So I have a plate over and we bang. She has been bitching a lot about us getting exclusive lately. I was on the bubble whether or not I should make her a LTR (as I do enjoying being in LTR's myself), but this day she was being awfully bitchy.
After the bang she starts shit testing.
"You know, us having all of this sex could get me pregnant."
- No it won't. (Then silence)
"You know, it's bullshit how you'll fuck me but not want to be with me."
"You're an asshole. You'd rather check your email than spend time with me." (Notice, she had already been on her phone like 3 times at this point and even had another dude calling her, which she had to mention which I did not respond to.)
- I think it's time for you to go home now.
"OH I WILL! You don't think I'll leave? I Will!
She gets up and starts putting her clothes on.
"Such a jerk, blah blah, asshole, blah blah, never having sex with you again blah blah."
- Go home and collect yourself and when you learn to not talk to me like that you can come back another day.
"Blah, blah, babbety blah asshole blah."
- Say Nothing, still checking email on phone.
(She starts crying and lays back down with me.)
"I know I'm a crazy emotional mess. I'm sorry, I've always had emotional problems. I can't help it."
- You still need to leave. I will not deal with these kind of outbursts and it's why we're not exclusive. Come back when you learn how to speak to me in a respectful manner.
(More crying and rationalizing, finally leaves. I am still on the bed responding to emails on my phone. 5 mins later hear a knock at my door. She comes walking in still crying.)
"I'm sorry, just let me lay with you. Please, blah, blah."
No. You can come back another time when you learn how to speak with me. It's time to go."
I held frame and she crumbled. She recognized her ridiculous behavior, apologized for it, and wanted me to crumble and say come lay back in bed. I wanted her to go home and think about how she acted and how I did not reward her actions. I wanted her to have to ride home thinking about it and then realize I will not tolerate emotional outbursts for no reason. In the past I'd let it slide off of my back, or just cave when she started crying and apologizing. This time I held frame, and it slapped me in my face when I continued checking my email while she was getting dressed. I learned that I don't hold frame long enough sometimes and I need to learn to hold it longer when needed. Seeing her melt when I didn't chase after her when she started getting dressed or begged her to stay was the biggest slap in my face to how holding frame works at its finest.
Thanks for all of the frame talk on here, fellas. I'm not a noob, but I still find myself learning new things every day.
Cheers
Let this be an example for all newcomers willing to understand frame. How to maintain frame 101.
Thanks bro. Glad I can contribute. I see these new guys and cringe sometimes, but I realize that was me not too long ago. Nothing better than helping a beta door mat realize he's done nothing wrong in life other than be a considerate human being to members of the opposite sex who he is trying to bed.
The golden part in your contribution is exactly how regardless of that woman's emotional state you stood firm in your decision to make her think about how she fucked up in her own house, away from your company.
The ultimate test was enduring the drama through all phases with the same stance from beginning to end, and I believe you passed it with honors.
Thanks man. It felt so MF'ing good.
That statement from her mentioning the words "pregnant" needs to be setting off alarms in your head. That is a titanic red flag bro.
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Is it possible to use dread to make a girl into me that has deemed me as "beta" who was also at one point into me?
Firstly...this isnt /r/asktrp so generally you shouldnt derail the thread with a random silly question.
Secondly, she deemed you "beta" why the fuck would dread game work for you? Dread game is effective when there is attachment or attraction built and there is chance of losing you/ultimatum/etc. If anything you have to get out of the beta zone with her. If you improve your social and sexual value where other women desire you then a bit of jealousy game might work in situation.
That's what i was looking for. Thanks man
Dread game absolutely works when you're in beta game.
What's the worse that happens? Some bitch trying to play you for a chump fucks off?
Good riddance.
She already views you as chump. you getting lost from her life is nothing of value. The guy PM'd me and it seems he seems to have one-itis over this chick which is problementative right there because he obviously values her (onto a pedestal) while she doesnt him. So she just isnt some rando bitch to him
Dread game insfoar as "pre-selection" would work for him. But it's a waste of time and effort, better to spend that time finding new girls.
Yep.. as said, dread game only works when she perceives you as high SMV.
If you are already in the beta/friend/manboob field of vision, dread game will do absolutely nothing and possibly more damage.
Cut your losses and move on. Your only chance to ever get with her is only when she indirectly hears of your conquests with other women and your SMV shoots up high beyond what she saw previously.
Yes, if by "dread" you mean showing pre-selection. But it takes way too much effort, find new girls instead.
What do you do when they don't listen? Suppose she didn't leave and obey.
Start putting her shit outside, if she starts to go crazy, don't call the police, call one of your friends. I have very rarely had a girl who didn't listen even after I started to open the door and tell her she's leaving right now in an "angry-calm" type of way.
If shit gets violent, just remember, call a male friend or female friend you trust - not cops. As a 6'2'' guy if I try to escort a chick out forcefully and no one was there to witness it, if she has a little tiny bruising on her wrists, my ass in in jail.
I know you are right. But reading things like this is extremely depressing, take about rape culture, it is a rape culture, for men. A giant brute man beast is restrained by something half his weight and 1/10th his strength, because if the woman gets a bruise the beast will be slain. What a world we live in. And I am not insulting you, its just funny how absurd the world we live in is.
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Nah man I've seen huge amounts of yelling and screaming and an absolute refusal to leave until you listen. As if everybody couldn't already hear her. Honestly I have no idea in this situation
Call the police in secret or something?
Why was this man downvoted? Call the cops from another room, record video of her interaction and refusal to leave. Show cops how she refused to leave with recording. It's your property.
That's when you know you're dealing with a crazy.
I've been in this scenario once where I broke up with my girl at my home (NEVER BREAK UP AT YOUR HOUSE) and calling the police didnt' work.
Long story short, I actually had to play her with manipulation to get her out of the house. Basically I turned the tables to make her think that I wanted to work things out saying and actioning a lot of betafying things. Only then did she leave the house. Once that occurred I disappeared in a flash going full ghost on her.
Lesson: dont put your dick in crazy
I am an newbie here, but can you tell me exactly what you mean by holding frame?
You're gonna have to lurk longer man. Not only should you earn this knowledge, rather than get it for free. But even more importantly, the odds of somebody giving you an incorrect definition of "holding frame" is too high. I'd rather you gradually and casually read posts and comments about frame until the point when you've truly grasped it.
Still don't quite get it. What is frame?
It is the willpower (some call it stubbornness) to stick to your own values, opinions and decisions without caving in to those of somebody else.
Here the OP decided he didn't want to put up with the emotional drama of this plate so told her to leave. She tried all the usual tricks, belittling the OP at first then turning on the water works before at last begging him to let her back in like a lost puppy and ultimately have things her own way.
He held frame by sticking to his decision to kick her out and enjoy a little peace and quiet (after hopefully a good lay).
I think that sums things up right; no doubt someone else here will serve me another dose of the pill if I got it wrong. :P
Nah, you pretty much got it right. You're pretty on point.
Holding frame is immersing them in your reality. It is underrated and the biggest sticking point I've improved in my game.
Yes. I made sure to mention her behavior and how I was basically punishing her for it. It seems to have worked perfectly.
It's not even limited to just game. Holding frame is, as far as I can tell, the key to any kind of social power whatsoever. Over the past few months, I've been amazed at just how far you can get with a firm resolve and a refusal to accept other people's versions of reality.
Nice post, OP. I like everything you did, but would offer a slightly different perspective on the final act of your story wherein the contrite woman realizes the error of her ways and returns to apologize. Let me preface by saying you held frame immaculately. Well done. But did you hold frame too much? You probably know about the concept of win-win rather than win-lose, but for the new guys this seems like a perfect example which could have gone another way. YMMV.
Opinions will differ on this one, but I read a post a while back (re:win-win...sorry no link) where one should positively reinforce a woman submitting to your frame. Essentially, the entire story would read the same except when she came back teary eyed and sorry, you demonstrated approval for her coming to her senses. A kiss on the cheek and a slap on the ass, no big deal babe - totally chill - nothing gets to you because your an alpha... or so the premise goes anyway.
Some chicks need stone cold, unflinching discipline which is what you demonstrated in your story. Kudos. Some might respond to a very slight amount of tenderness and understanding, as positive reinforcement if (read: when) she submits to your frame, backs down, and apologizes. Unwinding the hamster is a good thing. The end result is you have conditioned her to back down, let her know that you don't/won't hold a grude, maybe get a sweet blowj out of the deal. If you are holding a grudge, you care - if you care, then you don't not give a fuck. Not describing your situation, OP. Just engaging in reductivism for the sake of completeness of this reply, to bring it on home.
OP, I trust you did what was necessary for your particular situation. That said, how would she have reacted the other way? more shit? or sweet blowj? or some third option?
Good points brother.
She would have probably been nice and sweet, but the problem is she would have forgot about it in 20 minutes. I did it because I was tired of these outburts every so often (not constantly tho, but enough to have used up my patience). I have done what you said a couple of other times, and found her attitude to be good for the next hour or so, but then like I said it's like it's totally like it didn't exist.
I just wanted to set a precedent here with this one. Next time she comes over I will be cordial and let her know it's over and I don't care (if she brings it up), but I really just wanted to make an example that I am 100% over this kind of shit and will not tolerate it any longer. We'll see how it goes next time.
I know that exact type, bro. Like I said, its clear from your post that you know what's up - pick the appropriate act for the given scenario.
100% let her bring it up. Good call, bro.
then hit her with "Oh yea...I forgot all about that. No big deal. I don't allow crazy in my home so you are cool to come hang out if you can keep it in check. shitty grin." or some variant.
You're right in insisting on your initial frame and not letting her apology affect that.
Punish quickly, reward slowly. 12 commandments. You can thank her later for being contrite.
Is that like the 16 commandments?
Hold frame and then throw in a subtle dread when she continues to be out of line. Damn fine show
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Google "dread game" and drink from the Internet firehose of information. It's the art of letting her realize that you have options, and she is fungible.
I have but i'm never happy with what i find. I've never found an actual definition. I get that it's similar to making her jealous but i feel like if i understand it more i can utilize it better. Especially when a plate doesn't want a relationship with me but is fine with hooking up
Maintaining frame: pretty much told her- this is not acceptable. Leave until you can handle yourself.
Subtle dread: I may not let you back in if you continue acting this way. Leave until I feel like hanging out again.
It is subtle to a girl but not to a thinking person. haha
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I normally aim to kick a girl out within the first month just so she knows how far I'll go
my recommendation is to rile them up around the time of their period, they'll say something nasty, and you boot them out. sets boundaries nicely
This reminds me of an episode of south park where nannys come and try to correct cartmans behaviour and making him submissive lol.
The strategy can be effective among humans of any gender. Given the context of OP's post, I narrowed it.
That the episode with the dog whisperer or the one with the creepy ass english nannies? or the same episode? No TV bro, been a while since I caught a rerun.
Yes it's the episode with the dog whisperer because the nannays fail and cartman destroys them so they end up iin the mental hospital.
This sounds a lot like my childhood, but with some nuns and no dog whisperer, they never fixed me, and here I am, a red pill man.
EDIT: holy shit this ep is so funny from red pill perspective, at the start he is just like red pill guy. Women are like "stay on the timeout" stool aka sleep on the couch. NOPE. AHAHAHAHAHA
Oh man this is great.
EDIT2 : HOYLSHIT, eric goes on a monologue about how the nanny never had kids cuz no one wanted her and how her ovaries and uterus are useless, AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA such red pill, much wow
Shit I said the same- should have read your post first
You are being nice, because you still allow her to be fucked by you.
Think Alpha, Be Alpha. TABA
Yeah I just coined a new term, oh wait we already have FITUMI Fake it til you make it, but that sounds too japanese.
Good work! Just watch out for the 'accidental' preganancy on this one, though....
Haha, one time she was drunk and sent me a "I think I might be pregnant" text. I didn't respond. She apologized profusely for it the next day, and said she was just drunk and being emotional.
The more i read about her behaviour the less i think you should consider her for ltr.
I'm not any longer, up until that point I was, though.
And this is why I ride the fuck out of my plates before I give the GF title. The long wait is my shit test to make sure she's capable. Throughout the extended time period I get to observe the different aspects of her behavior and decisions. If a chick wants to be with me she's going to have to have been exemplary for 6-12months, depending on a combination hotness and personality. Most wont make it but that's the way it should be.
100% correct. So glad I held off.
It doesn't bother you guys if the plate(s) you're considering for LTR are off banging other guys?
I've no problem keeping plates as plates for as long as I wish. But when a girl is attractive enough for me to consider her as LTR material, I don't think I can keep her as a plate for long. The thought of her freely fucking whomever eats me, if I have interest in the girl beyond the sex.
Of course, the paradox is that even in a LTR she's free to do whatever she wants. I'm not even sure if this is a question, or just ramblings from me.
Wow this girl is fucking crazy, dude
Yeah that's not a red flag at all.
Maybe a flashing red strobe light, a deafening klaxon, and a British voice yelling "Run away! Run awaaay!", but not a red flag.
You wanna reassure us all about what protection you're using?
The one where I don't do anything without a condom, and I pull out.
LOL I'm not new here, but it's still funny to me how women will completely change their attitude in a matter of seconds if you hold your frame. It's like there's a light switch in their heads.
It's crazy how that works. When she came to the bed and started crying, I was a little freaked out at first because it was a complete 180. I didn't show it, but I was really shocked at how it worked like a fucking DIY video on YouTube.
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This happened to me today and i still can't fucking believe it. I don't even know how to feel about it
Holding frame is essentially just calling someone's bluff.
So you respond with a simple "ok" or "whatever." And just like that, she has lost all leverage. She went all-in on a bluff and lost. Realizing she made a huge error in judgement, she attempts to get back to baseline (where you were before the bluff), by crawling back and begging for forgiveness.
Exactly. I just kept checking my emails, because I was not doing anything wrong in the first place.
Yup. One thing that most guys will miss when they are learning about holding frame, is creating consequences for shit tests/frame tests (like you have done). If you don't nip that shit in the bud, they will constantly test you, because they know they can get away with it, even if you consistently pass. By telling her to leave, you are essentially reversing her shit test. She now has to behave herself to get back to "baseline" with you. Then once she gets back to baseline, she will be less likely to test you, because she already knows there will be serious consequences.
This is "dealing with a child 101" here folks
What if they were married and giving her the boot wasn't an option. What sort of options would he have then?
I'm not sure there are many great options, unfortunately. In my opinion, once married, all a man can do is make empty threats and bluff.
If you want info about marriage red pill there is a lot out there. The advice is a bit different but overall the same, you can use dread and other tactics but there is too much information to post. So basically search TRP for it, there is a lot of discussion on it. I'm not saying to be a dick like "lol google", I mean there are really good lengthy discussions about this that you need to go read because single posts won't begin to cover 1% of it. GL.
This is key. Women just love to shame us, to make us think we did something wrong. It is systemic in relationships, especially marriages. The man is always "in trouble" for something or another.
I reject it completely. I haven't been "in trouble" since I was a boy and I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone manipulate and control me like that. It pisses my LTR off, which I find terribly amusing. You know when a woman is just losing her shit and you can't help but let out a hearty chuckle? Good times.
If you don't supplicate to her frame she'll supplicate to yours (if not immediately, eventually)
Or she'll walk.
Underlying the notion of holding frame is that if a woman cannot deal with living in your world then you'll let her go. If you can make that internal decision then it's less stressful because you've already decided ahead of time how this will play out.
Basically the biggest challenge to holding frame is the fear that it will end the relationship. And the truth is, sometimes it does. There absolutely are women who will not accept that you won't be moved by their emotions. You have to be OK with them going and not coming back. Once your head is in that place everything else sort of falls into line.
"Aww hell, baby, you're really gonna make me go out and find some younger, hotter pussy to replace you? Rough life I'm leading here."
No sane man wants those drama queens, anyway. On to the next one.
Yeah but be careful because not every shit test comes from a lunatic that you're just dying to get rid of. To maintain frame when it really matters you have to be willing to lose a relationship you actually value.
It is easy to hold frame with a woman you've kinda been looking for an exit anyway. Harder when you really want to hold on to her but refuse to do so on her terms.
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Best thing is, they don't realise it's an act.
I don't know if its "an act", it may be real. Basically the reptile/mammalian brain is saying one thing, but the conscious overlay of human brain is saying another. We have errors in perception and consciousness all the time, this may be one of those so they aren't acting, they are just blind to it like how men get stupid around hot women.
The common example is, you tell your brain to move a finger. You are actually telling ALL your fingers on that hand to move, then a split second later the human part of the brain says "hey don't move those 4 digits" and sends a counter response.
So basically woman says "prove you are a man worthy of fucking me" with her act, then you can either say you are worth or not (by action), then her reptile brain says "fuck him" or "don't fuck him" based on if you are alpha or beta and that neutralizes the human part of the brain.
I'm not saying women don't know it, or they can't see it after the fact, or that some women are sociopath/manipulators even more, but I really think its mostly just a result of layered areas of the brain, basically like an undertow in the ocean, sure the water looks still, but its a torrent that will rip you out to sea and drown you.
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If calling women's bluffs results in face fucking them with no commitment and them cumming... I might only start seeing bluffs. I'll start walking up to random women on the street, and just say "I think you are bluffing".
Sick story though, good example to get those blue pill and on the fence guys motivated, shit this even helps me.
Edit: wait I read that wrong, still funny so Ill leave it.
I don't know if you know anything about Behavior Analysis but your technique is spot on. If she has this emotional tirades and lashes out verbal assaults at you, you can't reward her behavior by giving her what she is having the tirade for in the first place. In BA, it's called extinction. On extinction, the subject will have a burst of the targeted behavior and it will get more intense and more frequent but if you keep up with it, (as you commendably did) the behavior will begin to fall in frequency and eventually taper off. The attention is her reward and sometime in her past reinforcement history she was rewarded by having these tantrums and learned that it is a way to get attention. This stuff is usually used to train animals but it still is good to know when dealing with difficult people.
You're actually using a technique based in behavior science. Remember: Behavior is lawful.
Probably the best comment on here.
Are you sure that you want to have a LTR with this girl?
I enjoy reading stories like this that show what happens when a man maintains frame when under pressure. To be Alpha is to maintain frame.
Nope, not sure at all, that's why it didn't happen. And these outbursts are why. She is usually really good about keeping her shit, but every once in a while this happens and it reminds me that I am better off having FWB.
Being that he used past tense there I'm going to assume he's reconsidered.
Yeah, she is cool most of the time, but these kinds of things remind me not to get too close. She's a great cook, wants to screw 4x a day, is smart, and her hamster is usually only out for a light jog, but then sometimes it goes all Ben Johnson and the example above happens.
All women have a hamster, she sounds about as good as they get
Can you elaborate? Just not sure of your context here.
All women do crazy shit you won't find one who won't. It's a matter of how crazy they are not if they're crazy. I honestly believe every woman will play pregnancy mind games if it will get them commitment. Its as much a female habit as it is a red flag. I don't think women without red flags exist they're all nuts to varying manipulative degrees. She also has a lot of redeeming features. IMO you won't find much better than a high sex drive smart chick that only occasionally goes fully hormonal on you. That's an opinion not a recommendation to ltr her that's your call.
I'm no expert but I think this is one of the most fundamental misunderstandings of TRP. One of the harping points for TRP detractors is the existence of AWALT. Some new guys read about AWALT and take it to mean that all women are the same level of crazy, have the same size hamster, and can all be counted on to act the same way. This is not true. When we say AWALT, what we mean is that all women have the capacity to act like that, and more importantly, all women will have at least some inclination to act like that. It's a spectrum. To put it in basic terms, imagine a scale of 1 to 10. Some women are more level-headed and logical, and will only rate a 1 on the crazy scale. Some women are Jack Nicholson in The Shining and are full 10 on the crazy scale. Obviously a 1 and a 10 are very different people. But even the most intelligent, reasonable woman is STILL on the scale. Only the fabled Unicorn would rate a 0.
I believe he's saying that all women are ridiculous and have a hamster that will go off the rails, but she sounds like she isn't as bad as most and has a good handle on it. Or something.
What this guy said. TRP has a lot Of great advice for general demeanor and relationship management, but if you're looking to settle down you need to understand that the perfect girl does not exist.
It sounds like you're emotionally neglecting her so you can manipulate her into casual sex even though she doesn't really want it.
Well done. I always love when they have to say out loud " I'll really leave! Don't tempt me I'll do it!" Ok... then go. You're annoying and there's UFC on tonight.
Man its like teaching a fucking dog.
Teaching a dog is easy. A dog won't claim rape and you end up jail being raped and lose half your shit.
I saw a really cute looking chihuahua earlier today.... unrelated
Women are incredibly simple creatures once you understand their elusive nature.
Step 1: build attraction.
Step 2: maintain frame.
Step 3: repeat until you have a loyal harem that keeps coming back for more.
To learn how to do step 1 and 2, keep reading TRP for examples like OP. This was a flawless example of maintaining frame.
women have two weapons: sex and emotional control.
pebbles, really.
the only way for them to win is if you open your tank and let them in to wreck it from inside. good shit my dude.
That's interesting, I'd have let her back into bed after she crumbles and apologizes, and she seems approximately sincere. To me, after the "catharsis" with tears, there's less need for holding the hard line, she needs the affection and gobbles it up. What's your thinking on that, are you getting signs that there's a distinct advantage to the way you handled it this time?
Or it's just this particular girl/situation, you needed that extra mile of hard rock for her to crash into?
Yeah, it was more for this specific girl/situation. Game principles need to be applied harder to her because she can be stubborn sometimes. Plus, I have caved a couple of times in the past when she gets to that point and it obviously hasn't curtailed the outbursts completely. It was a little nuclear, but it needed done.
Nuclear launch detected.
I expected the zerg version :(
The sound is from sc1, the video is from sc2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOlXyQ6qTxI
The first game have more reverb/echo and sounds more robotic for the... adjutant.
Speaking of beta and starcraft, Jim Raynor forgives Kerrigan for killing billions cuz feels. Gotta kill Tycus cuz he is going to kill Kerrigan. Male disposability and female victimhood at its finest.
Communist Version
Perhaps for beginners like me a good rule of thumb would be: Hold frame for longer than you think you have to.
You lose nothing if you hold it for longer than you need.
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I don't know about all that... Manipulating a man any way she can to commit to her is a girl's entire game, of course she's frustrated and irrational (and turned on) when it isn't working. Meanwhile from my side, it's never been the goal to get her to act more reasonable and civilized, just less bitchy, more feminine. Treating her like the child she is deep inside.
Shouting demands bad, submission good. So when the shouting and cursing turns to tears and desperate snuggles, we're almost home in my book. We all know you're never going to get a woman to be completely reasonable about these things no matter what you do, unless you like sullen "poor me" going through the motions unhappy woman-husks, which seems like a dubious victory to me. That's the only thing you get by fully forcing her to act reasonable. Win the standoff, lose the war.
Just how I see it.
I'm in complete agreement with you.
And manipulation has more success when used on emotions rather than logic.
Discipline in an interpersonal relationship is reciprocative with submission, not reasonability and civility. Spot on.
This is the most important TRP concept here. Persuade the woman with her emotions, not her logic. She responds more viscerally to her emotions.
Moreover on this point, you want to set a good groundwork with the woman. You do not want to have her doubt your logic/reason ever as a man. Make her feel like she should submit to you unconditionally. Do not make her feel like she should reason logically with you. Logic is not her forté, and you will have many problems in the future if you predicate your authority on her ability to logically validate every decision you make in her mind.
Athol Kay (May Peace Be Upon Him) talks about RP husbands going Alpha, getting their wife to fuck them like crazy (finally!) and then...the relationship ends in about a year because the hubby pushes it so far into IDGAF (I don't give a fuck).
If you want to punish her like that why not just throw her over your knee and spank her. I think you really DNGAF which is great for short term attraction. Not so much for the long game.
Replace sex with playing and her home with the corner, and that's how you deal with kids.
No, you need to learn to never break frame.
So what you are saying is women want a man like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APJuBnjA9oQ
I'm sorry everyone.
I like the cut of your jib young man.
Never compromise the basic integrity every person deserves by default.
I'd never tolerate a stranger walking up to me and freaking out all over me, so I certainly won't tolerate it from someone I know & want to trust.
Furthermore, I'm not sure I really trust someone who doesn't insist on this for themselves. If they aren't even an advocate for themselves then why should I?
Now... repeat this about 10,000 times with many women over years & years and you're done!
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Thanks buddy. I'll take a Heiny.
I just realized how easily I would have caved in, and how I've caved before. She crossed the line acting like your GF, knowing damn well she talks to and probably bangs other guys. This is an eye opener - good to see all of this stuff in action to put it in perspective. It's basically like they're looking for that guy who will fail the shit tests and cave in for the LTR.
Get a load of Capt. Von Trapp over here. Good job not putting up with any bullshit.
Reminds me of the time I was crashing at my buddy's house after a party and this drunk bitch decides to pour water on me as I'm trying to sleep. I called her a cunt and told her to fuck off. The next night we're all partying again and she shows up and instantly begins glaring at me. I matched her glare and she decided to announce to those surrounding that I had called her a cunt the night before. She then did that stupid folding-arms-checkmate shit and continued to glare. I stepped in her bubble, matched her glare again, and said "Yeah, so what." After a few seconds she apologized for pouring water on me. Granted in hindsight I should have probably treated her like a child and not flipped a tit at her, but live and learn. Not sure if that counts as holding frame or what.
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Touche. Felt good though. Beta me would have crumbled
Would it be considered holding frame to tell her to cut contact with those other dudes hitting her up? I can't stand that shit.
You know, something like "If you want a LTR you're going to need to get rid of those other guys emailing you." Or is this considered a beta trait?
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I've only been in LTR, so if this is going on during a LTR what would be the best course of action?
This works. Three to one ratio on texts, deflecting and ignoring verbal shit tests and baiting, etc.
She will interpret your nonchalance as strength and whatever complaint she had in the first place will either unravel under her own second guessing or become moot.
Godamit i would let her in after coming back in 5min. Kudos for keeping frame.
I must say I found that interesting, I would have probably (if I had any interest in the girl for more than sex) let her back in after the apology and such. Would have given her shit for it and just ignored her, but still, I like what I see here.
Now let's analyze this from the plate's point of view:
1) She immediately gives up all of her leverage by fucking OP.
2) In her mind, the act of having sex was more than just a physical act - she expected something MORE in return (respect, commitment, LTR, validation, or whatever).
3) OP gives her none of these things, because to him, the sexual act held no meaning beyond the physical, beyond that moment, there was no no implied or inferred quid pro quo.
3) Her self-esteem crashes through the floor, and she becomes desperate for OP to acknowledge the value of the "gift" she has given to him.
4) As it begins to dawn on her that she gave up the main thing OP wanted from her, she recognizes that she has substantially reduced leverage, so she resorts to shit tests, guilt, shaming, and finally emotional outbursts.
5) When OP continues to hold frame, his SMV skyrockets in her eyes. He is acting alpha. Immediately, and counter-intuitively, she is even more attracted to him than she was before.
So how does this play out in future encounters between OP and this plate?
If she learns the power and leverage that the act of sexual intercourse holds, she will want to restrict access to this power.
Alternatively, she may begin to view sex as a purely physical encounter, not as a means to an end.
Either outcome raises the plate's own SMV:
If she chooses to withhold sex, she becomes more valuable to some men because they want what they can't have.
And if she chooses the alternative, men also like women who appreciate a good romp in bed for what it is: a good romp in bed.
TL;DR: By holding frame, OP raised the SMV of both himself and his plate.
Just when i thought it could not get any better: "You still need to leave. I will not deal with these kind of outbursts and it's why we're not exclusive. Come back when you learn how to speak to me in a respectful manner."
BOOM.
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I would have told her to get the fuck out on the spot. Probably a loss of frame but in no way would crazy tail be worth he risk. Either way, your way was more entertaining lol.
Props.
Lol - I'm glad I finally have a cool story to contribute.
Nicely done lad!
Holding that hard frame like that got her to show and admit that she's an emotional mess and who the FUCK wants to make an LTR out of that shit. You're not mr fix it and now you don't have to be caught in that.
I kinda feel bad for her in a way. It's like I'm the first guy whose ever really lead her in that manner. It's like she's craving it so bad, and I've seen her be in shock sometimes at how I handle situations. Behind all of the emotional bullshit she's a good person, but I am not setting myself up. Hell no.
I understand where you're coming from but you did well and you need to look out for #1 - especially the way the world is for men right now. I would seriously "next" her as there are more stable, less crazy ones out there for you to spin to your hearts content.
That's true man. Call me still beta at my core, but I just enjoy LTR's better. I do like getting to know people and getting close to someone, and if she wasn't emotionally unstable like this I bet she would be a good LTR. She lovesto screw, is a great cook, and hates bars. She likes spending time with her family, and rarely uses social media. She has a great relationship with her dad and mom, and talks about her dad like she should. She respects him maybe more than anyone else in the world and has told me on several occassions that he could not have been a better provider or example to her.
But yeah, I need to find one a little more stable.
Hey brother,
I am obviously outside looking in on this, but those qualities dont come grouped together all to often, especialy if she is well pre-wall. You put her in check this time, and she obviously caved. Give it some time before you throw LTR out the window if thats the relationship type you prefer. As someone said above, you dont need to be Mr. Fix-it, but you may have been already by holding frame like that. As far as crazy goes, she seems less than normal, but that of course is just my opinion from reading this thread.
Good luck!
Being exposed to such behaviour makes me want to go temp-MGTOW. I have a plate that keeps pushing the idea of exclusiveness which I ignore/ don´t comment on, but I will have to next her for this. You should too.
Well done on sticking to your guns and not letting her walk on you. That was heroic.
Good job on holding frame by sticking to your word man.
Interesting, usually after an apology and acknowledging what she did wrong I let her back in. I find it's quite educational. But some are beyond that or not worth the effort so I can see your point.
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After the break down/apology, I tell her to calm down, give some physical contact for comfort, ask her if she understands why she was a a bitch, I let her apologize for it and create her own argument for why it was an abusive, ego driven, solipsistic and so on(I build a mental egoless model of relationships, so any behavior that is "me, me, me!" is not allowed). Then escalate psysical contact again for a brief moment and tell her what a good girl she is(you can use your pet name or whatever gets her to feel your affection). If she pulled some really nasty shit I tell her the apropiate punishment.(but be sure there is massive regret before you accept an apology on this one, and never go along with the consequences of her overreach)
Yeah some do cry wolf but you get to see the vitriol build up in those that are dishonest. And they rarely stick around after seeing that they can't move you an inch
I agree. Once you have won the confrontation, put the stick down.
This is brilliant. I had my first test the other day and posted here... I dropped the ball.
I have dropped the proverbial ball so many times it's not funny.
Digest the situation and come out better. It's only a mistake if you don't learn from it.
This is just a weak emotionally wrecked woman.
She'll be like this with every future partner .Some women just cant stay alone
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I would have said: "It's alright. I'll pay for half of the cost of the abortion." You have to let her know that if she gets pregnant she won't be rewarded with a relationship with you. That you expect her to get an abortion, and if she doesn't you'll have nothing to do with her ever again.
Nothing to do with her ever again, except paying her child support etc.
You know, I would've let her in after she was crying and all. My thoughts would've been, ok, she's crying and is apologetic. She must've learned.
From the way you did it, I guess that's not at all what I should be doing. When I say go home and come back when you learn not to talk to me like that, I guess no matter how much she cries, the punishment has been decreed and it will be carried out.
Am I on to something or no?
WTF. That right there would make me scared to death to keep even fucking her.
I am curious if you still feel this girl is LTR material?
That's alpha as fuck. Good job standing your ground but what is frame?
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Damn BP friends tell me I'm a dick, but dude you're a dick. Well done.
Unrelated to this, as a subscriber to both TRP and TBP (know thy enemy), I find that TBP brings up the more interesting RP articles. It's as if they are trying to help the Rp community by providing rage and irrationality to drive the fence sitter over to read the other side, and end up thinking, damn those bitches be crazy.
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r/TheBluePill/ They talk mostly about TRP. Seems dedicated to being upset over what's said in this sub.
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Tell them that, get back to us on how it went.
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the pill is strong in this one. please apply water to burned area.
owww... Dam! Nice bro. Nice. Be a rock thats what its all about. Firm, strong, respectively assertive desisions
I don't get why this is so cool. Women don't behave like this around me. If she's going to get into all that craziness, why do you even bother? For the sex? Seems like there would be higher quality women to have sex with, this one sounds off the charts crazy to me! Instead of "maintaining frame", I would simply Next her, unless...scarcity mentality.
why is it so important to hold frame and soft next after an incident like this:
when a girl starts drama and you react distant and withdraw your commitment and attention, she realizes that you wont put up with her shit. don't get angry, that will only lower your position in her eyes - you are mean to her, so it is ok to act like this - but if you just withdraw your attention, she will try anything: being angry, crazy, apologizing to get your commitment and attention back.
and here starts the problem: as soon as we crumble and give her the validation she craves, her brain will learn that throwing a hissy fit is the way to go. here is another thing that will be learned: you will learn that it is ok to tolerate her behavior as long as she feels sorry about it later. you will learn that breaking frame gives you a calm girlfriend that wants to cuddle, or so it seems.
you don't want that. she will test you again and again after that. she knows how to get your commitment back. so you either reinforce her behavior by crumbling again and again, or you have to go through with the soft next the next time she acts like this. and believe me, this will happen.
instead you show her how unacceptable her actions are and throw her out. at home she has time to cool down and think about her actions. when you meet her again the next time, she will have learned something important: as soon as she doesn't accept your frame, she is out. and it is not in her power anymore to get your attention back.
Holy crap, I got a boner out of reading that. I ... I don't know how to feel about that.
Perhaps you need some male dominance?
I blew the best LTR of my life doing this. This kind of stuff works on dumb chicks. But if you get with a smart girl that knows you really well (also doesn't pull shit tests like this), this can backfire HUGE.
Anyway, she was stressed from some work bullshit and I was kind of being a dick about it. She started to get mad at me and I "held frame."
Now at this point we'd been living together for a year and for the most part, things were really good. Sex was great. I was attracted to her. She was attracted to me. Fights like this rarely happened. I don't know why but I was being dick to everyone that day.
So she starts getting madder and madder until she just says that "Im sick of this shit, I'll find someone that actually gives a shit about me. I'm out."
And she was fucking out. Thought she'd call me back within a day. That day turned into a week. Week turned into a month.
I ended up calling her a month later. Still single, but not interested in fixing things up. Just wanted to move on.
I ended up dating other girls and stuff. A couple of them were definitely more attractive. But honestly I've never liked anyone like I liked her. I dunno if she was overreacting to me, or if there was something else going on with her family that I didn't know about and was being too much of a douche to ask. I dunno if she was cheating(never had a reason to be suspicious. Was never secretive about what she did or anything like that. Had only like 3 supergay guy friends one of whom I'm still really good friends with. She was raised really well, had a great relationship with her dad, and never lied to me once the entire time we dated. We had sex pretty much every night regardless.)
All I know is this. Holding frame is great advice and everything, but know when you're in the right, and know whose throwing the shit-test at whom.
Smart girls can call you on your bullshit and you can ruin something really good.
Sounds like snowflake syndrome - women come and go - remember that.
"Im sick of this shit, I'll find someone that actually gives a shit about me. I'm out.""
This suggests that she had already pondered leaving you and had one foot out the door already. If I had to put money on it, I'd say the problem started when you had her move in.
Sounds like it had run its course but you didnt realize it. You did the right thing. Instincts are most often right, even if you dont know why. Thats been the biggest lesson for me to learn, always trust my instincts, and dont over analyze situations. Your instincts will usually cut through all the bs and get to the next course of action. When you start analyzing things, emotion and rationalization gets in the way.
tldr; when your gut says its time to walk, its almost always time to walk.
If she was that good to you, that just sounds like you being a dick for no reason. In OP's case, he had good reason to be a dick.
Agreed. That was my point. Wasn't really trying to complain, but just point out that everything can have different context.
Here, on the other hand, is a textbook of example of how NOT to hold frame:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zhaOsF7F050#t=121
I just wanted an excuse to post this scene.
One thing I found with holding frame like this, is bitches can go for good, they can rationalize it with shit like "you don't care enought for me, I don't want to fuck a guy like that, etc"
But overall, good example. Just know that the girl might never come back, but if you really mean that shit, she probably will, and if she doesn't, well you don't need such a plate in your life anyway, and you got 5 more waiting anyway... plates coming and going is just part of life, remember that!
I had a girl who threatened to leave. I called her bluff. She stayed, but she resented me for not giving her commitment. She was obviously not happy in the non-relationship, but she didn't have the self-control to stay away. A wiser girl would have left. An even wiser girl wouldn't have made the threat in the first place, she would have just left.
She's texting me right now.
amen. will a mod please sticky this as an example of holding frame?
I stopped following all this shit and got laid 4 times this week. Downvote me if you agree. Gets.
Ugh, the girl you're describing has no LTR value. That s why this post is so cringey. Not because of some TRP mandates and values.
/u/IllimitableMan said it best. She may have problems, but they all do to varying degrees.
All women are crazy. It just depends on the level of crazy you are comfortable with. Hah
Best recipe?
No Strings Attached.
Always letta
Plate
Crash
I think you should stop seeing her, move on to other plates who are happy to have no strings sex. Keeping this girl who obviously wants more than you are willing to give is just cold. Set her loose so she can find a guy who won't make her feel like crap just because she wants a relationship.
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She sounds frustrated and wants a relationship, that's valid, not ending it with you is the childish bit. Why keep her?
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Ok, so you do hang out with her and talk with her usually, she was just exaggerating this time?
Btw, I know you claim she can't but what happens if she does get pregnant, it seems to be worrying her...
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This is how an alpha acts, huh? Too long winded for me and a tad emotionally abusive. Thanks but no thanks, whether this actually happened or not.
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Where are we leading to, that holding frame equates to being emotionally abusive? The expectation of us taking their shit and them not taking our counter-shits is a handicap game. Yeah, mason, definitely GTFO.
"You still need to leave. I will not deal with these kind of outbursts and it's why we're not exclusive. Come back when you learn how to speak to me in a respectful manner."
That what you said? Long winded to me. Why would you bother with a person that you have to speak to like a child? And you have to tell her she needs to speak to another adult respectfully? You shouldn't have to at all. If that's the type of woman you like to date don't complain about their behavior.
It sounds like you're fucking with the emotions of a girl with low self-esteem. Not exactly something to be proud of.
That's what I got from this story. What woman with self respect would put up with being talked to like an emotionally abusive parent would talk to their child? Only an emotionally damaged one. Is this what TRP is promoting and teaching men? How to be emotionally abusive and manipulative?
"what woman with self respect"
You've seen to many romcoms.
But are you really interested in an LTR?
If you didn't mention that bit about thinking of wanting an LTR, I wouldn't even replied and just saw this as a great example of holding frame.
I think good LTRs have some beta in it while still being alpha. You can't be 100% alpha all the time and expect her to stick around.
Sooner or later she will start to get emotional like this. And if they don't get emotional, they just distance themselves.
I do and I don't want to be in an LTR.
I think I just want a unicorn, but we all know about those...
So is this how you plan on acting all your life? Like training a dog?
If he wants to continue this relationship then it's the best course of action. He's basically teaching her emotion regulation. She could address her feelings in a much calmer fashion and discuss them maturely.
Yes, but is that worth it. To be on constant alert to make her learn? He obviously doesn't do this frame holding unconsciously and he has to think about it. Its kind of a energy drainer. What for? To be in a relationship with an object? Dog to train? Child to raise? Does he need that kind of woman which obviously is not according to his taste.
That's OP's call, he's already having doubts if he should start a LTR with her. She'll get better with time and learn better methods to articulate her feelings, so it's not like she'll always be this way, and she might be a great person otherwise. But I see what you mean. I wouldn't want to be with someone that has these episodes either.
Sometimes having someone less than ideal is better than having no one while waiting for someone worth it to come around.
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You actually weren't. I've scrolled thru all the posts and found multiple posts stating the same thing I posted to some degree. These people know what they're talking about. Getting a women thinking is great... But women as we both know operate on an emotional level for the most part - so trying to get her on an intellectual level isn't ideal. They want to know you can handle them not ditch them when they become emotionally retarded which as any exp guy with chicks should know. Again you almost did it right. Don't have too much of an ego about this and see that other people are suggesting the same thing.
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Dude you've got it down. If you did what /u/cheesymold would have, you would be rewarding her for her after-tantrum pity party AND be unknowingly telling her that laying with you makes everything ALL better! It doesn't and shouldn't. You don't deal with that shit.
I see what you mean seattleron. I read what people were saying and not your responses.
10/10 psychological rape (after physical). Double rape Good job brother
Stop down voting me, white knight orbiters
Your being downvoted because this was not anything like rape- mental or physical. Equating a masculine man holding frame with an emotional, irrational woman to "rape" is offensive.
right, well, whenever you're ready to become an adult, you can get her preggers. Only get married if you trust her and her parents, though.
OTOH, if you just want to fuck around until kingdom come, well, whatever.