The NMMNG / Red Pill contradiction

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August 29, 2018

The book No More Mr Nice Guy is an essential start on the Red Pill journey and is listed as the first book to read on all of the RP sidebar material. I am working my way through the book and it has been helpful, eye-opening and revealing. One theme that comes up a few times in the book is that Nice Guys are essentially sneaks. They hide feelings and desires to the point that it creates a series of symptoms that undermine their ability to have healthy, productive relationships.

One of the first recommendations in the book is to talk about your journey with your SO. Anyone on MRP or askMRP will understand how fraught this is. When I first saw that advice I did a full stop. Subsequently I've seen comments on MRP & askMRP echoing my reaction that this is terrible advice. RP is fundamentally a solitary activity and how do you have a conversation with your LTR that you are getting advice from strangers on how to be less of a pussy and improve your alpha male traits? That seems counterproductive at best. But then we're back to these Nice Guy tendencies to sneak around and hide things.

Does this bother anyone else? How have you resolved this issue?

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Title The NMMNG / Red Pill contradiction
Author IRunYourRiver
Upvotes 13
Comments 47
Date 29 August 2018 02:00 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
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Red Pill terms found in post:
alphalong term relationshipthe red pillNMMNG

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret30 points31 points  (5 children) | Copy

The books are going to conflict. Where there is a contradiction RP overrules.

Above all action reigns supreme. Women in no way give a flying fuck about what you feel. In fact they will use it against you. The hard part is telling other men how you feel. For the most we part they DGAF either BUT it is far healthier for a man to tell other men. Take your lumps and move on with it.

In the last couple months I have made more progress then I ever thought possible and I happened in one OYS post. The harsher the critic on your posts the more growth will happen if you take thier advice to heart. Growth happens in pain. Pain is nothing else but change, and change is the purpose here.

Above all remember you can feel anger without being angry. Sadness without being sad, and joy without being euphoric. Be consistent in action and word despite your emotions.

[–]IRunYourRiver[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

Women in no way give a flying fuck about what you feel. In fact they will use it against you.

Yup. Just starting my RP journey, but this is the best revelation so far. I am often surprised how much of this information is basic intuition and instinct that has been clouded by bad advice from the BP-industrial complex.

[–]MrChad_ThundercockBig Red Machine6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

They just want you to “get it”.

Their Feelz before Realz - what they want

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

I have absolutely found the same in my journey: the more I share here, the more truthful I am, the harsher the advice, the better my results - the most direct way through my own personal bullshit into the great fucking beyond. Thanks to MCT, weakandsensitive, and several others, this path has been remarkably lucrative.

[–]MrChad_ThundercockBig Red Machine1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

How you been at balancing it all ?

Still only fuck in the evenings?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yes, actually. Balance overall has been decent. More shit tests lately, she's done giving me time and space and starting to see where I'm really at, which is good. I'm much more confident lately, and she's really starting to respond now. I fucked up and went rambo the other day, but I smoothed things over by passing a few comfort tests.

This still hasn't translated to breaking through her tendency to compartmentalize day/work VS. sex/play/night.

[–]nothestrawberrypatch16 points17 points  (8 children) | Copy

I had this conversation with my wife.

It helped and it didn’t. It helped when she wanted to feel compassion for me. It also didn’t help when she wanted to be angry and blame me for something.

She didn’t quite understand what a covert contract was. She thought every single thing I did for her our whole relationship was to get something from her. So she lost trust in me. Once she lost that the relationship began to unfold.

NMMNG warned me of this. TRP made it so I’m not sulking in my bedroom alone.

[–]iloveairplane10 points11 points  (2 children) | Copy

Yeah this is exactly what I saw.... "anything you say, can and will be used against you in a court of law by your wife whenever it is convenient for her." Basically any ammo I gave her came out when she needed to reframe things her way.

If I were to do this whole thing over again, I would remain STFU about my journey, but be remain open/direct about my goals and desires.

[–]nothestrawberrypatch5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

STFU 100%. It’s hard but the times of compassion she had did not outweigh in the slightest the unjustified anger she’s grown toward me.

[–]maxofreddit2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I would remain STFU about my journey, but be remain open/direct about my goals and desires.

This right here, kids, this is it.

You share with her where you’re going by actually going there. No by talking about it/rehashing your past. 90% of the time she doesn’t actually care why, she cares if it’s consistent, & if there’s a wobbl in your frame.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

How is your relationship now?

[–]nothestrawberrypatch4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy

We’re split up. She’s in raging blame me for all of our failures bitch mode. It’s for the better. I realized all of her psychological abuse mechanisms through learning NMMNG and TRP principles.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

That’s good that you recognized her abusive behavior. How are you holding up since the split?

[–]nothestrawberrypatch4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

She’s trying her best to mind fuck me and make me feel some sort of emotion. It doesn’t work. If anything it’s making me feel less guilty that I have 3 tinder dates set up for the next 3 nights with 3 different women.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

It’s terrible that they can do that. My wife does stuff to me like that sometime. I don’t have any dates lined up but I’ve got plenty of stuff to keep me busy away from her.

[–]JudgeDoom6914 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy

It depends on your wife. Sometimes a harpy will use such information as a weapon against you. Others will have the maturity to appreciate your effort toward self-improvement and be supportive.

It's your call, but the fact that you're here would indicate you should keep your mouth closed, at least until you're further along.

Nothing in the sidebar is gospel. Absorb the information and then tailor it to your own unique situation.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I think that if your wife is one to use your cry for help as ammo for a future battle, it makes for a very easy choice on killing the puppy.

[–]2ndalRed Beret12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy

People bring up this exact contradiction all the time here and it's a perfect example to re-enforce the idea that throughout life you must be critical in everything you read and learn, take nothing at face value, and ultimately make your own decisions—including what I, and everyone else here, says. Take what works, discard the rest.

(FWIW I read NMMNG before I found MRP and I followed his advice to talk to my wife about it and later regretted it. When she's in a cranky mood she will still occasionally bring up that book as some marker for things changing for the worse. When she's in a good mood she will still occasionally bring up that book as some marker for things changing for the better. Go figure.)

[–]SorcererKingMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

In other words, we all need to dial the autism down from 11 to 7 or less.

[–]dandar460011 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy

The target audience is a hubby plugged into the matrix or a wife trying to sober up her drunken captain. I actually read MMSLP first. Then moved to NMMNG so I skipped the sex moratorium part.

I was fat, asking wife about any expense, in a semi-dead bedroom with BJs a fond memory. After reading half of NMMNG I signed up to a gym even though a month before she "forbid" me from spending the $30 a month it would cost me. Then told her about the gym, the book and that I wanted to have sex at least twice a week. You would think she would laugh me out of the house.

It was a success beyond my wildest dreams. She was glad I signed up to the gym. Afraid NMMNG was going to make me into an asshole but otherwise supportive and agreeable. We were fucking like rabbits, 5 days a week and sometimes twice on saturday or Sunday.

Before the book she criticized me about my fitness as a father and a husband and that one was enough and don't expect a second. After? Per MMSLP the only place I came was either her mouth (BJs were back in full force) or in her pussy. She soon got pregnant with our second.

So for me, the book's recommendation was a big success. Having said that, she was a good woman in the first place. Exclusively with me since turning 16. She never rode the carousel or had an ex in her life. So as with everything YMMV.

[–]CoachDad98 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy

I told my wife I was part of a men's group on reddit. She doesnt care and we've never talked about it again.

[–]iloveairplane4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Best honest answer I should have given my wife when she was curious about all my reading. Going through MMSLP, NMMNG, and other books/forums - there is some talk about involving your spouse - but that is BP advise. She will be attracted to you when you fix yourself and become the best version of you through the process....the hamster won't care about how you got there, nor will she help you.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

This is precisely what I've shared with my own wife.

She occasionally asks me about it., so it's clearly figuring into her context of the changes I've been making.

[–]Mukato1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's how her hamster is processing the changes.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

NMMNG exposes some of the broken psychology that a journey through the red pill also tries to help fix. That being said, they're not the same thing. You've seen one obvious place where they don't line up.

As far as "resolving" the conflict, consider that the general sneakiness Glover speaks of is part of shame, part of a covert contract to get sex, or some other unskillful behaviour. Simply not making a point of boasting or broadcasting the fact that you're trying to get your head and your life together isn't sneaky unless you're doing it for the reasons I mentioned.

Getting yourself together because you want to get yourself together is noble goal and there's nothing "sneaky" about not sharing every single thing you do in your life with your woman. In fact, sharing everything is one of the pillars of unattractiveness. You always need some mystery to build attraction, and the occasional time where she sees you've handled something you needed to long before it even crossed her radar to make her feel your competence.

In a lot of ways, broadcasting your self development may advertise a need for validation ("look mommy what I'm doing"), an obvious admission of defects on your part which can and will be used against you in the court of your wife's opinion, and can trigger the obvious wall of blathering and argument-bait when the cognitive dissonance hits her between what she thinks she wants you to do and what she actually finds subconsciously attractive. Glover is IMHO operating from a more romanticized view of male-female interactions in which communication is always good.

[–]alphasixfour7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

I don't see this as contradictory. Pre NMMNG and Red Pill I would bottle up all of my anger until something (usually little) pushed me over the edge and I would explode at my wife or kids.

As I improve my frame, I call out the shit that genuinely bothers me right when it happens. As a result, less shit actually bothers me. Half of my anger was at the fact that I felt like I had to control my anger like mommy taught me to and be nice. Read when I say no I feel guilty.

Same with desires, now I don't sneak around and try to manipulate my wife into wanting to have sex with me while retaining plausible deniability. She knows I want to have sex, but I just focus on my own shit and initiate when I feel like it. Less anger, less covert contracts, less hiding.

At the same time, lots of things I don't tell her now because it doesn't concern her (I handle my shit), would be detrimental to keeping mystery or tingles alive, or because it would be counterproductive to my mission right now. I do constantly check myself to make sure I am not operating out of fear of discovery.

True frame is when you can be yourself, hide nothing and wouldn't give a shit if she read every post on MRP because there is fuckall she could do about it and you DNGAF if she did.

It takes a while to get there. If you give her all the ammo up front the the Alpha act will be seen as LARPing before it is internalized and the shit tests will be that much harder to overcome.

Just focus on yourself. Having the truth doesn't mean you need to tell her everything you feel or know. That is validation seeking behavior. Tell her what she needs to know or what you want her to know and don't worry so much about the rest.

[–]helaughsinhidden7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

how do you have a conversation with your LTR that you are getting advice from strangers on how to be less of a pussy and improve your alpha male traits?

You don't do that.

First rule of fight club is you don't talk about fight club.

This also means you can't quote any sources, you can't reference an author as a source of authority, you can only use the wisdom itself and it NEEDS to appear to have come from you and you alone.

How do you explain your new updated beliefs and change in behavior patterns?

I have found it helpful to inform my wife that I have been reflecting a lot and I have a desire to improve who I am. That I am spending more time thinking about the kind of man I am and who I have been and who I want to be. I am going to be checking out a couple books and podcasts, but that's as much detail as I have provided.

Why be secretive?

Firstly, if she knows I am reading a specific book like when she and I read the Five Love Languages together, she used that as a set of "new rules" for me. She didn't change a dam thing knowing that I appreciate physical touch, but sure brought up her need for affirmation and maybe communication too? Not sure, I wasn't really listening.

This also helps when I have caught myself about to say something really weak and done a full stop mid-sentence. She's nosy, so she will try to figure out what I was going to say and I will remind her that I am trying to be a better man and it's not always easy to break old habits. I would never recommend a full sit-down talk where you divulge your sources, materials, Reddit username (get a new one if she knows this one), or YouTube channels. The only source I might us is biblical narratives and even that's rare.

Possible exceptions.

I mentioned she's nosy, so there are some books that are less RP that I found useful that I will tell her about or recommend knowing she won't like it. Dale Carnegie, Zig Ziglar, and Jordan Peterson come to mind off the top of my head. The sidebar isn't really beneficial for her to know about.

[–]Two_kids_in_a_coat8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

It’s a great book but worth a rewrite just to remove that part. It’s unbelievably terrible advice to tell your woman that you’re a giant pussy trying to become manly.

[–]JDRoedellRed Beret4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

This gets brought up every few months. The answer is absolutely do NOT talk about it with the SO. It’s the one thing in that book that’s not promoted here.

[–]weakandsensitive5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy

Does this bother anyone else?

No. The use of individual judgment for your individual situation. There's a huge faulty premise in applying distributions to the individual.

One theme that comes up a few times in the book is that Nice Guys are essentially sneaks.

The problem inherent is one of authenticity - with the more important question being how you want to address ongoing changes. The prospective audience (i.e. your wife) is going to judge you as fake, until you aren't.

Imagine trying to learn how to be a magician. You're just starting out and tell everyone. You've read some cute kids books on how to do simple card tricks. Now, you're doing the trick for them and asking to judge your performance. You suck - and you stumble - but you mostly pull it off, and declare in victory "I am a magician!". You think anyone believes you? They don't, which is why you look so much more ridiculous when you do. They know all you've done is read a couple of books and practice a couple of tricks.

But you know, with more practice, you can master some of the technique (sleight of hand, misdirection, etc) and competently pull of tricks while understand the predicates of how magic actually works. So the question becomes, at what point are you actually a magician?

For the people you told at the start, you've basically given the first impression that you're a complete idiot who hasn't done anything, and everything you do learn is just someone else's tricks. They're not yours - you just copied someone else's works, even if you've managed to pull them off persuasively. That's the first impression you've forced them to have.

Because it's true - for most guys on this journey, you're all just trying to turn tricks, trying to convince your wife you're more than you are. At what point does the magic actually kick in?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy


At what point does the magic actually kick in?

Thursday. Definitely Thursday. Unless you're not autistic.

[–]pridebrah0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Great analogy.

[–]MrChad_ThundercockBig Red Machine9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy

Nmmng is retarded about communicating and the sex moratorium advice.

Book is only good about covert contracts.

[–]drty_prRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I think it's an amazing book for showing people just how much they are a product of their past and everything that happened in it.

[–]MrChad_ThundercockBig Red Machine3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

“how do you have a conversation with your LTR that you are getting advice from strangers”

Are you fucking for real?

This is still blue pill faggot talk. Chicks do that.

This journey is all about you. Don’t feelz the need to explain shit. You and her aren’t a team- despite what you’ve been told by the marriage experts. It’s a scam dude.

She loses attraction EVERYTIME you show beta/comfort traits. Those things don’t get you pussy.

Let her hamster start running and fill in the blanks. There’s a reason the wizard has his curtains closed in Oz. STFU faggot.

Did you go through the anger phase yet? Sounds like you only got the tip in.

[–]IRunYourRiver[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

If this is only the tip, I must be hung like friggin' LeBron James. Seriously, I'm counting my pre-RP phase as part of the anger phase. I wouldn't have gotten anything out of this 6 months ago. Someday I'll do an OYS about the early days of this.

And I hope you're keeping your responses somewhere. Fucking classics.

[–]RedPill-BlackLotusRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

There are no rp rules, they are just guidelines.

The stfu is for new people who have no frame. Some of the other replies used the play on words "anything you say can and will be used against you in..." and that's a perfect description of how it works.

When someone gets burned by the cops the advice is to "shut the fuck up and wait for a lawyer" because you need a law degree to navigate the mine field that is communicating with police.

The stfu strategy we all profess here is for that same reason. Communicating with your harpy wife is just like talking to the cops. Things you think won't incriminate you defiantly can and they always do. You need frame to communicate with your wife properly just like the criminal would need a law degree to talk to the cops.

There was a fantastic post on the mrp main sub once about being a judge. It works perfectly here with then law analogy. If you watch court tv and see a trial in action you will see two lawyers spewing out words and arguments for hours. Then, after sufficient time has passed, the judge looks up, says a few sentences, and it's over.

New guys are the criminals at the table. If you establish a bit of frame and internalize some of rp concepts you graduate to lawyer.

The goal is to become the judge. The judge is silent the whole time and just listens then passes judgment. The judges word is the final word and is law. Thats the strongest frame you can get.

If you are reading the side bar stuff your frame is shit and stfu is always the best bet. Stfu and become the judge.

[–]RPWolfAlpha_as_Wolf_2.02 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I read this book Pre-RP and have actually spoke with Dr. Glover about this specific part and the sex moratorium. Both of those I unfortunately followed. The sex moratorium simply gave her a break from me autisticlly initiating every day. The talk about it she used as ammo to say our entire marriage felt like a lie and that I never did anything genuine in our entire marriage towards her. It was all to get sex.

Dr. Glover has stated he was not RP when he wrote the book and was actually in the motions of becoming more RP when I spoke with him.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Here's the problem with conversations like that:

They're easy to perceive (even if the intention is not) as approval seeking behavior. And you will expect some positive outcome which in turn is a covert contract.

It's like a lingering sharing signal the author must just stick in his book in what I see as an olive branch to traditional therapy or some way to keep that apron string tied to his peers.

Even a great book (full of diamonds) has the occasional nugget of turd.

It flies in the face of action...not words, move people to see you in a different light.

Those that talk about the gym and their diets are the ones least likely to keep it up. It plays into the reward center of your brain without the real effort.

If you want to share changes they should be with things other than with who you are. Just demonstrate with action and the evidence will be communicated that way.

[–]BobbyPeruRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Every book on the sidebar is going to be imperfect.

I have yet to read a perfect book yet.

Don’t get hung up on one paragraph in a book.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

It’s none of her goddam business. You don’t run to your wife for comfort when your brothers should be the ones.

NMMNG isn’t saying confess your deepest secrets. It’s saying express what you want. No apologies.

That said, I told my LTR. And guess what? I held fucking frame and DNGAF. Now she accepts it. She’ll pout about it on occasion but she’s a teenager at heart. As is your woman. Stop being a pussy and if you must, just tell her how it is.

Toughen up buddy. Do your work quietly. Don’t have a conversation with her because you don’t need her approval and it has nothing to do with her. Ffs.

[–]BCMan19570 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Definitely do NOT share your intent or plans with your wife. You need to assess how she responds organically to the new you over the course of several months. Although your wife probably complains a lot about you, she may fear the potential change in the balance of power in your relationship. She may work damn hard to sabotage your plans, keep you in your place and retain the status quo.

Only after I had obtained positive results for several months and she had responded positively to the new me did I share with my wife some of my NMMNG journey. She was open and understanding because she was enjoying the benefits.

[–]abudun790 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

A nice guy's problem is not keeping thoughs and wishes and desires to himself, the problem is that he makes covert contracts. A certain degree of abundance mentality is the opposite of covert contracts.

[–]Lazysaurus0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

On the official NMMNG forum it is pretty much unanimously agreed that the advice to share with SO is awful and should be ignored.

[–]RedPillCoach0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

There is a split of authority on this issue but even the NMMNG forum abjures this advice to 'talk.' It appear the split is being slowly resolved in favor of STFU.

[–]IRunYourRiver[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

That's definitely the impression I'm getting from the comments, lol. Where this comes from is the fact that I'm starting to order sidebar reading material (NMMNG, MMSLP, Art of Seduction so far) and I'm having these shipped to my office and developing a "stash" of masculine enhancement books in my filing cabinet. It takes me back to adolescent days of Hustler in the treehouse. Fine. I can do this. But, it does seem to go against the "integrated man" narrative in NMMNG.

[–]jcrptaRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Women are fundamentally manipulative.

They haven't got a lot of choice in the matter. Throughout history, they've had substantially fewer resources at their disposal. Manipulation is a way to get access to the resources they need.

The upshot is that telling your wife too much is fundamentally dangerous - you're explicitly telling her how best to manipulate you. Don't be too surprised if she takes full advantage.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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