anyone here who comments on my loss of frame is absolutely correct, that WAS the whole point of the post.

I wanted a field report that told it like it was, warts and all. Too many of the FRs around here have just been these Superman-like tales of "Let me regale you all with how I read the sidebar once, lifted some weights, and a week later effortlessly slayed this HB10 model I met out at a club this one night..." I never learn anything from those, they're all the same. It's just TRP theory regurgitated in (bad) story format (assuming the tales are even true, often I suspect they probably aren't).

I actually kind of want more horror stories on here. I learn a lot more from other people's mistakes than their victories.

[–]beginner_16 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agree with this. Most Field reports read like desperate attempts to get validation. Yours is a nice, realistic deviation from that.

But I also understand the critics. The alcohol issue clearly is your weak spot. Lighten up. 0 reason to explain yourself or even tell the truth. Anything from "Don't like the taste" to a witty 1-liner reply and it should be fine. If she then persists, you can still bail. A short reply implies: Stop asking, non of your business.

I however also do understand why she asks. Women have red flags and so do men. And an ex-alcoholic is a red flag.

[–]fischbrot19 points20 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

1st congrats on 7 years! 2nd thanks for the field report! I enjoyed it AND learnt something!!! 3rd also thanks for showing me how to ignore the haters in this thread 4th please MORE of failed dates, because I actually helps!!!

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks man, not quite to 7 years yet but almost. Glad you liked the FR and got something out of it, I too always feel like I learn a lot more from other people's failures than their victories (though obviously both can be useful).

I actually hope we get a few more "Here's how I totally fucked up" FRs posted here on occasion--if nothing else they definitely ground you in a way that the the more flamboyant "I smashed an HB10 last night" FRs do not.

[–]NietzscheExplosion4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It was a Good FR. This sub is full of teenagers now and low value to older men.

[–]itwasonlythewind points points [recovered] | Copy Link

Your story taught me a few things. Most FR reports these days don't and like you said, are given from a perspective where they make themselves sound perfect. I get nothing from brag posts. There's nothing weak about honesty in a closed forum for learning. Everyone learns through mistakes, perfection is delusional.

There's a good chance she has a drinking problem herself and that's why she pushed the topic so much. May be subconscious, could be active denial. I've only experienced something like this with people who, above all else, looked forward to get wasted with someone and suddenly not being able to sets them off. They get angry and confused, and not knowing why, they deflect it on you. Regular drinkers would move off this topic pretty quickly because drinking is a take it or leave it thing and not something they dwell on in thought, so why would they in conversation? We've all met the drunk guy who will ask you if you want a drink 5 times in an hour, even if you've got a cup in hand. It's a mental preoccupation for them, aka addiction. May not be the case every time of course. Once you realize this, it's a lot easier to keep your frame. It's their self consciousness that's being attacked, and they may not even know it. I'm not up to a thousand dates, but I have been to a thousand aa meetings. Watch out for other alcoholics, you'll gravitate towards them naturally and act illogical despite your best interests. Similar thought processes. You hopped on this one's crazy train and started yelling in public before you knew it. She had you acting impulsive like her, which in RP is losing frame.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is actually a VERY good point, and one that a sober friend of mine brought up right after I called him to talk about the date soon after it happened. He was like "Well look, by not drinking at the outset, you obviously triggered something in HER. Like maybe she was terrified that she wasn't attractive enough to you, that she wouldn't get laid unless she got you drunk first, so when you refused to drink, she lashed into you with 'Why aren't you DRINKING??!!'" etc. As soon as he said that I was like "Yep, that's probably it."

But something else to consider: she may have been used to going on dates all the time, getting buzzed or wasted, hooking up with random guys, and maybe, occasionally, wondering "Do I have a drinking problem? Should I stop drinking??" And then she meets someone (me) who, in answer to her question, gives her the whole "Yeah, I was partying a bit too much, I had to stop" monolog, she's thinking "Holy shit, I've had the EXACT SAME thought, maybe I really should stop..."--and of course that thought terrifies her, and the mood was killed right at the outset.

So yeah, two damaged people triggering each other back and forth for more than an hour--sounds like good times to me!

[–]TruthInArt2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the write up. You could learn to be more succinct. It's a sign of respect, not everything you wrote was absolutely necessary. Either way, welcome to the family!

[–]UselessKungFuX1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hey man, fuck the haters. They're just chest-puffing and seeking validation.

Great story, good lessons learned.

[–]reigorius1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I appreciate it. Pointing out the obvious flaw in derogative fashion by the armchair redpillers takes away the honest tale about a personal fail and what to learn from it. Thanks for the read OP.

[–]p3n1x-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You spent more time defending/defining your knowledge (justifying yourself and assuming your long version would be amusing to all) than you did explaining what happened and how you dealt with it prior/post.

This really does come off like a paid magazine article than an FR. Especially with that "lets hear your horror stories" weak closing.

I wanted a field report that told it like it was, warts and all. Too many of the FRs around here have just been these Superman-like tales of "Let me regale you all with how I read the sidebar once, lifted some weights, and a week later effortlessly slayed this HB10 model I met out at a club this one night..." I never learn anything from those, they're all the same.

...and yet, in the same breath you ask for everyone to give their version. WTF? Are you going to complain when the replies don't meet YOUR standards?

Oh I don't mind the critiques

Bullshit. Your post is all about how much you "mind" the critiques.

[–]reecewagner19 points20 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think people are ripping him because he made an ass of himself in public and is here to brag about it. None of this incredibly long-winded and self-indulgent story at all represents an understanding of frame control.

[–]aigamithite0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

He sounds more apologetic and trying to correct this mistake in the future. At least that's what I got from the post and I could very well be wrong.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Some of these guys are simply negative, and want to bitch. I've made two FRs. One was about banging the thin little hotty who was 22 back when I was 44. Another is where I did most everything right but still fucked it up, which got ignored. I could write lots of them about girls eye fucking me in public, and they're all between 18 and 30, but I don't. I'm not pursuing pussy very much lately, I get enough as it is. I'll mention some of my experiences but usually I mix them together due to overlap.

Well the one about the girl half my age was exactly how it transpired, ended up fucking her for a couple months until I got bored. Got lots of "yeah, that happened" and someone even made threads about it in other subs. I found it all amusing since it was fun, it wasn't the first not the last time, but these blue spergs can't even imagine it. They still think you need to have lots of money to pull tail, especially when you're old like me. That tells me they don't get laid, they have no game, and rather than improving themselves, they try to rip down others so they don't feel so bad.

In essence, they're acing and thinking like girls, and that is the exact reason they aren't getting laid. Op ripped into her when he could've just left her there, and he was right that he should have hoped the fuck out of there when he saw her fat ass. However, she might be socially more aware now, and I tend to leave to leave girls better than I found them as far as education. I'm not some Zen type who thinks you should never get mad, fuck that, anger has a reason for being, and I use it when it is useful. Putting some snooty cunt in her place can be very enjoyable. Then again, I'm a sadistic sociopath and I like fucking with people.

[–]aigamithite0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have seen the 44-22 dynamic with my own eyes. Yesterday as a matter of fact.

OP wrote his FR, identified his mistakes and vowed to fix them. Similarly, you got downvoted in your 2 FRs like he did, although you seem to have had a more nonchalant attitude about it. In any case there is something to be learned.

Then again, I'm a sadistic sociopath and I like fucking with people.

That's not very nice

[–]catacamas0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Two ways to look at it, one, he 'lost frame', or two, he stood up for himself against a rude manipulative dishonest girl who was trying to score free dinner and drinks etc. Maybe he lost frame but at least he didn't let her walk over him, and she probably respected him more after his outburst than before.

I disagree with commenter who says he 'made an ass of himself in public'. On the contrary, he stood up for himself and said the right thing without cowardly fear of what everyone around him might think.

[–]damnsonny69 points points [recovered] | Copy Link

Couldn't read this shit. Too many damn ()(()()()(() and really you shouldn't have been afraid to walk away the second she was too ugly to fuck.

[–]like_em_thick points points [recovered] | Copy Link

You're right... but I was in a biz trip recently. My tinder date turned out to be about like a 4 I won't make any excuses for my behaviour but she did end up in my hotel room and my god could she fuck. So there's those...

[–]6foot4whitemale21 points22 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's always the dragon's that know how to ride

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fucken brilliant I'm stealing this one

[–]beam_me_up2017 points points [recovered] | Copy Link

I met a guy who was RP long before there was an internet, and he said "pussy has no face." He got laid constantly because he had no problem taking one for the team, and he had no problem telling people either. Sometimes he got hot girls, sometimes he didn't, but he always got laid.

[–]Psychocist1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't understand. Is dropping your standards just to get laid something to be proud of now? If you're that thirsty you have to fuck uggos then you have a serious problem. I'd focus on fixing that -- being less thirsty and raising my standards.

[–]1constructiveasshole22 points23 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This. I'm a dark triad shitlord so when she shows up and doesn't look like her pics I pull them up on Tinder and ask her "Is this pic of you?" and when she acts fake confused and says yes I just chuckle and say "Be right back" and leave. I've even stuck a couple of them with the bill for our first round.

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't date online but your comment made me want to date online just to pull this kind of shit off. Thanks for inspiration.

[–]MRPFuckMe177 points78 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Turgid, banal, self-congratulatory drivel, full of useless asides. Your headline said it all; the rest was just masturbation. Then this monologue detailing your outburst. Mentioning atonal composers on TRP. Ayyyyyyy, you're soooo smaaaaart.

Anyway, this chick just asked why you don't drink. You're out, she orders a drink, it comes up. Fuck it. She's just making conversation. But how DARE she ask such an ignorant question! She should just KNOW!

Thousands of dates and hundreds of women, huh? You sure got bent the fuck out of shape over one in particular. Enough to puke this 90% concocted bullshit into your keyboard. This was the most annoying 30% of a post I've ever read.

[–]BestSC860 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah...it always funny how the biggest pussy slayers in the history of the universe somehow can't handle the most basic interaction with a female.

I think the 100s of pussies he has slayed is including the hours he spends on pornhub watching girls getting fucked.....those can be included in your n-count, right?

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

TL;DR: don't be afraid to tell a girl "I don't drink and if we're going out you also don't drink" if you're a recovering alcoholic.

For the bonus points, it also shows abundance mentality and outcome independence.

[–]justaskingman75 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I read most of that.

What I hope you are trying to convey is that it's your show. Stand up against ridiculousness and incoherent babble. There are always 2 parties to the discussion. Represent yours fully and truthfully. and the either accept hers or not. Come to a business type transaction. If it's ambiguous - you lose. If it's one sided - you will lose... Both parties must realize what's going on (whether they admit it or not) and accept the terms, otherwise it's a recipe for disaster, and disaster it will be.

[–]DouglasPR6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I learned the hard way that is better to walk out when she is different, fatter, older than her pictures show. The first two times it happened I was polite and excused myself with a "baby, I'm about to have a migraine just showed up here not to be rude with you, but I need a dark room and some zomig asap, bye". And took off. The last time I lost it. Called her on it, politely and friendly, but I just told her we were not a match anymore and that was her falt for making me assume she was 10 years younger.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah the vast majority of times, when they show up far older, heavier, whatever, you're best off just killing the date as fast as possible. I will say though that there have been a few times where I stuck it out for a little bit, ended up meeting female friends of the girl I was on a date with, and then eventually trading up to one of said friends (not that very night but soon after). Other times, I've met guy friends of the girl that ended up being good friends of mine down the line, so you never know.

But yeah, the older I get, the less patience I have overall with this sort of thing. Going forward I think it really is all about the 45 minute coffee date (tell her well in advance that's ALL the time you have), and then if you two really hit it off, you can always hit her with "Oh, I just got a text, meeting cancelled, so I can actually hang a bit longer" (to be used only if it's VERY clear she's heading back to yours that night).

[–]AnonymousAndLovinIt5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

First of all, kudos on the FR. Too many FRs here feel like porno scenes with some obvious advice at the end ("tl;dr height matters" really?). Looking back at your actions and giving us a FR on how you messed up is much appreciated. Thank you for that.

Her: "I'm sorry, I didn't know..." A brief pause, and then: "I've had a rough life too, my dad died, I had to put myself through school..."

I'm a softie. I would've caved. Laughing in her face was too harsh.

she says "So where to now?" Translation: "Take me back to your place and fuck me."

This got me curious. If that's how you understood it, why didn't you do it? Did you feel she wasn't worth it looks-wise, or on a whole?

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm a softie. I would've caved. Laughing in her face was too harsh.

To be fair I was definitely laughing more at the absurdity of the whole situation than laughing at HER per se. It just struck me as so bizarre, both of us ripping into each other like that, and then she hits me with "I had this awful time growing up..."--and right as my Uber was pulling up too. It really felt like a classic cringe comedy moment, like something out of a Ricky Gervais sitcom.

As far as the whole "Take me back to your place" implication, I think that's a testament to the extraordinary disconnect that was going on. I just wanted to wrap things up and get out of there ASAP, when I finally told her I was heading off on my own (rejecting her) that triggered her tirade, which in turn triggered mine. So yeah, a whole lot of FAIL all around (though I take all the blame, as I said in my FR, I should have done a better job running the show). But like I said elsewhere, all one can do is chalk it up to a learning experience and move on.

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro10 points11 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?? And what about your Diet Coke comment?? Do you really think that was appropriate 5 minutes into a first date? Do you know why I drink Diet Coke? BECAUSE I'M A FUCKING ALCOHOLIC YOU FUCKING CUNT. I'M A RECOVERING ALCOHOLIC WHO REGULARLY GOES TO AA MEETINGS, and yes I DID have a fucking problem with drinking years ago, but I solved that problem, it's something I'm extremely proud of, and continue to be proud of, EVERY SINGLE DAY

I love you bro, but you suck as a male.

Before a first date I state over text: "I don't drink and when you're with me you don't drink too" and poof it is solved. Some bitches fall off after that but if they want that alcoholic high before fucking it means we wouldnt be a match anyways.

Just chill. And if you're an alcoholic I really don't know what the fuck were you thinking when you were sitting with a girl sipping champagne. It is against the rules. You want to stay sober you don't sit with drinking people. 7 years of sobriety and you don't know that? Sucks.

[–]fischbrot1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

hi.

are you seriously texting that ? expecting the other party not to drink? thats quite interesting.

the rules? are there rules that say you cant enjoy an evening when 1 party is drinking while the (sober) alcoholic is not?

I am genuinely interested and would really love if you find a minute to broaden my horizon.

thaks : )

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hi,

I don't drink alcohol, I don't smoke and I expect people who go out with me also not to drink and not to smoke. I prefer things this way. If a girl doesn't like that, there are thousands of man to replace me with.

When I attended therapy to get rid of my alcohol addiction, they gave us some hints, tips, not "iron rules", but suggestions what to do if we want to stay sober. One of the rules was to not spend time with people who drink, not to talk with drunk people, to not accept alcohol gifts, to deny alcohol in case someone offered it, including "your boss or a beautiful women" (that's a quote).

Those rules soon became very useful to me. It was easy to get rid of sugar and nicotine in my life by using them. When I realised I want to stop eating sugar, I threw out all sweets in my home, because rules for addicted to alcohol suggested thrashing all alcohol, glasses, chalices, all that shit. Ha, few months ago I started keto - by now you should know what I did first. All the pasta and flour was gone from my home first.

Those aren't "iron rules" but mere suggestions. OP had his tantrum because alcoholics should not be exposed to alcohol and/or drinking people, especially when they can't hold frame, PERIOD. And throwing a tantrum is just a very typical behaviour for an addicted person. They need to victimise themselves first, OP needed that woman to be stupid, hurtful, he needed to resent that person and that situation - so, guess what, so he can wallow in his favourite addiction. And, what addiction you say, OP does not drink. Any other addiction: maybe OP was overeating, maybe he smokes, maybe he ate sweets, maybe he came to some subreddit looking for validation.

If you're interested in broadening your horizon, check for "open AA meetings" in your area. Open meetings are meetings that can be attended by people interested, who don't necessarily have an addiction. Books by Steven Chandler are a very interesting read too.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

5 years sober here man. I just say I'm not feeling it that night, or I have to be up early or maybe some other time if they ask why I'm not drinking. And after date 2 or 3 I say I had a problem and I tell some crazy story how I ended up on someone else's boat off the coast of Cuba so I decided I shouldn't drink because I can't have just one.

It's either zero drinks or 47. Lately I've been telling chicks earlier so if they can't accept it they can gtfo right from the get go lol.

Most people are super respectful​ 99.9% of the time. The other times people are an ass and yeah it throws me off a bit, but I just shrug it off. I could ruin their night saying how does it make you feel trying to get a ex heroin addict drunk? But I've never had to revert to that. I'll admit the very few cases where people were super pushy I was pretty annoyed but I handled it pretty well.

I'll agree on keeping those rules and running the show, it makes everything go smother. Even though the chick may seem special you're still you and you should abide by your rules. I actually read your entire post and enjoyed it, but do some reflection on this man, I try and do outdoorsy things for first dates, it's unconventional but has turned out well. Best of luck and keep it up man

[–]DiggerClam5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You're good at basketball AND chess?!

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Check out THE ART OF LEARNING by JOSH WAITZKIN, guy was a world champion at both chess AND Tai Chi (push hands), pretty amazing.

[–]2niczar4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

She asked you why you weren't drinking. You could have stoicly asserted that you simply don't want to drink at this time, instead you chose to make it a big fucking deal.

Hm.

[–]rockmasterflex4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Seems like you were he one with the biggest red flag: you ordered a diet coke.

Obviously she was smart enough to suss out that you had a problem with alcohol at some point, because of the way you told her you "DON'T DRINK" and pressed you for a confession (I have no idea why someone would do this though).

Now, its obviously not someone's business that you are a recovering alcoholic on the first date. But you told her that when you said you "DON'T DRINK".

Its the equivalent of someone inviting you to a carnival and you saying "I DON'T GO TO CARNIVALS ANYMORE, NOT AFTER.... THAT TIME...".

Sending up one of the largest red flags a guy can send up. Of COURSE she was going to investigate it the only way she knew how.

[–]Timewasting140 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If she's looking for a stable partner recovering alcoholic is a giant red flag to any sensible woman. She was right to press him to see if a relationship with him would be worth her time. She put up attractive photos online and has good social skills from everything OP says - the charming phone call, but more importantly the ability to see right through OP's problem with alcohol.

OP is an asshole and she is playing the game correctly.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

your problem was you couldn't blow away a shit test

[–]Endorsed ContributorWoujo4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The real joke: some of them, like my best friend the stripper / escort, who surely deserves a series of her own posts (coming soon), make more in a single night than most of the highly educated women of NYC make in an entire year).

I don't believe this. What escort is making $150k a night? You can fuck the hottest pornstar in America for $500/hr.

This date doesn't sound that bad to me. This is how you should have handled it.

First, I don't mind her picking a place. I always have a back-up in mind, so if she fucks it up I take control again. She did fuck it up here but you took control again. So no harm, no foul.

When she asked why you didn't drink, you should have just said "none of your business." If she gets snooty I would say "maybe when we know each other more I can divulge personal information like that." You seem to be insecure and sensitive about your sobriety and you let that get to you.

The rest of the dumbass conversation about your drinking is because you let her pull you into her anxiety pool. I do a lot of weird shit (I'm ultra-religious, etc...), but if a girl ever tries to fight me on it, I'm like "we're not going to talk about it."

Me: "ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?? And what about your Diet Coke comment?? Do you really think that was appropriate 5 minutes into a first date?"

You let her get to you. You lost. You lost big. Why would you give a fuck what she said? No offense, but you look like a big, whiny baby here.

[–]Endorsed Contributorbogeyd65 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If the goal of the date is to f close the girl while having a good time doing it you have failed. You are giving up at the slightest resistance. Instead of an opportunity to sharpen your A&A you basically had a temper tantrum in public.

[–]AngryWatchmaker16 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

OP goes on a date with a fat chick and is sensitive about his sobriety then proceeds to have a meltdown.

[–]bangermin2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is a really nice FR, I like how it's kept really genuine and analytic, thanks for the valuable input and the nicely pointed out lessons.

[–]PanzerBatallion1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm 38. I drink VERY rarely. Like, it's an occasion. A 6 pack will last me a month or 2.

The thing is though, I never drank. I've been this way since 21, and before. The problem is in your head, not in anyone else's. When everyone else orders beers and I order cherry coke, I just tell them it never appealed to me, or I never acquired a taste for alcohol (both of which are true). End of conversation.

What you have here is textbook insecurity. You're ashamed of your past and you're projecting it on other people. It doesn't exist in their head, they don't give a shit whether you drink or not. She pushed your buttons and you failed. You failed the test of a hard 5.

It happens, but you can move on.

[–]mobynodick3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I cringed the entire way through this. The unnecessary bold font for every point and you boasting about sleeping with hundreds of women was a class act. I wish this sub required you to show your face before posting.

[–]FUCK_YEA_GLITTER2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I wish this sub required you to show your face before posting

This would make some of the dumb posts in thus sub even funnier

[–]BestSC860 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah...he has fucked 100s of women but goes freaking butthurt over a simple question that every normal girl would ask on a normal date with a person they were considering bringing into their world and life?

Right......100sssssssssss

[–]simplisticallysimple0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm glad I'm not the only one who called him out on this. Mentioning that one has slept with 100s of women isn't necessarily a lie, but it seems very unbelievable for a man who has such weak frame and commits such rookie mistakes.

[–]PM_Your_8008s3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I've slept with hundreds of women, it's not like I don't know what's up at this point

Maybe in your dreams or your fictional writing, but obviously not in real life. You sound like a fucking psychopath and writing a novel about this to make yourself feel better isn't convincing anyone otherwise.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm 41, I've had like 25 years active in the sexual marketplace. Been in monogamous relationships for maybe a total of 2 or 3 years (when I add them all together), so yeah, that's a lot of time out in the playing field.

Add to that I traveled throughout my late teens, lived in NYC from 25 to 37, and have been in LA for the past 4 years, and I'm sure you can do the math there.

To be fair, if I want to be absolutely TECHNICALLY correct about my partner count, it's actually somewhere between 150 and 200 (I never kept exact track, just kind of a rough count every year or so). So yes, it's true, I guess I shouldn't say HUNDREDS (because that implies more than 200, yes?). I should say "getting up towards 200" and leave it at that.

Thing is, it's not like I'm Mr. Awesome over here. If you're not happy with your partner count, you need to change your logistics my man. (I really need to make a post on this.) Move to a major city, go out with friends, party, have some drinks (unless it's a problem, this coming from the sober guy), chat up some girls, see what happens. If you're single and fun and living in a major city, and you go out all the time, your partner count will soar, it'll happen automatically.

I've always taken it for granted, living in big cities, that this is how it works everywhere, so yes, I often forget that there are people who live in more remote, out of the way places, where hooking up isn't quite so easy (fewer bars and fewer scenes, people have to drive long distances etc). Get yourself to a place where people love to party and, in addition, they walk everywhere, and you'll get to triple digits soon enough.

And by the way, most of my guy friends who've lived a similar lifestyle (big city, like to go out a lot etc), WAY ahead of me, in terms of partner count. Lot of these guys are around my age and up in the mid to high hundreds, and they're not all Chad Thundercock. They're just cool dudes who like to go out and be social.

It's not that hard, really.

[–]BestSC863 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That girl dodged a damn bullet.....good thing that she outed this retarded autistic, pretentious fuckwad before letting him into her world.

Damn...he has it all. Drinking problems, raging insecurity and anger management issues all wrapped up in a self-involved pretentious twit.

Advice for Op....stop chasing random pussy and spend your resources and time in therapy.

[–]cmski294 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

why did you get so triggered over a girl asking you why you don't drink lmao

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not my best moment for sure.

It was a field report designed to show me at my worst, not at my best.

Most of my dates, like 80%, go extremely well. Maybe 15% are meh. Then there's 5% that just don't work, at all. This was the bottom of that 5%.

Just goes to show that even if you've clocked quite a few hours on the field, you can still totally fuck it up from time to time.

Hopefully some valuable lessons for others.

[–]like_em_thick points points [recovered] | Copy Link

Wait wait wait...

THIS GUY IS A WRITER???

[–]6foot4whitemale9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah... that's what I thought.

[–]Hector_Castillo0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

A good one to boot. Go back to your cave.

[–]PhishPhan70018 points19 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

How dare this girl not know that you quit drinking for personal reasons after you guys went out to a bar with nearly no prior knowledge of one another's live. I mean, for shame.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It's cool to ask but you're an asshole If you prod about it imo

[–]PhishPhan7003 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Definitely, just felt the need to point out the irony. OP seemed utterly shocked that someone would question his choice to not drink in an establishment designed for that very purpose.

[–]Timewasting14-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

She's looking for the highest quality man she can find. A history of alcohol abuse is a massive red flag.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It was all over my profile, she knew, she just wanted to get into the "why" of it, and try to bring me back to the drinking fold (albeit in the harshest, most obnoxious manner possible).

The truth is regular drinkers just don't get it--their response is always "Come on, you're fine, JUST DRINK LESS!!" I know, and I can't blame them at all, I used to be the exact same way (in fact I said the exact same thing to a friend of mine who got sober right before I did). So I know exactly what it looks like from both sides of the fence.

Still, the frame loss was entirely mine. Gotta own it, learn from it, move on.

[–]redkick2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No, for me personally, recovering alcoholics are a red flag for relationships only because they might fall back to drinking once they hit any snag in life, like a disagreement with their partner or a problem at work.

I'm sorry for you, but the way I see it is that alcoholics at one point in the past hit some behavior they knew was unacceptable (like drinking heavy stuff alone at home), but didn't immediately try to fix it before it became a real problem, instead letting it slide so it became a life-changing event. They've already crossed a line nobody should cross, and that's something they can easily do again in the future.

Also, her pressuring you on this point means that she probed you for a relationship, not for a one-nighter.

[–]PhishPhan7001 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah man it's all good, the important thing is to keep your cool about it. People judge an ex addict(opiates here) or alcoholic all the time. It's how we react to that judgement that defines us.

[–]reddick12 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Your big mistake was falling into her questions and giving drawn out detailed answers on stuff that makes you uncomfortable.

If something makes you uncomfortable then you should just immediately make that clear and make her feel awkward. You could have said simply "lets talk about something else."

You should never be giving information about yourself that is remotely as detailed as that.

You say you've been with hundreds of girls then you should know shit tests by now, redpill basics. As soon as you are being put on the defensive you should deflect immediately.

Also you should have just hinted that you "don't want to drink tonight" when you walk into a wine bar and she's obviously going to order wine. Being a former alcoholic you should know that drinking alone with someone else who's not drinking is lame, and she would give you some light pressure to get a drink. I could have seen that one coming a mile away.

[–]brettfromtibet2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not drinking is not necessarily some huge cataclysmic decision. I am a health fanatic and I just don't like feeling shitty and hungover. Like Trump, I just never liked it and never got into it.

[–]NikoMyshkin2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I always take cash with me on first dates. If I think it's gonna be a waste of time and want to leave early to do something productive.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I enjoyed your post, it strongly resonated with me as I have issues with drinking in my family and have vowed to never drink.

Thank you, and ignore the trolls that say it's very long, or the it's some diary level shit, I really enjoyed your writing style.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks man, glad you liked it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Cheers for the write up OP. I know other users are flinging shit at you, but life isn't perfect and sometimes we all fuck up.

The choosing the venue part is so crucial. I met with a girl the other night and she chose the venue and I felt like a fish on a line the entire time. Complete idiot, just wasn't thinking and didn't take control of the conversation beforehand. She asked me out somewhere and my mind just went vagina!

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep, it happens to the best of us.

[–]global_sak2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hmmmm you are a sissy little fag. So she "triggered" you and you can't handle talking about your drinking problem openly and owning it? Is it such a bad thing to just fucking disclose it when they served you a Diet Coke and she asked why you had that? Instead of just telling the coherent answer, you opted for a socially retarded answer that anyone on a date would wonder about further? She was examining if you were a psycho or a junkie, and you get triggered for it?

This is the worst wall of text "advice" I have read in a while.

Lessons learned: have boundaries , but don't be a fucking fag about them. Be a man with a reasonable degree of tolerance.

[–]morendman2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It isn't normal to be that defensive over diet coke, kid.

[–]hamstercide2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It sounds like the girl dodged a bullet here. Your response was way off he charts and only showed her there's something wrong with you. You were also reading too much into her questions.

[–]holiestoftheholies2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This guy admitted that he had a melt down and he still got shit from you guys. Jesus Christ.

[–]ziggmuff4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I liked the part where she cried LOL

[–]BlackHipsterSpecs11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Arrogant and whiny dude poses as alpha - includes ridicuous assumptions about what girl means when she says shit in field report. 5 min wasted.

[–]UnKnownSurviving5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Love this shit. Yeah, this shit is long, but it provide enough perspective of what went wrong, because of not following your simple rules, which i might add, is crucial in getting yourself through the day, as a means of survival. The rule doesn't have to be super complicated, but at least relatively simple. I've just gotten started it, starting over now. I've had a relationship with a Japanese girl, and had fallen madly in love, only to find out, she wasn't interested, and really, really wanted to say, no, when she had said yes. Seriously. This pissed me off. I became half madman, half broken. Total insanity, if you ask me. I've gotten better now, since three years ago. And things are slow, right now, but for good reasons. (I realized why it is slow, because Life is giving me another chance to improve. Had I gotten this Jap, pregnant, or something along the lines, I'd been fucked, and could've been worse off.) Right now, I have plenty of peace and quiet, which gives me time, to work out the clink, and no interest in dating. No nonsense, and other bullshit. I've been watching MGTOW videos, and it's helpful. Extremely helpful.

For now, though, I'm putting off dating, until I feel I'm ready and have establish my own personal dating rules, and man rules, (I didn't before. I kind of wish I did), and have internally worked on my masculine traits: in other words, grow big balls. I wasn't a coward, but I was kind of beta, too much of softy.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Totally. You're much better off securing your foundation, and then building from a solid place. The last thing you want is to try to build a skyscraper on a foundation suited only for a shack.

Improve, figure out who you are, what your "rules" are, where your boundaries are, etc etc--all of this can be extremely useful, and will absolute push your game forward in the long run.

[–]TRP_MushaShugyo5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Damn man, are there really that few educated and intelligent women in LA? I'm planning to move there to pursue acting at the end of the year but had no idea it was THAT bad... Educated/intelligence is a must for any serious LTR in my book...

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I've been here almost four years, and while I've met a small handful of smart, educated women, all of them, without exception, have been of the settled down variety, in long term relationships, married, with kids, etc etc (and in every case, the relationship was started elsewhere, and then the couple moved here to LA).

I love this city, really I do, but finding a smart, single girl out here, I just don't know if it's possible. There are a lot of FUN girls out here, fine for one-nighters or casual plating, but if you're looking for something more serious, that's a tough one.

Wouldn't let that stop you from coming here though, if you wanna do acting this is the place. Move out here, get serious about your craft, and see what happens.

[–]Conradooo-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I tell you some real advice mate, your life will get a whole lot easier if you meet someone actually intelligent. I'm sure the environment your work in and the people you meet make it really easy for you to pass as one of the smart guys around, well educated, able to name random artists or choose a wine. Believe me, meet someone smart, someone really smart, smart enough that they don't need/have social skills or anything besides knowing what they know and seeing the world how they see it. Change your perspective, maybe you'll even be smart enough to understand that there are things they can comprehend and that you can see what they are, but can't come close. It's an experience that'll pull your head out of your arse, make you think less shallowly about those around you (rather than dismissing them as unintelligent), which will in turn get you out of the habit of overthinking things and baiting yourself like a Fuckwit when it comes to things like your drinking or your loss of frame.

[–]Pepe_Waifu1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This was pretty brutal to read.

[–]NeoreactionSafe1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

 

No one stops drinking forever CASUALLY. It is always, ALWAYS a very big fucking decision, and when one makes that decision, it is inevitably because either something very bad happened, or the person knew something very bad was about to happen, and so said person made the decision to get the fuck out while they still could, and that's all there is to it.

 

Alcohol reduces the number of thoughts in the background of your mind and creates focus.

If taken too far you get tunnel vision.

But it's this "thought reduction / focus" that lowers anxiety because anxiety is when sixteen ideas are competing in your head for dominance.

Alcohol allows one thought, one emotion to become dominant.

People who can't handle alcohol in moderation are a huge red flag because it means they lack awareness of their emotional impulses.

It's a valid criticism.

A Red Pill aware masculine male should be able to drink alcohol in moderation without any problems or alcoholism.

Alcohol also can access specific thoughts or emotions and amplify them, so it's a good way to conduct a "lie detector test" on a female. If she exposes her true inner nature when drunk (which is typically the all too familiar degenerate slut) then you know what you are into.

 

Never trust anyone you can't get drunk with or freaks out.

 

  • If you get a girl drunk and she just gets loving, soft and submissive then you have a good thing.

  • If she turns into the loud mouthed degenerate Feminist slut with blue hair and tattoos then you have shit.

 

[–]butter_coffee1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Every dude who's ever said their unicorn is a smart girl has a bad time.

First, they're either out to prove that all girls are dumb, so the first smart one is special. But being dumb is the tactic.

Second, the guys are usually insecure and want to banter about how much smart stuff they know, usually pointing out when the girl lacks.

Third, who wants to debate all the time with a girl? When you lose, you'll carry that resentment all day. No one wants an argumentative combative girl.

Usually the "smart girls" are driven and competitive, which guys might find intimidating or a turn off. It's not uncommon they'd be snobby or put you down, it's probably why they want to seem smart in the first place.

Save your smartness to your hobby mates.

Being dumb is the "smart" tactic; be easy going and fun, and guys will be attracted. they say in TRPwomen, you're not here to be his bro or debate intellectually with him, you're here to de-stress and have a good time. A smart person would not say they're smart.

I don't think you are secure enough to handle a smart chick. And the girl in your story doesn't sound too smart either, if she's trying to show off her smartness right off the bat. In watching lots of smart couples, when they get together they just have fun and enjoy eachother, even when one or both is a millionaire. They never bring up how smart they are.

[–]MikeN_ike1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Honestly bro the outburst might not have been called for but It's whatever you were pissed obviously it might've been a shit test the entire time but you weren't into her so who gives a fuck If you're not into her at all what's the point of holding frame anyway

[–]ticklethegooch11 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

To read the comments is pretty weird. /u/IGoYouStayTwoAutumns tells the reader in advance that he lost his cool and didn't follow his own rules because he found his unicorn, then proceeds to what he should have done instead. But now gets criticized from u/ for losing his cool and didn't follow TRP truths and tell him what he should have done instead?

Kinda reminds me of that escalation: Indian guy slaps a woman, sees his mistake (gives a reason) and then whole India is beating the shit out of him.

Only useful advice came from /u/ex_addict_bro

Staying away from drinking people is recommended when you recover. Op broke that rule, no wonder he had an outburst - a nice start of a relapse.

/u/IGoYouStayTwoAutumns you did a nice reflection and stay focused to improve yourself.

[–]crazitomali1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Man. I still would of fucked her... lol.

[–]Free_skier1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Why don't you drink is a legit question. There is no reason to get pissed for it, especially if your are proud of it.

[–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

about 40 pounds away from where she was right then.

That's not a 5. A 5 is an average girl. They are pleasant to look at because women are pleasant to look at. They are very fuckable and certainly welcome to crowd under my tree. Would I CHOOSE them over an 8? No.

An extra 40 lbs is a pig. She better have a beautiful face to even break into a 4.

[–]TheRealYekke1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

quite entertaining, you followed the rabbit all the way down the hole, she's used to controlling frame, and she had her rejection speech down pat. Sounds like she dates for free food, and doesn't mind losing. The red flags I see are different: 1. She was so different than the dominant demographic of her geography. Loner 2. 'Culture', she's from elsewhere and in a matriarchal hard coded frame

Really, you had to endure the entire date to truly appreciate how alone you are in that narcissistic town..my only comment - I would have vectored the Uber a few blocks away, then I would have been able to just walk away from HB5

[–]Ruuubick1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Damn if you were to put as much effort into finding someone good for you as you put into making this post, you wouldn't need to frequent this sub anymore.

[–]1DubbleFUPAwitCheez1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Enjoyable and true read. That part about her breaking into tears and telling you her problems is something of a deal breaker for me. It's such a repulsive grab for frame, something of a fools mate in my eyes. It also just turns any feelings into straight up pity.

I had a similar date where the girl showed up, not as attractive as I liked but she was cool. She wasn't rude or stupid and after awhile I started to enjoy her company. She was treating me like some sort of hero, being very complimentary and making the whole thing one big ego boost for me. Just as I was considering letting her give me a bj in the back of her car she brought up how her ex used to beat her or some such shit.

Women are prone to hyperbole and as a guy that has seen a chick that legitimately was abused at the hand of a psychopath hearing someone bring up their 'abusive' past just turns me all the way off. On the first date letting someone know how you have baggage just never made sense to me and as I said just seems like wholesale beta bait. A girl trying to betatize me with such bull shit hasn't worked for years even before this event. The mood shifted immediately and I told her what was up and left. Never talked to her again.

Always be true to yourself men, it will always be the best choice.

[–]Senior ContributorMentORPHEUS1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My observations.

  • This was at least 2/3 filler. It reminded me of David Deangelo's lengthy emails from back in the day.
  • So much DEERing
  • Massive loss of frame. You didn't Fucking rip her in half, so much as entered her frame.

In the future discreetly order a cranberry and tonic or something that looks like a drink, and avoid the whole shit show.

[–]grass_cutter1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

LOL This can't be real, can it?

  1. Catfished by whale.

  2. Whale chooses venue with 90 minute wait.

  3. Said whale doesn't even understand sobriety. Encourages 'X years sober' person to start drinking again b/c social retard.

  4. Whale then goes on tirade about manners.

I mean jesus, the worst date of all time. Might be partially or fully made up though. The part where you said "are you fucking kidding me?" sounds definitely made up, people say that in writing all the time but not so much in real life. Phrase sucks too. No. No they are not "kidding" you.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hah hah no believe me I say that one in real life all the time. My memory for dialogue's pretty good, I think I hit it pretty close with this one.

[–]GuamPolice1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The fact that OP is such an elitist about intelligence and education level, but there are no less than 15 grammar errors/typos in this post.

Gr8 b8 m8

[–]TheSlicemanCometh2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I made this mistake one time. Never again.

Back when Tinder was in its heyday I ended at a lunch place with a new girl after a back n forth.

Go to the place. Order sandwiches. Sit down.

No shit within 3 minutes the words come out of her mouth. "...because women are smarter than men. Its a scientific fact."

The look of utter disbelief on my face I simply cannot understate. I sat there jaw hanging for like 20 seconds absolutely not knowing what to say or do.

My gut said GTFO right now but at the time I was in a very bad place financially and I remember thinking I cant just leave because I NEED that sandwich.

Never spoke to her again but she got a free sandwich out of it and I wasted an afternoon. Im in a much better place in my life now and that shit every happens to me again Im fucking ghost. What a nightmare. Fucking shocker she was in her late 20s and trying to find true love on Tinder, stupid cunt.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hah hah, yeah sometimes they really do blindside you right up front. It's easy for many to play keyboard quarterback and scream "Well why didn't you just walk out BRAH??!! Why didn't you hold FRAME??!!" But the reality is, when you're sitting there, actually facing another human being, it's very, very different--and yeah sometimes the rules can go right out the window, just "because" (and this can happen even if you've spent a lot of time out on dates).

Ultimately all we can do is look back and laugh at our mistakes.

But yeah, Tinder--yikes. Pretty scary place these days.

[–]dum_dum_boy1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Big takeaways...

1) OP's 1st mistake: living in Hollywood.

2) 2nd mistake: Unicorns DO NOT exist. They aren't real. He set himself up for failure before he even met this chick!

3) 3rd mistake: Online dating is mostly a waste of time.

4) All the other mistakes he mentioned in the novella format.

[–]simplisticallysimple0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What's wrong with living in Hollywood? I've lived in East Hollywood, and it was just fine.

[–]josegonzalez8891 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Be honest with yourself and read back through this. You still have a lot of improving to do, man. The first date should be fun for the pair of you. This is all far too tense and overthought as shown by the length of your post. If you're going to eject, do so smoothly. You don't have to shit all over her as this will make her just want to gain revenge on you and is bad for rep. There is a few decent points in this post but it's too long. Brevity. I don't get how you haven't learned this over calibrating through 1000s of dates tbh ...

[–]crimsonkodiak1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're getting too defensive about not drinking. If someone asks you why you don't drink, just tell them you don't feel like drinking.

I know lots of guys who don't drink. Some of them don't for religious reasons. Some of them are hardcore into weightlifting and think it will limit their gains. One of them stopped because he woke up to find he'd driven his truck into a ditch. A lot of others just don't like drinking.

There's no rule that says you have to drink and it's not as uncommon for people not to drink as you think it is.

Honestly, if it were anything else, you wouldn't feel weird about telling people you don't do it. I don't drink soda because I don't think it's good for me and I don't find enough enjoyment in it to outweigh the negative health effects. Alcohol is probably worse for you than soda, so why do you need a reason not to drink it? Just say you don't like to drink.

[–]RealityBitesU1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

TL;DR, OP is a weak framed beta attempting to re-frame his public temper tantrum and mentally masturbate to his rambling, unending torrent of drivel.

[–]EastrnCowboy1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Shiieeet. If this is the worse LA girls have to offer, then I must have been dating Satans autistic daughters this whole time

[–]VanityKings1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You have a lot of fucking problems. Get professional help dude

[–]cashmoney_x1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You talk way too fucking much.

[–]1Sir_Distic1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I would like to point out 2 observations.

  1. Clearly you saw all your faults. You reflected and saw where you screwed up. Things you said and did wrong, from her picking the place (leading you) to your blowing up at the end in a public and embarrassing way for her (easy for the tears to flow and then White Knights come to her aid.) And that's good. Plenty of people are saying "you're not ready" or "you failed by getting upset over your sobriety" etc. And they are right. You did. But at least you now acknowledge it and can handle it better. Remember, you don't owe anyone an explanation. Next time simply deflect and move on. If she keeps pressing then you'll know to walk away.

  2. No one stops drinking forever CASUALLY.

Wrong! I did. Dec 31st 2014 I decided to quit drinking. I haven't touched a drop since then. Now I'm not a recovering alcoholic or anything. I'd drink 1-2 glasses every 3-4 months. Honestly.

I just no longer enjoyed drinking. So I stopped. I know I'll just order a Coke and if they don't like it, tough. Same with women. "Why don't you drink?" 'I choose not to." etc.

If you feel the NEED to explain make something up you can live with. "I eat/drink healthy and alcohol has no place for me." or something else. But you should never explain if you don't want to.

And being proud of your sobriety is cool. just make sure you are confident and happy about it. Hell, next time it comes up raise your diet Coke and go "cheers"

[–]PEPEdamus1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Having a college degree does not necessarily make one intelligent.

Reading this post I can see that you have a very large ego and get very defensive very quickly.

Work on it!

[–]V1SoR2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ugh. I don't even know where to start...

OP, you're a piece of shit. Your whole post is complete, utter gibberish, nothing but a waste of time. The pinnacle of cluelessness there can even be.

I will keep this as short as possible. Basically, you are insecure as fuck due to your past/present alcohol issues, and no woman with any shade of self-esteem will come near you, even if you work your ass off to pretend you're 'alpha' (using this word in relation to you, even in apostrophes, makes me cringe).

Her attitude wasn't stupidity or violation of your 'boundaries', as you erroneously ramble about. It was slightly tactless at worst, and yes it may seem like stupidity, but if you insist on having an IQ higher than that of a pubert baboon, you could tell that this is a sure sign of a lacking social life / not going out much / not talking much to people in real life. Hence why the phone buffer 'mislead' you, it was within her comfort zone. More than any of that though, it also suggests a degree of innocence, much how children ask things that are inappropriate for an adult. I would choose that any day over fake ass whores with their 'proper' social awareness and magnificent roleplaying.

Is she immature? Perhaps. Is she stupid? Not as a result of anything you wrote in your post. Actually, OP, I think you're the one stupid here, mean and stupid. Your outburst is the real definition of toxic masculinity.

Your so-called 'boundaries' are laughable. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously if you can't control yourself?

[–]pharmerbear5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Op sounds like an sjw expecting date to read his mind and overthinks everything. Gets triggered nonstop. Girl was probably just joking with him bout the Diet Coke. If you had to write 3 pages over Diet Coke something's wrong.

[–]ChapoDangerPowers3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

tldr: OP is insecure about himself and bailed out of his date
Felt the need to write an essay about how it's the girl's fault.

[–]gnt_13 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're a moron, OP. While I agree with your general premise that you should just leave when you don't like it or simply show her you don't like something she does, being a fucking asshole about it and not being able to keep your shit together is very... womanly of you.

When she asked you about the drinking thing, she probably didn't really mean to anger you, probably didn't even give a shit about it and only asked to keep up the conversation. All you had to say was "I don't want to talk about it".

And there's notghing wrong with phone conversations before the first date. I avoid it too, but I did it once and it was so good we met for sex straight up.

[–]NovicePilgrim2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

tl dr: OP failed her shittests and broke frame like if it was made of pudding.

Then he comes to trp to vent hiding it under the guise of "learn from my mistakes", when he is simply writing a personal diary.

Nothing to see here, gents.

[–]livinlavidal0ca2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're a writer? A lot of redundancy in this script. Must be writing transformer movies

[–]Psychocist1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Her: "I'm sorry, I didn't know..." A brief pause, and then: "I've had a rough life too, my dad died, I had to put myself through school..." And that's when I just started laughing right out loud. It really was the craziest, weirdest, saddest, funniest fucking thing--this chick trying to steal back the frame (yet again) with her tears, I couldn't help it, I just laughed right in her face, which of course, only made her cry harder (I can't imagine what the onlookers were thinking)--

You sound like you need to go to therapy perhaps? What happened to being stoic and non-reactive? You are seriously vulnerable if it only takes a woman 5 minutes to breakdown your frame and offend you. What happened to seeing women as immature teenagers and not taking what they say to heart?

..and on the back of that absolute shit-fest of a date that you should have ended the second you weren't attracted to her, you come here and have the audacity to give us advice?? Ha! GTFO.

Do more work on yourself. It's hard to believe you've been on thousands of dates. You must not be learning a thing, just trying to teach other people what YOU should be taking on yourself.

[–]imn0tg00d1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You lost me when you started bragging about how your words in an online profile won girls over. No one reads that shit, lift more.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Fuck I actually really enjoyed this, really well written and a good step-by-step on the excuses we feed ourselves when giving up frame

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks man glad you liked it.

Frame is never stolen from us all at once, is it. It's always by inches--gradually, and then suddenly. Something we should definitely talk about more on here.

[–]reigorius2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I lost interest in the comments section as the hate that is spewed here and the black & white way of seeing how things should be when OP tries to talk and learn about failures. If one thing is certain, you only learn from failure.

[–]AvengerSentinel4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Excellent fucking post man. Again, you're a hell of a writer, so it was a breeze to read through your lengthy post, barely felt like I exerted any effort.

I'm convinced that, oftentimes, when men are among their male friends, they'll rehash TRP talking points like, "Always hold frame!", "Don't get oneitis!"; and when women are among their friends, they'll say stuff like, "Don't put out on the first date!" & "I won't continue to have sex with _________ because he cheats and never spends time with me!"......but in actuality, both sexes drop the ball when it comes to holding frame once they're interacting with each other. The woman whores out to the man to keep him around. The man can't resist missing a certain girl or nailing a chick who's shown various red flags. I see this happen time & time again with family and friends.

I'm currently in Monk Mode, and yeah, when I'm by myself, it's easy to commit to this. But when I'm out and about, and I'm getting opened by a girl who's clearly very into me, it's harder than I'd like to admit to not give in. When things are happening in the moment, it's easy to break frame and not think it's a big deal.

[–]FrakkenKrakken4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The irony that you are a former alcoholic and writing about red flags. Control the frame by either owning it, sidestepping, making a joke or making up an unrelated story about someone you knew that died of cirrhosis or something but for the love of god stop being a sensitive little bitch that let's a girl control the frame.

[–]Johndoesmith672 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

having done both recently (sat through the dumbest shit, and walked out early) I greatly appreciate you taking the time to write this out. Knowing we aren't alone in out troubles. I have recently sat through a girl crying about an ex, being disowned, and crying during the date. With an internal monologue of "jesus dude why are you doing this to yourself? Just fucking leave! Go! You owe her nothing!

To the opposite of meeting up with a girl and her saying some generic XYZ thing right away and muttering to her face "hmmmmmmmm aint that some shit"

and right away leaving. Feels good knowing we are all somewhat in the same silly, bassakwards boat. That at the end of the day we are simply D2D sales people all trying to make a sale.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks man, it really is tough sometimes, isn't it? I like to think I have a bit of experience on the playing field, by now, but the Great Game still manages to surprise me sometimes (often for the better, occasionally for the worse, as in my FR).

The fact is, you can read TRP until you have the theory down COLD, you can clock thousands of hours out there running around, and still get caught off guard, lose the frame, get thrown for a loop. As I mentioned elsewhere, even the pros drop the ball all the time--we're not surprised when that happens, so we shouldn't be surprised when even some fairly experienced daters still get blindsided with an unexpected situation every now and then.

Or hell, maybe it's even an EXPECTED situation, and we see what's happening WHILE it's actually happening, but for whatever reason, we just can't (or won't) extract ourselves from the swamp. Only after, in hindsight, can we really break down what happened. And hopefully not make the same mistake twice.

[–]Johndoesmith671 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It is what it is. There are a couple billion hot, in your standards, want to meet you age appropriate girls out there for you. No need to sweat the small stuff. As you can see I am an eternal optimist, but the principal is still the same. Just go....Just do.

[–]The_Tempestuous_Man2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nice piece. I've experienced the same with regard to being lured into the girl's frame and meeting where she wants to. Always has ended poorly.

I do the same date in the same place, and if the girl doesn't go for it then the date doesn't happen. Hell there was a brief period I was wearing the same outfit each time! Because every time I've deviated from the tried and tested game plan I only end up with a lighter wallet to show for it.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because every time I've deviated from the tried and tested game plan I only end up with a lighter wallet to show for it.

Abso-fucking-lutely. (In fact you should totally do a post about this.)

I have it down to a science now--same exact place, same time (day of the week slightly flexible but must be Tues Wed or Thurs), I always sit in the EXACT same spot (at that bar in the restaurant I like, and then we either stay there or move outside to the courtyard), I have just a few different standard first date outfits (which I alter slightly depending on the girl's age, profession, and the weather), and that's it--the whole thing really is a very well-rehearsed performance. And it always, always works out so much better that way. And every time I deviate from said plan (which isn't often but does happen, as in my FR), the date always suffers as a result.

What women call "Fate", men call "Proper planning".

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You sound insecure as fuck bro...

[–]YiloMiannopoulos2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Could you go ahead and write that again, but I want it to fit on my phones screen without scrolling.

[–]1------6EQUJ5-11--1-1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I feel like this is very anecdotal and not widely applicable to the RPC.

[–]OmniscientOCE1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The title comes off as autistic

[–]SiulaGrande1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

THE END (IN BRIEF)

lmao yeah fucking right, this whole thing is longer than War and Peace

[–]Tron100001 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

you really made a long ass post about a date on here

[–]p3n1x1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Tell us all about it (bonus points if you can share some tales of woe from the sober dating scene)--

What is this cosmopolitan bullshit?

[–]DotishGuy1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Poor control of whitespace indeed

[–]simplisticallysimple1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've slept with hundreds of women

BULL-FUCKING-SHIT

I haven't read the rest of the comments yet, but if you're saying you've had 200 or more legit lays (no prostitutes), I don't buy it for one second. I myself have a high n-count -- not going to advertise it here, but it's high enough to be able to tell a fellow high-n-counter -- and I can tell immediately you don't have the characteristics of a man who gets laid, much less gets laid a lot.

Seriously: pedestalization, oneitis, doing dates for girls who haven't put out, not planning logistics, losing your cool, letting her control the frame, not screening well enough to determine if she's provider-hunting, realizing "walking away" is a tactic like it's some big epiphany, etc. are all rookie mistakes. I learned from those mistakes when my n-count was like 20-30.

You can certainly drop that sort of fake humblebrag and fool the majority of this sub, but any of the other high-n-count guys here know you're bullshitting big time. It takes one to know one; we know you aren't one of us. High-n-count guys have a different set of problems, never basic shit like this.

You seriously thought no one would call you out on your garbage?

[–]suxxos1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

One could argue that the girl was tactless, but frankly, nothing of the sort would have happened if you knew how to lead the conversation. Change the topic, it's as simple as that. It looks to me like you couldn't think of anything to say, and the girl was trying to keep the conversation going, asking the question that came out of curiosity. I mean, dude, there are tens of reasons why people don't drink, most of them are pretty casual, like, I have an important business meeting tomorrow and don't want to be hungover, or I am on certain medication (even just some painkillers don't go well with alcohol), or just not liking alcohol, or having to drive soon. Possibly the girl never knew any alcoholic person and simply didn't understand. And when she tried to sympathize with you, you acted even more like a jerk. Sorry, but you just don't understand anything about women, red pill or not.

[–]Hector_Castillo-1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Brother, that was fucking brilliant. You got game, you're funny as shit, and you write well (these cucks expect forum posts to be perfectly ordered; they spend too much time on the internet).

Also, it's very obvious you're a natural (or a really, really clever sociopath...both? Sociopaths have stupid good game).

Anyone here critiquing you or bashing you is probably a virgin parading around as a keyboard-Alpha. Hardcore communities like these tend to produce zealots who believe they pray and conduct ritual perfectly but are too stupid to understand what Jesus meant by, "It's not what goes in but what goes out that defiles."

If you'd like, we could use writers like you at Girlschase.com. I can't guarantee you get published but I think Chase (da boss) would dig you. Naturals who can write are as rare a nerdy girl in LA. Send me a PM if you're interested.

Nevertheless, this was fucking amazing. Favorite FR on this subreddit so far.

[–]Pepe_Waifu2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Why are there a thousand grammatical errors on your website...lol

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks man, will check out Girlschase.

As for the "natural" thing--that was definitely NOT me. I was absolutely the nerdy / geeky kid for quite a while growing up--it wasn't until I discovered booze in my late teens that I blossomed into something of a rock star, my N-count skyrocketed but it was the drinks, really, providing all the horsepower. Once I quit drinking several years ago it was like taking a time machine right back to my teenage nerdy / geeky self, had to learn to deal with women all over again (dead sober).

Fortunately around the same time I picked up a writing project, a biopic about a famous bodybuilder / weightlifter, guy became kind of a mentor for me. Got into lifting hard and heavy (still lifting of course, 3 times week, going on 6 years now). Channeled my OCD tendencies into cracking the dating scene (sober), went on lots of dates, took lots of notes. Adjusted my game every day. Came to some rather startling conclusions. And then, of course, I found TRP, and everything I discovered on my own was immediately verified. Talk about a revelation, it was like Wow, so I'm not the only one who sees this...

But yeah, it's been quite journey. I think the "natural" thing comes eventually (right around the time you get all fucked out and just don't care anymore, I think that happened to me right around the 100 mark), it's a reflection of just a stupid number of hours put in, to the point where you don't even think about it anymore, it's just automatic. But even then, sometimes you're hit with an unfamiliar situation, a new playing field, and thrown off balance. Even the pros still drop the ball all the time.

[–]Hector_Castillo0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Dope.

And that's exactly what a natural is by our definition. Only some naturals start at younger ages, like 13. Most of them actually turn out mediocre because they lose their drive and wife up some high school sweetheart, while a few others turn into absolute monsters and have triple digit lay counts by their early 20's. The point is, you didn't go full PUA and learn pickup from bootcamps or online videos, or at least that's what it sounds like. You got drunk and talked to girls, learning the "natural way" (observation, attempt, result, review, etc). A natural philosopher vs a scientist, to put it another way ( e.g., I didn't find the PUA community until 21, 3 years after learning about girls on my own; started at 18 from a combination of "damn, I'm about to go to college and am still a virgin; time to do something" and alcohol).

As for the reset phase with sobriety, yep, did that, too. Because of a buddhism class I went sober 4 months and was like "oh, this is different," then the next semester, I went absolutely balls to the wall. Then had a sober year after doing Ayahuasca in 2015; that was a revolutionary year.

Everything about your biopic sounds hella inspirational and exactly what we think of when thinking of a natural. What's really cool about naturals, too, is they have their own language (whereas PUA guys and Red Pill guys just regurgitate their catch phrases) and they underwent more difficult educations than guys who are introduced to websites like ours, so it's a wake-up call ("hey, I did this pretty much on my own" - for instance I didn't have a mentor until Chase, unless you count Tucker Max's books - so it helps us eliminate some victim mentality).

But yeah man, your story checks out. Definitely think our readers would love some pieces from you.

[–]bench2500 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'll keep this in mind if I ever get a date lmao

[–]Asbestasio0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

man addictions are the worst bitches. i don't know sometimes i feel like it would be best just to be blunt about it, sometimes i don't.

[–]wallywoocow0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good for you for dropping the alcohol! What is think is even worse about your dates assumptions is that some some people like myself never have drunken and choose to be sober out of principal or for religious reasons. This makes her assumption that you and others that refuse alcohol have a problem further ignorant.

[–]1z1z2x2x3c3c4v4v0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

On the way out, now standing on the sidewalk, she says "So where to now?" Translation: "Take me back to your place and fuck me."

AH...OK. Wouldn't a nice no-strings fuck make it all better?

[–]otistoole0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No one stops drinking forever CASUALLY. It is always, ALWAYS a very big fucking decision, and when one makes that decision, it is inevitably because either something very bad happened, or the person knew something very bad was about to happen, and so said person made the decision to get the fuck out while they still could, and that's all there is to it.

This, right here? Not true.

Of course, nobody's perfect and I was almost ready to chalk it up as an honest mistake and then I read this:

she doesn't understand my world

You aren't one of those 'sobriety junkies', are you? Because nothing is more insufferable and annoying than a 'recovering addict'.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

deleted What is this?

[–]Bucky_Goldstein0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

"never be afraid to quit reading a multi-page post after OP embellishes the events of a single date" should have been the title of this

And why not make a reservation anyways, why trust that whoever told you about not neeeding reservations was right? Always make a reservation, then you get to walk right past all the other chumps waiting in line to go your table

[–]bcool470 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Great writing dude. I've experienced some bad dates too as a result of not sticking with the plan and choosing the venue etc. Gotta disagree with you about L.A. though. Been out here since undergrad and have found plenty of smart women. I guess I'm lucky to already have my social circle from my college network etc, but my online profile really reels them in too. Why are you using OK Cupid? Hinge and Bumble is where it's at for these types of women. Average about 2-3 dates/wk with mostly cool chicks. To be sure though I do even better on the East Coast. But they're out here in L.A. too.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I think I'm done with OKC, it really is the dinosaur of the dating scene. I just liked it because it let me read a bit more about the girls, and I usually found that girls who wrote more and wrote well ended up being better dates.

We're in an app / pic-based dating environment now though for sure. Doesn't bode well re: "my quest for the smart educated LA girl" but who knows, maybe there's one out there.

[–]Stythe0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree with upholding your standards and being willing to walk out, but you let go of yours throughout the whole date, were seething at the alcohol comment (and she had a point with what information you gave her. If you never had a problem, then you should be able to moderate even if you choose not to) and then you let yourself build up frustration within yourself until you blew up, which could have happened even without the comment she made.

She doesn't sound like bright bulb to me, but she was probably confused. That or she just wanted dick. Either way you should have controlled the situation better, as you said.

Entertaining read though.

[–]AllahHatesFags0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Interesting story, a failed date in the city of failure! A few observations:

  • She was 40 lbs heavier in person? That is a lot of weight, and the difference between healthy and obese for most. Maybe you are into heavy chicks, but if you aren't physically attracted to her, why waste your time?

  • Your tee-totaling lifestyle is incompatible with many people. I understand you have your reasons, but if you won't drink you should have met her for coffee or did something outdoors instead of going to a restaurant for dinner in LA. Not drinking at a dinner when others are drinking makes them uncomfortable and comes across as creepy.

  • It would have been epic if you had left her with the bill.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My usual go-to first date spot is much more compatible with not drinking (just grabbing coffee etc). That having been said, I've been on quite a few dates that started at wine bars (or the like), and it's never been a problem. True, a lot of women, once they see you don't drink, get instantly turned off, the date is DOA, there's basically no way to recover (because they want to get buzzed before they fuck you, and if they don't get their buzz on first they can't do it, the dating process is too foreign, awkward, embarrassing, and scary for them without the crutch of booze, they haven't learned to do it sober). But even then it's like "Oh, look at the time, I gotta go...!!" And that's that.

This was just one (unusual) case where the girl knew I was sober going in, and then really pushed on it to see what was up. Which I was fine with, I slid around the attack, it wasn't until the end when she was shouting at me about what a horrible person I was for not treating her right that, well, I responded in kind. Not exactly a Jesus moment for sure. But hey, we all live and learn.

Truth is though MOST of the time, even if you're a non-drinker, you're fine meeting a woman at a drinking place. Sometimes they're cool with you not drinking, and you get laid, and then you keep seeing them. Other times they're cool with you not drinking, you hook up, but then you never see them again (because they don't want to make a regular thing of dating a non-drinker, this is probably the most common response, and I totally get it, I was the exact same way when I drank). Other times, the girl's like "Um, no"--and off she goes. I'm totally clear about my non-drinking up front (before the meet) but sometimes it doesn't actually sink in until you're right there. But even then they're usually polite--they hang out for 20 or 30 min, "Oops I gotta go!" and off they run. Also totally fine.

[–]CCIG20 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

FWIW you're one of my saved posters since I'm thinking about moving to Brooklyn soon. I also thought that the Goldmund story was pretty cartoonish.

I lived in LA for a few years, and while there I dated a lot of smart, pretty, artsy girls. That type's not rare in LA, but you gotta know where to look.

I found these girls at underground events, art shows, gallery openings, afterparties-- my pickup line was: eye contact, walk up to them and go "Hey I'm ____" while shaking their hand. A straight guy who lifts and is somewhat masculine was a rarity at the places I'd go to.

I think maybe your insistence on hanging out in Hollywood proper freaks them out a bit because there are a lot of douchebaggy negative connotations associated with Hollywood. And with a dude who would rather hang out in a crowded Hollywood bar instead of -- really the million other places you can hang out in LA. Girls who like Talk to Her and Tarkovksy are allergic to Hollywood.

The artsy girls were concentrated in Los Feliz, Highland Park, Echo Park, Abbott Kinney in Venice, East Hollywood, places like that. They frequent those bars and cafes. Maybe a shift in your hunting grounds will help make the process a bit more efficient. Gallery openings instead of apps, underground shows instead of nightclubs. I ditched the apps completely in LA... it really doesn't make sense to be staring at a screen while you come across hot girls all the time in real life.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Brooklyn's great for sure. I only found myself over there a few times during the 12 years I lived in NYC but everyone I knew / know over there loves it. In fact a friend of mine who I met right after I moved to LA was on his way to NYC, we were lamenting the lack of quality women in LA (and the skewed guy to girl ratio, 2 guys to every 1 girl out here), I assured him "Trust me man, when you head to NYC, it's totally flipped, you'll have to beat them away with a stick", guy didn't really believe me, and then sure enough, his first night in Brooklyn, he's standing outside a bar (sober, like me, he was just hanging out) when a girl cold approached HIM, they started chatting, and they went back to her place nearby like 10 min later (and hooked up later that night). Guy emailed me a few days later, THRILLED with the Brooklyn dating scene (I think he picked up like 3 plates in one week or whatever). So yeah, if you're relocating there soon, you're gonna love it for sure.

As for switching up the hunting ground, I agree, that may be the way to go. Online is pretty much played out here (whether it be website or app), I love my neighborhood (it's the most NYC-esque part of LA, I think), but quality women are just VERY few and far between. I've had more than one friend suggest going east or west, problem is when I go east they get too hipster-y for me, and when I go west, they get too New Age-y!! So who knows.

Think it's really about social circle game going forward (at least here in LA), problem is most of the guys I know my age (creative professionals) are settled with young kids (I'm 41), and most of the girls I know are a bit younger (20s) and still into the club scene and all that. I don't really fit into either of those buckets (nor do I want to) so I think for me the trick might be finding some sort of community I can really get into, build a foundation from there and then spread out, meet some good people, see what happens.

[–]CCIG21 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Oh yeah man, get off all the apps. There are some cute and normal girls on there, but in the process of finding them you are exposed to the absolute worst women. In my social circles it was only the absolute cunts who stay on Tinder. These girls are vampires with no life force of their own, so they have to suck it out of other people. The more 'normal,' warm, funny, pretty girls would meet dudes when they are out and about.

If you don't have approach anxiety, just stick to real life. It's better for your spirit. Much of your post deals with the annoyance at not being in control, but in all cases of online dating you aren't in control just by virtue of her having 1000+ matches. Male dominance is an attraction cue in women, but guess what--you have no way of showing any kind of dominance on an app unless you are visually out of her league.

[–]Barvazon0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't be so defensive from the get go man. I had the sense not asking my dates why they don't drink alcohol but if I had asked hypothetically it wouldn't be in a blaming manner. Just interesting and part of getting to know that person.

She did push it too much though, that's for sure, but you should be able to deal with it better. You don't have to let people cross your boundaries like that. "I would rather not discuss about it". " it's part of my mysterious past, you'll have to work hard for it".

She had the frame and you felt interrogated, because you didn't shut that shit down and stood up to your boundaries (like I mentioned there are many ways to do it, some are harsh some are smooth).

Read No More Mr Nice Guy.

[–]Dragon_Garoo0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I love how women lose their shit when you call them on theirs, and immediately go to "You treat me/all women like shit." And so do the BP fucking white knights that have all been trained by our shitty gynocentric society. Girl I just nexted for breaking my rules, did the same via dozens of text. I got sucked in and answered a few, but in the end, she just sent a string of diatribes, and even outlined some EXTRA things she did to treat me badly, all the time somehow trying to make it seem like it was my fault.

More of us need to do the advised: Get up and walk away. Ignore. Etc.

Also concur about the no-drinking proper response: Met a girl I may plate, she mentioned that if we go for drinks, she doesn't drink, and I responded with 'awesome, that's cool!' and just went on to talk about the date (never happened, we both had to bail).

No rudeness. No loss. No nothing.

I would have killed to see you bitch her out though. Loss of frame or not, that musta felt awesome.

[–]shonthered0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm glad you pointed out the intention which most of FRs on TRP are being written with, good observation.

This was a quality post, but I do agree with the commentators who noticed you lost frame when questioned about your NOT drinking, so I'd suggest you work on holding frame on that topic.

[–]murrjr990 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

Ok, so I get the idea of choosing the venue, but what if you are visiting their city and you have no knowledge of good places and they suggest going to places near their home? Going on a date in a few days and I've been given 2 suggestions. If I pick one and set the time to meet is that still workable?

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

If you're in a new city and don't yet have the lay of the land, I'd absolutely scout ahead first, check out the venues and see what's what. The last thing you want is to agree to a date (at a venue of her choosing), and then show up only to find out the place is loud, crowded, too brightly lit, you can't get a table, there's no seating at the bar, you have to wait forever for drinks, etc etc. LOT of variables to account for, and if any one of them is off it can really kill the vibe.

Looking back on all my dates, I'm not sure I've ever actually had a good one wherein the girl suggested the spot (a place I didn't know), and then I showed up and somehow it all worked out. Every time the evening went smoothly it was always because I picked the venue, knew the scene well, and had everything accounted for well in advance. Definitely recommend you do the same. BUT, if for some reason you just don't have time to get out and do a little infield research before the big date, doesn't mean it's DOA, just hop online, do all the remote research you can, show up, and hope for the best. Worst case scenario you bounce her back outside and find a different location--or, even better, if the scene really isn't all that you can always hit her with "Damn, it really is kind of loud / crowded / etc in here, why don't we head back to yours?" In that case the bad venue might even work in your favor.

[–]murrjr990 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yeah see this is a bit different as it's London so it's fucking huge. I used to live thete but completely the opposite end to where she is. To be fair I have actually been on dates where girls have picked good spots close to theirs. I mean surely it's in their best interests to pick somewhere good if they have any investment in it at all?

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

I mean surely it's in their best interests to pick somewhere good if they have any investment in it at all?

Hah hah you'd think so wouldn't you. I think for women though it's more about 1) physical proximity to their place (so they don't have to travel as far, obviously), and 2) going to wherever the maximum number of people are at any given time.

Number 1 I totally get, I like planning dates right next to my place so that, if things go well, the bounce is an effortless 5 minute walk back to mine. Number 2 though, yeah, in my experience, you really don't want to go to the newest, trendiest hotspot where ALL the people are, best first date venue for me is a cool place that's maybe about half full, no more than that (otherwise you're dealing with crowds, loudness, poor service etc).

Yeah London's a big place (I lived there for a bit about 20 years ago, in the mid 90s, wonder how much it's changed since), as I recall the scene really does vary depending on the neighborhood. But like I said if you don't have time to physically scout ahead and pick a good spot do the best you can over the Internet, show up, and see what happens. If her spot sucks do NOT stay there, however (!!), bounce her out ASAP and take a little walking tour, find a better place nearby.

[–]murrjr990 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Fair play. Will give it a shot. Completely new to red pill but I've just started putting this advice into practice and have managed to set up a date with a girl I've been after for years. Magic stuff this.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

That's awesome to hear man, best of luck. We're all rooting for you.

[–]murrjr990 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hopefully I'll end up rooting her too. Ta.

[–]murrjr990 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Got a kiss and she paid for the date. Could have been a lot worse.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not bad at all for a first date. Follow up for the second and you should be able to close the deal.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Notice how she was ready to fuck and she says "you barely looked at me all night" ? See how OI and negging can make her DTF?

[–]OutrageousSalmon0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't drink because I don't want to. that's it. no big deal

[–]Spillyaguts0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The only women you will attract by following redpill teachings is insecure women with low self esteem that will reinforce your redpill beliefs. No intelligent or kind women would fall for redpill tatics. Secondly it's funny how most people on here talk about not putting women on a pedestal and setting boundaries yet spend all day posting angrily about women on this sub.

[–]Pogodick8in690 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Bro if you don't drink cool but don't be taking sit down dates to wine bars.

[–]Redpillandrew0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think you made quite a fuss out of this. I mean, the girl is quite annoying but, like you said right, she doesn't know any better. Frankly I envy you a bit for how you manage to enforce your boundaries to that extent and throw away pussy like it's - and it is - just a commodity. But then again, what's that all about? You sound so butthurt, and she was just waiting for you to fuck her at your place, I assume as well. You could have just pumped and dumped her.

I just broke Rule #1: NEVER TALK WITH A GIRL ON THE PHONE BEFORE THE FIRST DATE

My thought on the matter: I'm new to redpill, but not to dating life as a bluepilled guy. I read that iron rule of yours and I think i disagree. Actually, I think the phone call helps building connection and comfort where needed, like "aaaw I kinda know this guy, I heard his voice and listened to his funny tales, I can go on a date with him", especially if you are dating much lower and she's not at complete ease with your cocky attitude. I tell you, I remember dates where she was super into me and once we ended fucking in the cinema's toilet: I think the phone calls did their work sometimes. Everybody, feel free to point out where i might be wrong

[–]DeathToTheZog0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Or.. Grin and placate the cunt. Order all the best shit. Make sure you drink a lot, or look like you do. Towards the end, when you are nice and stuffed on lobster tail, go take a piss, and dart out the restaurant.

[–]Landry860 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Can I just start by saying this really made me laugh? Not that it's funny (it's sad- the situation is- and it's all too common). All I'm saying is you're an entertaining writer.

Honestly? From a red pill girl's perspective, I would have stopped at her suggesting a place. I am a very feminine, passive woman and I tend to be VERY polite when dating. If a man suggested a place for me, I would feel rude suggesting a different one unless he asked me for my opinion.

I keep hearing stories over and over again about how challenging it is to date in L.A. You must be frustrated and I'm sorry you have to deal with that. It's such a big city though so I'm sure there must be a better "unicorn" somewhere over there. After all, you are somewhat of a unicorn yourself if you think about it: an RPG in a liberal city... so why can't there be two?

About the catfishing... there are so many girls I know personally that do an amazing job covering flaws on social media. This one particular girl I'm thinking of looks 30 lb. lighter in every one of her photos and I can't figure out how she even does it. Pretty girls shouldn't need filters or even makeup. All those things are nothing more than a mean, false advertisement; a complete waste of everyone's time. It isn't fair to the men they are fooling and it's definitely not fair to the healthy, feminine women who look the same in their photos as in real life.

Finally, I must say, I can TOTALLY RELATE to the not drinking thing. I'm not a recovering alcoholic, but I don't like it for the calories and dehydration. Also, it's just sloppy and gross when women get drunk. Sure, I sip on something every once and a while and I do like to go out with my friends but I'm done after the first or second beverage. So when a guy asks me if I'd like something to drink and I let him know I'm finished for the night (but he can have my time anyway) it turns into a 30 minute conversation about why I don't drink. But keep in mind that when someone says "Why don't you drink?" what they're really saying is "Why aren't you boring like me? Why don't you lack social skills like I do? How come you're not addicted to this ridiculous substance like everyone else?"

Thank you for putting her in her place at the end of the date. Who knows, maybe she learned a lesson about how to behave. This woman sums up just about every American girl. But because of men like you, there's hope for some kind of change

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Glad you liked it, I definitely found it both funny AND sad, all at once (when it happened I was pretty upset that I'd managed to find my way into such a magnificent clusterfuck like that, but with a little distance, I managed to find the humor in it all as well).

You're correct in that I should have stopped (or redirected) when she suggested the new place--that's definitely something to do AFTER the two of you have gotten to know one another, hooked up a few times, are something of a regular item etc. Me, I was just finding myself a little more bored than usual, and a little more prone to bending (or breaking) my rules in this case (because I thought I'd found such an oh-so-special girl), so when she suggested the new hotspot it was like "Of course!! Let's try it, I'm sure she knows what she's talking about..." The proper response, if my head was a little bit more in the game at the time, would have been "Hey, that sounds great, why don't we save that one for the second date?" (or whatever), and then just brought her to my usual first date spot (where I know the scene extremely well and can guarantee a good vibe and a good outcome).

Funny story for you: you know that thing where, if you don't learn the lesson the first time, the universe keeps throwing the exact same problem at you (until you finally get it), and it gets just a little bit harder each time? (I think Jung talked about this.)

So like just a few days after this date happened, I was on Tinder (not my usual scene but I check it every once in a while), matched a beautiful, modelesque woman (or so she seemed from her pics), we start chatting, turns out SHE JUST HAD A BOOK PUBLISHED!! (I checked it out, yep, real book.) I'm like wait a sec, a beautiful, modelesque woman, who also writes books?? (And she's SINGLE and living in LA??) ANOTHER UNICORN, LESS THAN A WEEK LATER?? What the...??

So we text back and forth a few times, finally I'm like "Get together?" She says "Sure, when and where" (clearly leaving it entirely open to me). So I suggest (rightfully, this time) my usual first date spot here in Hollywood (I build it up a bit, talk about how it's right in the middle of everything, we can start there and then walk to all kinds of awesome hotspots, hotel rooftops etc in the neighborhood), and then she comes back with "I don't want to leave Beverly Hills." I actually stared at the screen, flabbergasted, like Oh my God, it's the SAME girl, the SAME situation, just in a slightly different guise / body!! Like, wow, what are the odds.

So I just laughed and wrote back "Hope your book does well, best of luck in your search" and cut her off.

Like I said above, if you're gettin' pushback before you even meet, it ain't gonna get any better once you get together in person...

[–]Landry860 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Jeez... the frequency of all these cat-fishing occurrences sure makes me feel lucky for being a girl. We certainly don't have the same problem. Guys pretty much look the same in their pictures

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What a story ! When she asked "why don't you drink?" I would've simply answered "I don't like being intoxicated, I love having my mind clear all the time". Put some shame on her with that answer.

[–]dingman58-5 points-4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good post. Fuck the haters. Do you.

[–]wanderer779-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Instead of doing all that you should have just said, "how about we go to my place for a drink?" She'll either say ok or no. Or she'll say, "I thought you didn't drink" at which point you just do a chuckle or wink or something and she'll know the deal.

[–]simplisticallysimple2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

In fact, he should have done that right from the start. Why is he rewarding girls he hasn't banged yet with a full-blown date? "Slept with hundreds" my ass!

[–]ArthurTheAstronaut-5 points-4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Best FR I've read thus far. Thank you kindly for your effort. I learned a lot from this.

Edit: Downvotes? I will never fucking understand you, Reddit.

[–]flamethrowup-5 points-4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Don't listen to the naysayers; this was an excellent post. Something similar happened to me a month ago where I let a crazy girl cross a line because she made it plain she was down to fuck. Though it sucks I didn't end up sleeping with her, I understand that was entirely beyond my control. What I really regret, though, is not warning her then cutting off contact when she disrespected me because she was hotter than any girl I've ever met. Never again. Self-respect and self-ownership is always more important than sex.

[–]IGoYouStayTwoAutumns[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What I really regret, though, is not warning her then cutting off contact when she disrespected me because she was hotter than any girl I've ever met.

Sounds like you might have a pretty amazing field report right here. Something we could all learn from. Consider posting, I'd love to read it.

[–]falecf4-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Decent story but the ending could've been better.

Instead of "I'm sorry to hear that. It was nice to meet you."

It should have been "That sucks. I'd say 'nice to meet you' but it wasn't. Bye Felicia!"

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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