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[FR] Six months of work and DL4 issues

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January 1, 2018
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[FR] Six months of work and DL4 issues

I realized this past June I was losing the power dynamic in my 3 year marriage. I had become soft, complacent, and boring. Wife was getting attention from Chads at work. She was beginning to act disrespectful towards me. I Googled "power in marriage" and found MRP. Everything here immediately clicked and I went to work. I've read the sidebar, some of it twice. Have not missed a trip to the Iron Temple due to laziness. I've done over 18,000 push ups since reading TFA's 31 Days to Masculinity. I am actively working on my MAP.

 

I went too fast too early and scared the cat in a big way. Had to pull back a time or two to provide enough Comfort so she could feel trusting toward me. For a brief time I was jealous as fuck but managed it and let the past go (for the most part - I'm still trying to kill my ego protection). Also about 60 days ago I realized that I wasn't doing the work soley for me. I had a covert contract lurking that said if I got my shit together she would want to fuck me more; because of that I also didn't have real OI.

 

The last couple of months I've come a long way, correcting those psychological aspects. I've found a decent balance between gaming her & having fun with drive-bys, and reducing the amount of touchy feely & sexual neediness toward her. My frame is coming together, although it's made of inferior materials at this point. One of the things I realized I wanted was connection with her at bedtime and during the night. Yes of course I'd love to fuck her instead, but baby steps. So I changed out from a split king bed that seemed like she was a mile away to a queen. Now when she comes to bed she faces toward me to talk instead of facing away and finger fucking her phone. I fall asleep most nights with "two points of contact" on her (inside joke) as opposed to a mile wide gulf of simmering hostility between us.

 

Wife is showing very nice improvements. She is deferential toward me, fun to be around, and is taking care of the house like never before. For example, she recently created a chore list, framed it and hung it along with a family month planner, and a dinner menu planner. She is doing the chores on a daily basis, planning meals and ingredients a week ahead. She is actually sticking with it and being consistent. She seeks my approval now - I've told her that I'm pleased with her initiative, and that she's doing a great job.

 

In the last few weeks wife says to me that she likes my improving body and that she's attracted to me (see my recent OYS posts). Last night in bed she mentioned my shoulders, that they were getting nicely defined. She's been dressing better, paying attention to her carb intake, and taking her vitamin supplements. Feels like the 1000 foot rope is beginning to tighten.

 

This brings me to DL4 and recent events. I just began the process of incorporating BPP's method of reducing my time and attention, and possibly affection and presence, for sexual denials on Dec 15th; I wanted to proceed slowly here. Saturday evening rolls around and it had been 5 days since the last sex, duty sex that I actually walked away from. Before that it was 10 days, duty sex then too. The quantity and quality are definitely lacking. Shark week was any day now (thanks FLO app), I didn't want to wait 4 or 5 more days. I initiated on the couch and she denied me saying "it's only been a few days".

 

I might've hung around a bit longer on the couch but instead got up right away and withdrew to another room for an hour or so until bedtime. I kissed her on the forehead and rolled over to sleep. I was fed up with the frequent denials and I showed it more than I have in the past two months. Next day (yesterday) I have to be away for most of the day, planning to leave the house at 9:30 am. She's wakes up and isn't friendly but follows through on her promise from the evening before to make breakfast. My scoreboard is reset every day so I'm friendly and easygoing and break her out of her hard shell and we have a pleasant morning. Just before I leave she brings the issue of last night and sex out into the open so I tell her: "I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed that you don't want to have sex with me." (this is almost verbatim from BPP's book)

 

I gave her a brotherly kiss then left the house and for most of the day she blew up my phone, her hamster was working hard. I ignored the texts and did not reply at all. I got home about 3 pm. By then the hamster was worn out and she was respectful and demure. We had a nice evening together at home. At bedtime in the bed she is softly crying tears and says "I hope you want me and nobody else; I'm worried that I won't be the girl for you. I'm afraid you'll want someone else." I reassured her, wiped her tears away for a few minutes, kissed her on the forehead and we fell asleep.

 

I'm not in any rush to push the issue, I'm trying to play the long game. But this morning she brings it up again. That she does all these things (keeping a nice house, cooking, loving my children, keeping things I like on hand, washing and folding my clothes, etc.) to show me how much she loves me - "Why can't that be enough for you?" she asks. She's partially right, in all those ways she's a very good wife now.

 

I said to her "My marriage has three parts. You're a good friend, and a good helper. I also need my wife to be my lover."

 

She left for work and immediately started texting me. Here are some of the things she's said, I'm hoping that y'all can help chart my next course of action:

  • "I will never meet your expectations. That's why I know I'm not the girl for you. I'm not the woman you want."

  • "Everything I do to show my love, appreciation, and devotion is not what you want."

  • "I'm not what you want anymore. You're trying to change me into whatever it is you are now... to whatever it is you want now... and I just don't speak that language."

  • I know I'm not the one you want anymore. I know it in my bones. And it sucks so bad."

  • It sucks the one person that's enough for me doesn't want who I am anymore."

  • "I was never enough for my mom... most of my friends... all of my past boyfriends. Now you change and decide I am not enough."


Post Information
Title [FR] Six months of work and DL4 issues
Author Nec_sorte_Nec_fato
Upvotes 16
Comments 63
Date 01 January 2018 04:57 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/205002
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/7ng3px/fr_six_months_of_work_and_dl4_issues/
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Comments

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (24 children) | Copy

it's only been a few days

Is this your hard no? Like...that's it? A few words and you're defeated? It's annoying when she throws out these retarded last minute resistances. I gotta blow through a handful almost every time like clockwork. "It's cold in X room. Don't you have to go? Not tonight. I just worked out." Actions, not words. Act like you didn't even hear her saying these or AA/AM them and push on. You'll find there's nothing behind these words. They're just that, words. And her fucking you in about 30 seconds is the actions. At some point, and I hope to begin working on this soon as well, you might get a to a spot where you can start changing that behavior too. Answering one with a light but meaningful "That's not attractive, stop". But until then blow through that shit.

I reassured her

How did you do this? What did you say?

"Why can't that be enough for you?"

Do you see the blame shift here? Rather than answering why, instead of doing nothing more than getting naked and getting fucked by you, which is also highly pleasurable for her (physically, at least), why instead she chooses to withhold the only thing that makes her different from any other normal functioning human female out there (exclusively fucking you regularly). We know why, hypergamy. But she doesn't know it actually exists, and would deny it anyway if she knew. No instead she wonders why you in your must-be flawed thinking can't settle for being a providing beta bitch for her. "Why can't you just provide a house, money, moral and emotional support, raise my kids, and allow me to do what I want? Why do I have to actually show affection for you? The nerve. I am kind enough to chop your balls off but leave you alive and you actually want more than that. For shame. How terrible a person you are."

You should be angry at that question. Angry because not only are you on the defensive for having a goal of a worthwhile relationship, but she had the nerve to ask it of you. That's some massive cognitive dissonance right there. She doesn't even know how much of a selfish bitch she's being by asking why she can't just have it all and give the bare minimum a fucking roommate would provide back. And she thinks she's actually being kind!

 

Angry yet? I hope so. Because then when you look at all those text messages you can really see what this is. And it's just another attempt at manipulation. "Oh woe is me oh woe is me, everyone has judged me to be not enough. Why can't everyone in the world simply admit I'm enough...then I wouldn't have to work harder to be more." If the shit stinks everywhere you go woman, check your shoe. For the love of god do not respond to this bait. You're on your mission. She can come along if she wants. You have absolutely no need to convince her to come along. If she want's easy, find a beta bitch, because you aren't one anymore. That ball is in her court though. She's looking for someone to bend here and you are so focused on your mission you don't even need to consider bending for her.

Word of warning. I fully expect her to keep pestering you for some kind of "answer" on what your plan is. Are you leaving? Are you staying? "Where are we going? Are we there yet?" But I don't even think she's in the right mindset right now to receive a vision from you, because she's still thinking about her her her and how she can make it easy. Any vision you have she'll simply try to pick apart and explain why it's not worth it. Do your thing. Also expect her to start attempting to bring in this for thats "OK I'll fuck you more but you have to..." "Sorry babe, I don't negotiate with terrorists". When all else fails, she sounds like the type to fucking blow up. Prepare for that.

[–]Sapphire_Jizz4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

This OP, this.

She's playing the fuck out of you and she probably isn't even aware that she's doing it... it's not a totally conscious thing on her part. It's a combination of the patterns that have developed over the course of your relationship, the fact that you've been an unattractive beta fuck and how she's manipulated your non-existent frame, and last but not least her inherent female solipsism absolving her of blame and responsibility ("everyone's wrong, it can't be me, I'm such an angel, look at everything I do and no one wants me...")!

You have to realize that you're still in her frame to an extent and she's manipulating you through and through. As Gargantua has said, focus on your mission, don't take the manipulation bait... we all know how hard it can be to resist sometimes.

[–]470_2_700_nm0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Very well put.

[–]Nec_sorte_Nec_fato[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Indeed. I was the beta bux provisioner that she was looking for. I gave up power every day in small, seemingly inconsequential exchanges. My sexual expectations were near zero. My frame was absolutely non-existent.

 

All of that is changing and it is very uncomfortable for her. She's going to fight it with the tools and weapons she has at her disposal - manipulation and sexual denials.

 

This is a game that happens to look a lot like war.

 

Thanks for the clear direction given.

I will continue to pursue my MAP, be unswayed by emotional manipulations, maintain the steady and ever increasing pressure on her, provide Comfort when justified, and still bring the fun, flirting, and feelz.

[–]Nec_sorte_Nec_fato[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Is this your hard no? Like...that's it? A few words and you're defeated? It's annoying when...

You might be making a good point here. It's more than annoying to me. I can feel myself becoming resentful that my wife is making me work to fuck her (push past her resistance). It's not playful LMR like with girls from days gone by; wife sounds emotionally checked out, flat, annoyed. It's seems that she's trying to diminish my sexual interest in her so she doesn't have to come up to my level. If she makes it difficult enough, and boring enough with Starfish duty sex, I'll just stop initiating it with her.

At some point, and I hope to begin working on this soon as well, you might get a to a spot where you can start changing that behavior too. Answering one with a light but meaningful "That's not attractive, stop".

Uh yeah, I believe that I'm wanting to skip ahead to this, or hell - even her desiring to fuck me. Looks like I need to reset my expectations, stretch my timeline, and up my gaming her.

"I reassured her" - How did you do this? What did you say?

I said I want her as my lover, not someone off Tinder or Craigslist. I reminded her she was more than enough for me sexually during the first years so I know it's in there (with a wry smile). That I know she loves me and is attracted to me, and that she's working hard to be a good wife and to please me. That I want her to be able to express herself to me - lower her defenses and show me how she feels about me.

when you look at all those text messages you can really see what this is. And it's just another attempt at manipulation.

I see it, thanks for making it crystal clear. She's not the harpy shit testing bitch type, but I've never met a human that doesn't like having the power. It's slowly being pulled away from her and she's not giving it up easily. Your words of caution are well taken. I am staying the course.

[–]470_2_700_nm1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

“I said I want her as my lover, not someone off Tinder or Craigslist. I reminded her she was more than enough for me sexually during the first years so I know it's in there (with a wry smile). That I know she loves me and is attracted to me, and that she's working hard to be a good wife and to please me. That I want her to be able to express herself to me - lower her defenses and show me how she feels about me.”

I’ll give you a few levels of feedback - choose the one that offends you just enough to make a change in your life:

Feedback a) when you wear your intentions on the outside, you remove all doubt for her, which by all MRP intents and purposes is counter productive. You need mystery. She needs... no... she WANTS you to be wanted by other woman. She WANTS to feel there is a chance another woman might scoop you up. Show her this, don’t talk about it.

Feedback b) You said too much here. It sounds to me like “you are my all... I don’t need anyone else.” This is disengenuous at best and at (likely) worst a complete failure of congruency. Why the fuck are you on this sub? She is obviously NOT fulfilling for you in a sexual way. She using sex to manipulate instead of to ensure the the likelyhood of your company sticking around.

Feedback c) just growl into her ear a few times a day how much you want to stretch her / (inset “”a for “her” if she’s been pushing you away lots) pussy open with your hard dick. When she finally pushes you away go ahead and carry on with the day. Then bang her at the end of the day. Have a second plan set up in case she flakes. This should include anything from going and fucking a plate through to reading in your car.

If you have not read Practical Female Phsycology do so. The 3 or four stages a woman goes through during the course of a relationship resonated with me, and I’d guess they would for you as well.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Wish I had more upvotes, your analysis is spot on. What do you think he should do here? Stay the course with this selfish monster, cheat, or divorce?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

As a general rule, as long as current wife is impeding progress to a happy, value driven, and sexually fulfilling life; keep progressing up the levels of dread, cheat when you are fluent at DL8, and prepare for divorce after.

I think the few instances where shit hits the fan and something needs to happen NOW are: she cheats on him, she continuously physically abuses him, she mentions police action, she's a threat to the kids, or, and I don't think we've ever seen this on the boards, she's a financial train wreck and the longer he waits the more debt he finds himself in.

[–]rocknrollchuck2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Damn, OP. He's right.

[–]JDRoedellRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Slow clap 👏

[–]Nec_sorte_Nec_fato[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Digging down deeper into what I know about her past: Her mother was a narcissist who was never satisfied with wife's efforts, and who also gaslighted her by accusing her of things she did not do. Mom also had a string of lovers and wife remembers quite vividly hearing them as a kid. If her mother were on fire I wouldn't even piss on her.

Wife has a strong sense of self as a good girl; her n-count at 30 years was two. She decribes herself as "vanilla with a couple of sprinkles".

As she approached and hit the wall, she was actively looking for a provisioner and was willing to do just about anything sexual to keep her man. I'm not positive about this part but it's either 1) once she acquiesced to their sexual demands(s) they dumped her, or 2) she couldn't or wouldn't continue acquiescing to their sexual demands. In either case, she has had bad experiences with men, sex, and breakups.

When I met her she was very sexually available once I made the small commitment of calling her my girlfriend. Her libido was higher than mine for the first 3 years of marriage.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Digging down deeper into what I know about her past:

Fuck her past. What, you're going to take the blame for slavery too?

her n-count at 30 years was two.

Even if true, doesn't mean anything. Plenty of field reports of virgins with FOMO

She decribes herself as "vanilla with a couple of sprinkles".

She describes herself as sexually valuable? you don't say.

When I met her she was very sexually available once I made the small commitment of calling her my girlfriend.

And surprised you cannot connect the dots here. One of you will do the bare minimum.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

1) once she acquiesced to their sexual demands(s) they dumped her, or 2) she couldn't or wouldn't continue acquiescing to their sexual demands.

Facts of life for a woman hitting the wall. This is what happens. Women don't complain about non-committal men when they're riding the carousel, but suddenly it's a problem when THEY want to settle down. As for #2, again she won't meet the bar, and it's someone else's fault for not accepting her low effort? Quite literally "why is this not enough?"

And so her libido being high to catch a man (and high enough 3 years into marriage) is suddenly being hamstered by facts that didn't impede this behavior during that time? She fucks you like an animal until she doesn't want to and now somehow it's because she heard mom bang? Did she somehow block out mom banging when her imperative said "I need to bag Nec_sorte_nec_fato?"

I've been trying to get a fact into my head for some time. And that fact is this: Everyone thinks they're broken. But 97% of the time they have the tools to improve, they just "choose" not to. And I put choose in quotes because sometimes it's really fucking tough and takes a concentrated reprogramming of the mind to fix it rather than a simple "choice". But it's not impossible. So for her, for you, for everyone that's broken: Is the effort worth it?

For me, I say it is. Because if everyone thinks they're broken, then all I need to do is get to a state of mind where I'm not broken, and I can fucking own it.

[–]DanceMonkeeDanceRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Excellent comment. I'd love to see that fleshed out more. It's the part of RP theory that we shorthand as, "she'll fuck...just not you."

[–]BobbyPeru0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

B b b but... mommy gave him a time ooouuuuttt

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy

I absolutely agree with this for the most part, but I do wonder about actual serious mental and/or physical issues. Stuff like asexuality, cluster B, hormone and other endocrine issues, mental stuff like abused childhood, phobias, etc. I think that one of the areas that this place is lacking is treatment of serious issues like this. Now I'm not saying that OPs wife has any of these, however I would want to exclude these as reasons.

I would think in general that you would want to stay the course, and if any of these issues pop up that you be the captain and get your FO appropriate treatment. That last comment by the OPs wife about abandonment did get me wondering. It's like there's the line between normal female manipulation and deep seated mental issues that need to be worked on.

Edit: While I know asexuality is not a "mental disorder" per se, that's not to say that some husbands might have gotten roped into a marriage with a asexual.

[–]snatch_haggis3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy

I think that one of the areas that this place is lacking is treatment of serious issues like this.

Def. Of course, beddeadrooms treats everything like it's a medical or mental health issue. Over here everything is a need for a man to own his shit and for dread and the 1k ft rope to do the rest.

I think the approach here solves for a helluva lot more people than the other route, but there are outliers for sure.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

And this might just be the answer. Either allow for everything to be a medical or mental issue and address the 3% that actually are, or improve, lead, and leave the door open and address 97% that aren't.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

It's a mental model.

the guy who owns everything is more willing to cut the dead weight if it's not keeping up.

[–]snatch_haggis0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Arguably a confident and fully actualized man would be more equipped to guide a spouse along through a medical or mental issue as well.

Say a guy on /r/DB gets his wife on HRT/TRT and things sort themselves out for awhile... How likely is it that's not gonna revert itself again later once the initial buzz wears off?

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

And thats how you get there. If you follow him, /u/weakandsensitive gives great examples in his comments of this concept.

Also, a deadbedroom guy would not guide a spouse to anything. They don't want to fuck, they want to seethe, cope, and complain.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I think it is a valid concern. I believe they make it harder to differentiate between what's going on because what they're doing usually works (men cave and enable that behavior), and it may very well be just a scale of how deep they'll go down the path of crazy to get their way, rather than this well defined line between normal and crazy. Either way, taking the time to actually figure out and potentially 'fix' the minds of the broken in many of these cases would take much more effort than what a man should be putting into her.

I was listening to Elliott Hulse on the treadmill today and he was speaking on depression, but what he said kind of parallels the idea of OP trying to help out here. He said that unless you've actually been down in the ditch that someone else is living in, then it's not wise to go into that ditch with the person because you could be subjecting yourself to the hell that lies within that ditch. In addition, by going down there, you provide the victim an outside party with which to justify to himself the negative feelings that he or she is feeling. In other words, you will be a sounding board that the victim uses to convince themselves they belong down there. He said instead, to reach down and offer a solid arm of support, with which the victim can use to help themselves back up out of the ditch. Kind of like leaving the door open.

That mentality of not getting down to another person's level but instead having them decide to help themselves repeats all over the place. PUA artists, Red Pillers, Fitness Gurus, Mental Models, even micro things like genres of music, things people enjoy, etc. all of these things if you try to influence someone to change and accept these as a new part of themselves, they won't do it unless you simply leave the door open and keep OI about whether they walk through it or not.

The concern I have in this case is that OP a really walking a tightrope at the moment. He's 6 months in and he still shows some butthurt, but he's also being overt with the wife when he says things like "I'm just disappointed that you don't want to have sex with me." and "I also need my wife to be my lover." That's good. The vision needs to be there. But we're not even sure if the rope has pulled taught yet. The wife doesn't have a track record of jumping on board for his visions, and now we're throwing her mental stability into the picture as well, with him waffling between being confident and being soft. It actually gives me some anxiety just thinking about it haha.

But I digress. I agree there is room for improvement on the boards for how to tackle a wife with REAL issues. And I did not even touch on abuse in this long winded post. I wouldn't even know where to start with that. What do you think we could do to do this better, taking this case as an example? And how do we not slip down the slippery slope of seeing another solid month of askMRP posts where each wife has the excuse of emotional instability?

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Honestly, I'm not sure I have a good answer.

The thing that raised my antenna were these two lines:

"I will never meet your expectations. That's why I know I'm not the girl for you. I'm not the woman you want."

"I was never enough for my mom... most of my friends... all of my past boyfriends. Now you change and decide I am not enough."

The question is, how much of this is due to normal female manipulation/gaslighting (as you have correctly called out for this quote - "Why can't that be enough for you?"), and how much of it might be due to depression/mental issues. The line however with the "I was never enough for my mom" makes me wonder if there is a bit more than just trying to seize power back. Hard to say without more context.

And even then, so say it's beyond just normal gaslighting and there's a issue there - what can the husband do. I'm all about practical results - lifting, building your own frame, it's good stuff, though the real question is what happens when someone has a real issue.

I remember a AskMRP question earlier this year about some guy whose wife had real issues - like she was molested at a young age, and in those situations I wouldn't know what advice to give other than "go see a professional".

I agree that MRP is in the business of fixing men, and sometimes the effect of that is fixing a marriage - but when there are serious problems with the wife, such as depression, etc, it's one of those times that you should give a single fuck (hat tip: J10) and work on that issue as well, but always do so from the context of your frame.

Practically, what that might mean is getting the wife to a doctor for physical, hormone check/bloodwork, or therapist (not marriage counselor). Putting on the captain's hat because the FO is out of comission.

I'd probably want someone with more experience in diagnosis of mental issues and treatment put together something from a red pill perspective for the 3% of issues that are - practical tips on what to do when your wife is BPD, or depressed (example: post partum depression), etc. There's a bit of that in the advice where we tell folks not to run dread on a pregnant wife, but stuff like depression or cluster B issues could potentially be fleshed out a bit more.

The rest of the 97%, well, that will get fixed when the 1k foot rope gets closer.

So practically, we probably should assume "emotionally instability" of a woman = normal woman, barring any glaring red flags.

Additional notes:

I got the "Why can't that be enough for you?" line a long while back (even before swallowing the pill, I believe), and essentially responded with some variation of "Fuck that!" A man has needs. Why can't that be enough for you is a bullshit answer and it's trying to keep the status quo.

[–]weakandsensitive1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

simple value props

do you care enough to put in the effort to make it happen or are you happier just taking the loss

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'd love to have a economist comment on MRP - people respond to incentives both good and bad, and it would be very interesting to see how the sidebar maps from a economic perspective.

Though when people don't respond normally to incentives is when the theory breaks down.

I might add this idea to a post in the future on the economics of MRP. Always liked stuff like Freakonomics.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy

First of all, great field report. Good detail, and it's obvious you're doing the work. Much better than many of the posts that you typically see.

Second, around the rejection. My thought is that it has to be subtle, rather than blatantly overt, due to you inadvertently showing butthurt. If we watched this interaction and how it played out, I suspect that we would see the butthurt displayed in body language and tone. I would suggest not walking out right away, but rather give it 5-10 minutes, then go do something else.

Third, right now her hamster is on overdrive. She sees the changes, and knows something is up. Honestly, it sounds like she has some abandonment issues as well - perhaps she needs therapy. I would only suggest that you recognize comfort tests and pass them, don't forget to game your wife, and initiate and lead her to the destination. Slow your roll. Keep on your path. Her hamster might be lost in the maze - see if you can lead her our of the maze.

[–]Nec_sorte_Nec_fato[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

You are absolutely right about the butthurt showing in that instance. It does need to be subtle and I knew it the minute I reacted. It's no excuse, but in that moment I was just so fucking fed up with her saying "No." that I bolted.

I do think therapy is in order. She's done it before to work on Mom issues, it will be something in her future I expect. The maze issue has been on my mind for the last few weeks, thanks for the pointer back to it. I'll read on it more today.
Curiously, my two statements to her ("disappointed you don't want to have sex" and "my marriage has three parts") were pointing her to the exit of the maze and she's rejecting that path...

[–]rocknrollchuck2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

As tempting as it may be to verbally continue to guide her to that exit, don't. You stated your expectations directly, and that's good. SHE KNOWS WHERE THE EXIT IS AND HOW TO GET THERE. Don't fool yourself - she knows. But give her some time and space to come to that conclusion on her own. That hamster has to figure it out for itself.

Keep staying the course, you're getting close. STFU and let the hamster do the heavy lifting.

[–]snatch_haggis3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Don't fool yourself - she knows

This. What's more, she's always known. It's just that over time, she's become less and less sexual, and has reconciled herself to that being a perfectly fine state of affairs. Suddenly, the patterns are changing and it's frightening.

[–]weakandsensitive5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is manipulative horseshit leveraging captain save a hoe. I very rarely call out women in these one sided posts, but this is a special case. Time for you to call her on her bullshit.

It's really simple - she decides she wants to meet your standard of sex or she doesn't. If she doesn't, she better not be salty if/when you get someone who does. If you're happy keeping her around for what she does provide, let her know. That's the deal - it's up to her to decide what she wants to do with the information she's given. You should be supportive of any choice she makes.

That's some pretty advanced gaslighting from your wife btw.

Also, what is frame? Frame is the reality that anything outside of your reality is funny, trivial, or irrelevant. Chew on that in the context of this FR.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

I only have 2 points:

  • I think you nailed when you said:

"My marriage has three parts. You're a good friend, and a good helper. I also need my wife to be my lover."

What you did not say, if she cannot do that, time to make changes.

[–]Sub_Corrector_Bot0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You may have meant u/WeakandSensitive instead of U/WeakandSensitive.


Remember, OP may have ninja-edited. I correct subreddit and user links with a capital R or U, which are usually unusable.

-Srikar

[–]SteelToeShitKickerRed Beret1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Sounds like you need to be initiating more.

[–]Nec_sorte_Nec_fato[S] -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy

Nope, I don't think so. Hard no's every day just made her dig in the heels further. I initiate every couple of days now, when I feel like it, but it has not improved the sexual dynamic either.

She's probably got some resentments that have developed since I started my MRP journey. The really frustrating part is that she was DTF the first three years of marriage and my Beta low libido slowly killed hers. All of this came together as a perfect storm this past June (I probably need to add that to the top of this post). I regained my sex drive quickly once realizing what I needed to do, but hers didn't rebound with mine.

[–]weakandsensitive5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Stsk didn't say shit about your wife.

[–]snatch_haggis0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I regained my sex drive quickly once realizing what I needed to do, but hers didn't rebound with mine.

FWIW, probably bears repeating that you're still early into the process and more than likely it will catch up with time. Doesn't mean you take your foot off the gas, just something to keep in mind.

[–]straius1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Keep on keepin on, this is the kind of emotional tension that can really open things up sexually.

If she's not horny or receptive to sex tonight then something else is going on. Otherwise, she's in a place where the sex can get intense from the emotional release, her need to feel wanted and valued and your growing dominance within the household.

Are you dominant when it comes to sex? Hold her down, move her how you want her, pull her across the bed, etc... That's all part of communicating desirability. Women want to know that they can awake the passions of a high value man, bring his inner animal out.

Tonight will be time to ramp it up in the bedroom.

[–]Nec_sorte_Nec_fato[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Tonight will be time to ramp it up in the bedroom.

I was thinking the same thing. If I had to bet at this moment, I'd wager she's not DTF when she gets home. But that's a self-defeating limiting thought I've adopted from so many previous denials.

Instead I will envision it as a very strong possibility and give it every chance to happen without my prior experiences coloring my effort.

Are you dominant when it comes to sex?

I've been ramping this up, and mixing it in. In the last 60 days she's called me "savage" twice while fucking. I could barely contain a smug laugh ;-)

[–]straius1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

If it's just hamstering generating all the anxiety, then you're in a good spot to lead her out of that place mentally without trying to remove her negative emotions.

When uncertainty is high, especially during your first changes taking hold, it's the opportune moment to demonstrate leadership, savage fucking and then remaining solid afterward. If it's the right time, she'll start to settle into that confidence and drop some of her last walls and it should be more open season.

I say this without knowing your story so if there's other baggage lurking it may be longer yet, the key for you obviously is that no matter the sex or no sex tonight, just stay solid.

[–]snatch_haggis1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy

I think you're doing great, man.

You've said before in your OYS that you've been afraid to apply dread, and that you always swoop in too early with the comfort when she gets like this. I think it's okay to apply maybe a little more comfort (that's what seems to have the hamster spinning IMO) but to keep some distance as well. You're treading a pretty good middle ground now, I think.

As far as the content of the texts, acta non verba, and watch what she does.

The womanese here seems to be "all these changes are making me feel scared, and I feel afraid that I don't have control anymore."

Her old reliable Betabux's balls have finally dropped, and the comfortable arrangement of squeezing a nut out of you every now and then in exchange for all that comfort and provisioning is in flux.

I wouldn't engage with her about that directly at all, of course. General comfort, but don't hit those statements head on, that's a trap.

To the rest, just wait and see what she does, IMO. Biggest win here is continuing to be objective and not being ruled by anger. As long as you can keep that up, you'll have the upper hand.

[–]Nec_sorte_Nec_fato[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

The encouragement is appreciated. Yeah, I've had Oneitis for her and strong urges to relieve her discomfort when she started feeling dread. Since DL4 kicked off a couple of weeks ago there have been several times that she's made comments like "If you keep upping your testosterone you'll need to find another woman to satisfy you.". Now I STFU and leave it hanging right there for her to think about.

As far as the content of the texts, acta non verba, and watch what she does

Good reminder. I did this exactly right Saturday while I was out of town. Didn't even read the texts, came home with an open mind, and within a matter of minutes she was all good. I'll continue to apply this, rinse and repeat.

The womanese here seems to be "all these changes are making me feel scared, and I feel afraid that I don't have control anymore." ... the comfortable arrangement of squeezing a nut out of you every now and then in exchange for all that comfort and provisioning is in flux.

Yup.

I wouldn't engage with her about that directly at all, of course. General comfort, but don't hit those statements head on, that's a trap.

Mind elaborating on this more? I'd like to hear your full thoughts on what this looks like.

Biggest win here is continuing to be objective and not being ruled by anger. As long as you can keep that up, you'll have the upper hand.

Daily reminders to myself such as "she has a little girl inside that needs to be guided” and "subconsciously she needs that feeling of being kept in check by a man that deserves the top spot” have done wonders for my objectivity and Amused Mastery.

[–]snatch_haggis1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Here are some of the things she's said, I'm hoping that y'all can help chart my next course of action:

  • "I will never meet your expectations. That's why I know I'm not the girl for you. I'm not the woman you want."

General comfort, but don't hit those statements head on, that's a trap.

Mind elaborating on this more? I'd like to hear your full thoughts on what this looks like.

I'm saying it's a classic male mistake to presume that what they tell us is what we need to react to.

You can come at some of the statements she made in a roundabout way, sure:

"I am happy now. But that doesn't mean I couldn't be happier."

"You're the woman I want, I just want more of you."

"I understand these changes in me are a lot to adjust to right now."

When I say it's a trap, I just mean going head on and responding to any of it point by point won't get you anywhere.

Personally I'd probably default to the old standby of "I'm sorry you're upset."

It's not the same thing as "I'm sorry", but they will often hear it that way, and it acknowledges the feelz without trying to rationalize them.

[–]DanceMonkeeDanceRed Beret1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

When I say it's a trap, I just mean going head on and responding to any of it point by point won't get you anywhere.

This is true for almost every interaction with my wife.

[–]snatch_haggis0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

This comment by jacktenhearts is the best rundown of strategy IMO.

[–]DanceMonkeeDanceRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yep. I think his voice is missed. Seems that much of what we call Rambo is the idea that FMoFY is effective as a relationship strategy.

[–]SiegreicherMarsch1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

Provide enough comfort to avoid the cognitive dissonance from exploding her head, but I think you'll find that this turmoil is a relatively short phase of your RP journey. She will hopefully do some introspection and work on her own emotional codependency.

My wife wrote me a manifesto and taped it to the garage door...the first half was very reminiscent of some of those texts. The latter half talked about how she was going to start doing things "for herself" like getting a personal hobby, going to the gym, etc. I think she intended it to be a shot at me, but I'm over here with my arms up like "thank you God, it works". We haven't had this particular sort of meltdown since.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Provide enough comfort to avoid the cognitive dissonance from exploding her head

Why? she has not earned comfort, why in the fuck are you rewarding bad behaviour?

My wife wrote me a manifesto and taped it to the garage door

To which you clearly tossed in the trash and not read it, right?

[–]Nec_sorte_Nec_fato[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

She will hopefully do some introspection and work on her own emotional codependency.

She's capable of this I think, but will have to feel enough pressure from me to go through the pain. Women do not like introspection in general, and painful introspection in particular.

How has her sexual interest in you changed since then? That's really all I'm missing now - I want my wife (current or future) to desire me and demonstrate that to me a time or two a week.

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

to desire me and demonstrate that to me a time or two a week.

Careful here; this sounds like it's more about your ego's need for validation than about the sex. Focus now on mutual acceptance of each others' initiations, and focus on quality only after the sex becomes consistent and it's no longer about validation for you.

[–]SiegreicherMarsch1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yes I've achieved your goal of her being genuinely receptive at least 1-2 times a week. However, she still "doesn't like blowjobs" (but for some funny reason will give them enthusiastically when there's enough dread) and has given up on losing weight (she started trying about 8 or 10 months into my unplugging, but recently decided "it's not worth it"). In conclusion, still work to do.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

I wanted to proceed slowly here.

Why does everyone absolutely fear making their wives uncomfortable? FFS, do it properly, but don't pussyfoot around, you aren't trying to boil a frog here.

I reassured her

I love this part, you were starting to actually induce some emotions from your wife, sexual ones. then you proceed to work your ass off to keep them from resulting in sex for you. Self sabotage FTW.

But this morning she brings it up again.

And you talk, and you talk and you talk, yet the panties aren't off any more, and the dick is no wetter. Still think talking is the answer?

"I will never meet your expectations. That's why I know I'm not the girl for you. I'm not the woman you want."

wounded animal routine. You showed her that if she plays hurt, you'll go back into your hole. Stop looking at this language as exchange of information. she is testing the waters of manipulation, see what works on getting you to keep cashing those cheques.

"I was never enough for my mom... most of my friends... all of my past boyfriends. Now you change and decide I am not enough."

This is gaslighting. The fact you even came home after this is a big mistake. I would have gotten angry over this, called her a manipulative cunt, and gone out for a day. I wouldn't talk about it, any talk she would bring up about it would have had me broken record 'You don't want me talking to you about that dumb shit'. She fucking knows it's cunty, and did it anyways. To quote Brad Pitt:

Fuck you, pay me.

Only thing she needs to hear. you should be willing to leave her if she's low value, you should be unwilling to talk to her, it only gives her more words to convince you that you're wrong, she's right, and to go jerk off in the shower.

[–]Nec_sorte_Nec_fato[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

you should be willing to leave her if she's low value, you should be unwilling to talk to her, it only gives her more words to convince you that you're wrong, she's right...

I am willing to leave her. Except for the distinct lack of enthusiastic sex, she does provide me very good value. I recognize that talking with her is a losing game. She is not convincing me of anything different regardless - what I want and expect in my relationship isn't wrong.

I AM willing to give her the time and space to adjust to that reality as /u/rocknrollchuck mentioned. I've effectively changed a five year pattern over the last few months, and I'm taking power in the relationship away as well. That's a lot for anyone to accept overnight.

 

Your advice and tone seem to directly contradict BPP's warnings such as "Move up these levels one at a time, slowly, and carefully...".

But I thought I recently read a comment of yours that said your 21 Convention speech was based on the 12 Levels of Dread. Do I have the wrong person?

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I prefer deliberate over slow and careful.

then again, Im the guy who posted on Ellis from die hard being the role model.

Way I see it, we are supposed to be the risk taking gender, sexuall appetites etc. I don't see how moving like scared molasses jives with that. Then again, I'm pretty sure a lot of guys are still 'doing it for her' and scared shitless of losing her, and I'm not going to reccomend idiots with dynamite act as if they actually do have abundance

[–]screechhaterRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You are missing strength in your frame, your abundance sucks and OI is pathetic. If I open up a picture dictionary you are the painting of butt hurt rejected boy that now wants to fuck after shutting her down for three years

You really crack me up with the walking away from duty sex. All you guys do.

What you stupid fucks refuse to identify is in “Dread” she is gonna do duty - starfish to keep a man. When you walk away, it’s hamster causing because you are sending mixed signals.

With Starfish or duty, It’s up to you to make a concerted effort to make the experience memorable, then she identifies doing her duty to keep you, she gets something out of it

In regards to her hard no’s- you give up easy like a zit faced teen boy trying to negotiate sex, which tells me your frame sucks and your kino must start just before bed, because you really don’t want to fuck as much as you want her validation

Three years you trained her for little sex and now you are working a turn around and the hamster is going, but your frame sucks enough you aren’t really passing shit tests

[–]WesternhagenWinner0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I went too fast too early and scared the cat in a big way.

I feel like there's something really odd about treating your wife like a cat that you don't want to scare away. The analogy is from Day Bang, where it makes perfect sense. You don't want to be too cocky, direct, or personal with a Day Game opening. Does this logic even apply to a wife? You bought the damn cat, brought it home, and lived with it for years, scaring it away is not the issue. If anything this is a fat, neutered older cat that knows you too well and is utterly bored with you, and won't even respond when you try to tease it with the laser pointer.

Maybe I just want a better analogy than this for "don't go Rambo"...

[–]Nec_sorte_Nec_fato[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Good point, I used "scared the cat" in the wrong context. I've read Day Bang. Was looking for shorthand prolly should have just spelled it out. Didn't want to use "went Rambo" as there is debate on that exact meaning...

[–]Reach180Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Seems to me there's too much verbal reassurance from you and not enough attraction from her. You scared yourself "going too fast early" as you say, and now you're trying to split the difference with a nice guy approach.

All the advice about calling her out on her bullshit hinges on whether or not you have leverage, which you appear to not have. So if you proceed that route, know it's going to blow up in your face....you'll be sucked into a DEER exhibition.

I think you still have work to do.

The thing that really sticks out to me is the whole paragraph about the bed, the closeness to your wife at night. Think about the alpha male you aim to be in your imagination - Don Draper, Clint Eastwood, whoever....does that guy swap out beds so wife is forced to be closer? There's a difference between enjoying a cuddle with the wife, vs. needing it. If you're initiating the bedtime snuggles, telling her you need her touch to fall asleep? You're framing her as the mommy and yourself as the 8 year old boy. It's needy. It's unattractive. You need to kill it.

[–]mrpthrowa0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

dude just fuck her already, she wants it bad.

[–]DimHorseradish0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Hey bro, the part about your wife crying and being reluctant to change etc sounds like what my ex used to do. That coupled with her mummy issues makes me think that she might have BPD. Maybe read up on it and then decide on your next move. Unfortunately, all the advice for BPD women seems to be to cut your losses and to run because it's too difficult to make them want to change themselves.

You seem to be in a similar scenario as my LTR where I felt she was disrespectful and so I just stopped replying her and ignored her phone calls (which did make me seem butthurt) and when I ignored her for a few days straight she just threw out the bombshell and wanted to break up (which reeked of manipulation in the power struggle between us, I suspected she wanted to make me break and be on my knees). I read up on the Redpill material and held my frame and gave her the breakup she wanted. I felt so much relief after that, and I realised the only thing I missed was the physical touch and nothing else and also because I could get other girls. When I interacted with other girls, I just realised how needy and insecure my ex was.

[–]slappysq-3 points-2 points  (1 child) | Copy

What are your numbers for OHP, BP, and DL? Weight? BF%? You will have a difficult time going past DL4 if your numbers aren't up to par.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If he's going consistently, he'll be fine. Sometimes, guys take a while to get to where they want to be, no reason not to still leave the house.



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