Counterpoint: Incel is a useful term, tons of people are celebate who don't want to be

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June 4, 2014

/u/drrrrrr posted a topic today Incel is a retarded term. Celibate or not, it is completely voluntary. And while he's not entirely wrong, it misses the point of the term completely. His post is littered with platitudes and misses what it means to be involuntarily celibate. And it misses why we're here.

While this advice- "you have the power! You hold the keys to change!" - Sounds nice and self-helpy, it actually just digs a deeper hole for those who are actually involuntarily celibate.

Let's first visit the term involuntarily celibate. At first glance, you'd think on a subreddit dedicated to learning how to attract women, we'd be of the belief that, indeed, nobody needs to be celibate, if they just do a little work, anybody can have sex.

But the word "involuntary" indicates that this celibacy isn't by choice. That doesn't preclude that solving celibacy isn't a choice- it just means that the path isn't clear.

drrr's post reads like somebody trying to solve depression by saying "being depressed is a choice, just be happy instead!"

The fact is, if it were entirely voluntary, incels would have sex. So there's another component to it that can't be ignored. Women have to want to have sex with you for you to stop being an incel. You can't just walk out your door one day and say "I've decided not to be an incel. Time for sex!"

Yes, indeed, people do hold the keys to getting out of the rut- /r/theredpill is a good place to start. You do have the power to get yourself out of it. BUT that doesn't mean it's easy, and it doesn't mean most people know how.

And there is one final point I want to make- sometimes, no matter how hard you try, no matter how much work you put in, you are going to have dry spells.

Some regions truly do suck.

So don't go into hating yourself when that happens. Instead, consider the variables that you can change. Can you go to the gym more? Can you travel to other areas? Perhaps for just a weekend? Have you tried different game (day game instead of night game?)

Be pragmatic. Approach this like you would any other problem. It can sometimes take a long time before you break through to the other side, but once you're there, things get a lot easier. The confidence of getting laid can turn into a hundred lays very quickly.

Post Information
Title Counterpoint: Incel is a useful term, tons of people are celebate who don't want to be
Author redpillschool
Upvotes 110
Comments 141
Date 04 June 2014 02:06 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Original Link
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Red Pill terms found in post:
day gameincelgamethe red pill

[–]thedeathofgod26 points27 points  (15 children) | Copy

Out of curiosity, how many people here have met some one who is an InCel? I have a friend in Oklahoma who is an 22 year old virgin who is on disablity, has never even kissed a girl, has zero social skills due to his autism, not even going into his generally slovenly appearance. If you met him, you'd realize that telling him "Its not involuntary" is not the best option.

[–]DrakeSaint20 points21 points  (6 children) | Copy

Guy I know lives through gaming, animes and MLP stuff. He's fat, spends his entire day playing videogames and has no job nor college degrees. He lives through the pension his mother receives from separated father and is not planning to change his lifestyle.

He is not a virgin only because when he was 18 people took him to a whorehouse and he fucked one of the ugliest whores in there.

It's impossible to say it's voluntary when he spends his entire existence in his illusion world where his mom provides for him his internet bills, computer, chair, food, water, shelter, and shit.

EDIT: Just so you know how much of an InCel he is: his Facebook profile photo was taken by his mum, and he is trying to cover his face with his hand.

[–]dreckmal9 points10 points  (4 children) | Copy

It's impossible to say it's voluntary when he spends his entire existence in his illusion world where his mom provides for him his internet bills, computer, chair, food, water, shelter, and shit.

Unless his mom is literally tying him to a chair and forcing him to act the way he does, his actions are voluntary.

[–]DrakeSaint9 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy

Copying another post I made in this same subject:

Let me ask you this.

What if for nearly two decades after you are born you're given spoonfed information by the media, your parents, your parents' parents, society and everything which could theorically give you some insight about how life is told you that Blue Pilling is the way to go in your life? Would you say to choose the Red Pill is voluntary? I'd say no, it isn't. Those people you're referring to don't know better. They follow everything those same groups tell them to do their entire life, or suck up whatever they want to without regards of different opinions. They're blind in their own worlds and can't see through the veil of the ugly fucking truth. Which gives them the "involuntary" tag. And in my opinion, it is damn accurate.

[–]dreckmal12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy

What if for nearly two decades after you are born you're given spoonfed information by the media, your parents, your parents' parents, society and everything which could theorically give you some insight about how life is told you that Blue Pilling is the way to go in your life?

That is exactly how I grew up. 31 years of BP. 31 years of not understanding why women weren't banging down my door to get some sweet, sweet 'nice guy' dick.

I could either choose to blame the women, or myself. I blamed the women for years. But then I came to realize: If you meet an asshole in the morning, he was an asshole. If you meet assholes all day, you are the asshole (thanks yesterday's front page). I could either assume 100% of women I was meeting were wrong, or I was.

Would you say to choose the Red Pill is voluntary?

What choice is ever given to you, that isn't voluntary? Never mind dislike of the outcomes of the choices. All choice is voluntary. You choose A, or B, or to not make a choice.

Absolutely TRP is a choice. You can lead a horse to water, the horse decides whether or not to drink.

They're blind in their own worlds and can't see through the veil of the ugly fucking truth.

The ugly fucking truth hits them in the balls every time they get rejected by following Blue Pill strategies. Every time 'that' guy gets wicked pissed that the next woman thought he was an unattractive spineless douche. Every time he hears 'no' and get's the white hot pain in his gut.

We don't candy coat shit here. We don't give medicine with sugar. If it is a choice, it is voluntary. If you aren't making a decision, you have still made a choice (thanks, RUSH).

The people we are talking about here are making a choice not to introspect. They are actively choosing not to expose themselves to other opinions and view points.

If what you are doing doesn't get the results you want, do you just do the same thing, but harder? That would be a waste of both time and intelligence. Especially in the day and age of the internet, there are few excuses to continue pining for Blue Pill sentiment. The knowledge is there for the taking.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

He's referring to the delusion of this person's mind.
But yes it's voluntary even if he's not aware of it!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

stories like this make me feel like a god in comparison

[–]LibertarianLibertine8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy

I know multiple. A fatty, a gamer and an extreme introvert. Those are actual virgins, but how long shuold a dry streak be for it to turn into incel?

[–]Endorsed Contributorgekkozorz5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

That requires a /r/TheBluePill subscription.

[–]Endorsed ContributorLastRevision0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Living in scarcity vs. living in abundance.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

Every male has been an incel in his own life, the period may have been brief but every teenage boy that wants to get laid and isn't getting laid is an incel if only for a day. Just imagine that continuing on, longer and longer and being told some bluepill platitude about love that is only said to save your feeling while nobody tries to explain to you how to fix your problem, and eventually they blame you for being an incel. It really is like depression how the OP explains it except it's easier to fix (unless you are an incell because of depression or mental issues). "Be your self" causes incels to be in that life.

The truth about being an incel is that it isn't a choice but it can be made into one. All boys reach an age where their biological imperative cracks down and demands sex desires are met, from that moment until the moment you get it in you are an incell. All boys live it, most try to do something about it, although those things in our current society are tinted by the blue pill morality presented by PC, feminist, Hollywood culture.

We get some people mocking the MGTOW virgins, the guys that are waiting 'til marriage and grass eaters but those guys typically aren't incels they're free of it.

My point is that although "incel" has been used as a pejorative it is a word that accurately describes a part of the male condition the word needs no connotation for shame because the shame is a projection of those that attempt to offend with the word and not necessarily the shame of the person not having sex. another way of saying this is that "incel" is an apt descriptor of men/boys that feel shame for their lack of sex but this shame originates inwardly and that no further projection is needed to make that person realize the true nature of involuntary celibacy.

All men know Incel status some more than others we should keep using the words because it is a tool to fight Involuntary celibacy but using it to condemn those afflicted by it will likely hurt our cause in the long run use it to describe reality, not to push people. as touchy as the subject is we don't want anymore Eliot Rodgers flying of the handle because we twist the knife that is their own self resentment.

We should keep using the word, maybe recognize that all those not getting laid aren't incells and those that are incels have internalized shame and that they don't need you to make them feel any worse about that shame, they need help to find peace and people in redpill pill be they whore hoppers or MGTOW can equip incels with

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I said barring people with medical issues that prevent them from taking action. A broke, autistic, disabled kid who lives in Oklahoma, and has bad facial aesthetics, and probably some depression too... OK, dude, that is a rare exception. Most people (in these two threads even) who identify as incel are neither autistic nor disabled nor reliant upon govt money. This is like if I say "anyone can learn how to play a musical instrument decently with enough practice" and you reply "Not this dude with no arms, try telling him to just put in the effort, access the right information, and keep plugging away at it". Yes, you are right. (Although on street corners I see limbless dudes jamming the fuck out).

Most incels I know are similar to what DrakeSaint described below. They make day to day choices that include video games, shitty food, either throwing themselves into their career with the exclusion of all else, or coasting by underacheiving / leeching off some easy source of money. They do not approach, they do not talk to the hot barista at starbucks or the cute girl in their class. They have lengthy periods where they are angsty about women and needing sex, and just when they feel motivated, they oscillate into a phase of "its just pussy, who needs it, forget that let's just not change, keep it real!".

These are all choices. Their day to day lives are filled to the brim with opportunities to pour time into productive outlets that would ultimately net pussy, but they actively choose the wrong things, with a pretty good idea of what their choice means. Many actually can conceptualize in moments of clarity that they are choosing other things like security and familiarity of routine over behaviors that might one day net sex.

[–]thedeathofgod-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

I think our disagreement comes from the idea I hold that there are in fact two types of InCels. There are truly Involuntary Celibates, such as my friend in Oklahoma, who couldn't get laid with a year of Neil Strauss coaching him, and the ones that you described who make semiconscious or fully conscious decisions where they choose to do other things besides improving themselves to get sex. I'm going to refer to them as Voluntarily Celibates, or VolCels.

Elliot Rogers was a lot of things but he was not a VolCel. It was not through lack of trying he did not get laid. It was that the way he was trying was not effective and nobody told him the correct way. There was nothing wrong with him, besides having a bigger ego than Charlie Sheen, that could have prevented him from doing it and he was actively trying albeit in somewhat stupid ways.

Volcels are as you describe them. Men who could get laid but have chosen not to put in the time and effort needed to make it happen. Mgtows could conceivably fall into this category.

The reason I think this distinction is important is because in ages past there was a way for true InCels to get sex. This way was called "marriage". I like the comment that someone posted in this thread that said that women have an asymmetrical control over the sexual marketplace. This can not be changed. it can only be balanced out.

Marriage used to be the way to balance this, along with strong social taboos against having sex outside of marriage and great importance placed on the value of women's chastity. Now that women are free to choose who they have sex with, there is no reason that they would have sex with a man unattractive enough or socially awkward enough to be an InCel. And as Elliot Rogers, demonstrated, that's a problem that's only going to get worse before it gets better, if it gets better.

As a side not, I think this has been the most cordial internet conversation I've ever had.


[–]long-lostfriend0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Elliot Rogers was a lot of things but he was not a VolCel. It was not through lack of trying he did not get laid.

Did you read his manifesto? He never even approached women. The only "trying" he did was going out in public.

[–]areyousrslol11 points12 points  (6 children) | Copy

I'm a 24 year old virgin, and I've been an atheist for as long as I remember, so no religious reasons. I wouldn't say I'm extremely socially awkward, I'm studying medicine for fucks sake. And even though I'm an average student I'll finish and get my degree.

But I've never been able to connect with women in an intimate way. It's like some stop in my head that makes me act retarded in any situation where there was an opportunity.

I'm also fat and have an annoying personality, but other guys like that do get laid sometimes.

Could be the lack of male role models in my life, having grown up with only my sister, mom and grandmother. There should be research done on upbringing like that.

I don't know what you would call me, I've only learned incel from the Internet. But I know I'm not the only one, and I know it's entirely my fault and problem. I also know that there is no simple solution for decades of living life a certain way.

[–]1dick-opotamus5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

You sound like exactly the reason this sub exists. I wish you the best of luck on your journey!

[–]CyricYourGod0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Not being able to connect is the perfect door to getting laid. All you need to do is learn the right words (AND when to shut up) and boom, wet vaginas that you don't feel bad fucking and leaving.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'll take a stab. Fix easy shit first to build momentum.

Lose the weight, get on a good sleep schedule if you aren't already (not this 4am -> 2pm bullshit), lift 4 times a week (I would do SS adjusted to have more hypertrophy tacked on at the end if you can handle that).

I don't know what you're "I have an annoying personality means", but I am guessing you are the type of person who is just kinda abrasive? Get out of your head and don't look down on people. Dumb guys and dumb girls might be dumb, but they are also fucking, so having an aura of superiority is not going to be helpful now because it will likely show through in your behaviors and repel people. Fix your personality by practicing with friends (practice vibing, creating a good atmosphere where everyone is having fun, etc).

Always talk to any woman you can. Talk with grandmothers, cashiers, your niece, literally anyone. Practice just vibing, not flirting yet. Think of vibing as a tennis ball volley. You make a statement (so no gay upwards inflection) and if she does more than a curt response, like adds on a little extra, you hit it back again and see if she keeps playing. If you are sitting next to a girl on a bus, just say "hey. Where you headed today?"

If she says "class." and looks away, fine. If she says "Oh, just my bio class. How about you?", you are good for another round. Keep it rolling. Get OFF the starter subject and talk about something interesting but appropriate. Good coffee joints nearby, good nightlife, scandals on campus, concerts, etc. If you are ready to go to the next level, just practice asking for her number after a few minutes of chatting. She will likely say no. That is fine, pat yourself on the back. Do it again with another girl.

Eventually you WILL learn to have some degree of fun with it. "I just informed you about the best coffee place in this area. I know you haven't been, and you aren't going to know which blend to order. There's a lot of choices. You'll need guidance." Something like that, just do it and accept it will goof up most of the time. So what, it's amusing to you.

Ditch the annoying personality for a SELF-AMUSED personality. That is the long term goal IMO.

From what you are telling me, you don't have any big dealbreaker issues like severe depression / aspergers or anything forcing you to say the worst things / fail socially without any hope of change. You've just spend 20 years training yourself to not interact with women. Just try to interact with women enough to make up for all that lost time. Everyday, just talk to some girls, practice your body language and tonality, practice self-amusement, and be positive about it.

[–]long-lostfriend0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'm also fat and have an annoying personality, but other guys like that do get laid sometimes.

You are trying to tell us that absolutely zero women will have sex with you? That there is no hideous slut anywhere who would ever spread her legs for you in your current condition?

I have a hard time believing that you wouldn't get any action if you lowered your standards enough. So, it's either that, or get to raising your SMV. In either case, it's not involuntary.

[–]TRP VanguardArchwinger15 points16 points  (10 children) | Copy

It's stupid to debate definitions and split hairs.

Okay, so an "incel" isn't technically "involuntarily" celibate, because there were some things he could have done, albeit in many/most cases, the incel doesn't know what he ought to do differently, which is why he's been celibate for so long.

So we change the colloquial term to "uncel"? Because the guy's "unintentionally celibate?" He definitely didn't mean to end up living that way. But maybe that's being too generous, too, because he intentionally did stupid things to get where he is, right?

Maybe "stucel", for "stupidly celibate?" Because the guy made stupid choices that led him to that point?

What's it matter? We're playing word games when a term is well-understood to mean a guy who's not sexually successful and wishes he was and didn't intentionally end up sexless.

[–]Dreamtrain2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

stucel doesn't has that ring to it but I think it's the case that applies to most virgin men, the stupid choices being following what feminists tell him that would make him a better man: be nice, drop your own needs to make the girl happy, always be willing to go out of your way for her, don't lift girls don't really care for muscles, the right girl will come along, etc.

Of course this doesn't works, so the guy tries the above harder, repeat till he kills himself, finds TRP or "gets lucky".

[–]dreckmal4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy

Speaking from experience, 'getting lucky' is anything but... If you don't know how to deal with women, and you end up with one, you're right fucked.

[–]Dreamtrain2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Getting lucky to me is for things like, being shot and the bullet missing a vital organ, needing an organ transplant and a donor being readily available, your new car not needing more than the usual maintenance. But with women, it's as if it implied you were at their mercy and something beyond your control to make it happen or drop it when.

[–]dreckmal2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, getting lucky with women is definitely a blue pill way of looking at it.

[–]Carkudo0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

As an incel who 'got lucky' a couple times, I must say you are absolutely right, sir.

[–]Sleep-less1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Incel is involuntarily celibate. People the average woman wouldn't fuck with a stolen vagina. Sorry to sound harsh, but people with deformities, chronic skin conditions, birth defects, personality disorders, autism etc.

People who could "get girls if they lost 100lbs or if they stopped acting like a social fucktard aren't incels, they're just losers.

[–]tallwheel0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

It's stupid to debate definitions and split hairs.

Ironically, that's exactly what I'm going to do.

involuntary adj.

  1. Acting or done without or against one's will: an involuntary participant in what turned out to be an argument.

  2. Not subject to control of the volition: gave an involuntary start. See Synonyms at spontaneous.

I think a lot of the confusion is because OP is going by definition 1. above. You, and some others, are going by 2.

[–]TRP VanguardArchwinger1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Nobody is confused.

One guy thought that calling involuntary celibacy "involuntary" was a cop out to abdicate personal responsibility. Another guy says not knowing what to do or not having the ability to fix things is essentially involuntary.

Regardless, everyone knows what's meant by this colloquial term, making this entire discussion purely academic.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I agree. One focus that I've always had for our subreddit is keeping it welcome to people like M3 who identify as incels- not because they're "victims" so-to-speak, but because they need to find acceptance before they're going to learn how to change.

I know that a lot of the red pill is tough love, so most guys don't get it and want to continue with the "I got it figured out, so you shouldn't have trouble" but we can't lose the focus that it isn't easy to get from there to here.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

It is important. Our terminology matters. But look, most people here aren't debating the term or not, we're debating the concept. Redpillschool is saying my concept is pie in the sky feel good, and therefore not RP, and my point is that the concept of incel runs contrary to the RP idea of women responding to the same set of characteristics that 99% of guys can build with time and dedication. The idea of involuntary versus voluntary definitely matters; if you are someone who is 25 and a virgin, how you think about yourself and your lack of sex will determine what you do about it. From what I'm hearing from reformed incels, the click seems to be when you stop perceiving yourself as involuntarily the way you are and take responsibility.

I understand how it comes off as a purely semantic debate. But as a subreddit grows, it is important to use terminology that is accurate and people have some sort of consensus about.

[–]EeeeeeevilMan10 points11 points  (5 children) | Copy

I agree.

Saying incel is voluntary or a choice is like saying a guy who's never heard of airplanes chooses not to fly because all he knows to do is flap his damn arms.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

To keep going with that analogy, the other thread and the end of this one point out that once the person finds out about planes and actively seeks one out, he can then fly.

Same thing with a lot of incels. Many are probably not too far gone that they could never get laid. I hate bringing up Elliot Rodger, but there was nothing strikingly wrong with that kid on the outside, it was all mental and personality. Lots of the incels I've met are at this point, and unfortunately many will never get out of it.

Then, you also have people who will never be able to go on that plane even if they find out about it. These would be true incels who women will never sleep with for whatever reason. There is no point discussing these guys because nothing can be done.

The issue comes down to how you define "incel" and if it can be a temporary thing or not for the individual. Incels do exist but most can change their situation.

There was another post on here where OP kept trying to convince everyone that looks matter a lot and the guys who look masculine will always be better at getting girls. While this may be true, he didn't provide a way to move past that or a solution to those who are less masculine looking, he was just making excuses. This is the same thinking feminists use and we should avoid it.

I don't want excuses, I want solutions.

[–]Sleep-less2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Solutions for those looking less masculine (short and sweet):

Lift. (lower body fat content will improve jawline, cheeckbones etc and add muscle)

Don't buy skinny clothes, buy "baggier" (but still properly fitting) clothes. Police 883 combat jeans are a good example. Also wear darker colours. (blacks, Grey's, navy, dark browns suit gingers well as do dark greens). Also, if your skinny, wearing a fairly tight t-SHIRT under a "slim fit" shirt Is a quick way of adding mass to your upper body while you start lifting.

Also, make sure your clothes are of good quality AND FIT WELL! This does wonders for a first impression of you. I tend to go for police 883, g-star, firetrap etc. Whatever suits you, but a woman sees a well dressed man, and she thinks "hes a good provider" (helps keep them interested while you game them, especially helpful if you have trouble GETTING a girl interested).

If you have smaller arms(muscles), cover them with (and start lifting) a smart long sleeve shirt etc. A decent watch also does wonders for your appearance. Don't be afraid to drop some cash on one, but make sure it has a decent weight to it. If you want something cheeper, a black g-shock will go with almost anything (it's rough and chunky looking as well as being rugged and durable).

Get a haircut that suits you.

Posture is a big factor. Remember to stand up straight but in a relaxed position. (Having your arms cocked like you have a carpet under each one just makes you look like a tool. If height is an issue, pick trainers/shoes that have a slightly bigger heel.

Lift. (Again)

[–]CyricYourGod-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy

Oh come the fuck on. Getting laid is biology. Short of someone being unfuckably hideous or medically emotionally broken, any problems having sex really is a voluntary problem. Seriously, post enough ads on Craiglist and you'll find someone who wants to have sex with near zero effort.

[–]Carkudo1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

So, short of problems that are unsolvable, all problems are solvable? That's deep, man.

[–]CyricYourGod-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Apparently some people need a reminder

[–][deleted] 8 points8 points | Copy

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[–]afropuffs5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

I understand your position far more than I care to; it was the exact same for me in HS and college. It was pretty hard to relax and be "natural" with women when in the back of your mind you hear the preachers telling you about "hellfire for your sins (fornication)". It would always bring up an internal conflict between your brain and your body, and I believe women can sense that a mile away.

Religion along with not having a male figure in the household are what's making absorbing the RP take as long as it is for me. Just keep improving one day at a time, and celebrate even the smallest of improvements. Those small gains all add up in the long run.

[–]dreckmal2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

You are choosing to enact that behavior. It is not involuntary.

I have been dating this one woman for a few months and haven't escalated because I'm so used to holding back.

You don't want to escalate because you are afraid to lose her. That fear will lose her for you.

You need to man up dude. All the things you have listed were completely under your control. Nothing you said implies that your celibacy is involuntary.

Learn two things that have helped me:

"Use the force, Luke." (i.e. your body probably knows how to get women, even if your head doesn't).


"Outcome Independence" You think of this one woman as the goal. If you want to get laid, pussy is the goal. You need to exist in a place where 'this one girl' isn't what is important.

If you think of her like that, you will have an unhappy relationship.

[–][deleted] 5 points5 points | Copy

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[–]dreckmal3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

You will get there. It takes time to absorb and chew on what information there is, and the desire to change is more important than the info is.

In the past 6 months I have become more aggressive, direct and confident, basically just by reading and digesting the information on this sub, and where i have been linked to.

And the women eat that shit up.

Hang in there dude.

[–]Senior Contributorexit_sandman2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

1) Don't date the same woman for months without getting anywhere - odds are that you're in her friendzone by now. Try to get to know where you are with her, and if she doesn't consider you potential mating material anymore, don't pursue her any further. If necessary, cut off all contact.

2) As shitty as this may sound: Pick "practice girls" - girls whose rejection doesn't hurt because they're less than awesome.

(I wish I had known these two points in my bad old days)

[–] points points | Copy

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[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy

Drop this particular woman though, long lost, no social proof to be gained.

[–] points points | Copy

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[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy

Exactly, no matter what age you are, whatever attraction she might've had in the past has now faded because you took so long to escalate, I pray to God that you aren't paying for her shit.

Usually when you meet women you need to make it clear what your intentions are from the get-go, evidently this hasn't happened here. Even more so if you haven't "dropped any hints" or teases about you wanting to fuck her because you're laid back. Ditch her.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points | Copy

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[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Also, don't be tricked by the sunk cost fallacy. Just because you've been hanging around with her for ages - that does not mean you should keep trying. It's better to cut your losses now.

Read the sidebar as always. It's obvious that you've skipped or skimmed a lot of it at best, this is all basic stuff when it comes to interactions between yourself and other women.

[–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (21 children) | Copy

Its very simple.

Biology gives women assymetrical control over sex.

This cannot be changed. It can only be balanced out.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

That has nothing to do with this debate - women do not choose who they are attracted to. Attraction is not a choice. Women could have 100% control over the sexual market (which they don't, but let's say they did) and they still wouldn't be able to NOT get tingles for a certain set of qualities. They have very limited ability to change their selection methodology, meaning that regardless of their assymetrical control, they will always select for the same group of traits.

You can argue that some men can just never cultivate confidence, status, a physique, good body language, etc. And people are doing that. (And I won't start that debate again). I will concede that most incels probably cannot develop all of these traits to the degree it would take to fuck the hottest girl in the club. But we are not talking about being "alpha fucks" for a harem of women. We are just talking 1 sexual experience with any tier of woman (which will hopefully lead to more as the incel then begins to buy in to his own potential).

[–][deleted] -5 points-5 points | Copy

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

Not really.

The exercise of the behaviors which women select for is limited, by, of all people, other men.

See, that's where the problem arises. Women buy the loyalty of men they don't desire to enact policies and laws they cognatively approve of but which restrain the actions they select for. When women didn't have full franchise it wasn't a problem, the supplicating beta fools were easily checked. But once women had the vote, any hope of holding back the stupidity while playing within the framework of the state was lost.

Now, the only fix is revolution.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

That will not happen, the entropy of a culture is continuously increasing. You cannot limit women as you can not put black people in chains or save the roman empire during it's last stages. The only paradigm change will happen as a aftermath of a cultural war, the culture with less entropy usually wins, probably the Chinese, but I wouldn't count out the Indians or Arabs either.

Non of these cultural and political issues actually undermines significantly a woman's actual biological pursuit, yes an actual relationship will be fraught with cognitive dissonance on her part, which of course you will have to manage, but ultimately the emotional security she will get from a red pill relationship will win out in the long term. Of course she could get the marriage itch, around 30. At that point you can commit if you have a child or upgrade to a newer model with fewer issues if you don't.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

That will not happen

The only paradigm change will happen as a aftermath of a cultural war

You overlook one thing.

America is not one culture.

It's at least two. Some have argued as many as eleven.

We can have a cultural war without a foreign invasion. We've already had one.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Western Anglo Saxon individualist culture, not American per se, it's origins are from Britain at the time of the industrial revolution. "Americanism" is just a iteration, sorry to shit on your exeptionalism.

I never said actual war or anything that would disrupt global trate, to many important people would loose money,I assure you that will not happen.

No, the culture war is more about values and hearts rather than bullets and dead people. Like the current frictions between the Chinese and the Koreans currently within Asian countries. Or the existential revolutions among the arab world.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

asd1100 : I am not American

And it shows.

Yeah, that's not how it is in the countryside.

My family is from Norway, my neighbors are descended from people from Norway, and quite frankly I think Iowa would be better off independent. We'll take our farms and go, and the rest y'all on the coast can starve and learn to do something useful besides bitch about made up shit like microagressions (WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?; and when someone first made this up, why didn't the first person they said it to slap them with a rolled up newspaper and say "NO, BAD").

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy

being incel made me just gave up and don't even try anymore.

[–]1Zackcid0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy


[–]8732337838732870 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Learned helplessness theory is the view that clinical depression and related mental illnesses may result from a perceived absence of control over the outcome of a situation. (from wikipedia)

They did experiments (before stricter ethics) where they had a dog in a room. They put an electrical jolt through say 1/2 the floor to zap the dog. The dogs would very quickly learn that when they were zapped, they should move to the safe 1/2 of the floor. That was the normal reaction.

With other dogs, they would zap the entire floor, so it had no escape from the jolt. They would zap it again, and again, while it tried - but failed - to find safety. Eventually, they would sit and cower in place while they were zapped. Even when the safe 1/2 of the floor was reintroduced (say the safe 1/2 was a different color than the dangerous 1/2, so they should know it was safe), they would not move from the bad section. Even with safety several feet away, they would whimper and cower and sit on the bad section and get zapped over and over again. They had lost their normal, healthy self-protective behavior.

Do you see the point i'm getting at with relation to incels? When you get shot down, and avoided, and laughed at over and over and over again, they become like the poor dog. Perhaps they might even have a fluke and have a girl that's interested in them and trying to flirt with them/send them signals, but at that stage they're too far gone to see what's right in front of them.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yea. I remember learning about this study. And yeah, when you're too far gone you don't even care to try anymore.

[–]Carkudo-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

Exactly. At some point you've tried so much and failed so much that you simply don't believe in success enough to keep trying. Especially since you're essentially trying the same thing all the time. And no, the celibacy doesn't become voluntary at this point. Incel isn't a term of rigorous research. There is no authority controlling it that can tell you you can only use the word after having failed with every single woman in existence.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yea better to stay away from women than get your hopes up.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy

Having sex isn't the same as solving depression. For guys who have real depression and as a result cannot actually put any consistent action into place regardless of how hard they try, then sure, that is an exception. For guys who are extremely low SMV (completely broke, very fat, ugly, no social skills, no fashion sense, bad area for sex) then sure, they cannot get sex regardless of what they do. They likely built up those habits before they were even teenagers and had no real ability to avoid becoming what they became. So OK, they are a counterpoint to my idea.

But when you become an adult you become responsible for changing your personality if you don't like it. Anyone without a serious medical issue can lose weight, build muscle, etc, and have a reasonably attractive body. Anyone can groom themselves better, improve their skin through diet, and wear fitting clothes that work together. Like I said in a different post not everyone can make it rich, but everyone who has time to be complaining about being incel on the internet has the ability to make enough money that it doesn't disbar them from pussy.

For guys with disorders where they cannot learn social skills or truly cannot lose weight or truly cannot go out... then sure, they are incel. But how many incels are actually trying and doing all the right things? You cannot choose to SUCCEED at the right things, but you can choose to try them. I'm sorry that this has become considered a self-help platitude on TRP, but I stand by it: no matter how ugly / low SMV you are, WITH ENOUGH TIME AND MOTIVATION you can get laid. (Unless you have a real medical issue stopping you, but even then I know guys in wheelchairs who fuck.) Time and motivation are two commodities that you can choose to put in, regardless of your SMV.

And from all the self-identified incels who stopped by on my thread to explain their decision, it seems like they were pretty honest about just not thinking the time was worth it, or just not having the motivation. Which is fine, they are making a conscious choice.

Find me an incel who has been working out for 2+ years consistently, goes out at least once per week, does approaches when he can, eats healthy, reads, and puts effort into building normal non-game friends too. Find me someone who has been trying to do that and has stayed consistent - and still can't get laid. Every incel I've met in RL or the internet is not actually trying - they SAY they are trying, they may believe they are trying, but when you look at their life, all these interesting things pop up. They don't work out frequently, they have no sustained motivation to go out (just like working out some weeks they are super into it, other weeks they couldn't care less), and they never actually talk with the women around them and take advantage of opportunities to gain some social experience.

As I said in my post, I am not doubting that there are people who cannot get laid, I am saying that they are completely responsible for that choice. There does exist a series of behaviors that if carried out over enough time, would net the guy some sex. He will never likely be as good as a natural or someone who has a higher potential SMV, and he isn't likely to be pulling tens. To say that would be feelgood bullshit.

But to say this guy could get laid if he carried out the right behaviors for 1-2 years is not feel good bullshit. And I'm not counting "dry spells" as incel - I never promised consistency of results, or that the results would come quickly. I said it would take a while for guys who were truly socially shunted or low SMV to make the climb.

Also, logically, if you are an incel, which mentality does it serve you to have? Let's say you buy in to my "self help platitude" - what is the worst case? You lose some flab, gain some muscle, get some experience in social interaction, meet some friends even if you cannot keep them, and meet some women even if you cannot fuck them. You are likely more out of your head, more knowledgable about human interaction, and it can only help you later in life when future opportunities with women present themselves. I do not what know what you mean when you say that "buying in" and believing you hold the keys to change will just get you in a deeper hole - even if it doesn't fix the problem, it is a damn sight better than nothing, yes?

Now let's say you don't buy in, and you believe that all this PU / self help / TRP shit cannot actually work for you because of X Y and Z rationalizations. Well, you are right, but what is the likely result? Escapism and avoidance. It is like women who believe that they cannot lose weight and improve their health because diets are scams. In reality, yes some people are in this boat where due to hormonal imbalances or thyroid problems they actually cannot shed the weight, but wouldn't you say that the majority of these women are voluntarily fat? They are unwilling to confront the tough truths and make tough decisions to get the goal that they want. They may actually prefer being fat and indulgent to being healthy and having to change all of their behaviors.

From all the descriptions of incels in these comments, I'm thinking most incels are this way. Not because I'm judging them, but just look - or even read the story in the side bar. The prefer to be the way they are because of the various comforts of that position, they aren't actually employing any TRP or PU or SH principles in their life, and therefore you cannot say their existence disproves the general idea of self-improvement and game. When the pain of being the way they are is greater than what they perceive as the "pain" of changing, they change, and it may take a while, but it often happens very quickly. Like I said in my post, after the mental switch happens, the real life switch does happen eventually. In the sidebar "confessions of an incel" after he swallows the pill and chooses to be in the "bitter but optimistic about the future" stage, he winds up fucking some girl in a nightclub. Most of these incels obviously won't get that result so quickly, but they wouldn't know, because they never actually try.

[–]FinnianWhitefir2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

I really appreciate what you've written today, in your thread and here. It was really exactly what I needed to hear and be confronted with. I'd bet good money I'm the oldest virgin incel here, I've propped up myself claiming I was learning a ton here and it's really helped me in explaining the women I know, but it's slowly sunk in that I still spend all my nights in my apartment doing nothing.

I absolutely agree that it's a choice, that we are raised to believe this is easy, safe, and normal. There's a lot of guys raised to believe that they aren't worth anything, that it is perfectly fine to never have a girlfriend and never enjoy things, and that you have to prove yourself to women to get them as a prize.

You really brought me down to earth and confirmed that I should be spending time putting this into action as much as I spend time philosophizing about it, and that I should be spending time improving myself in this regards as much as I spend improving my career and improving my mind.

Thank you.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Appreciate the comment man. The feeling of getting out of your head and just doing it is so good that its a reward in itself. When you philosophize so much and your mind keeps doing reruns of the same damn info, the same scenarios, the same "what ifs", it eventually becomes such a heavy burden on you, a cage. I was the same way about manning up and quitting my job to go pursue something I cared about. Even if I had failed in that endeavor, I think the mental bonus of not having to spend another year thinking "what if" and hearing about all these other cool guys going and doing something cool would have been well worth it. That clarity, even if I suffered financially in the immediate future, ultimately led me to being able to make more money in the long run because my brain was able to grow again. For me spending too much time in this "woulda coulda shoulda" mode where you just ingest books of info and never act was not only painful, it was basically creating this hamster growth in my brain.

My point is even if you fail for a whole year or two and break my theory about incels, then it will have been well, well worth it to try. And hopefully RP isn't at the point where that has become "pie in the sky feel good cliches".

[–]Carkudo-2 points-1 points  (4 children) | Copy

Your whole point hinges on the idea that all attractiveness problems are solvable. Your argument boils down to "Assume I am right. Therefore I am right"

If you're trying to convince yourself, why are you doing it in public?

If you're trying to help someone, I assure you that repeating a million times that my (I'm about as incel as they come) problems are solvable isn't going to make them solvable.

If you're trying to start an anti-incel circlejerk, then... why?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

One question - I asked in my post to point me to a so called incel who has been actually going out every week for a year, working out for a year, eating healthy for a year, and putting this theory into practice for a year. Find me someone with no mental or medical conditions that hard-wall his progress who has not gotten laid with consistent application of all of the above, over a time frame significant enough to create change. How many approaches have you done this month? Honestly - if you have been going balls out for a year, you've gotten a decent body, you have decent body language, and you honestly do approach and try to close, and working hard to build up friends in general too - and you still can't get laid after 1 year of doing that, I will delete all my posts on the subject. I'll admit you are right about incels being forced into celibacy with no way out no matter what they do.

Find me ONE, just ONE person who fits that description.

You can't. You never will - the proof is in all the incels who responded to my thread and this thread, and people talking about the incels they know . This "oh woe is me, there is nothing I can ever do that will get my dick wet, I am just such a fuck up that even if I grinded and grinded this shit for years, I just wouldn't be able to overcome the psychological damage of being a virgin / BP / whatever." is HAMSTERING. It is a plain and simple way for people who are incel and NOT doing something about it to feel justified in not doing something about it.

I could understand if I was saying "you too can fuck beautiful women TODAY!" I could understand if I was saying that incels could become naturals. You may never reach that level. If I said incels could fix their shit in a month, that would be me talking out of my ass. But I am saying over months or YEARS depending on the individual, IF they do the right things with discipline and effort. My whole point is that every single self-identified incel is NOT doing any of those things with meaningful consistency, and therefore they are choosing with their actions to remain celibate, regardless of how badly they may 'feel' they want to change. If that doesn't help you out, then I'm truly sorry man.

[–]Carkudo-2 points-1 points  (2 children) | Copy

Find me someone with no mental or medical conditions that hard-wall his progress

No. A medical condition is exactly what's hard-walling me from solving at least part of my severe problems with attractiveness, though I can't speak for all incels, obviously. I'm not going to let that invalidate my issues just because some random dude on TRP arbitrarily decided to exclude cases like mine from the definition of incel. And neither will anyone else.

Like I said, you're going the "Assume I'm right" route. You want to prove that incel doesn't exist, so you invent a definition that serves just such a purpose. What's your goal here? Rhetoric for the sake of rhetoric?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Ok. Have you been going out, approaching, and lifting. And are you in a situation where you could feasibly choose to do all 3. You are dodging my main argument and picking at what you claim to be the tone of my argument.

[–]Carkudo-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yes, I had been doing exactly that for over five years by the time I stopped.

ALso, I'm not dodging your main argument. I'm saying your main argument is worthless because it's reliant on an arbitrary and very specific definition that you pulled out of a hole in your body.

[–]comefromspace5 points6 points  (7 children) | Copy

You can't just walk out your door one day and say "I've decided not to be an incel. Time for sex!"

That's what hookers are for. Blame your culture if it doesn't condone it.

[–]Senior Contributorexit_sandman3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy

If you ask me, hookers don't count in the same way sexbots wouldn't.

[–]comefromspace6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy

Then your problem is not celibacy, but the need for validation.

[–]Senior Contributorexit_sandman2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

Well, I've equated being incel with being a virgin, and in that particular case it's probably a bit more complicated. First and most, it's a head thing, and it's different from person to person: some may say "awesome, now I am a man!" after the act and benefit from that experience.

For others, it's intertwined - they see buying the services of a prostitute as an admission of inferiority because they couldn't get laid otherwise. Don't tell me that's good for one's game.

[–]comefromspace2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

That is a different aspect. You talk about "inferiority because they couldn't get laid otherwise". Inferiority with respect to what? other men. So it's really not just validation; but the desire to be part of the sportfucking crowd. The validation of the woman is not enough; sex in the west is a system of differentiation, and becoming more and more a competition among men. Instead of this idiotic competition, you can just get your rocks of with some hookers and move on with life.

There are very few men who are unworthy of women; don't kid yourselves, women are not any better at all.

[–]Carkudo0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Hookers are women too, and just as driven to dislike and shame unattractiveness. Someone who can comfortably have sex with a hooker when she's disgusted by him probably wouldn't be bothered by lack of sex in the first place.

[–]comefromspace0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

too many assumptions in 2 sentences.

[–]Carkudo0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The first sentence is from my experience.

[–]greycloud242 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

i would like to point out that there are many voluntary celibates who are happy with being in the middle of a dry spell and are working on themselves and at the same time trying to find the RIGHT woman for them. yes AWALT, but the background society determines what is and what is not hypergamy. there are some very reasonable personality types that are less common in the world of today than they were in the world a decade ago. the world is constantly changing.

the idea of incel is a grey term. any guy would settle down for the perfect woman, but people's definitions of what is and is not acceptable in a woman is different for different individuals. its not just about personal improvement, you also have to access to the type of person that is worth working for. until then we should all be trying to improve our own situations. working out, keeping up practice at being socially adept, and working on furthering you career is good advice for men regardless of if they are seeking sex or not.

tl;dr quit assuming everyone wants what you want. and shaming men into following your standards is a blue pill feminist tactic, drop that shit.

[–]puaSenator2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy


I've never had one, but I am not against the idea. If I was put into a position where I wanted sex but couldn't get it, I, just like everyone else, has the option to buy a call girl for an hour.

However, you can't buy compassion and companionship... Well technically you can, but we can't all afford a yacht.

[–]ialdabaoth1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

However. Note that RedPill will give betas the power to become alpha, but it will NOT give omegas the power to stop being omegas.


/kill me.

[–]SgtBrutalisk1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

The philosophy behind the term "incel" is what's bothering me. When you think about it, how many things in your life have you consciously chosen? Your genes, for example, determine your health and can be permanently damaged by your mother's diet. You can end up with lower IQ because she did drugs during pregnancy. So, are you "inret" - involuntarily retarded? TRP isn't about labels, it's about changing your position in life.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (11 children) | Copy

I think drrrrrr had a valid point and one extremly important for a lot of people around here. They use the red pill to patch their ego, to bask in the hate and deflect from their pathetic lives with rethoric.

You compared being an incel with depression, I beg to differ, if you go out 2 times a week (not primarily to pick up, but to have fun and if the opportunity arises, you try to run a line or two) and learn a shitty joke and use it at least 2-3 times a day on your way to work, in a month you more than likely solved your you solved your celibacy. It won't be a top shelf chick, but everyone has to start somewhere. Now a lot of people with depression would give years of their life for some quick routines that can solve their issue. And even with their much more persistent condition, giving up is ridiculous, life has just to much potential.

If you are here, and understand the red pill, and you're not at least trying and failing, you missed the whole point. You can know the rulebook by hearth, but if you don't play the game it's all useless.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Yes, exactly, this is what I was trying to say, using the RP ideas to justify a lifestyle of opting out / escapism is still hamstering. It's still swallowing a BP. If you use the rhetoric to convince yourself to not try and then use these principles like 80/20 and hypergamy to construct this elaborate fantasy world where it makes sense to just wallow rather than try, you are swallowing the BP. The BP is escapism and rationalization of that escapism. It might sound cool to be like "well, I'm confronting the reality of my situation when I say I just am a incel for life, that's my bitter RP to swallow", but this is the most hamstery logic I have ever encountered on TRP. It is a form of special snowflake thinking.

Plenty of losers far more fucked up than most of the incels who responded have found success with women (although the fact that they were willing to 'buy in' to the idea of PU or RP and just make it happen, no matter how hard means that they weren't losers after all). Hell our side bar has a story about an extreme incel who at the age of 30 fixed his shit, despite being submerged in BP for 3 decades. Not believing that you can fuck when all around you people cut from the same or ever worse matter than you are fucking... is just making a really shitty choice in order to avoid work and preserve a ego / victim identity.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The point of life is to win at it, you win at it by enjoying it. It's not magic you already know it's true.

That is why we have an intrinsic hate for losers, they fail, complain and wallow in their misery. And because we are highly empathic creatures (double that for women) these attitudes are infectious, so we instinctively avoid these types of people and gravitate towards the happy, satisfied, tenacious and the accomplished.

Some want to go MGTOW for ideological reasons, I get that, politically I support them 100% and they are better men than me for not using the matrix for their own hedonism, but do it for the right reason, not just as an excuse to reinforce your ego. Go on sexcations and plow everything that has a smile and a vagina. When you come back focus on something productive, be a success you would admire, enjoy life on your terms. Don't let bitterness dominate you, you're just reinforcing women stereotypes, making a point of how crucial they are to our happiness and becoming a propaganda tool to be used by other women into corralling men into slavery marriage , which IS THE EXACT OPOSITE OF WHAT YOU WHERE TRIYNG TO DO!

Hate is the ugliest thing you can find in feminists, political extremists and religious nut jobs. It is only justifiable in a red pill man in the early stages of internalizing the red pill, and the resulting internal conflict this generates. If you hold on to blue pill views that hate will never fade and it will repel women, make you blind to the good things, and limit you from making balanced rational decisions when you do find a girl.(oneitis turns into unicorning)

[–]Carkudo-1 points0 points  (8 children) | Copy

It's been 10 years since I decided to do just that. I now have a good paying job, know how to get along with people, have no serious social issues etc. but still can't get laid. The moment I try to escalate a casual situation into something serious, women pull away FAST. They simply aren't attracted. It's especially visible because the past few years I really haven't even been trying. I gave up. It's sort of both funny and painful to see women distance themselves, or get angry, or get offended after mistakenly believing I'm trying to make a move.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy

Wrong causality.

can't get laid.

because the best thing I can say about myseelf is:

I now have a good paying job, know how to get along with people, have no serious social issues etc.


Also, it sounds like you are still aproaching women with the frame: look, I am good enough to fuck. Try: I want to fuck.

[–]Carkudo0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

Also, it sounds like you are still aproaching women with the frame: look, I am good enough to fuck. Try: I want to fuck.

No, I don't, and no, it doesn't even sound like that. You're just trying to fit my account into a frame that will validate your own preconceived notion.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

I try to escalate a casual situation into something serious,

[–]Carkudo-2 points-1 points  (4 children) | Copy

Yep. Nowhere do I say that I'm being a desperate groveling beta, but that's what you assume and pick a random sentence as "proof".

I'm going to be rude now and tell you one small piece of wisdom: usually it's better to shut up than to grasp at straws

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

You try to escalate a "casual conversation" into "something serious" or in translation, "please like me enough to fuck me".. That is the definition of beta.

Yeah I should shut up.

Do the comunity a favor and stop comenting.

Do yourself a favor and stop being a contrarian. Let go of your "style" try different "personas", different enviroments and different types of girls.

And I'll grasp another straw because this conversation is over anyway: see a hooker, ASAP.

[–]Carkudo0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

or in translation

Dude, if you're going to just keep making shit up to validate yourself, this isn't going to be a productive conversation.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

It's a troll dude. He has responded to every single guy in this thread who is on the "people have choices in life" side of the coin with this exact same thing. He apparently has a great job, is attractive, has social skills, but when you ask him does he approach women / when was the last time he actually tried, his says some inflammatory shit then vanishes.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I know, but if you don't point out his reatardednes, actual new reds will absorb his attitude to validate their difficulties.

The karma system is broken with the influx of new blues/women/trolls and more modding will just repress dialog. Think of it as giving back.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Virginity in and of itself is a concept, back from a time when your sexual status meant a great deal. I guess you could argue that the label "incel" or "virgin" is used to distinguish people who have not yet experienced sex, but in reality its not a huge factor in your happiness. I think its incredibly wrong to define yourself by a label you hate and pertains to an experience not necessary for your survival. Putting sex on a pedestal turns you into a madman and quite frankly, having sex wont solve the fucked up mentality a lot of people who complain about being virgins have. At least thats what psychologists said about Elliot Rodgers.

[–]AdmiralVonJackass0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I've transitioned between incel to indifferent and back over the years. Lifting has gotten me more attention, but that is just one tiny step on the ladder. I'm no slacker either. 195lbs 5 foot 11. Pretty much right in that aesthetic zone before you get on gear.

It has given me the opportunity to have enough conversations to realize that my personality is undesirable in a sexual way. I get respect in the workplace, men enjoy my humor, but women are just put off by something.

I've tried not giving a fuck. Doesn't do much. Tried beta game, got a lot of hangouts, but no closes. I just don't want it enough to press as hard as it seems to take to close the deal. If the spark starts to die, I just get bored and say something ignorant to kill the interaction.

Its not about the sex at this point. Its about trying to solve the puzzle, and cure the illness. Probably my standards are too high, but what is the point of fucking people you don't find attractive. Seems to defeat the purpose of the whole thing.

Being an incel is just not getting what is going wrong, even if it is something that's obvious. Guys can make soap box rants about how you're just being an idiot, but they don't know shit. Just cause you stumble into some night game pussy doesn't make you a Casanova. It mean you were in the right place at the right time.

Thinking about it, part of me doesn't want to succeed with women. I have this vision of myself as this loner who does his own thing and shuns the need for human approval, as silly as it is. When I'm with a woman, it is very unexciting unless I'm acting like a jackass or pervert. Anything less is boring to the point of agony.

Its been so long since I've had actual sex that it has ceased to be a motivator. I forget what it is even like. It is just this vague, reason-less urge that arises from my subconscious whenever a sexy woman is around. What would I even do with one if I got her alone for sex. Apologize for wasting her time and leave I suppose.

It isn't even a source of strong despair anymore, but more of a sense of bafflement. Even after putting some considerable thought and effort into this project, nothing has come of it. There have been unintended benefits, such as getting into fitness, sales, the manosphere, and some self help material. No sex though. Hell I've had about 15 potential partners in the past 2 years, and they all fizzle in the same way due to my lack of enthusiasm for the close.

It is like being an Incel becomes your lifestyle. In some weird way you just settle into it, and piece together whatever daily pleasures you can. Hell, my brother is married and miserable, so are women really the cure to unhappiness, or are they just more gas on the fires of dysfunction?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

One thing I've noticed about popular words and phrases is that no amount of arguments over their definition seems to change their popularity. Changing popular terms seems like it usually requires massive energy or advertising, unless you somehow hit a cultural sweet spot where a new word or phrase catches on to replace an old one. Redefining a term to be more rational and repeatedly-stating that personal definition (without necessarily hoping it catches on) seems easier to me.

I like the term ghost as opposed to incel for heterosexual men who are single, but for some reason aren't fully interested in working on game and pursuing women. I remember studies where virgins in high school were found to have the highest IQ's, with people who have had less sex right below them; if a serious love of learning is present, I'm thinking these same conditions can be met in asexual or sexually-aversive adults (not necessarily virgins). I don't think this study is a commentary on sex itself causing less intelligence, but the time spent building up to sex or securing it for the future as a coping mechanism for romantic loneliness, rather than the more isolating endeavors of curiosity and creation.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If i was incel, i would just order prostitutes.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

But at the same time, women are not going to knock on your door asking for sex.

I do feel that the incel mindset is a bit of a catch 22 though. The person thinks "women don't want me, they despise me" and so forth, lowering this person's self-esteem and producing insecurity, so then.. YUP! Women don't want sex with them.

There's a multi-step process though, you don't just go from incel to having sex with a woman.

Take a good long look at yourself in the mirror (literally and metaphorically).

Are you in good shape?

Do you need a haircut?

Do you need to shave?

Do you need a new wardrobe?

Do you have friends? If not then why?

Do you have ANY actual hobbies that enable you to meet new people other than things you can do on your own?

Can you hold an enjoyable conversation with someone?

These all play a major role in determining whether you're fuckable or not. People should work on these if they want to have an active sex life and continue doing it until you die. No one is entitled to sex. I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to have sex with a 300 pound woman who sits around eating cheetos, drinking soda, and watching tv all day with no hobbies or personality would you? Don't be a hypocrite; work on yourself and eventually the women will come to you.

This is coming from a man who is VOLUNTARY CELIBATE (for now), that has had a decently active sex life so far.

[–]caamibexp 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

This post is laughable. It is full of awful advice, since it wants to be about seduction (which is evil) but doesn't evil explain what you need for it - immorality and stupidity.

Instead it talks about haircuts and wardrobe. Retarded. Like giving advice "you mustn't try climbing Mount Everest barefooted".

This is the actual cause of incel

That this idiot talks about sex is just another proof of genetic decay article talks about.

If you want to get women break their teeth, spine, legs, everything.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I'm sorry you feel that way. It sounds like you need therapy (don't take that the wrong way, everyone's been there), do you think that's how your father met your mother?

[–]FAwhy-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

why was his post removed? It could have been kept up instead of being removed even if you disagree with his beliefs on what it means to be celibate. I agree with a lot of your points, but his post had merit as well.

[–]UncleAugie-5 points-4 points  (44 children) | Copy

Your last paragraph negates your entire point.

"Be pragmatic. Approach this like you would any other problem. It can sometimes take a long time before you break through to the other side, but once you're there, things get a lot easier. The confidence of getting laid can turn into a hundred lays very quickly."

YOu say approach the problem and you will solve it. Problem No Sex, Solution is in the choices you make.

Your standards may be too high, you may need to lose weight, work out, read and be a little more cultured, less socially retarded, more outgoing, more interesting, the choices are yours and no one else.

There is no Incel unless you are physically disabled. Even the Mentally handicapped find their match, they just have to be realistic about their standards. Not every 5 or 6 is going to end up with a 8,9,or 10, sometimes you have to realize you are only worth a 5 or a 6.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 8 points9 points  (43 children) | Copy

The incels are on the path to fixing it when they get here.

I'm referring to the incels of the world.

[–]UncleAugie-5 points-4 points  (42 children) | Copy

Again you point out that by actively choosing to fix the problem yourself you can begin having sex. Ignorance is not an excuse. there is not involuntary celibacy. You are exactly where you are in life by your own choices

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 17 points18 points  (20 children) | Copy

Perhaps you're not getting it, so I'll use an analogy.

Imagine you're in a hedge maze. You're trying to find your way out. Some people take years to get out. Others are tall enough to see over the walls and leave in minutes. Still others have been looking so long they feel hopeless.

The people trapped in the maze do have to do work to get out. But they are not there because they want to be. It's because they don't see a clear way out.

This is involuntary celibacy. The people who don't see a way out.

Yes, getting out is a choice, but imagine if they don't have the red pill for a minute- imagine they've just got a sister and a mom who tell him, oh honey just be yourself. Do what you love, it'll come to you! And he tries and he tries and he tries.

And he fails.

It's not for a lack of trying.

It's because he doesn't even know what to do.

This is involuntary celibacy. It's real. It's the very reason our subreddit exists.

[–]Endorsed ContributorInvalidity1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

All the men in the world have the capacity to be objects of desire, but that doesn't necessarily preclude that once we become desirable that we will automatically get to have sex.

You have to remember, sex is at the discretion of the female, not the male. You don't get to decide whether or not you get to have sex with a woman, she does. Unless she is asking you for sex, then it which case, declining her would deem you a voluntary celibate.

I am certain we can agree that if a woman and a man of relatively equal attractiveness were to ask members of the opposite gender for sex, the woman would have sex more often than the man (if the man were to have any).

[–]UncleAugie-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

Sorry, your theory is still an excuse to play the victim. I'm average looking, Socially outgoing, moderately fit, and somewhat professionally successful. If I wanted a new partner every three weeks for a year it is possible. Being honest with all of them about what I was looking for, never lying to get laid. I have done it, and maintained many of the partners for months at a time. After I had my fill I realized that sex isn't the goal of RP thinking, or "game", but becoming a better human, and then sex just happens. I had/have many men in my life to emulate, not relatives, but people I sought out that I had met socially. I only started have so much sex after I became a better human, giving of myself when I could, expecting nothing in return, honesty at all times, and every day trying to be better than yesterday. Am I always successful, nope, but I realize there will be new opportunists tomorrow, both professionally and in bed. This attitude of nonchalance, air of confidence, lack of desperation, is attractive to women, and men will follow your lead in professional/team/social situations as well.

[–]Carkudo0 points1 point  (17 children) | Copy

Excuse for what, exactly? For calling myself incel? I don't need an excuse for that. Or anyone's permission. It's just a word that describes the frustrating situation I find myself in - being completely unattractive to seemingly all women, with seemingly no way to drag myself up to a level where I can compete.

[–]UncleAugie0 points1 point  (15 children) | Copy

Have you examined why you believe you are "completely unattractive to seemingly all women"? Are there any things that you could begin to work on a little bit each day so that in a year or two you will be what you think is attractive to women?

[–]Carkudo0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy

Yes, I do know the reasons. No, I don't know of any feasible ways to start increasing my attractiveness. I've tried all the ways I could think of and consistently failed. That's why I consider myself permanently incel and not just in need of some work.

[–]UncleAugie0 points1 point  (13 children) | Copy

When you run into a problem that seems to have no solution, relax, ask thes around you for help, if that isn't working seek out additional resources. We all make choices in how we face every day, sometimes the choices we make lead us to feel trapped. This is never the case. Are you willing to change everything in you life to become a better human. Becoming a better human will get you laid, nothing more nothing less. If you ask, I will give you some advise. I promise you won't like it, but it will work.

[–]Carkudo-1 points0 points  (12 children) | Copy

When you run into a problem that seems to have no solution, relax, ask thes around you for help, if that isn't working seek out additional resources.

That's how I came to believe nothing will ever work. I feel like I've tried everything.

Becoming a better human will get you laid, nothing more nothing less.

Unless the best human you can be is still inferior to almost every other male in terms of sexual attractiveness.

As for advice, yes, any advice is welcome, but let me tell you how this goes. You will give me advice, it will turn out to be something I've already tried, that will anger you, so you will accuse me of lying.

[–]UncleAugie1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy

No because what I will suggest has nothing to do with women

[–]Carkudo0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy

You mean, you're going to suggest something that will help me not think so much of my inferiority and unattractiveness?

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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