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Are the numbers stacked against us?

Reddit View
March 7, 2017

Hey guys

Recently an article from the HuffPost called The Epidemic of Gay Loneliness was posted on r/gaybros. Now, while I'm not a big fan of that newspaper nor that sub, I thought it was an interesting read, where the gay writer seems to grasp some redpill theory, even if unconsiously.

He starts talking about how most of the straight friends of his age (middle 30s) are marrying, having families and living a more quiet life. In contrast, a huge majority of his gay friends choose to remain around wild parties, with tons of substance abuse and casual sex. He doesn’t seem too critical of this, but he does wonder why young gays like him, who grew up in liberal cities, who came one generation after the AIDS epidemic, who recently got the right to marry and have never been better represented in the media, are still living very apart from the heterosexual lifestyle. He then goes on about higher suicide rates, depression, anxiety etc.

But that’s not really what called my attention the most. After a few paragraphs he mentions a study showing that most gay guys are looking for masculine men, while at the same time wanting to be more masculine themselves. The writer blames this (of course) on how society is built to value masculinity and also because masculine men can pass as straight. I don’t really buy this.

Anyway, suppose that study is a faithful depiction of homosexuals in general. This means that most are trying to or feel that they should be dominant, but are also attracted to a dominant partner, which makes polarity in a relationship quite hard to achieve. Therefore the numbers would go against what most wish in a relationship, at least an LTR.

I can only imagine two realistic outcomes and one that seems more ideal for a relationship of two masculine guys.

1) None of them gives up or wants to lower their masculinity or dominance, meaning that there’s no submission of any party to the other. Polarity therefore fails to exist. They might become good friends, associates of a project, bros etc, but if we assume that polarization is necessary to develop passion, then their love might just be a fraternal one at best. Should wrote about this much more deeply on his blog

2) One of them decides to submit and adopt the more feminine role in order to create a functional romantic relationship. A lot of you guys seem to have no problem with this system but I see two flaws. The first is that the more feminine guy might eventually get stressed out of adopting this role, as he is still a man after all. The second is that acting more feminine can make his partner become less attracted to him in the long run, since he was attracted to masculinity in the first place.

3) This is the ideal one. By ideal I mean hard to happen, but not impossible (maybe?). In order to create polarity, the submission of one of the parties occurs. However, the more feminine guy is skillful enough, or happens to find the right equilibrium, between femininity, attractiveness and identity. This means he submits just enough to maintain polarity, while not having to fake his essence or losing his initial sexual appeal to his partner. I’ve seen people naming this the General x Lieutenant sort of relationship. I do think this is rare though.

So I might be missing something, but my conclusion is that gay loneliness, at least a romantic one, isn’t that rooted on traditional society oppression or anything like that. It’s rooted on male biology, as most gay men often find themselves between a rock and a hard place. By being masculine they manage to become more attractive, but fail to develop a healthy romantic relationship. Femininity on the other hand will go against their instinct, taking a toll on their identity and life plans.

Post Information
Title Are the numbers stacked against us?
Author delenda4
Upvotes 9
Comments 3
Date 07 March 2017 02:07 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit altTRP
Original Link
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[–]Arroway23577 points8 points  (3 children) | Copy

For what it's worth, I have begun to think that in the context of same-sex male relationships, perhaps we're approaching the whole thing with the wrong baseline assumptions. I think that we've spent so long trying to get mainstream society to believe that we're just like them in order to secure legal rights, that we have forgotten...we're not just like them. Same-sex interpersonal dynamics are different in all contexts. While I acknowledge the appeal of masculine-dominant/feminine-passive polarity in heterosexual relationships, that's because those things are the distilled forms of what women and men are at their core, and the ideal form of those polarities is what the other desires.

I am a masculine man who wants a masculine man*. I want this because I want someone to push against (literally and figuratively) as well as someone who will (literally and figuratively) push back. I don't want polarity. I want a comrade. I want an equal. There will be times that I need him to catch me, and there will be times that I need to catch him. This doesn't imply any inherent polarity, it just proves that men occasionally need that from their friends - "All alpha, All The Time" is a myth. I want to love and respect a man as a man, and I want that in return from a man. I want an sexualized form of the archetypal male friendship, and I do think that at times, when our individual strengths ebb and flow, the General/Lieutenant model could be useful. There is no reason to really believe that any of this will look at all like what a happy, functional male/female relationship looks like.

*A note on masculinity: I value masculinity in men for the simple reason that I think that masculinity is inherently valuable. Of course, any non-physical concept is open to interpretation, so here is what I mean when I say masculinity: The set of practiced, and even cultivated, behaviors that emphasize and optimize the broad tendencies of males. So, if men are generally physically stronger, I am attracted to a man who cultivates that. The same with the tendency to take action, to be proactive rather than reactive, to practice authoritative, skilled control of his physical environment, and who displays emotional control and avoids attention-seeking behaviors. Yes, women can exhibit any or all of these characteristics, but the difference is that while we may appreciate it when a woman does, it is not held against her if she doesn't.

[–]TrevorTQH0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This struck home.

[–]aThrowawayathrowa1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I've wondered in the past if the solution to this is to look for bisexuals, demisexuals, pansexuals, or fetishists. It seems likely that because they are already unhinged in terms of sexual rigidity, they might not adhere to heteronormative standards what masculinity is either.

I have to dispute what you say about gay men being feminine as going against instinct though. I have yet to meet a gay guy who hasnt on some level or other displayed feminine interest or mannerism. It seems the inverse is true, that masculinity is learnt behaviour. As an adult, you can control how you behave, but as a kid you werent as inhibited and I'm sure there were some signs of feminine behaviour then

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