[FR] The night before wife leaves for two day business trip

Wife is leaving tomorrow on a business trip for two days. She's been very sweet and sexy the past week, and I was really looking forward to fucking her before she left.

So in bed she starts testing me bad. Stuff like I wasn't jealous enough so I didn't love her, how would I react if she was with another man, would I be mad or sad. Part of me was going "fuck, she's going to ruin it", but red pill me stayed in control. I was not sure if they were shit or comfort tests, but I treated them like shit tests - last night before she's going away I'm not risking going beta on a shit test and failing and not fucking her.

So I a&a and ignore (except for the first time she asked how I would react if she cheated where I said she'd find that was a very bad idea), a shit grin on my face and her eyes are shooting lightning at me and she rolls into how she was unsure of my feelings, I wasn't replying to her texts, etc. I wasn't handling her tests flawlessly, I'm not great at it coming up with good responses but I was holding frame and I continued with "baby that's silly I love fucking you" and pulling off her pants, she complains I only love her for the sex, I run my finger over her waist and hip and say I love that part of her too. And I stick a finger in her pussy and she's really wet. Such a relief! Don't listen to what your wife says!

Sex was great. My wife has some insecurities and issues with her body and she has never been comfortable with me looking at her privates and she hardly ever lets me, but tonight I got her on all fours and fingered her from behind, spreading her buttocks, talking about how good she looked and she went completely along. This is really breaking new ground for us.

MRP is awesome!

[–]DanG39 points10 points11 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago* (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED[S] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]jacktenofheartsMarried MRP APPROVED6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

TL;DR, since this comment ended up being pretty damn long: I propose a theory of hypogamy: branch swinging to a "better" mate, but defining "better for them" as worse than the guy they're with now. Then I suggest why women like OPs wife -- a woman with a combination of "insecurity and low self-worth" + "expectations that expressions of love are emotionally-charged" -- would be prone to doing this.

BPP:

If your wife is asking you about what you would do if she cheated SHE IS THINKING ABOUT CHEATING.

You're right, but it may not just be branch-swinging hypergamy at play here. Well it is, but it may need to be handled differently than "be so goddamn alpha and badass that any male she could possibly cheat on you with would be clearly inferior."

From the OP:

My wife has some insecurities

OP has mentioned his wife's insecurities several times. Perhaps they are only physical, but I've rarely seen physical insecurities that weren't paired with an overall negative self-image. And someone with deep-seated insecurities probably mean she's prone to self-destructive behavior. They can't be happy and confident in good circumstances. They're too insecure to let themselves, feel, well, secure. OP's wife may be hamstering: I have a great husband. Do I deserve a great husband? What am I offering him? I can't possibly be offering him enough. He probably hates me, actually. I bet he does. Is he cheating on me? I'd cheat on me.

Then OP says:

Her dad is screaming jealous and I think she had a boyfriend like that too, so she gets insecure if I don't go apeshit just because some guy ogles her.

Click.

And now apparently she grew up in an environment where "jealousy = love." If you're not jealous, that means you don't love them enough to care enough to let yourself be jealous. Extreme jealousy is usually communicated with extreme emotion. This is what she was raised with. Why do you think she had a boyfriend like that? Of course she was going to pursue relationships modeled after her own parents. This is what we all do by default, until we obtain the self-awareness to do otherwise, and some people never really do.

What should I do? I'm sure my alpha is solid, she wants to be fucked these days and she's complaining she's unsure of me. Do I assure her I love her?

RP concepts like maintaining frame and stoicism are all about "keeping your cool." Don't lose your shit. Don't scream, don't yell, don't whine. Act.

Great advice, but there may be some nuance needed with someone like your wife. Her "what if I cheated?" Shit Tests are a sort of Comfort Test. She's asking: Do you love me enough to be enraged if you found out I cheated?

I don't think she wants to cheat. I think what she wants to do is open a window to an alternate reality where she does cheat, and where she can watch you react and hope you do things like smash your phone on the ground and punch a hole in the wall. And then she would conclude, "Yeah, he loves me. I may still not understand why, but he does. I don't actually need to do all that."

But she can't do that. And her insecurities may make her self-destructive enough to actually cheat. She'll go out with some co-workers or friends. Some loser will hit on her, but she's insecure enough that the overt attraction of another male will still make her feel good, so she'll entertain him. They'll talk. He'll buy her a drink. Eventually, I'm imagining an "Angel" hamster and "Devil" hamster start racing their wheels at a breakneck speed next to each other.

Angel Hamster: You haven't mentioned your husband yet.

Devil Hamster: He hasn't asked.

Angel Hamster: But you should still tell him. It's clear he's sexually interested in you.

Devil Hamster: How do you know? Maybe he's just friendly.

Angel Hamster: You're not interesting enough for someone to want to be 'just friendly' with.

Devil Hamster: OK, but we're just talking. What's the harm in that?

Angel Hamster: Because it's disrespectful to your husband, who by the way, is completely superior to this loser in every way?

Devil Hamster: Yeah, he's so superior I doubt he would he even care if I cheated.

Angel Hamster: Of course he'd care!

Devil Hamster: Why would he though, I'm only good enough for losers like the guy talking to me.

Angel Hamster: Fuck it, do what you want. I'm getting off this wheel and taking a nap.

In a way, it's branch-swinging hypogamy. I really do think this is a "thing." Look at Hollywood. You have an industry that attracts -- if not outright manufactures! -- emotionally damaged women, many of whom have to constantly battle deep-seated insecurities while externally everyone tells them how great and beautiful they are. So you get shit like Britney Spears cheating on Justin Timberlake.

It's still branch swinging to a "better" mate, it's just they define "better for them" at worse than the guy they're with now.

Thoughts for the OP:

So, with that theory presented... fundamentally, I would say the best way forward is for your wife to realize she has some fucked up ideas of her sense of self-worth and love, and she should talk to a professional and get that sorted out. But, well, you've been married long enough that you know that's unlikely to happen, so that advice isn't really helpful.

So here's what I'd suggest. If my little dramatization of your wife's inner monologue made you a little anxious, then I would say good. Find ways to channel that anxiety on occasion. Good Captains maintain their cool, but they also know when a well-timed emotional outburst can have a greater effect. A silence falls over the bridge. Then the crew thinks: Whoa. The Captain lost his cool. The Captain never loses his cool. This is serious.

So I think you need some dashes of this with your wife. Maintain frame, but if she gives you cheating hypotheticals, have a little fun with it. Use words that would imply there would be severe emotional consequences for both you. Because, let's be honest, for all we stress about Outcome Independence, finding out your wife cheated on you is probably second only to the death of a loved one in terms of shitty life events. You can let a little of that leak out, because that's what she wants to hear. She wants to feel secure that you love her enough to be emotionally devastated. It's a stupidly unhealthy way of thinking, but like I said, you can't fix that. All you can really do is modify your behavior slightly, because for someone like her, the whole "I can't control your actions, only how I respond" message is just too much Dread. and as I outlined earlier, insecure women sometimes do stupid shit when there's too much Dread.

Beyond the Shit Test conversations, I'd say do some "light" mate-guarding as well. We frown on overt mate-guarding, of course, but all women like it when their silverback gorilla extends to his full frame and flexes. Doesn't even need to be in the context of other dudes, usually I prefer to do this when my wife has a bad customer service experience. I go into "no one treats my wife like this"-mode and raise hell. You want to be smart about doing this -- chewing out some waiter is just going to make you look like a bully, and yelling a lot without actually accomplishing something is going to make you look impotent.

But if done right, you can solve her problem, and in a way that gives her the emotional expression it sounds like she craves.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

This is a great post and an interesting point. I wouldn't be surprised if this idea of hypogamy existed in a broad scale - i.e. part of why dread causes so much initial discomfort (increase in male SMV = increase in female insecurity). Although I think a complacent women who thinks she has her husband wrapped around her finger isn't going to care or worry -- only when her position is no longer certain will she put in the work to shape up.

I wouldn't be surprised if you're dead on, but since I have no direct experience with this - I'd throw this specific question out to the women. But those are few and far between, so here goes me.

Value giving to someone you care about with insecurities is basically to understand their issues and help alleviate them. Acknowledge both faults and flaws. In this case, something like "I know you don't like how you look, but you still turn me on. Plus, you do x, y, and z which improve my life. It's not a deal breaker for me yet, and if it becomes one, I'll let you know."
All love is conditional. Any idea of unconditional love is absurd. Altruistic, self-sacrificial people get wiped out (exception being the Dalai Lama and I doubt he flies economy).
While we know that love isn't ever lasting, we've also been conditioned to believe love is ever lasting, so the idea of not being in love with someone is like a sharp jab to the ego - you've somehow failed as a wife or husband. Instead of love, talk about respect. The idea is fundamentally the same, but the stigma is much less. You would never be expected to stay with someone you didn't respect. "If I no longer respect you, trust me, I will let you know. Because I respect you, I'm going to be honest about how I feel about you, this includes things that aren't making me happy as well as things that you do that make me happy."

Your job, as an oak and leader, is to make sure that you take care of your crews instability and help them become better people to the best of your ability. Put them in a position to improve, because you can't force their improvement. Worst case scenario, one day, you just stop caring (no love, no respect, no emotions at all), you let her know, and you ditch her. One of the mantras I learned from PUA is that it's better to be forth right than stringing a woman along (don't tell a girl you want to girlfriend her when all you want a fuck buddy). Being up front about intentions is both the honest and decent thing to do, because 1) it gives them a choice to respond to you and 2) while it still hurts, they won't be blind sided.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]jacktenofheartsMarried MRP APPROVED0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

She gets anxious when the intimacy gets too high and then she will often try to distance herself, sometimes with hostility and sometimes with self destructive behavior.

I gotta be honest; this sounds pretty fucking challenging. Too much comfort, and she'll pull away because she's hoping to solicit some intense emotional reaction (e.g. jealousy) that she'll interpret as you loving her. But if that intense emotional reaction is too harsh, then she'll realize she fucked up, which her insecurities will hamster into her being worthless and destined to fuck things up, so she might as well finish the job and torpedo the whole marriage, because she doesn't deserve a guy like you anyway.

"I love you baby. You're so silly to doubt that, why do you think I get so mad sometimes?"

In the short-term, she probably liked hearing that. But you probably don't want to reinforce a direct "the angrier I am, the more I love you" association, which I think that phrase does.

You realize... I mean, this is the shit that abusive spouses say. The fact that you have to essentially "pretend" to say that shit is unfortunate.

You mentioned the Sex God Method working really well for you. Given you described yourself as a "phlegmatic type," I wonder if you could bring more "DEVI" into your everyday life too. Every part of DEVI is anything but phlegmatic.

This might be why she said "you only love me for the sex." I think she may be saying: you only love me the way I want you to love me during sex.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I gotta be honest; this sounds pretty fucking challenging.

It is. The dynamic is a bit different than what you describe (google fearful-avoidant if you want the standard psych explanation - it's mostly on point though they don't get the idea of shit tests and passing them), but it is very difficult. She basically does the opposite than me: If I'm nice she's nasty, and if I'm nasty she's nice. She has close to zero need for intimacy and if I'm productive around the house and kids and show outcome indepence when I want something from her, she'll reject everything and never approach me.

SGM works very good in bed, but I'm not sure it will work outside. Too much emotion, that freaks her out and she gets very hostile. I even thinks she's scared of the sex too, she shit tests like crazy leading up to it. A few days ago she was asking for sex during the day, then when we were about to get down to it in bed she keeps on pinching me and stuff like that and she wouldn't let up no matter what I tried (short of getting physical). I ended up saying she could stop that and suck my dick or I'd leave, and then I went to watch TV instead. She texted me something about how I shouldn't disrespect her and her sexiness, and I replied "ok next time I'll just pin you down. Your safeword is omaplata". Next morning, I'm getting kisses all over and fellatio.

I'm experimenting a lot with how to handle her and our marriage is very solid at the moment so I have room to make some mistakes. I'm confident I can recover from them. Maybe something like DEVI is the solution. It just seems very difficult to get the dominance going outside of the bedroom. Even if I growl it like Batman anything with "I love you" it won't have the dominance element you get from pinning her down and pounding her.

[–]CaptainWasHereMRP APPROVED / MRP Diplomat0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

She gets anxious when the intimacy gets too high and then she will often try to distance herself,

This is classic "Fear of Success". We don't mention enough here how many people (men and women) have a damaged/low self-esteem. This often manifests itself in self-sabotaging behavior which can either keep "success" away, or blow "success" up once it feels too good. These thoughts include, "He only says nice things to me b/c he has to as my hubby." and "I don't deserve a husband that loves me b/c I'm worthless (so I may as well cheat and fuck it up)." You can see how all this leads to people doing stupid things b/c it just reinforces their own self-image - that they are a crappy person.

A good therapist and the right chats with you can help if she sees the problem and is willing to address it. Help her fix this and she (and you) will be a stronger, happier couple.

That's part of why RP works so well. It gets under the conscious brain and even subconscious generational issues to the evolutionary core of our human nature. It works regardless of inner-dialog, societal pressure and daddy issues.

[–]marxistbacon 1 points1 points1 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This is a terrific analysis and I think there's a huge amount of truth to the general idea. As with so many thing in life, there are layers on layers and wheels within wheels.

My general take on RP is that in any relationship there are two general layers: the RP principles, and also the individual psychological issues of the two partners. Learning the RP principles is the first step in fixing things, and if the other issues are small we can chalk it up to a simple RP success story. But when there are more serious underlying psychological issues, things get more interesting, and you as the man have to do a lot more work on yourself and understanding yourself and your own motivations before you can actually internalize all the alpha characteristics: dominance, confidence, solid frame and so on.

I think the hypogamy theory fits nicely into this second (individual) layer in the case when the specific psychology is there. While there's no doubt some insecurity in everyone, I think the scenario here really activates in a more pathological case of self-esteem.

I also touched on this a little in a post in another thread yesterday, but broken people attract broken people. Marrying a woman with these tendencies likely indicates that OP has something in his psyche that makes him feel like he deserves her, or needs to fix her, or clicks with her, or understands her, or some kind of dysfunction like that. (No disrespect or attack intended, just stating an observation). While analysing her motives and psychology, he could do well by using this as a learning opportunity to dive into his own and try to figure out how he subconsciously benefits from choosing a woman with this dynamic.

[–]jacktenofheartsMarried MRP APPROVED2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago [recovered] (0 children) | Copy Link

Great viewpoint, and exactly why I hang out in MRP and only occasionally skim TRP.

RP is a set of tools. It is naive to think we all need to use all the same tools identically. Some of the tools, yeah. This is why we parrot "DO YOU EVEN LIFT BRO?" to the point of parody. Because no matter what your situation is, there is never a situation where lifting will not benefit you. It's like a hammer in your toolbox. You will always need a hammer. There is literally not a single thing you can build without a hammer at some point. The guys that said, "I don't lift, but I'm fit" are basically saying, "I don't have a hammer, but I just bang nails either rocks." Dude, it's not the same thing. Get a real fucking hammer. You'll thank us later.

But you're limiting RP if you focus only on the hammer. The main TRP sub is a bunch of dudes that have found their hammers and love banging them around. "Hammers are great. I can't believe society discourages owning hammers. Those goddamn hypergamous cock carouseling sluts say they hate hammers, but they love them. Here's a field report about how I banged my hammer really loud against a concrete wall, and this girl let me fuck her in the ass." Bro harder, bro.

Owning the hammer is not the point. Building something with the hammer is. What should you build? How should you use that hammer? What other tools do you need for what you build? At what point do you balance getting a bigger hammer vs getting more tools?

These are the second level questions. AWALT is true, except when it's not. It's like saying "all woodworking projects are wood." Sure. All types of wood have common properties. All types of wood want a nail hammered into them. Don't delude yourself that your wood is special.

(man, I am so goddamn fucking clever)

Anyway - beyond that, we all come here with different tools and our wives are different types of building materials. The guys that come here and are like, "I've been following RP for a month, my marriage did a 180, I'm getting a beej right now actually." Cool. Probably a guy who already had a full set of tools and dusted them off and actually used them.

A lot of the rest of us though, aren't so fortunate. We don't have the tools, or our wives are pieces of wood that are especially fragile or stiff. What then? This is where MRP really becomes "thinking man's Red Pill" IMO. How much Dread is too much? What should you do if A/A just isn't something you're good at? What if your wife is a type A control freak?

Different people, different tools, different projects. They all require different answers.

[–]AZTRP2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED[S] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AZTRP0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points1 points 9 years ago | Copy Link

[–]KyfhoMyobaMRP APPROVED0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Title	[FR] The night before wife leaves for two day business trip
Author	Sepean
Upvotes	7
Comments	21
Date	April 16, 2015 9:52 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MarriedRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/32us5d/fr_the_night_before_wife_leaves_for_two_day/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MarriedRedPill/fr-the-night-before-wife-leaves-for-two-day.202124 https://theredarchive.com/post/202124