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What are the prerequisites to start seeking marriage? (self.askRPC)

submitted by OrlandoTheAxe

A man who cannot lead himself will also not be able to lead a woman. If you are going to set sail in a marriage, there are some basic things you need to be able to do to run the ship. Our society has too many drunk captains, who ignore this fact and end up in divorce.

 

My question is: What are the prerequisites (performance metrics) that a man needs to meet before seeking marriage?

 

SOME CAVEATS TO CLARIFY THE QUESTION

  • YMMV I don't expect the forum to define exactly where the line is, but I think we can all acknowledge the fact that there is a line (even if it is somewhat subjective). Stats matter; that's why Rule 2 exists. I'm seeking a way equip the romantically impaired folks (me) with a way to approximate for themselves where the lines are.

 

  • Prerequisites can easily be misconstrued into a Toolbox Fallacy. This fallacy creates artificial prerequisites to an action as a form of procrastination. It is the false belief that you cannot start an action until you have some nebulous item in your metaphorical toolkit.

 

  • Dating before you're ready shrinks your dating pool. Once someone develops a paradigm of who you are, it takes a lot of work to change that paradigm. Failures in dating create negative paradigms, not just with the girl you date, but with her social group as well.

 

  • There is a balance between gaining experience and burning through your dating pool. Experience is important, but you have to make it count.

 

If there's a vetting process for potential spouses, there's a vetting process for you too.


[–]UpTanks5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What are the prerequisites (performance metrics) that a man needs to meet before seeking marriage?

We are all different and there won't ever be a perfect step-by-step process/list that we can all implement and get the same results from. So these in my opinion are some very broad boxes I would highly recommend for men to tick (or be in the process of ticking) before pursuing a marriage:

  • Can confidently say that they are saved and explain/defend the gospel to a reasonable extent
    • Growing Christian
    • Basic apologetics
  • Mission driven and purposeful:
    • Is known for their faithful service
    • Known for their drive to achieve
    • Disciple-maker -> or another role pertaining to this (such as evangelism, serving, preaching etc)
  • Exercises and reads Bible regularly
    • Continuing physical and spiritual development
  • Stable income, or on a clear path towards one
    • Wise financial decision-maker
  • Has read the sidebar and most of the recommended books, revisits them
  • Engagement with community of other men (Church, sport, mates etc)
    • Continuing mental/emotional development

[–]IsAllThisReal2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

The concept of being 'prepared for marriage' or waiting until some metrics are met before pursuing marriage are very modern concepts. My grandparent were married at 16, my grandfather was a laborer. They were married until he died of black lung after working as a coal miner. Marriages were arranged by the parents often when the children were under 12 years old. 18-21 was the common marriage age for men and women, and most of them had nothing and had achieved nothing at that point. They lived simply and were content with what they had. And most of them ended up married for life. This was the case for who knows how many generations. The common factor was that they had a rich community united in their beliefs and values. Most of them didn't know an ounce of scripture, maybe couldn't even read.

You don't need to be X level of spiritual or Y level of economically successful. You should be able to provide for yourself, and have a plan for providing for a family. You should have self-control, and be willing to take on the responsibility of a wife.

Failure in dating is expected and healthy. If you never ended or said 'no' to a relationship, does that mean you immediately found the perfect person, or that you don't actually have standards? Unfortunately much of what you learn about someone is discovered after you begin pursuing a serious relationship, even with solid vetting. People do not like to see flaws in attractive women. The old quote "For every hot girl, there is a guy who is tired of putting up with her crap" is very true.

You should be dating women with the intent of marrying them, but have the discernment to determine if they are marriage material. As far as what marriage material means, that is different for every girl and usually distorted by a culture sick with consumerism, vapid shallowness, and disney-instagram fantasies. If there were a standard for these kinds of things, would you work until you achieved that standard, and then stop? No, you should strive to become the best version of yourself in all areas, all the time.

So I guess my answer is, the standards for a successful marriage are not about metrics, and even if the metrics existed, why would they matter? You should not improve more or less dependent on some arbitrary standard.

[–]OrlandoTheAxe[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

They lived simply and were content with what they had. And most of them ended up married for life.

This has become quite rare in our degenerate, feminized western society, which is probably much different than the conservative, culturally homogeneous society you described. Please correct me if that isn't a fair assumption. Feminism has become the rule and exceptions are evermore rare. Even the so called "Christian" communities are infected.

 

Failure in dating is expected and healthy.

Agreed, but not when you have a limited supply of dateable women. The town I live in has so few eligible women, it's a meme. The number of potential mates for me drops even lower when you consider what is in my league. I can't just burn through that irresponsibly.

 

If there were a standard for these kinds of things, would you work until you achieved that standard, and then stop? No, you should strive to become the best version of yourself in all areas, all the time.

even if the metrics existed, why would they matter?

Metrics matter because they define a starting point. You cannot sell people garbage (and even if you can it's wrong to do so). There has to be scale we can judge ourselves by, so we know when we're marriage material.

You are correct that performance metrics shouldn't alter the rate at which you approach the starting point or how far you go afterward. Many men have been undone by complacency. But, there needs to be a point at which I can confidently market myself without doing my dating pool and myself a disservice.

[–]IsAllThisReal1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This has become quite rare in our degenerate, feminized western society,

Any woman you date will need to 'unlearn' things she was told by her friends, parents, the internet, etc. Its valuable for you to teach her those things. To convince her that less is more, that physical things are far less valuable than spiritual things. Thats a big part of her accepting your leadership and allowing her values to align to yours.

Agreed, but not when you have a limited supply of dateable women.

You're operating from a scarcity mindset, from a mindset that will make you fearful of making mistakes, fearful of 'screwing it up' with a potential spouse. This is not a good way to approach that situation. Women are constantly coming in and out of your town, new batches every summer. 'Someday is a dangerous word' to quote redpillwonder. If you never try, you'll never fail, and if you never fail, you'll never improve. Don't operate out of fear "Oh I won't be good enough, I'll screw I up and be alone forever with no options". No, you are already enough. You have a desire to submit to the word. You are a co-heir with Christ. Not only that you understand rp concepts and are eager to improve. You're smart, talented and willing to work hard. Millions, maybe billions of marriages have succeeded with far, far less. Stop being self-deprecating, its counterproductive and un-masculine.

There has to be scale we can judge ourselves by, so we know when we're marriage material.

You're not hearing me here.There is no objective metric. The metric does not exist because it is subjective, and ultimately not at all predictive of success or failure in a marriage, therefore pointless. For my grandmother, it was a set of testicles and a shared faith. For a 9/10 gigastacy its a 6'5 ripped chad or a guy with $100m. Which metric is the right one? None of them, they're arbitrary and change from person to person. My dad was a degenerate and my mom was a good catholic girl with a college degree in math. There was no qualifying criteria my dad met.

I understand that you want performance standards. Then you can calibrate yourself against those standards and determine an objective value or net worth. Thats one reason I love lifting weights so much. Objective, measurable, concrete goals. But what would you do if the standard is a 300lb bench press? How about making $200k/yr? For some women that might be their standard. For other's its a set of testicles and a shared faith.

[–]OrlandoTheAxe[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Its valuable for you to teach her those things

You can't teach when you aren't respectable. Should I sign up for that if I'm not fit for duty?

 

You're operating from a scarcity mindset, from a mindset that will make you fearful of making mistakes, fearful of 'screwing it up' with a potential spouse. This is not a good way to approach that situation.

What if I told you I had a identical twin brother who was going out and approaching and getting exactly the rejections I would expect for myself? If I had that level of certainty, would I not be right in saying that something needs to change before I can experience success?

Reality is scarcity for the low value male. You wouldn't tell a poor guy to go buy a jetski on credit because you think he can develop the financial fitness to pay it off before he defaults on the loan.

 

If you never try, you'll never fail, and if you never fail, you'll never improve.

You're right, but I have to build the foundation before I can start setting up the roof! Maybe that's a toolbox fallacy, but I have good reason to expect that rejection is all that I will encounter in my current state of being.

 

There is no objective metric. The metric does not exist because it is subjective, and ultimately not at all predictive of success or failure in a marriage, therefore pointless.

I tried to acknowledge that in the first bullet point of my post. I say the subjectivity just adds error bars to the metric, instead of completely invalidating it. I think it's possible for us to draw a set of metrics while still acknowledging the error bars. Here's an example:

Bad Metric: (ignores subjectivity) Hold a leadership position in your workplace for a minimum of 1 year.

  • Too narrow.

  • Ignores that people learn at different rates.

Good Metric: Demonstrate the ability to lead others in some capacity.

  • Leadership is a key part of a marriage. Everyone here will agree on that.

  • Any experience will fit as long as the reader can look back and say "yes, I can lead others."

  • It's a guideline for a self-assessment, not a hard objective number.

I agree that the metrics we select may not predict long term marriage success, but I'd argue that they have significant effects on dating success and not getting rejected.

 

For other's its a set of testicles and a shared faith.

I have yet to witness this. The girls in my year at the church I grew up in were so uninterested in the guys that they were basically a separate class.

Potential is meaningless without results. I can't expect success just because I'm rp aware and Christ aware.

[–]IsAllThisReal1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You can't teach when you aren't respectable.

Why are you so sure she won't respect you? Respect is earned in many different ways. Most women have no real values other than the ones they adopt from their social circles, so I can see why you would think this. Often they respect violent, evil men who abuse their power, and dont respect good men. So being a good man, even, is no guarantee of respect.

What if I told you I had a identical twin brother who was going out and approaching and getting exactly the rejections I would expect for myself? If I had that level of certainty, would I not be right in saying that something needs to change before I can experience success?

I'll think about this more, but I think there is value in rejection. You lose fear of it, you learn to be comfortable with it. Sometimes you learn from your mistakes.

scarcity

Scarcity is a real issue, but if the thought of it paralyzes you into inaction, you've already lost.

I have to build the foundation

It seems like you're trying to identify that foundation, but I think you're conceptualizing it the wrong way. You're basically asking 'what is the base level of looks, status, and spiritual growth I need to be 'good enough' to find a wife', but it just doesn't work that way. If you really want an answer from me, I would say looksMAX, statusMAX, spiritualgrowthMAX, and in the meantime keep an eye out for a girl you are interested in. They don't have to be mutually exclusive, you don't have to go into 'monk mode' until you grind your character to level 37. You can start right now building yourself up, and at the same time you can start talking to women. If you're so sure you will fail, it doesn't have to be romantic at all. Just be friendly with the women in your office. Be friendly with the women at church. Its essential that you get experience talking to women, so that when you feel you are ready, which I think is the real issue here, you will be able to talk to them naturally and present yourself well.

I think we would both agree that 6'5 gigachad doesn't even need to say any words at all, and 5'2 balding indian janitor cannot say any words that will make a difference, but for the majority of men, basic experience with women is essential. You can't EVER think of a woman as 'your only chance', thats one of the most sure-fire ways to ensure you fail.

My final statement for you is that you need to stop telling yourself that you are not good enough. If nothing else, phrase it as a statement of purpose and will: "I will be good enough". You're my brother in Christ, and I would kick the ass of anyone talking badly of my brother.

[–]PositiveMaleGuidance0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

There are several, but I'm just going to emphasize this one point:

"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." - 1 Timothy 5:8

If you can't provide enough so that your wife doesn't have to work, you start losing some serious perks like a well kept home and well educated and moralized children.

The liberals want to formulate society so that your children are raised by the state, you don't have a stable living situation, and your wife finds a nice boyfriend at her full time job.

Be a top 3-5% man financially so you can rise above.

[–]IsAllThisReal1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Financial stability is obviously a good thing, but it is completely unnecessary, often counter-productive, and can very quickly become idolatry. We need so much less than we think we do to be happy. My grandparents both had 6+ siblings, all married 40+ years and they were all dirt poor. The only reason finances are so important in today's world is that we have an expectation of an incredibly lavish life of excess and comfort not conceived of by past generations. Women are often the propagators of this, demanding a certain house or clothing or appliance, but men are often just as bad, with absurd toys filling their 3 car garage and a 70" tv in their 'football' room cluttered with expensive, pointless sports memorabilia. Or even worse, video games and super hero toys.

Every minute spend clawing your way into positions of higher and higher pay is USUALLY a minute spent not guiding, teaching, and loving your wife and children. I grew up very poor, I never had a bicycle, a cell phone, never went on vacation, never even left the country, or even had new clothing. But I had a rich sense of love and care from my parents and relatives, and I would not trade a minute of it for more money.

[–]PositiveMaleGuidance0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're totally and completely right on every note. That being said, I have a slightly different mindset.

The harder I work and the more revenue I generate, the more resources I'm going to have to further the kingdom of God.

"It takes money to make money" is a true statement. I'd like to be able to write a huge check some day that builds a church in a remote region or lifts a village out of poverty.

[–]redwall92-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Looking to a wife to provide things like a well-kept home or well-educated/moralized children as a perk of providing enough money is BP at the core.

If your main reasoning behind keeping your wife at home is so she doesn't find a nice boyfriend at her job, then is she really attracted to you that much while she's at home?

[–]Flat_Doughnut1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

As man provides for women (hypergamy) so do women nurture and provide for children He is just telling facts of what happens to most women if you don’t provide enough stability structure and prosperous environment for everyone to be well off, especially children. If a woman wants to be a career woman, fine, we are not tyrannical l; this should be one of the filters you might want to have. Because if the focus is on career children grow malnourished. You can’t have your cake and eat it too, only on very rare occasions. Also if man’s responsibility is being shared then man’s authority is divided and the more she becomes the provider the less she’s attracted to you as a man, so you have a woman who’s neglecting the children and in competition against you to overthrow you and more likely to cheat on you for not meeting criteria. It’s not about tyrannically subjugating women to the kitchen just save them from their own societal brain washing and prepare for the unforeseen. No woman doctors want to marry plumbers, you do have men doctors who don’t mind marrying waitresses. Love is all fine and dandy but it’s hard to love a man who is crushed morally physically and spiritually by today’s feminist and political agenda, the state doesn’t want your well being. do you even redpill?

[–]PositiveMaleGuidance0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Lmao

Read this recent post and then tell me you still think keeping women at home is "blue pilled."

[–]redwall920 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

If your goal in keeping your wife at home is to prevent her from becoming attracted to another man (more than she's attracted to you), then I believe your standards are low.

Keeping a woman away from other men in hopes she stays attracted to you or stays married to you is textbook mate-guarding.

[–]Rifleshoot1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think both of your are correct. If your primary reason for keeping your wife at home is to keep her from other men, it shows a horrible insecurity for your own value. However, I think there are definite benefits to having your wife stay at home with the kids. A well kept home, well adjusted kids, and a happy wife are not nothing. Most women are simply happier without the stress of a job, and homeschooled kids statistically do better than their peers, given the one on one treatment.

[–]PositiveMaleGuidance0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's not about keeping her away from other men. It's about keeping her in the role that God intended for her to be in. And God says that women are supposed to be keepers of the home.

Women are the weaker vessel. We shouldn't be sending our wives to work and our daughters to college to suffer an endless barrage of temptation that they are not equipped to handle.

Instead, we should do what God tells us to do, and provide for them. Setting boundaries isn't mate guarding. The boundaries just happen to be the doors on each side of my house.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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