I think TRP strategy consists of a plateau straight TRPers naturally work past where we gay men fail

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January 2, 2017

If by percentage alone you work on the fact that predominant amount of gay guys are effeminate, and also consider the flip side where predominant amount of lesbians are tomboyish, even if you assume large amount of them have "seen the light" and work towards an exterior congruent to their biological gender, I think it's safe to say that at the end of the day the core essence of homosexual people remains trans to their biological gender, where gay guys have the natural inclination to be feminine and indulge in being desired by an initiator (vice versa for lesbians in desiring others, though as with what research tells us there's more leeway and malleability of their core).

I've been looking around this sub and in particular user should_ raises some good points. this post here talks about the "ultimate desire of a gay man is to submit, but should aim to be masculine". It seems to me that the ceiling here is that being "alpha" is in line with the natural inclination of straight guys but not that of gay guys. The masculine exterior we put on can be convincing, and with years even form a thickened shell around the core personality, but the feminine side is forever something we have to wrestle with. When looking around psychology forums, kink forums, and even by listening around straight guys, you can tell that when the topic of sexual polarity is raised, the majority of straight guys completely enjoy being the aggressor, the ravisher, the impregnator, the chaser, or whatever term the active side you choose. A minority have dominatrix fantasies, but it seems to me more of a fetish than a predominant thing.

For straight guys, their ceiling is then simply confidence and game. They may exhibit feminine behaviour, but when it comes to sexuality, they the indulgence is completely in being the initiator, like this "flame" mentioned again by another of should_'s post. For gay guys however, you have both of those to work past, but it remains that as long as you can find someone more "alpha" than you would would be willing to submit to them. I don't think straight men ever have to struggle with this. Even if they meet an assertive women who rides them aggressively, the "enjoyment (or fantasy) that the guy derives from" is ultimately still that he is "pleasing his woman", instead of "being a receptacle by which his woman derives pleasure from", which seems to be is the preferred fantasy of the gay guy.

From what I'm reading about bisexuals, versatiles and tops, both the "masculine" and "feminine" side is accessible to them, but if given the chance to be with a man, they would prefer choosing to be feminine to their idealized alpha. Where we are forever seeking possibility of the archetype of man in bed, that straight men don't with women, speaks to me of a tragic existence, where there is no true inner peace.

The four routes of trying to resolve this aren’t ideal. We resign ourselves to be an anomaly and commit suicide, which hurt our family members, we resign to ourselves to a life of solitude, keeping sane with other aspects of humanity like educating the next generation, giving to society or raising adopted young, fully accepting that the feminine core is going to be a part of all of us gay guys and accepting femininity in another partner, or, the TRP method, which may work for straight men, but ultimately is still the construction of a persona (a skilful persona with time and experience, but still a persona) and seek a relatively more feminine guy, trying to take upon the mantle of being the ideal man, but forever hoping someone else comes along to relieve you of this role so you can be the beta to their alpha. It feels to me to be the same kind of compromise unattractive people make with life, that sounds horribly tricky to resolve and makes hermits of us all.

I think at some level, all gay guys recognise this subconcsciously or consciously and adapt in the above four ways. That's why you get people saying "masc for masc" which seems like the ultimate chicken race to see who cracks their masculine exterior first and if it's enough of a dealbreaker for their partner. The two philosophies that gay guys seem to have is the same as the struggle of many others in society- do you recognise the rules and game it well, or do you try to be a trailblazer and forge your own path. The "masc for masc" guys are the gamers and the feminists deriding this approach try to break the game for a different one. Neither side seem to be one that will bring happiness to a person.

Perhaps actual gay tops will have a different opinion- i don't think they'd ever enter this sub though, as I think only people who struggle with this would seek the sub out in the first place. I do know that masculine sexual indulgences are fully locked out for me- I can read about it and perhaps process what it is logically, but would never be able to feel it as acutely as similar to sensations of discover what orgasm feels like upon reaching puberty, or being unable to imagine the pains that labour bring about until it has happened to you.

Post Information
Title I think TRP strategy consists of a plateau straight TRPers naturally work past where we gay men fail
Author aThrowawayathrowa
Upvotes 10
Comments 10
Date 02 January 2017 12:54 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit altTRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/163402
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/altTRP/comments/5ll3yw/i_think_trp_strategy_consists_of_a_plateau/
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[–]Mideous3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy

I have always hated the idea that homosexual men are auto associated with being fem and submissive at heart. If you are masculine, then its acting. So much so the OP seems to see all gay men 'in waiting'.

That is the majority but as a gay guy who utterly enjoys being the penetrator with absolutely, 0 desire to be penetrated me being recognized and represented feels hopeless. Which makes me want out.

The science is new, but their absolutely must be a tie/reason why the majority of gay men love and desire to be submissive. I know it may sound as if I am looking down on this let me assure you I am not. And I'm also not trying to put the idea in your head, I'm some kind of cave man — because I'm not.

I just feel as if what is seen and know as gay is something I do not fit into. I dislike how many different types of heterosexual men are allowed to exist, but the homosexual male is segregated and text book.

In order for you to get a feel for my mentality, I should add that I'm not attracted to penises .I've also never fell the need to be submissive for anyone. I am a tall and big guy — the closest I come to being submissive is 'stepping back' so I don't scare people.

I have never had a masc4masc fetish. I've always liked fem/soft guys. Not saying I don't like masc as well — a handsome guy is just that. Muscle is nice — would never deny that. However, the most full filling/wildest sex I have ever have been with fem/sub guys. It wasn't until I got older until I realized just how much I loved CD's.

I didn't seek out this sub because I had issues with my masculinity. I came here because I was looking for a sub that wasn't so PC but I some what found that in 4Chan.

As far as me swallowing any pill. I won't entertain any of that at this point in my life. All of my friends are straight and seem to be stuck in the world of heterosexuality.

[–]aThrowawayathrowa[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

I think there's no simple happy solution to this. You, who are a minority in an already minority group, struggles to identify with similar people and to be heard, while we struggle against our nature to appease society's (and our mutual) revulsion of us.

However, I do think that even in this lonely existence, you can at least take solace in having more sexual capital than flamers by pure comparison of supply to demand. However, that's not to say that this is a race of who gets to be pitied more.

I dislike how many different types of heterosexual men are allowed to exist, but the homosexual male is segregated and text book.

On a tangent, I have a colleague who tells me he's straight when I asked him, but has such campy behaviour, including a feminine drawl when speaking, preference of female singers, like of jazz funk dance styles, gossipy topics of conversation and feminine body language. I pointed out those idionsyncracies to him and mentioned that jazz funk has a lot of emphasis on hip, butt and chest movement- signals by which females draw male attention to their chests and butts. He told me he has never noticed any of those idiosyncracies and replied that he doesn't think that people should give gender to body language. I actually had to show him Liam Sullivan's satirical videos as a visual primer/mirror/case study.

Some tops who I have been with do say that they prefer to be tops/initiators, but they still do express such body language, which makes me sometimes skeptical when some gays claim to be masculine and wondered why other gays were so camp and bitchy. It must take a pretty hefty amount of lack of self-awareness to not notice how one conducts oneself- except that does happen, all the time, with introverts and autistic people. And I guess gay people too.

The thing is though- everything he likes, the kinesthetic movements he enjoy, the music he enjoys, his self-expression, is exactly what I would be inclined to do if I existed outside of societal scrutiny, if I didnn't police my own self-expression constantly, if I didn't possess the understanding that people are drawn to people who to act congruent to their gender- people who fit in. I spent years of my middle and high school life tending to and cutting out feminine body tics to avoid painting myself a big target on my back in a Christian school in Asia. That straight colleague says that he feels "powerful" when he dances jazz funk. I get the same feeling, and I get what it feels like. I feel exhilarated when I dance in a feminine way. I like listening to Florence+the Machine and Shakira. Their kinesthetic movements and voices are powerful, but in a feminine way. I have no doubt straight guys feel the same kind of exhilaration with heavy metal and rock, but it's a masculine energy alien to my musical and emotional senses. I have a gay friend who's feminine behaviour becomes increasingly apparent the more drunk he gets.

"Straight" is very much acting for our brand of gayness. No one just talks about its actual nature cause that's lifting the curtains behind the smoke and mirrors. Besides, who's going to get technical and pedantic with you on a dating app? That's not what it's for. Who's going to like a guy who's at best a knockoff version of a girl? Not straight guys. Not most gay guys either.

If I may, if we're not being PC about "we're all in this together and stop dividing and adding labels" and look at the reality of our community, your brand of gayness, the "dominant by nature brand", is definitely more rare than my brand, and I wish to see more blog posts by these kind of guys and what goes on in their heads too. I wished modern feminist theory would accept that and actually be precise with taxonomy instead of giving feel good crap advice like "just be yourself".

TRP is a strategy for the straight guy to express their quinssential sexual self- a distilled version of male self expression (ignoring discussion of whether it makes for good long term romantic relationships). If I think to want to express my quinssential sexual self, it definitely doesn't feel anything close to being a lone wolf whom others gravitate towards for dependence, more of someone with a shining radiance that attracts others- a very distinct female description. It's not flattering at all, and definitely not how you would draw in (good) attention in an average social setting like hobby clubs or at work. That's the part the feel-good PC community don't talk about. In what scenario will such self-expression have your desired outcome? In drag, on stage, or as a femboy prostitute, to attract people with niche fetishes and attraction, whom you will never get to see asking someone like that out after work for a dinner date in a social scenario lest they risk their social standing. As an average person, who the hell would want to go through all that just to weed out the people who aren't interested?

[–]Jobby_jabber points points [recovered] | Copy

It's hard for me to tell how common or uncommon the dominant by nature brand is. I have only a few gay friends, and of those only one is really really dominant. Oddly, he admits that at one point while figuring out his sexuality, he wanted to bottom. My journey was very similar. We both experimented with being the receptive partners in our respective sex lives, and eventually decided being the proceptive or penetrative partner was better.

As it stands, we both exclusively top. Neither of us is affects a feminine demeanor. Speaking for myself, having considered the alternative "branding" as you've called it, I find this way of being much preferable.

Making no judgement about your preferences on the matter, I am honestly curious about your experience with more masculine branded power. Doing things that make me feel like a man feel good, really good. Be it social conditioning or biological, I can't say. You mention rock, and I can relate with that. Listening to a good rock song when I'm in the mood makes me feel grounded in my masculinity. It feels powerful. It's hard for me to understand the experience of someone who does not share that.

[–]aThrowawayathrowa[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

When you listen to rock in the right mood (say, Linkin Park's Numb), does it make you want to stamp your feet, bang your head, tap your fingers? Does it make you want to express masculine behaviour and energy? I understand and am able to process that logically, but emotionally it feels very, very, muted.

On the flip side, when listening to soulful music like Florence's Drumming Song, that has an equally strong bass background, it makes me want to writhe and flail like she does in the music video, like in contemporary dance. To stretch and shrink, to gyrate the hip and swerve the head. It doesn't make me want to airhump, or walk like a bobbling skinhead when I listen to music while commuting.

Essentially, I relate to feminine energy in music more than masculine energy. I don't personally go nuts ove the flagrant style of Lady Gaga or Nicki Minaj in music, but I've seen the music videos and their dance styles are very jazz-punkish, something that echoes inside regardless of how I try to hide it with my external self-representation. You only mostly ever see cross-dressing or feminine-acting straight guys when they're actors performing comedy or imitations, and I don't think it feels, "congruent" with their self expression. It's a form of mockery.

If you extend it a few steps further beyond music preference, I don't think it's far off to say that our brand of gayness is in essence females in men's body, excluding the hangup about feeling alien in our bodies and hate our bodies the way transgender people seem to do.

When my brother and I played pretend as kids as kids are wont to do, I often fantasized and play roles of "damsel in distress". I would clip my blanket around my waist to pretend it was a dress.Because it wasn't a school setting, no one was around to tell me how gross and disgusting it was, and it never occurred to me that it seemed odd and incongruent to how boys behaved.

To me, the alien and strange thing to hear about from gay guys was that they had an "absolutely normal childhood" and "enjoy things other boys enjoyed" and "have always acted masculine". I have no reason to doubt they believe what they are saying is true, but it's also true that drugged, or schizophrenic people do believe their hallucinations are real and there are dark creatures swarming around them, whereas to outsiders they're just sitting in an empty room. I always remained 20% skeptical, whilst keeping in mind that usually people have no reason to lie on topics like these. Just because some people SAY they are masculine, doesn't necessarily they are aware of how they conduct themselves or appear to others when in public.

[–]Jobby_jabber points points [recovered] | Copy

Interesting music, sounds like something my boyfriend would listen to. Not my cup of tea, but not objectionable either. When I listen to rock, most often while driving, it results in some drumming on my steering wheel, minor head bobbing (because lets face it, gotta keep eyes on the road), and occasionally punching the roof of my car. Good rock makes me feel energized and ready to fuck shit up.

I don't always listen to rock though. I'm endlessly interested in all sorts of music and the various emotional resonance they create. Radiohead was a major influence during my formative years and still puts me in an introspective place no other music can. I don't max out on the "fuck shit up" emotion at all times, but I know it's there and it feels deeply masculine. I feel grounded and centered when I experience that.

I also, for a period of time while I was figuring out that guys might be sexually interesting to me, felt a lot of what I think you're describing. I wanted to explore the more commonly portrayed fem side of things because, heck, it was something new. I listened to house music, because that's what they played in the clubs. I danced a lot, though not very well. I dress finely, though nothing riskier than a white button down with no undershirt. It felt liberating in a way, but over time I gravitated back to the more traditional masculine style of being.

Some of it may have been pressure from my friends, no overt, but implicit. Being a man means certain things, and while I'm sure they would have humored me n matter what, I definitely feel more comfortable around them when I'm able to convincingly affect masculinity. That doesn't make it an act though, because I do actually enjoy and prefer the trappings of masculinity.

As for people's self assessment of their own masculinity, I'd always take it with a grain of salt. There are plenty enough straight men who have no particular inclination to act anything but manly who still baffle me with their girly behavior sometimes. No one it 100% in the man zone at all times. I make a conscious effort to be there as much as I can when trying to build attraction with someone.

[–]Narrowminded1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Let me throw out a theory. It seems to me that a lot of tops are people who have been through genuine struggles in their life - issues with serious poverty (although not homeless or starving levels of poverty) for extended periods of time, having to deal with aggressive people in their childhood whether it be an angry father or the boss at your first job being an enormous fuckhead, etc. - just a rough life. These are the people that become hardened. Not always, but most of the time.

I know that sometimes people get spit out in the worst way possible and they're just haunted with depression their whole life and by all rights and accounts they practically don't even exist, but I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about the people you do see, the people who do go out and the people who do live their life.

The people with the struggles seem like they grow up to be tougher and so the position of being a bottom feels somehow unnatural to me.

That said, it seems like for a lot of bottoms, their upbringing wasn't all that bad. I'm sure everyone has suffered at least once in their life, yes, but it also seems to me that the bottoms are often the ones with the mentality to make up their problems.

Let me reiterate that I am in no way trying to apply this to all tops or all bottoms, it's just a theory that it applies to, say, 80%~.

Ever since I seriously got into the dating scene and talked to people about their pasts, their ambitions, and what life was like growing up, what their current concerns are, etc., I've noticed a bit of a trend - and hear me on out this one. Tops actually know what struggling is like, and so they don't really want to go around with fake problems and non-issues being at the forefront of their life, because they, above all else, just don't want to suffer anymore. The bottoms on the other hand seem to absolutely eat that shit up. They do want to suffer. They want everything to be a problem, they want the non-issues to be genuine threats to their life and they're justified every time you reassure them that it's actually not a big deal because "you just don't understand", which makes them suffer even more. For some reason, they just want to suffer.

But, I often wonder if this doesn't go hand-in-hand with their submissive qualities, as well. A lot of bottoms I encounter seem to like a certain level of humiliation. They want the top to "own them" and this is absolutely what the bottom requests 9 times out of 10. It's the most commonplace desire I've encountered in my experience with bottoms. It's not enough to be submissive, they must be owned in the bedroom, and it's so much "hotter" if you as a top showcase that when having sex, whether it be through a collar and a leash or by giving commands and receiving actions, no questions asked.

Understanding it doesn't seem to be hard when it comes to sex, but it seems to go well beyond that. This feels similar to their mantra of desiring undue and constant suffering. I'm not saying that the bottom is having a bad time in the bedroom, but I am saying that it gets to a point where they start to get off on the idea of being the used and abused in just about any context - the sex and fantasy alone stops being enough, they must be used and abused in more facets of their life, but that's often not how life actually is so they either make up problems or magnify non-issues so that it seems like they're always under constant threat of being targeted for some reason or another.

Digging deeper into it, this is probably why it seems like a lot of "masc tops" say "no fems, [...]", because to be "fem" seems to directly go in line with this problem-creating mentality, and it's exhausting for the masc top, because they know it's bullshit, they know it's a non-issue, but if there's to be any kind of relationship, then they have to just deal with it.

Day after day, I cannot seem to find a bottom that seems to genuinely value themselves. They are always under the constant pressure of their own conscious telling them that they're not good for you or anyone. I can't tell you the amount of times I've dated someone and the date went really, really well, and then they just drop off the face of the earth - I've been enlightened a couple of times that it's because they just "don't feel ready" or don't think they'll be able to "work for me."

You know what, though? I guess my point is that it seems like tops are no-nonsense and bottoms are drama queens almost always, but then if that's all I said, the obvious response feels like it would be "no shit, little buddy."

[–]should_0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Hot. What're CDs?

[–]Mideous0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Cross Dresser.

[–]wingedagni0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Very interesting, I need to think about it more, so I apologize for the rambling.

As a bi guy (top only, don't like bottoming), I do the "masc for masc" thing mainly to weed out the ultra effeminate gay guys that are stereotypes of themselves. If I am going to be with a guy, it's because I enjoy masculinity. If I wanted a feminine partner, I would look to a woman. (they do it better) (sub note... the highest praise I can give a woman would be that she is "graceful". I have never met a man (gay or straight) that I would call that. It seems that gay guys think that effeminate intrinsically means bitchy and passive aggressive, and they strive to achieve those qualities)

On another note, I am not sure that I look for the most "masc" guys I can so I can be subservient to them. I do think, however, that I have some issues thinking that I am not the most masculine guy in the world, and therefore value masculine qualities, and over time that valuing led to desire. "I wish I could look / act like that guy" ⇒ "I want to be around that guy because he has attributes that I value" ⇒ "I am attracted to that guy's attributes" ⇒ "etc etc etc". I am a pretty masculine guy in general though, and everyone that I have told I was bi has been shocked and said "I never would have guessed".

In regards to the above, over time I do feel less and less "gay" as time goes on and I work on myself. Lost some weight, lifting at the gym, becoming more stoic, seeing that most super "masc" guys are all faking, etc etc etc... I am more comfortable with me now, and that came from changing myself into what I wanted to be ever since I was a kid. So now, for me, gay sex is just easy sex. Yes, I am still attracted to the male form and I am still attracted to men who have their shit together... "masculine" if you will, but that is a very different feeling than when I am with a woman. Guys seems like (at best) friends where we both benefit each other and enjoy being around each other. Women (in serious relationships) feel completely different.

just my 2c. good read.

[–]aThrowawayathrowa[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

There's no way my vocabulary can put it any more eloquently than "indulgences of the aggressor". I think it's quite a universal experience among gay guys during their childhood (which I think are very good flags of homosexuality, though not exclusively as context is always important) of aversion to crass like trash talking during gaming or sports. I find that straight guys are less inclined to taking trash talking seriously after the event, or even encourage it. For competitive games, their ego and pride are at stake in the way that only guys are (where losing means being 'weak' complete with crowd booing), gay guys would take more in the sense as a way to demonstrate superiority over their peers, in a similar vein to how girls compete.

Of course, there's also the stereotype where they heartily enjoy more lone kinesthetic sports like dancing and figure skating, or at least non-contact ones like badminton or table tennis, but my impression is that it's hard-pressed to find a straight guy who doesn't like to talk about soccer.

Just... femininity bleed out from us in general. You mention this train of thought for "I wish I could act like that guy because he has attributes I value" doesn't work in the same way for gay guys, is my belief. Instead, it is more akin to "this is the value I find attractive, so I assume other gay guys do as well, and in order to attract gay guys this is the only solution". In this scenario, the compatibility is fabricated rather than going along the natural self. I mean, it is tit-for-tat, where you put in the effort to increase sexual capital so it's only fair to expect it of others. Which is why it's hypocritical to criticize this as "not being true to your self", if you expect there be some guy to be attracted to by being masculine but not work on it yourself. Except it is true that it's not being true to your self. That's why it seems like the ultimate catch 22 to me and why TRP may seem worthwhile as a goal, but is ultimately a lonely path to walk down on.

Your paradigm of "I wish I could act like that more" seem to be in line with the masculine pursuit of an ideal. In sexual terms it's something like a flame that desires to consume others, or that that ultiamte fantasy of a straight (I'm not sure about bi guys and forum lurking does not generate enough evidence to extrapolate) is to be an alpha. Despite how gay guys might talk or act on the surface I think their pursuit is more of something like "I wish someone who acts like that would like me", which ultimately is a feminine pursuit, or as what TRP calls it, indulgence in hero worship. This kind of feminine yearning is pervasively seen in Taylor Swift songs. In this case, it's the something that desires to be consumed by a flame. i.e., the ultimate fantasy of a gay guy isn't to be an alpha, and trying to achieve that just feels uncomfortable...in the same way that talking to your parents about their sex life is uncomfortable...where, it's not physically painful, but its illogically hard to achieve and mentally hard to approach.

As a bi guy (top only, don't like bottoming)

I think I have heard of guys talking about not liking bottoming simply because they don't like the physical discomfort that comes with them- not sure if it applies to you. I think the submissive nature is always in there somwhere for gay guys though. It seems to me that there's always going to be an option for you as a bi-guy - you could always choose to express masculine behaviour for a girl without feeling it go against your nature.

It seems that gay guys think that effeminate intrinsically means bitchy and passive aggressive, and they strive to achieve those qualities

If we were to put in in a scale where for a man, you have something like,

Aggressive and judgmental of physical weakness -Crass - Aloof - Sensitive - Gentle and considerate of a partner's needs

And for a woman

Catty and judgmental of social inferiority- Petty - serious - warm - dainty and caring (or in your words, 'graceful')

It seems to me that the misunderstanding isn't that they strive to achieve cattiness as effeminacy to parade how proud they are to be gay, more than when it comes to the negative aspects of human behaviour, they just aren't going to be negative in a masculine way. People just tend to notice it more because it triggers dissonance since their biological appearance is incongruent to the way they are negative, the same way you would notice a lesbian being very flippant with profanity and hulking. On the other hand, the "graceful and dainty" gays will never catch your attention because you filter them out when you're not actively seeking them in a romantic way and barely register if they aren't acquaintances.

After paying more attention to my own body language and slowly weaning off feminine tics, I nothing short of obssessed over gendered body language whether in performance or observation. I don't think I've ever felt natural or comfortable or "in line with what I am inclined to behave" doing things like manspreading or hanging an arm off a friend's shoulder. To that end, majority of the internet have got it wrong labelling terms like the gay lisp or gay behaviour. They aren't "gay lisping" per say, just speaking in the same way that girls (in general) tend to do. Girls sashay and do limp wrist flicking and pressing and hold their hands akimbo and swerve their head all the time, if you actively pay attention to their body language. It's just not that noticeable because they don't strike the same kind of mental dissonance the same way when a guy does it. On the flip side, you get something like straight guys mocking Amy Schumer or Linsay Lohan for making vagina or period jokes and claiming that they are unfunny, when they make dick jokes and draw dicks practically everywhere and think it's the most hilarious shit in the world. In both claims the erroneous logic is shaded by how people forgot to observe how it is presented in the original gender.

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