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How to become Outcome Independent using a Stoic trick

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December 27, 2014

A common question we get here is how to be outcome independent about wanting sex from your wife. If her main power has been closing her legs, and you came here trying to figure out how to make her open them, and then, the advice you get is “It doesn’t matter if she opens them”, it would seem like this community is useless. This is not true.

With this post I will explain how Outcome Independence works, and how to use it to get what you want.

I will use Stoic philosophy to explain Outcome Independence. Stoicism is Greco-Roman philosophy with the goal of accepting reality as the key to inner peace. This allows you to become a clear thinker so you can optimize your energy to virtuous causes that you can contribute to. Essentially, Stoicism is a philosophy of maintaining Frame. There are many aspects of it that apply to this, but for now, I’ll focus now on how to become Outcome Independent.

When confronted with a problem, a Stoic would ask if it is something outside your control, or in your control. If the problem is outside your control, then a Stoic concludes that since there is nothing you can do about it, so you shouldn’t worry. Accept that, and move on to other things. There is no point in wasting energy if you can’t affect the outcome. This is the reason, for example, I don’t even worry about the possibility of being struck by a meteorite as I type this. Yeah, it can happen, but there is nothing I can do about it, so why bother? On the other hand, if something is under your control, then, the stoic would say there is no reason to worry either because you can manage the issue! I don’t worry about breathing right now because breathing is right now fully under my control.

That is all there is to staying calm when facing problems: if something is outside your control, don’t waste emotional energy on it. If something is inside your control, plan what you will do about it, work hard at it, but don't worry more. So far, this is all very obvious, so if this was what Zeno, Cicero, Seneca, Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius talked about, what is the big fuss?

Well, the fuss is that there are some problems that are not fully under our control, or fully out of control. One such problem is having sex with our wives. Clearly part of it is under our control, but she has a lot of power over the whole thing as well. This is why we worry so much about such problems: we can’t put it in the category of “don’t worry, I got it” nor in the category of “don’t worry, there is nothing I can do about”. It is a partial control problem, and we feel invested because we try to do well with what is under our control, but then we get frustrated for what isn't, try to things under our control that are ineffectual or backfire because we don't accept we don't have full control and often beg her in desperation. These partial control problems are the ones that make us waste energy, lose frame, and lose perspective. They lead to frustration and even resentment.

The Stoics noticed that there is one power that you have to conquer all these problems. This post is about that power. This is power nobody can ever take away from you. This power is the key to having Frame, Outcome Independence, passing all the shit tests, and getting all the sex you want.

"Man is disturbed not by things, but by the views he takes of them." - Epictetus

We have the power to redefine problems. Others might define problems for us, but we should always reject that, and instead define the problem in terms of what is under our control, and what isn’t. The way to always have Outcome Independence is that we have to redefine the problem in a way that we do not depend on others or circumstances to obtain them. Why? Because others are not under our control. So instead we change our perception of the problem such that it is all under our influence. This is Outcome Independence: we define the problem such that the other person has zero power over affecting its outcome. We are not subject to anyone in this way.

To make it more concrete, I’ll go now to the reason most find this subreddit: husbands wanting more/better sex from their wives. Here lies the problem. The problem isn't the wife closing her legs. The problem is how the husband defined the issue! The husband has NO power over this as defined, the wife has all the power. She can close her legs, there is nothing he can do about that. So the husband worries and becomes resentful because he can’t control her. The Stoics would tell the husband to accept he can’t control her and stop begging her. Instead, the stoic husband must redefine the problem into something that is under his control. Decide you will work hard to become the man women want to have sex with. For example, workout, improve your assertiveness and expand your social circles. This is all 100% under the husbands control. Eat better, dress better, become the best version of you. This is all under the husbands control. Why? Because by focusing on all that, the husband doesn’t have to worry about what is outside his control. But also, this redefinition makes it more likely to make him happier because he will become more attractive, which increases the likelihood of having sex either with the wife, or with anyone else.

The Stoics would advise /r/marriedredpill: Become Outcome Independent by focusing on self improvement, which is all under your control. Read MMSLP and have a Man Action Plan of self improvement. Don’t worry about your wife's actions, she isn’t under your control. This is a form of dread, but notice how powerful it is: there is nothing the wife can do to stop you from getting to your goal now of becoming a better man. You defined the problem now so she has no power over you, but you seem more powerful to her. You changed the power dynamics only because you redefined the issue. This sense of power comes from your OI, and it is incredibly attractive in itself! Nobody likes someone that begs for stuff, but everyone loves someone that is driven to success and want to be part of his life. Note that OI frees you from resentment because she can’t block your way to your goals anymore. This has a side effect that you also become happier with her, which also improves the relationship. And if she comes around and starts giving you head, great. But if she doesn’t, then you are ready to Next her for someone else. Independent of what she decides to do, you get the Outcome that you wanted. You don't demand she desires you, you just become a desirable man independent of her opinion of you.

This is the ultimate way to demonstrate Frame: you are the only person that defines the problems in your life. You do so in such a way you that the burden of overcoming them becomes all yours. You don't blame others, you don't beg to others. But you put all your energy on solving that problem you defined, and waste none in worrying about what is not under your control. Most people can’t do this. And those that do it become leaders, because others sense how they will get to the goal, and try to join them to be part of the ride. And all comes from a very simple mind hack that some dead greeks came up with. Don’t say you want more sex from your wife. Say you want to become the man women want to have sex with. This way the outcome if fully under your control!

tl;dr - Redefine problems always such that you fully control their outcome. This places the burden of overcoming them fully on you, but also, frees you from having to beg others to do what you want. This is Outcome Independence.

Post Information
Title How to become Outcome Independent using a Stoic trick
Author strategos_autokrator
Upvotes 42
Comments 14
Date 27 December 2014 07:25 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit MarriedRedPill
Original Link
Similar Posts

Red Pill terms found in post:
dread gameframeshit testassertiveclose

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 13 points14 points  (2 children) | Copy

I should also add that this Stoic trick isn't for everyone. It requires big cojones. By redefining the problem such that the burden is on you, it means you can't blame others anymore for your lack of success, you must face the challenge, you have no excuses now. This is what is so hard about this: it just reminds you are always the captain, even when you are drunk. Some feel oppressed by this responsibility and prefer to stay as a drunk captain to forget it.

Essentially, this trick forces you to Own Your Shit, and stop blaming others for not getting what you want. This is very difficult to do, but if you don't do it, it is your own fault.

Also, this trick allows you to PASS shit tests better. Instead of getting resentful at the shit tests, you accept them as they are, and then, just work on passing them. Once you accept that you can't stop them, but you can respond better, all the resentment vanishes. Heck, I have even started to enjoy shit tests lately!

[–]CaptainWasHereMRP Approved / MRP Diplomat1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's surprising how many guys play the blame game. Damn near everything in our lives is in some way our control. We may not like the hard work it takes to get to the goal line, but the attitude is still on us. We own our actions, our reactions, and our attitude towards everything.

This sub has taught me how terribly off my tools have been for this problem. I identified the issues (which obviously isn't hard), and tried the solutions I knew. Man, I worked hard with the tools I had, only to get nowhere. Then TRP found me. No I know I was hacking away with BP solutions that were only making it worse, turning her off more, wasting whole days with a crap attitude, etc. I see that now.

The passionate kisses tip is amazing. I thought I was giving her those too, until you described them. Man, that's the stuff that gets a girl going. Thanks OP. This just gave me a better plan for the weekend.

  • Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

You are becoming a guru! Great post.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy

And this is why I did not want to bar female participation on this sub.

Since the pretty ladies are not lining up to offer their perspective on this question after my pirate post stickied on the sidebar ("Ladies Read Before Posting") then as an old married guy of 20+ years who has studied women like a freacking Doctor of Philosophy or something allow me.

To a woman, there is little that is less seductive than a whining, bitching, NEEDY man. You got married and committed to only her being your sexual outlet. You are faithful and loyal just like a dumb smelly flea bitten puppy. You would never "cheat" and now she has you, literally, by the balls.

The problem is the more you need it, the more you beg, whine, cry, bitch, moan, complain OR EVEN REACT to the denial the LESS attractive you become. The more you react the more needy you seem and the more you are like a whiny little boy who is not getting his candy.

Can you appreciate that women are not programmed to like having sex with whiny little boys pouting about not getting their candy?

And if you whine and beg and plead so much that she "gives in" how is she going to feel with that inferior little boy's dick inside her? If you said it must feel like being raped then a gold star for you.

A particularly cruel aspect of this dynamic from the perspective of the woman is that she gets PLEASURE from denying sex. It is like a bratty little kid holding out meat for a hungry dog and then jerking it away. All little kids do this- and ALL women will do this if you let them.

So if you react you are REWARDING HER. You are giving her a jolt of pleasure chemicals God or nature intended her to get from sex. Instead, you give it to her by your twisting and contorting in pain and her feeling the power of causing that pain.

The solution is Stoic Outcome Independence. Don't react to her denials. Don't reward a bully with your attention. Eventually you will approach an ultimatum point where you simply inform her that sex is something you need and you are not going to live your life without it. Work on your stoicism until you get to that point because that is the end of a long process of self improvement.

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

At first I felt a lot of resentment because I started to understand that she enjoyed somehow emasculating me in this way. But then I realized that I could change my perception of that as well. I just had to accept that if I begged for what I wanted, I wasn't going to get it. I then realized that she wasn't emasculating me, I was putting my own balls on a cutting board and giving her a knife, begging her to do it. It was my own fault she didn't treat me like a man, so instead, she treated me like a little boy, and she like my mom. It was her solution to having some sort of stable relationship since I wasn't being a man. She enjoyed this, but only because she couldn't enjoy me as a man, so this was second best. I stopped feeling resentful. She tried to make things work her way because I wasn't doing my share.

Then I realized that Stoic Outcome Independence is the only way. It is what women really want from you. If you don't do that, then yeah, they come up with emasculating behaviour only because you as a man are introducing instabilities in the relationship, so the women tries to stabilize them by acting like your mom. But that is not their fault, it is yours because you weren't OI.

[–]alpha_n3rdMarried3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Great post! Very well said.

[–]Nycredpilldad2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Quality post. There may be some hope for this sub after all.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

Excellent post dude.

As someone who reads quite a bit, I think it's time I picked up 'Meditations' by Marcus Aurelius.

[–]strategos_autokratorMan, Married, Mod[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Marcus Aurelius is a great writer.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Stoicism has been a big influence on me of late, so I love posts like this, showing the many ways it can affect our enjoyment of life. It is clear to me that there is a strong streak of Stoicism (in the original sense, not current dictionary sense) in TRP. I guess that is why I feel at home here.

Since you mentioned Meditations, I'll put in a word for the other Roman Stoics: Epictetus, Gaius Musonius Rufus, and Seneca. All of their works can be obtained cheaply, which is one of the great things about the modern world. Irvine (reference below) says this about them:

"The contributions these four made to Roman Stoicism were nicely complementary. Seneca was the best writer of the bunch, and his essays and letters to Lucilius form a quite accessible introduction to Roman Stoicism. Musonius is notable for his pragmatism: He offered detailed advice on how practicing Stoics should eat, what they should wear, how they should behave towards their parents, and even how they should conduct their sex life. Epictetus's speciality was analysis: He explained, among other things, why practicing Stoicism can bring us tranquility. Finally, in Marcus's Meditations, written as a kind of diary, we are privy to the thoughts of a practicing Stoic: We watch as he searches for Stoic solutions to the problems of daily life as well as the problems he encountered as emperor of Rome."

But I also want to recommend three new books that I have got a lot out of (apologies if these are mentioned elsewhere, I had a look around and couldn't see them).

Philosophy for Life: and other dangerous situations. Jules Evans. This one isn't just about Stoicism, but the other ancient greek schools of practical philosophy as well, such as Cynicism and Epicureanism.

A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy. William B. Irvine.

Stoicism and the Art of Happiness. Donald Robertson.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thank you for the response and resources, they are greatly appreciated. I will definitely be heeding your advice and adding the mentioned works to my collection.

[–]crayonsred2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Great post.

"Reframing" the problem to maintain "Frame."

[–]GentleGiant3501 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

There is also dread. You want to be somewhat careful about this, but if things get bad enough, instead of begging, you can indicate or hint that you're going to get sex one way or the other, with her or without her.

You didn't enter a marriage to be celibate.

You can even write it off as a big joke, but the point will be made.

This I suggest would be the next step after OI is unsuccessful. At that point, you should be ready for her to serve papers, because she has well and truly lost attraction to you and it's probably over. This is kind of a last-ditch, hail mary thing. It establishes you as an alpha with abundance mentality, who is in control of his own sex life and sexual destiny in spite of her efforts to put it under her control.

Maybe get her legs tingling. Maybe run her off. Either way, problem solved...

[–]GunsGermsAndSteel1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is the best red pill thread I've ever seen.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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