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Need Some Help Analyzing Wife's Offer For Duty Sex

Reddit View
January 29, 2018

EDIT: Some comments have noted that I failed to give stats; I'm 39, 5'10", ~185 lbs.; not in great shape, could be leaner but not "fat"; just started lifting. I have always taken pride in dressing well. I'm not the best looking guy but I'm far from repulsive.

So I'm brand new here, have been dealing with a low-sex marriage basically since it began 20 years ago. I'd been hanging around DeadBedrooms for a few years but not really getting anywhere and I stumbled across MRP about a week ago; since then I have been obsessed with reading all I can. I've already read dozens of helpful posts on here, as well as MMSLP and NMMNG (both are life-changing); I'm now beginning WISNIFG.

Sorry if this ends up being a long post, but I'm really perplexed about what happened last night and I'm seeing everything with new eyes since beginning to read these MRP materials. I think the context of our relationship is important for good advice so I hope you'll bear with me.

I THINK I'm "Scenario 2", "Slippery Slope of Beta," but I've always had a strong Beta streak so I worry that I might actually be a Career Beta--though I fought for and won my wife over a strong rival when we were dating, and I had a lot more confidence and potential back then, so I think I may have had more Alpha than I realize(d).

I'm also struggling with a MAP because I think I might actually have the higher objective Sex Rank--my wife is pretty but has put on significant weight. I'm no physical specimen but I'm decent-looking, have a solid and high-paying career, and am a good father and provider.

Anyway, because of my time in DeadBedrooms and other things my wife has told me, I have basically become her little bitch-boy in a desperate attempt to get good sex from her (a concept I've only realized over the past week since finding MRP). She doesn't make outright demands and doesn't criticize me, but she manipulates me through claiming to be "stressed" or "tired" or "sore" or whatever so that I will do more around the house (I work a high-paying and demanding job; wife is a SAHM for our two young kids). I've been conditioned to know that if she's tired or stressed or whatever, there is ZERO chance for sex that day, so I have been trying to do everything in my power to make her more comfortable and remove those problems for her. I know now that this is highly Beta behavior and I think that she has lost respect for me because of it, so she isn't desiring me sexually.

I wonder if she CAN desire sexually or if she ever did desire me, though, because for our entire 20-year marriage we've had sex just 2-4 times per month, and it's always been lackluster. It's very rare that she is an enthusiastic participant in sex; she usually just starfishes and offers me duty sex because otherwise I will complain. She has never (literally NEVER) given me a blowjob and will not let me give her oral sex either (she has a lot of anxiety). I consider myself a good and attentive lover and I deeply care about her enjoyment of the activity; she just doesn't seem to care for herself.

For at least the past year or so, initiation of sex always begins with me making some physical advance--rubbing up against her, kissing her deeply, or most often, giving her a backrub after we go to bed. Many times, that's where it ends, she tells me she loves me and goes to sleep. Sometimes, though, she will validate this advance by asking if i want to "do stuff", which means that she will starfish (either laying on her back or stomach) until I'm finished. I've explained to her that I would love to involve more foreplay and other activities, but no changes ever happen.

This weekend really changed my perspective. Saturday was a big day for me with a high-stress project involving a great deal of money that took most of my day; I succeeded very well and I was proud to report my success to my family.

EDIT: Just to clarify, this was a personal, family financial project, not a work thing. Every dollar in my favor on this deal from Saturday went DIRECTLY to our family's account. This is particularly important for this story because my wife has been really focused on our buying a house lately (we currently rent and hate it), and I have told her my master plan for accruing a down payment, of which this project on Saturday was a large part. So this should have made her VERY happy. /EDIT

Then Sunday I decided to pamper my wife; I made lunch, watched the kids while she took a 3-hour nap in the afternoon (her daytime naps often are a prerequisite to sex); I helped prepare dinner, and I got both kids to sleep (each kid is a stressful and time-consuming game) so that she could sit on the couch and watch the stupid Grammy Awards. Then I took the trash out and cleaned up dinner.

Once the Grammys were over, my wife announced that she was taking a quick shower. I thought to myself that I had set the perfect stage for sex by giving her a nap and removing kid-based stress, plus I had scored an Alpha-style victory on Saturday. She had also been complaining that her back hurt, so I set the bedroom up for a real massage (with dimmed lights, relaxing music, etc.) and when she was out of the shower, instead of letting her get dressed, I barged in, grabbed her hand, and led her to the bedroom and told her to lay down. She was naked and I spent a good hour at least giving her a strong, therapeutic massage with real oil. I tried to throw in a sensual touch now and then as well, but mostly kept it focused on relaxing her muscles.

When she flipped over I finished the fronts of her legs, then moved to her breasts (again mixing real massage with sensuality), and then to her V. I rubbed it for a while but wasn't really getting any response from her at all; she never opened her legs, or reached out to touch me, or even gave any vocal encouragement. I tried to kiss her and she kissed back but reluctantly.

Then it hit me, clear as day: my wife is not attracted to me sexually. She has no desire at all to engage in sex with me. It was so clear that it made me emotional and dizzy. I asked if she wanted more massaging anywhere else, she said no; I cleaned up the oil on her, told her to get up when she was ready, and headed to use the bathroom. On my way out, she said, "Do you want to do stuff"? When I returned she was still laying there naked, and said "You didn't answer my question--do you want to do stuff?" But she was laying there motionless, and made no affirmative showing that she wanted sex. I felt strongly that she felt that I had made this a covert contract (something I do a lot) where I had it in my head that if I massaged her, I'd get sex, and she was offering starfish/duty sex to avoid a later confrontation about this "breach" of covert contract. I was still so emotional from realizing so clearly her lack of desire, and from seeing EVERYTHING so clearly now, that I couldn't bring myself to have sex. I told her that it was okay and she could get dressed, and I'm sure I saw relief on her face when I did not accept her "offer."

So now I come to you, o gurus of MRP, to ask how I should have handled the situation when it happened. Aside from my very Beta behavior during the earlier day, was leading her to the massage an Alpha or Beta move? Should I have been more aggressive during the massage in suggesting sex (though I was not very subtle about it)? Should I have just climbed on top of her at the end of the massage, even when she wasn't responding? Should I have accepted her offer to "do stuff" even though I could, for the first time, clearly see the dynamic between us? Did I screw up by not just having sex with her even when I knew she didn't want it?

Any advice, specific or general, would be really helpful. I've just been replaying the events in my head all morning and I cannot figure out what the "right" way to handle it would have been.

Post Information
Title Need Some Help Analyzing Wife's Offer For Duty Sex
Author Reject444
Upvotes 11
Comments 54
Date 29 January 2018 07:44 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Original Link
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Red Pill terms found in post:
MAPWISNIFGalphabetaproviderliftgamecovert contractNMMNG

[–]cholomiteMod / BP Downvote Magnet30 points31 points  (0 children) | Copy

Your frame sucks, and your personality sounds boring and lame.

You're at square one, and it seems like you have a decent grasp on the materials and the laws of attraction, so just keep reading and don't dwell in this event for too long.

My advice is to immediately stop giving so many fucks about your wife, she sure as shit doesn't give a fuck about you. Right now, you are living as if your wife is the prize, but it needs to be the other way around. Women fuck prizes, they don't like to get fucked by losers. Start acting like a prize, which includes being cool and acting like all successes are natural and normal. I don't give a shit if you've just negotiated peace in the middle East, when you get home, you act like it's just another day and your achievements come as natural as breathing. I would have told my girl to get in the shower while I get the candles and oil out, then when she gets out, tell her you're ready for your massage. Start putting yourself first from now on. Any money you've been saving to spend on her, take it and spend it on yourself instead. Buy some new clothes, some snacks for you, start acting like the king of your castle, not just the massage and oil boy, you're one rank above "house jester", get your shit together and have a little self respect.

Be selfish, don't give a fuck and make yourself the #1 most important person in your life.

[–]chachaChad15 points16 points  (3 children) | Copy

hanging around DeadBedrooms

Get the fuck off there. That places only reinforces the notion that everything is her fault which it's absolutely not. It's all your fault. The sooner you realize that and get to work on the side bar, the better your life will be. Note I did not say your marriage will improve. MRP saves the man, not the marriage. As hard as it is to hear, she may not be salvageable.

[–]bogeyd6Mod / Red Militia9 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy

Not sure how it’s all his fault is a default idea around here. You know some people are just shitty people. Plenty of stories around about how it never made a difference and then the guy is up to his ass in 8’s +.

[–]dcapt464 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

Not sure how it’s all his fault is a default idea around here.

I am guessing that "Fault" is the wrong concept here. I think what he means is instead of blaming her and having a pity party (as they do in DB) fix yourself and maybe she will come along or maybe - as you point out - he will improve and move on with his life with someone else.

[–]chachaChad5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yes, that’s what I meant. I’m on a big personal responsibility kick. If my life sucks it’s up to me to figure out why and fix it.

[–]2ndalRed Beret9 points10 points  (5 children) | Copy

This is the most textbook case I've read on here in a long time.

Look at it this way: you've actually made a decent amount of early progress to be as self-aware as you are. That's half the battle, and a lot of guys never make it out of there, never understand that things can be better. But don't get complacent. There's a shit ton 'o work ahead.

The good news is, everything in this sub is literally designed and developed to help men in the exact situation as you. As you dig into the requisite books and other materials, you may find yourself thinking, eh, this isn't her, this isn't me, I don't need to do this, I can skip that -- DON'T. Again, you are in a fucking textbook situation, and this strategy was developed for men exactly like you. Dig in, take the advice, and run with it.

[–]Reject444[S] 4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy

I'd be interested to know what, exactly, makes this such a textbook case--could you elaborate more, please? I'm not disagreeing with you and I can see some of it for myself but I'm sure there is stuff I'm missing, so a summary of your thoughts as to HOW this is so "textbook" might be really helpful for me in seeing more of the big picture.

[–]2ndalRed Beret16 points17 points  (2 children) | Copy

  • Career beta
  • Think you have some alpha aspects when you don't
  • Think you/your situation is different than others
  • Negotiating for sex/desire
  • Wife always has an excuse
  • Anything beyond occasional starfish is off the table
  • Think your achievements get your wife's panties wet
  • Finally come to the harsh realization that your entire relationship has been a lie

[–]Reject444[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks for the added detail. This is helpful.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Wife is not sexually attracted to him and never has been

[–]weakandsensitive1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Maybe read a textbook and figure it out yourself.

[–]DanceMonkeeDanceRed Beret7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

I disagree with some on here. If she won't give you the sex you want, go lift until someone will give you the sex you want. Not fucking her was the only thing you did right all weekend.

Next time you have a big win at work, treat yourself to a big steak dinner. "I'm celebrating tonight. Be ready to leave at 7." If she's not ready, go by yourself. What value is she adding to your life?

[–]mrpthrowa13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm just so sorry you have to go through all that for some pity sex.

2 months ago, I met a girl on a trail in a snowy mountain - work trip, but i had time for this - We talked a bit, I think it was a total of 20 sentences, initiated some kino, she kept holding me from falling off, kinda of funny, i didn't have good snow/ice gear.

Within 2 hours I was balls deep in her in a shed, finished in her mouth holding her hair in freezing temperatures.

The real turning point? when we got to the shed I took off my coat to reveal a good physique in the thermals. She jumped on me right there.

When we were done, she then asked me what I'm doing the next 2 days, I told her my flight is the next day, she said thanks, we kissed good byes, gave her an extra long hug and that was that.

I didn't get her number. She was from another continent. I only know her first name, she only knows my first name.

When a girl is receptive to your dick, she'll do anything.

You did the right thing. You're at the sad stage. Work through the dread levels. Long journey you have.

[–]nastynickdrRed Beret6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

I'm no physical specimen but I'm decent-looking, have a solid and high-paying career, and am a good father and provider.

Beta qualities wont make her want to fuck you.

Then it hit me, clear as day: my wife is not attracted to me sexually.

Realizing this and that going through all her hoops and giving her back rubs wont make her want to fuck you is the first step. Now you need to step out of her frame and build your own.

The advice to you is pretty standard: get out of her frame and start doing what you would do if you were single. Lift, eat healthy, lose fat/gain muscle. Read the sidebar and internalize it (it takes time). Get outside hobbies, make new friends, go grab a beer with your buddies a couple nights a week. No more mr nice guy, when I say no I feel guilty and married man sex life primer are the basics. Set goals and objectives and pursue them (read the MAP book). Then you set a timeline for things to turn around, like if in X months my wife isnt fucking me enthusiastically at least twice a week, or whatever is the metric that you set, and if its still not happening, its time to walk and get the life and sex that you want elsewhere. Your wife is not obligated to fuck you, but you are not obligated to have once a month starfish sex for the rest of your life. Does she really adds value to your life? SAHM that wont keep a house clean and cook?

I really dont know how some guys can have such low self worth to actually spend 20 fucking years in a commited relationship to someone who is not attracted to you, begging for sex, doing massages, "putting the dishes the right way" to "win" starfish sex, if anything. No blowjobs, no desire, no nothing. Really, even when I was a spineless deadbeat beta I wouldnt do that.

[–]mrpthrowa7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

I really dont know how some guys can have so low self worth to actually spend 20 fucking years in a commited relationship to someone who is not attracted to you, begging for sex, doing massages, "putting the dishes the right way" to "win" starfish sex, if anything. No blowjobs, no desire, no nothing. Really, even when I was a spineless deadbeat beta I wouldnt do that.

Most often it is boys raised by narcissistic single mothers (with a possibly present-absent father). The mother can never be pleased. She'll always be manipulating the child. It leads to a lifetime of behaving like this.

Then they go to kinder garden, then to primary school, and so forth, and it's all the fucking same - the person in authority over them is some woman who doesn't know how to raise a man. By the time they are an adult, that's all they ever had an interaction with.

[–]crimson_chris2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

MRP will teach him that one of the worst things a woman can call you is a "provider".

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

PUA is never going to help you get 'that' women, it only helps you get 'more' women.

Replace PUA for RP, and the only difference is the wife gets first crack. IT's not about her

Say it again with me


[–]BobbyPeru5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

been hanging around DeadBedrooms for a few years but not really getting anywhere

If I had a dollar for every time I read this

I worry that I might actually be a Career Beta-

If you worry, then you are - The good news is now you can do something about it. But, it will be a lot of time and effort.

I was able to skim through your long post, and I saw you're doing chore play for sex. Stop that

Read the sidebar


Quit questioning things you haven't tried. Guys here who did the work have transformed their lives. Get off Deadbedrooms.

[–]ParadoxThatDrivesUs4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy

Let's go all the way back to the basics: Why are you with this person? She's fat, old, boring in bed, does not have a job yet can't even cope with home responsibilities, is not attracted to you, and forces you to jump through hoops for lousy sex.

I would say knock her off that pedestal, but it's hard to even understand why you've got her up there in the first place.

Without you, her prospects are dim and getting dimmer by the day. For fucks sake, stop chasing her and pull yourself together.

[–]Reject444[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Why am I with her? She's a fantastic mom to our kids, she's still fun to hang out with (when it's not about sex), we have 20+ years of shared life and history, I love her, and I'm still attracted to her. If she suddenly started offering blowjobs and enthusiastic sex a few times a week, I would be very happy and would really have no other complaints.

[–]crimson_chris4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

You still have oneitis and wife goggles. MRP will make you a better man. But, it does not work if you are doing it to "impress" your wife.

I disagree with some guys here. I have turned down sex from my wife when the effort was not there. The key is to try to not make her feel bad about it. You don't want a negative association with you and sex.

[–]Reject444[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

"You still have oneitis and wife goggles."

I acknowledge that and it's definitely one of the things I need to work on. I do feel like she adds value to my life, but I also realize (only as a rational concept, not yet as an emotional one) that she is not the ONLY woman who could provide that same value (or more).

"The key is to try to not make her feel bad about it. You don't want a negative association with you and sex."

This makes a lot of sense to me. In the past, on the few occasions that I have not accepted her offers, I have done so in a passive-aggressive way, like I was trying to use it as a weapon or to start a discussion about how unhappy I am with our sex life. Last night I was stunned by my realizations but when I turned her down I did it because I wanted to; I did it for ME this time, not because I was trying to extract some behavior from HER. As a result, there was no resentment on my end and I assume no bad feelings from her.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

You're at ground zero.

You have a long road. Here's a roadmap...

I posted the whole thing in response to a recent thread, but below is the relevant to you parts.

Welcome. Get to work.

You have to put yourself first. Regardless of whether you're done and just can't deal at all anymore, or whether you'll calm the fuck down enough to realize that you caused all of this. You. This is your fucking mess, your victim puke. Everything you did got you to the very place you are right now. If you don't like the place, you must change.

Stop treating her like an equal. She's a 4 year old calling you a poopyhead. Why would your response to that be anything other than laughter?

Every time you get butthurt, start arguing, even entertain her silly notions, you lose another corner of your man card.

You need frame.

She needs Dread (see below)

You don't deserve respect, you earn it.

If your woman is shit it's because the shape of your container is a toilet.

Is there a chance you picked a genetically born fucking bitch? Sure. But you either allowed that to continue, neglected training her to be your slut, or your womanpicking equipment was malfunctioning.

So. Get it in your head that you have a lot of work to do on yourself. Months worth. Whether the marriage survives is a moot point. Fix yourself. That's why people say the stay plan is the go plan.

Even without the wife you'd only be a lost little beta boy out all alone in the big bad world. You need TIME to change yourself into the guy women want to fuck. When you've achieved that, you really won't care if your wife is part of that group. Take a long look at yourself. Would you fuck you? Are you attractive in any way?

Step 1 - Drop the ego. Sit down, shut up, read. Start putting things together. Stop making everything about "I'm right". Nothing is right in your life right now. You're on the Titanic, rearranging the deck chairs to maximize the feng in your shui. Look big picture. Your ego got you here. Kill it. There are many wise men here who have gone through exactly what you are, but came out the other side as men, therefore the lessons are seen as harsh by beginners because if you prove yourself unworthy of help because your big ego gets in the way, the help goes away. Faggot.

Step 2 - STFU. Shut the fuck up. This does not mean stop talking to your wife. It means don't talk about your problems, don't talk about what you're going to do, don't talk about her feelings, don't be bullied into verbal intercourse. Be happy, intitiate, have fun, but don't pull her into your shit and don't allow her to pull you into her babbling. Cut the chatter. Loose lips sink ships. Women are master verbal manipulators, trained from birth. You'll lose every argument everytime. So don't play. Yet. And for fuck sake don't talk about Fight Club.

Step 3 - Find out what kind of drunk captain you are, and read the whole page. If you have some spare time.... all of jacktenofhearts lengthy posts are pure brilliance. Read them all.

Step 4 - Virtually every guy goes zero to hero at hyperspeed when they first get here. Slow your pace. If you change things too much too quick you undo all the progress you've made up to that point. It take a long time for others to see and believe changes in you, almost like they were on a 1000 foot rope

Step 5 - Read about Dread This is your roadmap and speed limit.

Step 6 - Lift. You're probably a skinnyfat/fat fuck. This does three things - makes you look and feel better, gives you a goal, and gets you the fuck out of the house. Actually, way more than three things.

Step 7 - Stop posting about your wife. Nobody gives a shit about her. Post about you. A lot of men have good accountability and visible progress over in marriedredpill's weekly OWN YOUR SHIT posts. Start contributing. As you write we'll see issues you don't, as you read, you'll see issues both in others' journeys and then in your own. Make a MAP.

Step 8 - Get your shit in order. Proceed as if divorce day is tomorrow. Seriously do the work, get the paperwork. If you do not do this you are either stupid because this is a big deal, or bluffing. Nothing says you have to serve or move forward, but start getting your ducks in a row. Financials in order? Bank accounts separated? Child care agreements drawn up? She thinks you're a bag of shit. Shit has no teeth. You prove this to her if your threats are off the cuff and empty. Acta non verba.

Step 9 - Read. Everything you can. Sidebar, posts, OYS, especially the books. Here is an awesome beginners guide/synopsis of the sidebar. Think about this shit. Reading is easy, internalizing the concepts is the hard part. The redpill is a time release capsule, don't try to crush it up and snort it.

Step 10 - (fuck, 10 already?) You are a man. The world will try to twist you to accomplish their goals instead of your own. Recognize this, do the things that YOU want to do.

Welcome. There's so much more, but the above will keep you busy for a while.

Finally, the beddeadrooms to MRP jump is a big one. They fix feelings, we fix problems. Ponder that.

[–]FoxShitNasty833 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Dont bother with DeadBedrooms, stick here wont be long before you look back at db and want to puke in your tea. I know, i was there myself a few months back.

All i can say is be patient this stuff takes time. As another comment'er said your in a better place than most, at least the wife is letting you stick your dick in her.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

"right" way to handle it would have been

"The past is already written, the ink is dry."

The only thing that matter now, is what is the correct way forward to fix it so it doesn't happen again. You do that by starting to lift, get your bf% correct and reading the sidebar. So get to work.

[–]The_LitzRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Some parts made me want to puke, but I was in a very similar situation as you. Same false believes, choreplay, covert contracts, name it, I tried.

Take heart, it gets better. My wife now initiates about 25% of the time we have sex. Quickies, morning sex, late night marathon sex.

This is what awaits you. You are one week in. The key is to take it easy and not over analyse every little encounter.

You are big on covert contracts, but at least you see it now. You have a lot of work ahead of you.

Do not, do not go Rambo on her now.....

[–]rocknrollchuck5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy

Your wife is not attracted to you - but you know that already. She is at least willing to provide duty sex, which is more than many others here get.

I noticed you gave no stats - age, height, weight, body fat %. You also did not indicate whether or not you lift heavy weights or not. My guess is that you are fat (because SHE is fat, and women fill the shape of their container, which is YOU), and that you do not lift weights. So let's start there.

[–]Alpha_Engineer990 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

2-4 times per month and he is on dead bedrooms? Doing pretty good.

[–]Reject444[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Well, it's been more the 2/month than the 4/month, but really my dissatisfaction has been based on quality more than quantity. As I said, it's always been starfish PIV and nothing else, which has really frustrated me, even though I do know there are others out there getting even less. Even when we have sex it hasn't been fulfilling to me, and I was never able to fully understand what was "missing" until it all became clear last night that, despite what she SAYS (she loves me, I'm handsome, she's attracted to me, blah blah blah), there's no real desire there from her. I was hanging around DB mostly to find out how to increase her DESIRE for sex (and me), not how often she agrees to lay there waiting for it to be over. Turns out I was just looking in the wrong subreddit.

[–]weakandsensitive2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

What's her incentive to do more? Pretty sure there isn't any.

[–]SeamusAwl0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

the 4/month

I now cringe at anything below twice a week. And I have had it worse than you (just not for 20 years). I would get reluctant duty sex/oral once a quarter.

despite what she SAYS

Always pay attention to what she does, not what she says. They will say anything to keep you as you are. Even to their own detriment (i.e. they will try and keep you beta even if they want you to be their alpha).

find out how to increase her DESIRE for sex

Her desire for sex is just fine. If you have been reading Deadbedrooms, then you know how many HLM find out that their LL wives go all slutty (or worse, had ongoing active affairs) after they left them.

Turns out I was just looking in the wrong subreddit.

And you are looking at the wrong solution. The only thing you have power to change in this world is yourself and it is time for you to do things for yourself. YOU are saving because YOU want to buy the house that YOU want. She doesn't provide nothing. She is a SAHM. In fact, any chores she does in your home is next to worthless value because you are fully capable of doing them yourself. Her only real value is the quality and quantity of sex you get from her.

[–]rocknrollchuck1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Well, everybody has their own definition of a "dead" bedroom I guess.

[–]Reject444[S] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy

Thanks for all comments so far. Several of you have said that I should NEVER turn down her offer of sex--but does that still hold true when I know she's not really into it and that her offer is made grudgingly to avoid conflict and only AS A DIRECT RESULT OF MY PAST BETA BEHAVIORS? Is accepting under those circumstances somehow reinforcing that prior behavior that I want to change?

[–]yes_we_can_t2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

No. A better default is always do what you want. Do YOU want to have starfish sex?

If yes, do it and fuck her hard for your pleasure, she's only doing it to make you happy anyway. If you don't want to, don't do it.

Is accepting under those circumstances somehow reinforcing that prior behavior that I want to change?

Stop trying to change her. Only focus on becoming an attractive man for your woman.

You are the cause of her lackluster sex and "anxiety".

I used to be like you, so caring and so attentive. Unfortunately, my girlfriends somehow hated giving blowjobs even though they'd been doing it willingly with other guys who treated them like shit. A few months after my "love of my life" broke up with me, she was distraught because she "needed to learn how to share [new guy] with other women". He was in fact fucking another girl in our old apartment at that very moment.

That was the moment I realized it was me, not her. Since then I have changed completely. New me is getting BJs daily, my ex-plate told me she cried when she had sex with a different guy, because "he was not me". My new woman fawns over me and tells me she's so happy with me all the time, and I'm not even trying at all. It's so counter-intuitive I wouldn't believe it if I didn't live it.

[–]wildnight98MRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

So, you can now give yourself permission to dispense with all those attempts at foreplay or making her climax. She's not into it anyway. Try this next time, have sex with the starfish, climax as fast as you can, and as soon as you're done hop up, kiss her quickly, and jump in the shower, leaving her on the bed. You will feel a lot better about it (for now).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yes, never turn her down. You are man. You will take it/her/sex when you want, not when she wants. You have needs, alpha man always fucks when offered (unless you are repulsed, but your seed wants to live). If she is starfish, fuck her from behind so you don't have to look at her disappointed face and just go to town.

Tomorrow, though, you need to become a new person. Stop doing shit for her. Don't be an ass, but start living for you. Don't give in when she starts to "ask" for a massage or other favors. In your mind, and hers, you have built numerous covert contracts.

Lift, Read the Sidebar... especially the Book of Pook and the 16 commandments... YOU ARE TO BE FUN in all of your interactions with her. Make yourself laugh, tease a bit. In these good moments you up your touch and try to get laid. But always expect a "no" so that you don't get butthurt.

This is a long process, but you (and maybe your marriage) will become better.

[–]rocknrollchuck0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

It is reinforcing that you are a sexual man that wants sex with his wife. It doesn't matter why the offer was made - at least not right now. Do you want sex? Then take advantage of the opportunity. There are others here who would KILL for what you're getting.

Here's something to think about: is it really about the sexual satisfaction / getting off? Or is the

I know she's not really into it and that her offer is made grudgingly to avoid conflict and only AS A DIRECT RESULT OF MY PAST BETA BEHAVIORS

more about feeling the validation of being wanted? Only you can answer that.

[–]nonnimooseWoman, something something dark side0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It is reinforcing that you are a sexual man that wants sex with his wife.

OP should note that his actual behavior reinforced the opposite!

If my husband gave me a one hour full body oil massage (I can only imagine this, it has never happened) and not only did I not once feel his hard-on pressing against me but when it was over he acted completely uninterested in my overtures, lame though they might be, I would think he either has no sexual desires at all or is completely repulsed by me or both.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Let me ask you this question. Do you want to condition your wife to be rejected and that sex is bad when she initiates?

[–]mrpthrowa1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

she hasn't initiated.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Stopped halfway. You didn't read NMMNG at all. Go back and read it again.

[–]hystericalbonding3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Breaking old habits is a reasonable thing, especially the covert contracts. Don't be such a thirsty beta that you obsess about every missed opportunity. Sex is plentiful for attractive men.

Read the Book of Pook along with WISNIFG. Move on to some PUA material so you don't have to rely only on verbal cues that women are interested.

I didn't hear anything about your lifting routine and what kind of health issues and meds might be messing with both of you. Use the Navy calculator to get a rough idea of body fat percentage.

[–]dcapt462 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

As already noted she does not find you attractive. What you think your relative SMV is does not matter to her. Why? Because you have shown her that for 20 you will be her beta bitch and beg for sex even if you are slightly better looking. So to her your SMV difference is ZERO. The only way to change this is through dread. Lift and dress better than you do now and be social and fun with other women around her.

At least she is still providing duty sex. Never turn down sex. Her saying "Do you want to do stuff" might be as close to initiating as she can get. While refusing her that time because you recognized it was a covert contract might confuse her for a short time. Her hamster will spin and unless you give her reason to think otherwise eventually she will start to think "Good now he isn't going to guilt me into sex anymore so I can stop offering"

To your questions:

1) was leading her to the massage an Alpha or Beta move? --> All day was crazy bitch beta. Leading her to the massage was 5% Alpha. 1 hour massage expecting sex was 95% beta.

2) Should I have been more aggressive during the massage in suggesting sex (though I was not very subtle about it)? -->Holy crap you were subtle. Massaging her erogenous zones in hope she gets warmed up is again covert contract and subtle. More aggressive should have looked like "Pick her up and tease her about "Walking around naked has made me so hard I'm going to fuck you" Carry her to the bed and proceed to kiss/touch/climb on.

3) Should I have accepted her offer to "do stuff" even though I could, for the first time, clearly see the dynamic between us? Did I screw up by not just having sex with her even when I knew she didn't want it? --> You recognize her initiation - never turn sex down unless you have a really good reason(really sick or something).

Advice. Lift, get big. Do you need to lose weight? Do that too. Read and absorb the sidebar then come back here in some months. You won't unfuck this overnight so don't crawl back for help next time you can't figure out how you screwed up with her because you will - for a while.

But you are in the right place and it will get better. Do the work.

[–]Neoduder1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

The bull doesn't stop fucking the cow because the cow's not into it.

[–]DanceMonkeeDanceRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

If you're ok with an unsatisfying fuck, well, you do you. I understand that sometimes you just need a cock socket, but that's no way to live.

[–]mrpthrowa0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

EDIT: Just to clarify, this was a personal, family financial project, not a work thing. Every dollar in my favor on this deal from Saturday went DIRECTLY to our family's account. This is particularly important for this story because my wife has been really focused on our buying a house lately (we currently rent and hate it), and I have told her my master plan for accruing a down payment, of which this project on Saturday was a large part. So this should have made her VERY happy. /EDIT

this is just so sad. you need more reading dude.

[–]dcapt460 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is just another covert contract. Look at meeee mommy. I did good. Do you have some more starfish for me!

You do that shit (making money, moving into a better house etc) because you are a man and you take charge of these things. Not to make her VERY happy.

[–]Big_Daddy_PDX0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, I stopped reading early on. If your wife isn’t physically fucking attractive at her age, she is just fat. Congratulations on realizing that you want to have arc more than twice a year, but you’ve got 20yrs into a contract with that arrangement. I recommend not being surprised that nothing changes - - so don’t be surprised, but don’t fail to learn. I’d plan for a divorce by visiting w/ an attorney today so you can educate yourself now and start cleaning up your situation in advance of pulling the trigger. Mainly because your wife might be able to turn into a firecracker in the sack, but not with you since you’ve spent 2hrs being a boring friend and not a liver that takes what he wants. When she’s asking if you want to do stuff, I recommend saying YES and fucking her like you want. Start initiating earlier in the day; like breakfast. And don’t wait until the end of the night to start. And don’t have sex in the bedroom - because the guy she wants to have sex with would screw her on the couch.

So, congrats on the realization, but she might not be the one that you end up with. I encourage you to explore and accept all potential outcomes here.

[–]RPJMRP0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Holy fucking shit. This is so opposite of MRP, at first I thought it was a decent troll. You're entire post was exhausting. The list of shit you did with the covert contract of sex to come from an unattractive, unappreciative woman was difficult to stomach.

Stop whatever you're doing, and start the sidebar. If you think you started it, you haven't. Go back and do it again. Anything you try to do right now you will fuck up.

Lift and read for 6 months. Focus on yourself. Your wife will come around. Or she won't, really doesn't matter either way.

[–]maxofreddit0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Read through most of the comments and there is some really good stuff here... allow me to throw in my $.02

Very first thing, get in the gym.

There are no exceptions to this rule. If you want the "easy" route (edit - easy as in, you don't have to think about any programming, you show up and they teach and coach you was to do), and don't want to think about it, join a local CrossFit gym. Many people here favor lifting and focusing on strength, and if that's your thing, great. But CrossFit will teach you resilience you never knew you had. Also, when you can do 100 burpees in under 5 minutes, your body fat will be in check. There's no other way.

Get familiar with STFU (shut the fuck up), and AA (agree and amplify).

As you make progress and start focusing on YOU more, your wife is inevitably going to throw out a series of "things are different," "You're changing," and so on. Depending on your personality, and the situation, you want to say NOTHING (STFU) or make a joke that's ridiculous, "I know things are changing, the Muppet convention is coming up and I want to be ready." I tend to do the latter, since I'm built a little more that way, and I've generally found if a woman's laughing, she's not bitching.

Do NOT mention, declare, or announce that you're "Making changes," "Improving yourself," or any other horse-shit. You'll be asking her hamster to say, "Oh yeah?!" and make your job even harder. Keep it to yourself. Do NOT explain what you're doing. Every word you say about it gives her a chance to debate you about it, and lessons the impact of what you're doing. Women talk, men do. Let your actions speak. This is KEY.

I'm very similar to you, and have the "gift of gab." Learning STFU was one of the most powerful tools I learned, followed quickly by AA.

I suspect that a you're going to see some completely unexpected improvements rather quickly, with the real work coming from consistency over time.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I have a question:

Why did you get married?

What about this woman made you think you couldn’t do better?

When did you meet / how old?

Any “serious” girlfriends before this?

This sounds awful and you’re trapped because kids...

[–]crimson_chris-3 points-2 points  (2 children) | Copy

This whole post is horrible. You first lost me at "I won her over a rival" and then at "attentive lover".

Take some time to familiarize yourself with this sub before you post a sack of shit like this.

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Technically - this is exactly what askMRP is for. There's no expectation that this subreddit the creme de la creme.

[–]crimson_chris0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I was hangry when I wrote that. And the post was extra full of vomit and shit.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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