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She just doesn't get it. This debate goes in circles for hours! (Please do not participate)

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September 4, 2013
9 upvotes
http://np.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/1lo6b0/why_does_askmen_seem_to_be_getting_more_hostile/cc1kz19?context=3


Post Information
Title She just doesn't get it. This debate goes in circles for hours! (Please do not participate)
Author redpillschool
Upvotes 9
Comments 49
Date 04 September 2013 06:39 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/174969
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1lqbd7/she_just_doesnt_get_it_this_debate_goes_in/
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Comments

[–]Endorsed Contributormonsieurhire212 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy

It seems to me that the debate is constantly clouded by people faling to distinguish between men and women as biological phenomena, and men and women as cultural phenomena.

Someone on that thread actually said something like "Name some women patent-holders." Does he really believe that there are NO female patent holders? Apparently the number has surged in recent years:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karin-kamp/women-patent-holders_b_1310575.html

"Women held 18 percent of all patents granted in 2010, compared to 14 percent in 2000 and 9 percent in 1990."

Some men might say that these women who hold patents are "mannish," but they are thinking of men then as a cultural phenomena, that is a "finished product" of cultural processes, as opposed to something created by nature. You can take a woman as a biological construct and subject her to the cultural processes that produce a cultural male and get a lady scientist, or a lady CEO. I've worked as a subordinate to many women and men over the years, in fact, more women than men, in many instances. I could not tell the difference between the men and the women as intellectual entities, or even in terms of management styles. Some women were brusque and dictatorial, others were more persuasive and soft-sell.

So then, this cultural process is not exactly about producing "men" or "women" about producing, to put it in gender-neutral, and therefore more accurate terms, bread-winners, and domestic support personnel. Both are necessary, in my opinion, for social stability. Running a household PROPERLY, as opposed to negligently, is a lot of work, and can be very fulfilling on a number of levels. But the corporations want to shame people away from that role so they can expand the labor pool for breadwinners, which then reduces the power of the breadwinner to negotiate for better wages.

A lot of men gripe on here about young attractive women who basically refuse to conform to the domestic support personnel role in a timely manner. They're not griping about some average looking women who works in a lab all day long, or about some homely woman who started popping kids out after getting her GED. Then they make sweeping generalizations that apply to all women.

[–]no_game_player8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy

In which TRP is blamed for all of the content of AskMen

So...we think we're getting trolled by the posts over there; they think we're controlling them.

TRP is SRS 2.0? lol

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedBigMan4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

TRP is SRS 2.0? lol

Minus the bitchy whining, white knights and TEH FEELS.

[–]no_game_player6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah I was just joking about the aspect of "omg they control everything" which it sometimes has felt like was true for SRS (don't know if they've gotten weaker or it's a change in perspective but this seems far less common lately).

[–]1mrust13 points14 points  (6 children) | Copy

It's impossible to debate someone who can't even repeat what your position is. We had the same thing happen last month when one of the other subs asked what TRP is all about.

Only thing I can suggest is that you need to frame the debate as debates are traditionally done:

MOTION/PROPOSITION

Argument FOR

Argument AGAINST

None of this "But this is what I believe and this is what you believe" and going back and forth and redefining the statement.

Once a motion has been defined, all speakers are required to address the definition, not some other variant that might be easier for them.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 16 points17 points  (5 children) | Copy

Or refuses to let you have your own position.

This chick was so convinced my position was something that it wasn't.. I kept explaining.. no that's really not it at all. And she kept going, "but look, here's all the reasons I think it is!"

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy

I think you went too heavy on the emotional framing for what should be a primarily male audience. The stupid Internet points will make her feel validated and shield her. I'd rather have seen an old style debate frame like mrust suggests personally, mostly because of the male audience.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy

I don't see where I used any emotional framing. I framed the entire thing as "you don't know our position and won't let me tell you it.."

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

Here's some stuff some people will see as emotional framing:

you can't be surprised when men think so poorly of you.(worthless frame) Try something more bite-sized.(stupid frame) pidgeon(stupid frame)

Most of what you said is quite funny, but it plays into their whole victim / redpillers hate all womynz bullshit.

I guess you can't force anyone to swallow the pill though. Take it as constructive criticism. If it's useful use it, if not don't bother.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

That was a weak portion, I actually regretted saying it- but ya know, I won't go back an edit it.

Calling her stupid was actually just me goading her. I originally had no intention of the debate carrying on like it did. Something about using their own tools against them.

Thanks for the critique, I agree with you.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Accepting ones' own mistakes, even when they don't actually have to do with the debate and might be embarrassing, is one of the marks of someone who is actually interested in truth. I'm glad to see that willingness in the founder of this subreddit, considering it has pretty much become my favorite subreddit. I'm going to come off like a sycophant, but it's really refreshing to see that in a politically charged subreddit like this. Keep at what you've been doing.

[–]dr_rj_vindalu1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Wow ok, so, bit of a redpill lurker here, posted maybe once or twice on topics that interested me. I saw this "debate" and began reading into it, and for a while I was wondering what was going on. I could see the circular logic being bandied about by both ibbity and rps and couldn't quite get my head around why someone like rps seemed to be doing the equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears and refusing to address certain points ibbity made. Being a logical person though I took the time to follow every reply(every reply, a lot of reading, I tell you what) and eventually came to the crux of the matter. It all made sense when, shamefully I decided to go back to the very beginning and instead of deviating, follow the main thread(i.e. rps discussing value). Then it all made sense.

Rps suffeciently gave his interpretation on the matter of value(50% of the community see a woman as a walking vagina, 50% see her as more, don't lynch me on this, this just a baseline interpretation) and ibbity promptly moved the goalposts. The rest of the "debate" was rps basically opting out of a debate that had nothing to do with the initial inference(on woman's value).

Hoping that I've not missed anything, I'd just like to say thank you RedPillSchool, you've reinforced a lot of my views about the state of the world and social economics.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks for taking the time to read it.

One thing I've noticed lately is how quickly they move the goal posts in these types of arguments. I made it a point to attempt to keep the goal posts in one place and absolutely refused to take the bait for each time she tried to move them.

It was tricky, and honestly as she kept moving them, it started to look as though I was being evasive or didn't have any answers and maybe she was right.

That's the reason she moved the goal posts. It's a good debate strategy, if you're dishonest.

[–]rugbytitsandmedicine16 points17 points  (10 children) | Copy

redpillschool... you should know better...

she's hamstering, we all know that.. and your logic is sound - that too is obvious. But the fact that you're even arguing this stuff on a separate sub will harm this subs credibility. You're feeding her the attention she craves

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy

Harms our credibility?

First of all, we have no credibility in reddit at large, nor do we aim to improve it.

Secondly, how exactly do you think we ended up with as many people here as we do?

[–]ThePacketSlinger3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Can confirm. I discovered this subreddit from one of your posts (I think on askmen)

[–]rugbytitsandmedicine13 points14 points  (7 children) | Copy

This sub is massively popular because it's true, and the truth always comes out. Don't let your ego destroy you bro, success can be dangerous

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy

The question was rhetorical. The reason we grew is because we spent a good portion of time having well thought out debates outside the sub, which people saw and came to look.

Tell me about my ego.

[–]amatorfati6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

Some of us are with you on this, I wouldn't worry too much about the shit you're getting.

Look, the way I see it, /r/theredpill is extinct anyway, our days are numbered. No matter what we do. Now we can take that for what it is, and we can make a choice. We can stay here in our little corner of the internet, circlejerk until the sky turns red and the earth melts, and wait for the inevitable banhammer. Or we can be proactive about it like you're doing and at least make some honest effort to branch out. I say it's better to try. If we fail, we at least go out fighting. We have nothing to lose. Most of reddit already hates this subreddit and wants it banned for misogyny anyway, we can't possibly make that situation any worse. Already when people on other subs talk about this community, they immediately resort to accusations that the moderators all support rape. It cannot get anymore hyperbolic than that, rape accusations are the strongest the opposition has in their arsenal.

Ego can only be a boost now. So what if you post on another subreddit and get downvoted to hell, maybe even banned? What you said was correct. I'd rather be right and banned than wrong and accepted, I'd make that choice every time without regret.

[–]rule_of_law1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

To be honest, I found this on the random thread option while surfing Reddit. The best place to introduce TRP as a subreddit, or even as a new way of thinking, is not in response to a comment that basically aims to discredit anything we say because "you're TRP and that makes you WRONG!". Those who don't know what we think will not be impressed. Those who may be or could be aligned with our views will still not want to sign on to a sub that everyone thinks is whatever the fuck insult they throw at us. Instead, after a comment which seems to coincide with our views, drop a TRP link, or say something that would lead them our way.

Think about it like the REAL matrix, everyone needs to swallow the red pill and be freed, but most aren't ready.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy

A lot of guys found us through rational debates on askmen and elsewhere. I'mma keep doing what I do.

[–]rule_of_law0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

But you're out gunned...

Did Tom Cruise in The Last Samurai want to engage the Samurai rebels with his untrained band of conscripts? No, because he knew that he would lose in spite of his military and tactical skills.

I'm not trying to bash you, but I don't see how you're going to start a rational debate out of "TRP is RACIST"

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm always outgunned.

There are two types of people:

  • The people who think I'm outgunned and therefore wrong. They will continue about their day.
  • The people who think "man, everybody here is crazy and he's just trying to make a simple point.. I wonder what the red pill is..."

Yes, you can't force feed anybody the red pill. And I'd be lying to say I don't enjoy stretching my fingers every month or so. But the lurkers are the real winners of this debate. Anybody with an open mind will be interested after seeing that.

It's not a task I think is for everybody. But since the early days, it's something I've done.

[–]Nitzi0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

accepting unfairness is the worst you can do

even if you are powerless you should never miss to protest

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (4 children) | Copy

Though I'm guilty of messing around in other subreddits in the past 48 hours, it seriously seems that if it continues like this, the critical mass for a ban hammer is only a question of time.

The amount of posts lately(like the ex-party girl and now the 40 year old giving men dumb advice) that seem like the perfect red pill bait seem to be appearing awfully conveniently. Now I might just be paranoid but my senses are tingling...and not in a good way.

[–]puck_mar1n13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of tolling going on in /r/askmen right now. I started to notice it when I saw a topic along the lines of "Is anyone friends with a Redpiller in real life." I responded saying that I followed TRP, etc... and that it works great for me. The OP wrote a nasty response saying he wasn't interested in opinions of people from TRP, just their friends in real life or something like that.

Also, this post has already been linked to /r/thebluepill.

[–]no_game_player4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Over/under on TRP being banned?

[–]evilmonster5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Maybe TRP members should refrain from commenting on TRP issues elsewhere? I'd hate to see TRP go.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah. If those aren't troll lightening rods, I don't know what's going on. Even right now, on the front page, there's a "Guys, I'm no longer attracted to my pregnant girlfriend, what should I do?" post where the guy clearly is avoiding the fact that his girlfriend oopsed him. It's so accidentally-on-purpose implied that I rolled my eyes and didn't even comment.

[–]VivalaVeritas4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy

u/redpillschool I respect you, and mostly agree with the things you post, but she did have a few valid points. When trying to define your position, she posted links to a few thread that were just downright dumb, like the gene thread. I understand this is a community of more than 15k, but she should not have been able to even find examples like these on the sub.

As a leader of TRP community, [you are] representative of the community. When people post stupid shit like "Hurr durr women shouldn't vote" or "look at this totally legit scientific study I found!1" they should be banned, and you not banning them is indirectly encouraging shitty behavior. So yes, TRP school [you are] responsible and representative of the TRP community. Call it the burden of leadership if you will.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

Ideas that are posted respectfully can be discussed, and sometimes they're just crap. I'm not going to ban everybody who suggests an idea that doesn't hold water, that's absurd.

[–]VivalaVeritas4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

I may have misspoke when I said 'banned', but I do think those types of posts should be discouraged, because it de-legitimizes the great things posted on this sub.

[–]Nitzi1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

he also is responsable for freedom of speech

and I just read women shouldnt vote in the story of guys who say that to their spouses.

Also nearly no one should be allowed to vote

add milton friedman on democracy here

[–]MockingDead1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

Yeah. I don't know. Since taking TRP, I have stopped debating. It wastes time better spent on other things.

[–]Modredpillschool[S] -4 points-3 points  (1 child) | Copy

It's the only way to really maintain sanity.

[–]MockingDead1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Indeed. or, as I blithly quip to BPers. "The wolf does not concern himself with the opinion of sheep. "

[–] points points | Copy

[permanently deleted]

[–]MockingDead-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

The lion does not concern himself with the opinion of sheep.

[–]Endorsed Contributor303030303030301 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

you are a generous guy rps

[–]cobysan4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Who cares what they think? The red pill is for those who have opened their eyes, not the ones who still are willingly blind. They can fuss/insult all they want, it doesn't make it less true. Also, hi blue pill reposters.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

I'm looking at some other comments there. Isn't it funny that everyone mentions TRP brigading a lot of the posts on other subs, but we in fact discourage that behaviour and use 'np' links? What's really happening here? Are TRP members actually using throwaways to post there?

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy

Unless you were already a member of that community. In askmen, a lot of us were members there before the red pill even existed.

[–]no_game_player2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Unless you were already a member of that community.

Ahh, thanks! I've been trying to figure out what the line was. I sort of thought it was this but wasn't sure.

Even though I'm subscribed, I'm always cautious whenever I come from a TRP link (which tends to be the main times I check those out again). Because of the "but for" logic: but for the RP link, I wouldn't be there. So even though I consider myself something of a member over there, I'm not there because of that sub, if that makes sense.

Edit: And, personally, I never vote on such links, only an occasional comment.

Edit 2 for clarity: I mean never vote on anything following such links, although I occasionally make a comment (although leaning against that now). I realized re-reading this that it could have been read as saying I vote on comments. I'd often like to, but I like to keep things "clean" by not doing so.

But, I note that I recognized at least one TBP regular being very prominent in that thread. I do wonder how much SRS/TBP involvement there is over there...

[–]crazyex0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Raises hand

[–]Nitzi0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

it just works

this should be all there is to say unless you want more advertisment

[–]jolly--roger-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

She lacks the capacity to understand written text - another case of intellectual malnutrition.

[–]angeliswastaken-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

I think you're misinterpreting the outcome of that conversation.

[–]Lok_Die-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy

If a pigeon cannot play chess, does it mean it is stupid? Or simply a pigeon?

Subtle nuances lost on the lady.



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