Understanding Your Market, Understanding Alpha/Beta and Attraction (AKA Why red pill advice might be completely useless)

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March 31, 2014

It came to my attention the other day while reading a thread regarding a guy who was put on hold during a phone call (so she could pick up another call). He had mentioned hanging up because it suddenly occurred to him he was tolerating a disrespectful attitude. I happen to agree that hanging up was a good move.

But the responses went everywhere from there.

  • would have been better not to answer when she called back.

  • I've used a simple, not agressive but deadpan "I don't wait". Just hang up when it goes on hold.

  • Count to thirty and hang up. If they want to talk to you they know how to call you back.

  • i would probably say something like "Call me back when you're done"

  • You could be a little pushier and say, "So?" or "That's nice." or "So let them leave a voice mail. I was talking before you just interrupted me."

  • Better answer--don't stick your dick in selfish rude bitch.

These answers range from actively challenging them to passive aggression. None are necessarily wrong answers, and might work in some scenarios, but I think it's important not to get caught up in the aggressive as-alpha-as-you-can-get feedback loop on a forum dedicated to talking about what it might mean to be alpha.

Let's analyze this behavior assuming this is early on in a fling, where you're still trying to get that plate spinning...

First of all, many aggressive responses would demonstrate a break in frame. If you say "you interrupted me" you are needlessly changing the tone, moving yourself from amused mastery to downright flustered. You have lost your frame. Secondly, responding in this way doesn't do much to boost attraction.

It's as if somebody got the idea that the golden standard of alpha is truly just a dick nobody wants to be around.

If you aren't pleasant enough to boost attraction, people won't like you.

You want to convey that your time is worth something, you are not a doormat. But you are also not a mindless drone that doesn't understand compromise, nor understands when to be pleasant to boost attraction.

I talk about this a lot when I post, so anybody who reads my work will recognize this theme I've been pushing, but how hard to push alpha depends solely on your local market.

You need to analyze and understand your market.

Are you in a market that's drenched in pussy? Are you in a market that's dry?

These are variables that will affect how you approach women. If you're in a market that has 10:1 guys to girls at the bar, you won't much establish yourself with a take-it-or-leave it approach... when they clearly know they can leave it.

This might seem like advice to becoming a slave to the pussy, and rest assured this would be a mistake to do- but you have to understand your market if you're going to be successful in it.

In a market where women are a dime a dozen, you have more power and more room to assert yourself. If she knows you can walk, she will withdraw from shit tests more quickly. If she knows you can't walk, or that she has options, she won't give a flying fuck about your ass hanging up- instead you've cost yourself an opportunity.

So what do you do on the phone?

You establish that your time is valuable, but you don't be an asshole about it. She is demonstrating that she doesn't value your time... and in certain markets, she can dictate that. She knows she can get guys drooling for the pussy and she won't fuss with a guy that won't jump hoops.

In certain markets, she can dictate that.

Don't forget this important piece of information. If you are going to be enlightened and play the game, you cannot lie to yourself about markets.

Ever go to a concert where bottles of water are $5 each (or beer over $10)? You think to yourself, water is free, falls from the sky, and you'd never pay that. But here you are, at a concert, and they know they have the market cornered. You might not want that, and a smart fella would avoid that market altogether, but the market exists, and the price will be set by supply and demand. Ignoring this is as ignorant as your were in your blue pill days.

What do you do? Do you become a slave? No of course not. But you don't set ultimatums before you've built attraction.

You don't set ultimatums before you've built attraction.

Saying "hey, I'm out anyway, call me later" is a perfectly good way to assert you're not a doormat, but it's rolling with the punches. She's busy, you get it. You're not fussed because you've got a life too. It doesn't bother you, your frame is unbroken, but you're not door-matting either.

Now I know full well some markets tolerate more than others, so you will need to adjust your behavior accordingly.. but make sure that you do adjust your behavior to your market.

Some of the advice here is just fucking awful for some markets, and following it blindly is just god damned stupid.

I'll restate my rule of thumb, don't set ultimatums before you've build attraction. At what stage you build attraction depends on your local market, but you have to get her hooked before you hardball. In some markets where you're in high demand, you can call the shots the first day you meet her. In some markets responding to the on-hold scenario with the advice above would cost you the opportunity.

Some guys would say, "it doesn't matter if it costs you the opportunity. Ain't no pussy worth that shit..."

I'm going to disagree with that here. If you know what you're doing, and you know what you want, there is no behavior beneath you that you can't use to attain your goals. This includes beta game, alpha game, and everything in between. In some markets you are going to have to scale it back.

It shouldn't have to be said, but recently I've seen a lot of focus by our members here on trying to one-up eachother on the most alpha way to deal with a situation...and it's fun to discuss, but it's not right, it's not the full picture, and it's going to lead some people astray. When you don't feel comfortable utilizing your full repertoire of behaviors to achieve your goals, you've artificially limited yourself.

We brag about being alpha, and discuss it's benefits because most people start off not understanding how to act at all, being slaves to the pussy. But once you master your game, you also need to learn when to use it, how to use it, and how to scale it back.

The true mark of a player (or a man who genuinely wants a relationship) is one who knows not only how to game a chick, but how to get her to fall in love. You don't want to cost yourself the opportunity to have a doting plate bringing you dinner and beers on a weeknight just because you failed to pick up the principles of game.

Make no mistake, a number of those replies above were setting ultimatums, and without proper attraction, you will be on the losing side of the ultimatums.

Post Information
Title Understanding Your Market, Understanding Alpha/Beta and Attraction (AKA Why red pill advice might be completely useless)
Author redpillschool
Upvotes 299
Comments 66
Date 31 March 2014 03:54 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/13347
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/21u3rh/understanding_your_market_understanding_alphabeta/
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Red Pill terms found in post:
amused masteryalphabetaframeplateshit testgamethe red pillthe blue pill

[–][deleted] 72 points72 points | Copy

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[–]VelociReactor2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

What are some good high female density volunteering areas?

[–]xtr3m2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

SPCA (Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) comes to mind.

[–]Frogtarius1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

That explains PETA a lot.

[–]Xein2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy

Yeah it seems all the typical spots are geared toward female advantage - I have rarely been out around town and been to a spot with more women than men.

I have to admit I'm somewhat confused. I thought that in general the dating market was skewed towards females. period. Isn't that the point of demonstrating alpha traits/behaviors? Kind of a way to stand out among the competition.

[–][deleted] 13 points13 points | Copy

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[–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (4 children) | Copy

It's kind of funny that today, the bar, the club, and the internet are considered the traditional dating marketplace. My grandparents would say that is where you go to find prostitutes.

[–]zernoise9 points10 points  (3 children) | Copy

Isn't that pretty much still true?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

It is, the point is that people didn't used to go to bars and clubs to find dates because they know they will generally find low quality people there. But now, people expect to find their future wife or husband there.

[–]veggie_girl3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Still low quality all the way around.

[–]zernoise0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

My old manager used to say he doesn't go on dates with girls from bars and clubs bc he can spend the same amount on a hooker and skip all the bullshit

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Enjoyed your Blue Ocean Strategy reference and example of "Volunteer Game."

To those not familiar, Blue Ocean Strategy is positioning yourself to be so distinctive that you become a category of one... While your competitors thrash about in the bloody Red Ocean trying to survive.

Nightclubs are heavily skewed to favor HB, and she knows it. It's a brutal Red Ocean scenario for thirsty guys. But since HB knows her true value, beyond the packaging, is shit, the Alpha is still the biggest prize in the room.

[–] points points | Copy

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[–]Senior ContributorRedPope3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

you make plans, and the plans take place at the usual downtown hot spot

Don't suggest bad plans. You don't take sand to the beach, and you don't bring a steak to the meat market.

[–][deleted] 32 points33 points  (3 children) | Copy

This general idea of RP tactics manifesting differently based on the user is very overlooked. People will talk about how looks doesn't matter for this guy they know or how some celebrities look like shit and get laid a lot, or how one broke dude they know is swimming in pussy, and conclude that "looks don't matter." "Money doesn't matter, dude, look at this guy I know!"

Yeah, money don't matter for the guy you know, because he has game and despite being broke, has positioned himself in a way where he will come in contact with girls frequently (bartender, drug dealer, personal trainer, etc). You aren't HIM! Same thing with the celebrity. Looks don't matter for the celebrity, but you're not a fucking celebrity, so why are we having this discussion? Looks matter for you. Some dudes in PUA will intentionally fuck up their looks, like shave a weird buzzcut figure into their head and grow a mullet just to prove that looks don't matter to their clients. And good on them, that is great and much needed in general, because we have an effeminate, pussy BP audience who is looking for any excuse to not approach, like "I don't look good today."

But the fact is, (assuming the PUA instructor is 'real') he can do that because he has presumably been going out for a few years and has developed his game and ability to feel high SMV despite knowing he looks like a jackass. You, you with the ponytail and D&D face, looks fucking matter for you and developing them as a supplement to learning game is mandatory.

What TRP needs to keep in mind is that our beloved tactics all crash and burn in the wrong hands. Dread game is hilariously pathetic if you go about it in a beta way, for example. It's like in the Office (can't get that damn Gervais principle out of my head) where Michael is constantly using the "alpha CEO" tactics he has learned from watching TV bosses and reading books about how to be the big dog of the office. He is, in many ways, a perfect comparison for the RP failure, the type of guy who fascinates himself and idolizes these various "RP" figures like James Bond and Hank Moody, and constantly studies their movements and tactics to try to emulate them and be "smooth" like them. You have to understand you aren't them, this is a growth process, you start where you start, and you earn the benefits to being alpha. You don't get to just decide you are alpha, gain some massive repertoire of "alpha OP spells", and are now lvl 60 at World of Women, ready to use your new arsenal.

[–]mo_dingo0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

but you're not a fucking celebrity, so why are we having this discussion?

This is something that I wish everyone would understand. If you are short, bald & stuck in a wheelchair, you have to accept that this is who you are and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. So why fret over the things that you cannot change?

Instead, focus on the things you can change. Lose fat if you need to, build muscle, dress better (it's very important to wear clothes that fit, a shirt 1-2 sizes to big is very unattractive) & build confidence in yourself.

Please watch this video if you are stuck on things that you cannot change about yourself.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Holy shit this. Whenever someone posts the Simple Pickup "pickup in a fat suit" video and tells me that looks don't matter...argh.

[–]2insickness26 points27 points  (1 child) | Copy

I agree with this 100%. Guys are all too ready to shout, "NEXT!!!1!!!" whenever some poor sap posts his relationships problems. Yes, many times this guy hasn't demonstrated a willingness to walk away and that's his problem, but a one-word answer won't help him at all.

You don't set ultimatums

It should be clear here that you aren't talking about explicit ultimatums, such as, "If you don't start sleeping with me more often, I'm leaving you." Explicit ultimatums are more than worthless, they demonstrate disempowerment.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

Correct, we're talking about covert ultimatums.

[–]NeoBushi9 points10 points  (9 children) | Copy

Market differences are important. I am realizing that now that I moved back to Chicago from NYC two months ago. The market is vastly skewed in favor of women here. There is an army of guys here who work hard, are well behaved, work out, and are willing to spend money on women. They are tall Irish/German descendants who crowd the bars and clubs desperate for pussy. I was shocked how many of these would crowd a bar and actually compete to buy women drinks and throw out compliments.

Its harder to build attraction when men are perceived to be utilitarian and fungible. At least in NYC men can be viewed as sex objects and ONS's are abundant.

[–]Xein5 points6 points  (8 children) | Copy

So how have you had to change your game to adjust?

[–]NeoBushi7 points8 points  (7 children) | Copy

I haven't. I moved to concentrate on money. I work 7am-3pm at an equities firm then I go run my family business from 3:30pm-7pm. Then go to the gym for 2 hours and fall out. All I have are the weekends so I will have to figure something out. I actually invited my Russian ex in New York to fly over and spend a week here lol. I definitely need to spin more plates.

[–]Jack_Sophmore3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Can I ask about your business?

[–]NeoBushi0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Well I'm a stock trader during market hours. My family business is an insurance sales office.

[–]suscitare2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

Not an ideal space to be in in terms of quality of life; at least you are making money. Chicago sounds a bit like Melbourne. It's rather disheartening to work hard all week and then go out on the week-end looking to hook up and being confronted by a complete COCK-FEST at your local bar.

You mentioned your Russian ex. I also have a Russian ex or 2; Have you considered travelling to Russia to find a wife? In my opinion Russian women are far superior wife-material to the demented, entitled sluts that infest the world-wide Anglo-saxon empire.

[–]NeoBushi1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Yes I am, I went on a 3 week trip through eastern europe with a friend of mine in december. He speaks Russian and I was impressed with how many women he was able to communicate with so I am starting to learn the language ASAP. The women I hooked up with from eastern europe have always been very loyal and amorous.

[–]suscitare0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

He speaks Russian and I was impressed with how many women he was able to communicate with so I am starting to learn the language ASAP

Good idea; but you are going to need a lot of time and effort to do that. Learning Russian will open up more possibilities for dating; Russia has a fascinating history and culture.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

If you're in Melbourne, you're looking in all the wrong places then.

[–]suscitare0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I am in Melbourne; can't stand the "Spice Market". Well can you pm me if you know of better venues and which time the sluts show up there.

[–]westsan6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

Yeah, I agree, a guy working in the Alaskan tundra should jump though hoops I guess.

I call BS

I once worked on a fishing boat in Alaska.
We were a crew of guys working with one girl from the EPA. I realized later that while I was jumping through hoops, she was balling all the Alpha guys in the boat. So NO, and if you do you must take the hoop and say now its your turn and do not return the hoop.

[–]iKill_eu1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I don't see anyone advocating that you jump through hoops. all I see is the idea that if you're not in an abundant market, acting like you are (nexting for minimal offences) will only lose you options.

[–]westsan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I totally agree, and thanks for the comment.

The thing with that, I've learned, is you want to draw the woman to you, not approach her. If you approach her in a tight market she's apt to use you. That's a human quality.

[–]DjBottleservice7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is exactly it. I moved back to my small home town in British Columbia. Let me tell you it's hard to pick up girls you've known most of your life because They already have a set opinion about me. I've decided that being more Sigma about the social dynamics in my current location and it's been working rather well.

[–]the_Milkweed14 points15 points  (2 children) | Copy

this is one thing I have been slowly advocating to my friends through subtle hints. Being alpha doesn't mean being an obnoxious dick, it means being smart in all scopes. Be that body spirit and mind.

Females are humans too, we may not be happy about the way they act but if we wanna go around acting like we found the holy grail we need to start acting modest and endearing. The asshole is going to ruin us.

[–]YourFoxyFriend 6 points6 points [recovered] | Copy

What TRP means to me:

-Be a man. Be THE man. Not a demanding asshole. -Inspire people to follow you and make the into leaders. Not put down beta guys because "they need more alpha in their lives". -Be able to get women because they enjoy your presence. Not being a demanding prick who doesn't settle.

[–]Cypher2116 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy

Very good post. I've seen a lot of guys recently on here mindlessly shouting NEXT or words to that effect. Being alpha doesn't mean being an aggressive asshole and the subtleties behind a lot of redpill theories seem to just fly over people's heads.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

Yeah. I needed this post. I was given the advice to be the biggest dick possible, and I was already an ass hole.

[–]iKill_eu1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Same here! RP has helped me a LOT to become more assertive but I'm realizing that there was a lot of times where playing the asshole felt off because it wasn't actually the right move.

I was advised to go full on jerk alpha by a lot of people, and it helped me, but there's opportunities that I HAVE definitely missed because I was calling it quits before I had even built any attraction simply because a woman wasn't respecting me when I had yet to give her a reason to.

Another thing I've learned is that sometimes, girls just want guys to jump through hoops. Seriously. They're not always looking to be swept up by alpha men of status, but simply trying to play the field for betas. If you try to enter that market, you're playing to their rules - because if she doesn't find that you're conforming to her fun she's got the leaving power. That's just a stupid situation to be in as a guy.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

You are 100% right, and even added a few things I hadn't considered. Thanks man.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

So much of this is good, but a big part of it is bad. Or simply wrong. Early PUA stuff was largely motivated by the experiences of Mystery, who targeted a very narrow demographic - vapid, hb9, waitress/model/actresses, that were scared shitless that they'd never make it and everyone back in bumblefuck middle america was right that they were silly to move to hollywood to chase their dreams. i.e. they were desperate to prove themselves worthy. It was very easy to exploit. Be a cunt, make them prove themselves, then give them a carrot, but take it away... and so on. If they wanted a forgettable, but confident nice guy that gives them attention/approval for nothing, they would have married the football captain back in bumblefuck middle america. Or one of the guys they meet literally every single day. Being a cunt to a girl like this simultaneously exploits her ego and her fear. In a typical club/bar, there ARE women like this.

You do need to understand and analyze your market. Very true, but I think you're dead wrong in analyzing this one. There's more than one way to skin a cat, but being an interesting cunt to insecure girls in a bar is very effective. Granted, most men can't pull it off. You can be as big of a cunt to these women as you want, but you still have to be interesting. Most people are mind-blowingly uninteresting.

I think it's more important to look at it from the other direction. Choose a strategy that works on the type of girl you'd like to be successful with and then find a market where that strategy works. The interesting asshole strategy is absolutely effective...in reeling in the most vapid, entitled, hypergamous cunts.

[–]thecajunone5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy

I hope this goes in the side bar or something. Best post I've seen in months.

[–]1PaulRivers100 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, it's fantastic to see something that's interesting (and accurate) reading, lately I've been feeling like TRP has been turning to much into a "complain all the time" fest. Nice to see something of quality. :-)

[–]DirtyD272 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Don't I know it... being a college senior in the bay area my money would be better spent on lottery tickets than at the bar.

[–]1mrust2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Very interesting way of looking at it. SMV will fluctate based on prevailing conditions. That is the very definition of a market.

I think we can simplify if the guy can give us an accurate read on what the girl thinks her relative SMV is. Three methods of indirection may not seem simple, but it's exactly the kind of reasoning humans do intuitively. Talking about looking at the market implies that you have to have a read on what the prevailing conditions are as you say:

You need to analyze and understand your market.

I think this type of analysis is good when deciding on your approach and tweaking your game to fit the location/context. In the situation we had, the market can be simplified to the girl's estimation of her relative SMV

You have a 1 on 1 interaction, there's no need to introduce any other variables. The more the girl thinks SMV is in your favor, the more she will put up with and the more "alpha" you can be. Not that you necessarily should always reach for the most alpha hammer. Pretty soon everything will look like a nail.

Back to the situation, in my opinion the most important factors were:

  • Congruency (it's not the time to fake it till you make it)
  • Holding frame (great advice above on the change in tone)
  • Context (she's on the phone about to put you on hold, you have VERY little power to affect her behavior)
  • Relative SMV (market) is a distant fourth because she'd already demostrated how (not) important the conversation was

TD;DR: Market can be reduced to perceived relative SMV in 1on1 situations. Wasn't most critical factor in example given.

[–]2RedPill4LYF1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I don't make a big deal about it, I just really don't feel like waiting on hold for who knows how long, so I tell them to just call me back. If they have a problem with that the relationship probably wasn't going to go far anyway.

[–]DarkCircle1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

In a situation like someone trying to put me on hold, I would turn it in to a game. "Hey you have 30 seconds, then you gotta call me back". Possibly hang up after 20 then if she complains, bicker over the time or some dumb crap.

But I dunno. In markets saturated with cock, I think it is better to put your head down and work on yourself. Nothing worse or more dangerous then a bunch of crap women that love having guys fight over them.

Not too successful with women but that's what I feel to do.

[–][deleted] 2 points2 points | Copy

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[–]Modredpillschool[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

haha, whoops, fixed

[–]RomeoIn3D0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Isn't this called "Always be Calibrating"? An older and simpler all-encompassing seduction idea.

[–]Unbreakable_5760 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Bloody awesome. Starting out, I was too extreme with my RP behaviours....which ended in me not getting laid. I put a smattering of beta in and voila!! Being a blue pill beta is totally different from being a red pill beta. In the former you're clueless while in the latter you're being strategic. This reminds me of an old post which said any winning strategy is an alpha strategy

[–]xzynth040 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Not a aprilsfools prank, no?

[–]stomptttt0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

In a market where women are a dime a dozen, you have more power and more room to assert yourself.

In no culture, in no city at any time has such a market existed in my experience

[–]Beardsman20 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

You seem stuck in the whole mindset of amused mastery, agree and amplify, indifference/nonchalance. These have there place , but it's not the way to get what you want in these sorts of circumstances. Any time that you are being disrespected in this kind of way the most effective means of addressing it is to sack up and tell/punish/call out the person.

Say no. Punish their disrespect with your words. And following the punishment offer them the correct alternative for next time...once the offending party has submitted to both your punishment with a full apology and agreed to your terms you should provide a small reward. In modern day relationship talk this is called setting boundries. It is absolutely not losing frame, its the opposite, the frame must be completely in your hands, if she tries to rationalize (and steal the frame then punish harder), never engage the rationalizations only punish until she submits with the full apology. Do it correctly and she won't commit the same offence for a long time guaranteed.

Ill say it again, this is how we set boundaries. Girls love and need boundaries because it makes them feel safe in the presence of a man with big balls that has no problem with conflict. And it doesn't matter what the circumstances of the market are because these boundaries are vital for a successful relationship.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Again, this is why you need to pay attention to your local market. Nobody's stuck in amused mastery, it's calibration for your local market (and for your goals... quick lay vs LTR)

[–]deepsouthscoundrel0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Overall good post, although I'd probably still call next in that scenario. For one reason in particular: I value my time above almost everything else.

In some markets where you're in high demand, you can call the shots the first day you meet her. In some markets responding to the on-hold scenario with the advice above would cost you the opportunity.

It absolutely would, but that shouldn't matter to you if you're operating under a mindset of outcome independence and of abundance mentality.

Some guys would say, "it doesn't matter if it costs you the opportunity. Ain't no pussy worth that shit..." I'm going to disagree with that here.

If you know what you're doing, and you know what you want, there is no behavior beneath you that you can't use to attain your goals. This includes beta game, alpha game, and everything in between. In some markets you are going to have to scale it back.

Well... Obviously. Obviously if I start jumping through hoops for a woman (and subsequently wasting my time) she'll be more likely to stick around.

What isn't obvious is why I should start jumping through hoops. If you hold the attitudes of abundance mentality and outcome independence, there's no reason to start jumping through hoops for a woman - she's replaceable.

Now I know full well some markets tolerate more than others, so you will need to adjust your behavior accordingly.. but make sure that you do adjust your behavior to your market.

You would have me adapt to the market I'm already in, when I would rather just change markets. Clearly I'm not looking in the right places, because I want any woman that I'm having any sort of relationship with to value my time as much as I do. I'm not going to start valuing my time less to conform to the sexual marketplace when I can easily shift markets.

I agree that knowing one's sexual market is key, and I understand that there are sexual marketplace realities that can't be ignored. In some markets women call all the shots, and there's nothing we can do about that. If I were to find myself in such a market, I'd just change markets.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

but that shouldn't matter to you if you're operating under a mindset of outcome independence and of abundance mentality.

That's the point- you can embrace these things- they're red pill 101. And then you can use your training to look at situations realistically.

Have the mentality of abundance, but realize that sometimes the market is stacked against you. Your abundance mentality does you no good if it forces you into an incel situation. You must adapt to your market to best exploit it. (The best example of this is Roosh's "bang" guides, where he illustrates just how he has to change his approach for different cultures and markets).

What isn't obvious is why I should start jumping through hoops. If you hold the attitudes of abundance mentality and outcome independence, there's no reason to start jumping through hoops for a woman - she's replaceable.

This thoroughly misses the point of my essay- which is that you need to judge the market for what it is, and not be afraid of exploiting it. On the red pill, people are so balls-to-the-wall alpha-bro, they forget that some markets don't have that demand! You can charge 200% more than the next guy, but eventually you gotta think about why you're not making sales.

I'm not saying drop game- or your attitude. I'm saying calibrate to your market.

You would have me adapt to the market I'm already in, when I would rather just change markets.

No, not at all. Changing markets is a fine option too.

[–]ErnieJohn0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I had a gf's sister that took other calls often while I was on the phone with her. In this specific case you can be alpha (or at least not beta) but calibrate so it doesn't turn into an ultimatum.

As soon as she says "Can you hold on a minute?" or "I've got to take this call", I quickly say "No, I've gotta go anyway" or "I'm doing a couple things" or "I've gotta go too".

She'll stay on the line a second and say "Ok I guess we'll talk later?" or else she's in the process of clicking over and you get to just hang up.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy

I call out bad behavior in women all the time. It works beautifully.

Acting arrogant and domineering towards a slightly interested woman works wonders.

[–]1PaulRivers101 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy

It depends on how arrogant and domineering, but I've repeatedly found that it's far more arrogant and domineering than my blue pill friends would put up with.

It has to do with how women treat each other - sure, they're better at being subtle about it, but they're doing the same thing to each other all the time when men aren't around. You don't realize it because when a man says "what a slut" (which is rare for a man to do), they all jump up to defend the girl they may not even know. But when other women say "what a slut", they laugh and agree.

They don't see it as being a jerk if they think you're important - they see it as regular communication.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Every time I've stood up to a woman or called out bad behavior, it only increased her attraction for me. Her status and looks were usually much higher than mine. It works.

[–]penhova0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

can you give me an example of that? i mean what are you gonna say if, for example, she say something offensive about someone?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

A girl attempted to interrupt a conversation between me and a friend. She wanted to talk my good looking friend. I told her "can't you see I'm talking?" A couple of minutes later, the woman started aggressively flirting with me.

If she said something offensive about anyone, I tell her to shut up with a strong voice. I don't try to say anything with emotion because I'd lose frame.

Men see rudeness as a threat so I'm polite to every male. Women see calm rudeness and bossiness from a man as high status, regardless of his actual status.

[–]TerpAccount0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Now that you mention this, I am mentally putting things together. Being the oldest brother in the extended/joint family, I had 'alpha' thrust upon me. This basically meant 'rearing' the others, and funnily even my aunts and uncles considered me their side rather than the 'kids side' even though the next in line was just a year younger than me. This has been going on as far as my memory goes (so possibly 3-4 years of age). So, what ever age I am, I get maximum responsibility, be it taking care of my brothers when no one else is around, or breaking a fight, or even punching one because he acted unfairly to the other. What this has done is basically, I cut the bullshit behaviour of one to the other and tell everyone to play fair. Now, after 20+ years of doing this, even now, it involuntarily comes out when interacting with others, and as you say, I do 'sense' that not just the woman, but all other women around as well, seem to have slightly more respect for me. (In my culture, aggressive women flirting is practically a death sentence)

Other than that, I'm still trying to learn the ways of the RP (so yeah, no super macho man stories here).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Women eat up punishment like ice cream while men can't stand having their egos hurt. It's why women get hard ons for crazy bosses while men can't stand it.

[–]medguy22-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

You are completely on point. Only guys with huge SMV can pull that sort of shit. And they'd be pulling pussy anyway. Ultimatums and all of that are more to keep your women in line than to build attraction.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

well said.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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