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I pushed for sex, wife went to sleep on couch, crying

Reddit View
November 19, 2017

Last night we lay in bed talking, and I tried to initiate sex. She seemed unexcited but not resistant. I still have trouble reading whether she's genuinely uninterested or just passively waiting for me to spark her interest.

As I escalated further, she started giving some signs that she was just enduring it. So I gave up the effort. I gave her a raspberry, and tried to lay down, but she stuck her head on my pillow, and said " you can't lay down, I've got my head here now," laughing.

So i thought, maybe i shouldn't give up so easily. She was already topless, so without saying much i went to remove her pants. She was laughing, but grabbed her pants to keep them on. I was laughing and continued pulling. She laughed and tickled me and said "stop it." That's something she often says when we're kidding around. I tickled her back a little and tried holding her down. She was laughing the whole time, said "stop it" a few more times, but i kept going. Eventually she stopped laughing and turned angry.

I let her go, she got out of bed, grabbed her pajamas and pillow, and went off to sleep on the couch.

I thought:

  • I'm an idiot.
  • ‎I've scared her.
  • what the hell was i doing?

After a minute or two, i went to talk to her, feeling like an absolute asshole. House is dark, we can't see each other. I knelt down next to her and found her crying. I said, "hey, come here", tried to hug her, but she wasn't having it. She said, "go back to bed." I stayed, and over the next few minutes said these things:

  • I've scared you.
  • ‎that's not what i meant to do.
  • ‎i apologize.
  • ‎that bed is always a safe place for you.
  • ‎can you accept my apology? (Yes)
  • ‎can you believe i wouldn't have hurt you? (Okay)
  • ‎come back to bed whenever you're ready.
  • ‎take your time.

I went back to bed and eventually slept.

Our daughter woke up later in the night and was sick in the bathroom. Oldest daughter came to get us and asked where mom was. I told her to go back to bed, and went to take care of the sick one.

I got her back in bed, then went and told my wife about it. I also asked her, "are you still mad at me?" No, she said. I went back to bed, and a few minutes later she came too, muttering under her breath, and slept almost falling off the edge of her side of the bed.

She and my daughters are still asleep. I'm up early to do some house work (bathtub caulking), but came here to write this.

I thought i was trying something new, but it chased her out of bed and made her cry. I thought an apology was the best thing, but I don't want to be stuck in permanent silent apology mode for days and days.

How badly have i fucked up? What good options do i have to move forward from this?

Post Information
Title I pushed for sex, wife went to sleep on couch, crying
Author NoneSuchAs
Upvotes 10
Comments 89
Date 19 November 2017 02:21 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Original Link
Similar Posts

[–]resolutions31654 points55 points  (45 children) | Copy

I have a different take from most people here.

In my experience you can usually tell what the painful truth is by noticing the rationalizations - in this case, your “having trouble reading” her cues.

Wrestling is fun and flirty because it is not real. It allows both of you to play with your physical power imbalance in a safe environment.

She didn’t want to continue. You got angry. And you didn’t stop.

Suddenly, it isn’t okay anymore. Suddenly, you’re just overpowering your wife. You broke the rules of the game and made it not a game, simultaneously displaying that 1.) you don’t respect her boundaries, 2.) you can’t be trusted, 3.) you’re incredibly butthurt after being denied sex.

Yes, your DEER explosion afterwards wasn’t great. But IMO it’s because you didn’t actually own your shit.

[–]liquorandwhores94 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

As a woman who has had previous boyfriends pester and poke her incessantly for sex, this is the answer. That's irritating. I've never had one hold me down before though. That's terrifying. Do not do that.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (43 children) | Copy

You increased the physicality of your sexual relationship without determining what word means actually means "stop"... (and "stop" does NOT mean "stop"), and by not realizing that she had checked out because you let your own emotional state override your responsibility to read her nonverbal communication to keep her safe.

Read about safewords, the "stoplight' system, and "checking in".

Playing with the power dynamic can be game changing and incredible. But with great power comes great responsibility.

(L+W94, being "held down" during sex is a pleasure for MANY MANY women. You should try it before making a blanket statement. Terrifying is right next to intensely erotic in the minds of many people. But if you equate sex with pestering and poking, then you probably haven't met a dominant man who you could trust to overpower you.)

You, the man, are now responsible for both her safety and all aspects of the "scene". It's NOT about you. It's not about you getting sex. You have to stay emotionally level if you're topping because if you don't, it becomes about you and you have then by definition lost control of the event.

If you want to be Dom to her sub, you need to work.

P.S. - Do not apologize. Do not "talk" about it. What you do talk about is the necessary conversations about safewords and stoplights. Apologizing for it is acknowledging you didn't know WTF you were doing - which makes you weak. SHOW her you're a man competent enough for her to trust. Acta non Verba. Apologizing is counterintuitively asking her for absolution, which shifts the power dynamic back off of you. To her.

I have multiple posts regarding how to Dom responsibly if that's the hill you want to climb.

Not even going to discuss the cringefest Deer vomit post event... You got appropriately skewered below.

Own Your Shit.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy


(But in addition to safewords I do think they should discuss what they both liked and disliked about the scene.)

[–]liquorandwhores94 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

So firstly I really do resent all these people saying that you don't need to apologize to your wife for your actions when you made her cry. You do need to apologize for that and I'm glad you did. Second, I'm sorry I should have made myself clear. I have been held down in a sexual context when both me and my partner were turned on, MANY TIMES before. It doesn't feel threatening or scary when you do that with someone you're comfortable with though. I have never had a partner hold me down and try to force themselves on me in a context like this one during which I felt threatened. He admits they weren't laughing anymore and he was angry. That isn't fun or sexy. That's so scary. Especially if she's ever been assaulted before. I agree that they probably should work on safewords here. He said he was angry when he held her down and he said that it made her cry and he said that he felt like he needed to apologize for it afterwards do by his own admission we can tell this was a situation where he just went too far.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret[M] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

You know the rules.

[–][deleted] -6 points-5 points  (38 children) | Copy

1 - "Sorry"... Being unapologetic is a fundamental building block in trying to give men back their power... which runs antithetical to your female need to be apologized to "as a woman". Stop trying to get men to play using the female playbook. Our playbook was not written for you anymore than yours was for us, so of course you don't understand or agree with it... it wasn't made for you.

2 - "So scary"... Nowhere do we advocate what OP did. What we do is try to dissect where and why it came off the rails so there's a logical repair available.

3 - "Assaulted before"... don't bring up this weak ass argument. If you spent any time here you'd realize that the word assault has been thrown around so much and describes such a vast umbrella that it's value has been eroded to nothingness by people like you using it exactly as you just did...Similar to "Rape". Using incendiary trigger words to prop up your assertations are a solid sign that your appeal can't stand on it's own.

You should probably do a little more work before posting here again... this is not the forum for a female perspective op ed fluff piece.

I really don't mind women posting here when they have something insightful to say, but when your rhetoric adds nothing to the conversation but tired tropes, admonitions, trigger words, and shaming behaviour, it's time to go. This is a male space, first and foremost. You don't respect that.

[–]resolutions3167 points8 points  (27 children) | Copy

And you don’t know shit about what you’re talking about.

If you think you get off from needing to apologize for legitimately wronging another person just because you have a penis you are being an entitled brat.

Men own their shit. He need to own his shit. You need to own your shit. If you fucked up, that means apologizing and fixing the problem.

If what you got from MRP was “I don’t have to apologize to mommy because I’m a BIG BOY now” you need to grow the fuck up.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Never apologize unless something died.

Mistakes were made, avoid making them in the future. Apologies are a powerplay. Even though she says she wants one, she really doesn't. Same as when she says she wants you to be more vulnerable around her.

It's never worked out.

Apologies are in the same thread.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

You do you.

Owning your shit and apologizing are not hand in hand.

Try to look at why you feel the need to apologize.

Is it for the other person? How does saying words actually do anything of value? What does it actually accomplish?

Are you doing it for yourself? why? What need is inside you that you have to stop your life and reflect on a mistake you made in the past.

Apologizing is a useless platitude that makes us feel better in the same way as someone asking "how's your day going?" Nobody cares, it's just a societal nicety. Which you should know better than to blindly kowtow.

Take that extra step up to the next level and try to really think about why you feel the need to do what you do. What will it Really accomplish?

Sorry you don't feel the same way.

[–]resolutions3167 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

Apologizing is a useless platitude? In what way? Are you worried that an apology would ONLY help to repair a social bond? Is that not Machiavellian enough?

Look, there’s a difference between a mistake and a fuck up. A mistake - let’s say dropping a plate - requires no apology. It’s simply a thing that happened. Make it a joke, don’t let people shame you for it.

But fucking something up is different. If you deliberately took an action that harmed another person, you’re braking the social contract with that person. Especially here, when an aggressive act was taken against a loved one (yes, that’s a bit dramatic, but it is still an accurate description of OPs post).

Yes, an apology is humbling. It is you, owning the fact that you fucked up, and openly pledging to improve in the future. And no, just “owning your shit” in silence is NOT the same thing, because it does nothing to repair the social contract with the other person.

The whole point is to make the other person feel better. Does that build attraction? No - it builds comfort, which is what’s called for here.

At some point, the complete inability to openly admit wrong reeks of insecurity and weakness.

Of course, you do you. And not every situation demand an apology, and I’m not asking anyone to debase themselves or say they’re a terrible person.

But looking at reality - good or bad - and feeling free to speak that truth is a hallmark of my own vision of healthy masculinity. It may not be yours, but just like you asked me to think about why I would feel the need to apologize here, I urge you to examine why you feel the need not to.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (23 children) | Copy

You're both saying the same thing but disagree about the definition of the word.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret5 points6 points  (22 children) | Copy

Having remorse is not the same as supplication, disguised as remorse

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (21 children) | Copy

Neither resolutions316 nor Triadis3 are calling for supplication whatsoever.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret3 points4 points  (20 children) | Copy

Thats what apologies are, since they don't bind you to actually fixing the problem, only the feels.

Its literally a manipulation, to keep someone from justified/not justified sense of grievance.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret[M] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy

I really don't mind women posting here when they have something insightful to say

We've tried it multiple times. Every time, once a zero-sum choice is discussed, they turn into the same thing. Man-shaming rants.

We just aren't able to have consistent female posting with value, unless we never depart from lifting advice.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy

Thread's deleted might as well let OP read her responses.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Nope. Policy is to remove value leeches and dead weight on sight.

Op had good insight from some guys, and good statements to establish his frame. all she did was call him rapey.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy

So? If he can't handle being called rapey, helicopter parenting that teaches him helplessness isn't going to help.

I'm assuming he messaged you to complain about it?

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Hes scared enough to delete everything, clearly being his own judge and not supplication is an issue.

We are dissecting a corpse at this point.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Great post by Archwinger. Great comments too. Haven't seen him around much lately...and his last few posts are pretty accurate.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

He was active when I found these subs. His wisdom and insight assisted me immensely in my baby steps 3 years ago.

He, jackten, BPP and that stoneypimpletits guy changed my life.

No homo

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Agreed and adding W&S to the list. Someone has to be behind you cracking the whip.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (6 children) | Copy

I've had sessions where she's giggling and laughing and saying no a lot. 2 things:

1) Know when the fun turns into you kind of begging. After some time where her resistance is becoming an annoyance, I just stop. Remember a form of hard no is a soft no for long enough that things start getting obvious. Also remember PUA LMR tactics. If she resists, back up a step and start again...3 resists and freeze out. You see how she came over to your pillow when you froze out? That's why it works.

2: There's a huge hole in your story between continued play and getting angry. Why did the anger start? What happened?

[–]Aerik9 points10 points  (3 children) | Copy

tickling makes people laugh. it is not a sign of consent.

when somebody says stop, fucking listen to it.

basically you were assaulting your wife. yes it's bad. and no, the answer is not to lift weights in teh gym and find new ways to ignore her lack of consent later, no matter what ppl around here are saying.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy

During the divorce this incident will be known as “physical, sexual and emotional abuse” and “the time he tried to hold me down and rape me”. The new police officer will look at her tear stained face and know what an abuser you are. His fists will tighten and he will say “don’t worry maam, we will get this asshole out of your house tonight and put on an order so he cannot return and frighten you and your children ever again”. You will give your version to your lawyer who will say, “hmmm, that sounds pretty close to her version”. You will realise that you should be alpha before you try out alpha moves. Sexy men don’t need to chase women, women chase them.

Firstly I am not the right guy if you want to save your marriage. My diagnosis is that your marriage is fucked, your wife checked out emotionally a long time ago. If I were you I would digest this over the next few weeks while hitting the gym harder and flirting with strangers. Read up on game and pick up, fix your wardrobe. Withdraw all affection from this wretched woman who sees you as a rapist. Don’t try and fix this (plenty of beta btiches in here are going to have a cry when they read this then run in and tell their wife how much they love them) start prepping for your single life. Do you really want to fuck a woman who finds you repulsive? Plenty of fish in the sea.

EDIT: Do not confuse this for butthurt, I actually hope this comment goes into the negatives because it proves my point that the readership here is overwhelmingly more blue and purple than they are red. Anyone who downvotes this comment should immediately buy a Prada bag for their lovely wife to prove what a bad guy I am for not believing in the sanctity of marriage.

[–]Whitified3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

the readership here is overwhelmingly more blue and purple than they are red.

Yeah haven't visited MRP in years but I counted at least 2 complete Blue pill posters, this thread alone.

And no, they're not even buried in downvotes yet.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret[M] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Next time, report and move on. Bait comments are bait.

as for the blue/purple attitudes... If they didn't need to get past that, they wouldn't be here. This is the garbage fire sub for a reason

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Do you have kids?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yup, I am fantastically capable single dad.

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Seriously. I'd withdraw all affection for a month after something like that.

But keep working up the dread game. This lack of affection should start to scare her

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I would withdraw all affection, money, investment, commitment, time, energy and thought from her, then entirely withdraw myself from her life.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Seems a bit melodramatic. So there was a misread. Nobody was raped. BFD.

[–]RPAlternate42Red Beret4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

/u/rian_stone said it already, but it bears repeating:

Sex didn't "scare" her or make her "angry" when you made the two kids, when you got married, when you first met.

Sex, with you, makes her cry and get angry.

Sex, with you, makes her cry.

But none of that is really your fault. Based on what I read she was trying to supplicate you to her with the carrot of sex except she sucks at holding the stick and the the string broke.

Never follow her. Never DEER. Never act like a woman would. This "safe space" bullshit needs to stop cumming out of your mouth.

She left the room, suddenly, to go cry about having sex with you. Let her go. Enjoy the bed by yourself. If you want to play her game with some dread, when she comes back in, re-initiate. If she isn't performing up to your standards, stop. If she tries to argue, leave... the house.

If she wants to be alone to cry because of sex with you, then you can remove both sex and you fro the equation and she can cry, alone, by herself. While you're gone, she may consider how she might be crying, alone, forever as a post-wall, divorced spinster.

Women, my wife included, think men should treat them the same no matter what. They think that even if I don't have sex or refuse sex from him that he should still be happy-go-lucky around me and do things with me. This is the classic feminine entitlement.

You don't need to be happy with her if she doesn't inspire happiness in you.

[–]JudgeDoom690 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy

The root cause of your problem is that your wife is not attracted to you.

You putting the sexy moves on her repulses her and puts her in a bad situation. She can either deny you and feel guilty, or let someone she is repulsed by fuck her. She is in a lose/lose situation.

Keep improving your level of attractiveness. Work on your fitness, don't let shit tests control your frame, lead your family in a fun way, and own your shit.

Keep initiating, especially when she is in the horny week. You do track her cycle, correct?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy

I STRONGLY disagree with tracking your wife’s cycle. That is some creepy fucking shit. Anyone who tracks their wife’s cycle to maximise their chances at sex, needs a new wife. The only way I know her cycle is if it is hummer week.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm with you here. Very, very loose tracking.

And honestly, 3 days before shark week, bitch shields are on full power, so it's not as if I don't get a reminder if I forget to count to 30

[–]JudgeDoom690 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

I disagree with your disagreement. Knowledge is power. Re-read chapter 15 of MMSLP. It’s basic theory toward understanding and anticipating a woman’s mood and interest level in sex. Ignoring it is naive.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

I don’t read books by people who understand less about women and sexual dynamics than I do. Trust me, if you are an attractive man she never says no. If she never says no, why do I need to know anything except how awesome I am?

[–]JudgeDoom691 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Kudos to you for being so attractive "she never says no". That is the ultimate goal.

And it's good you understand women and sexual dynamics more than the likes of Athol Kay. You should publish your theories on the matter, I'll be the first to read it.

For the rest of us who aren't at your level of attractiveness and expertise yet, u/Rollo-Tomassi covered the concept very well in the Rational Male in his article "Your Friend Menstruation":

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Rollo’s writing is fantastic. I agree with 90% of what he says. I am a TRP guy s the Athol Kay stuff is not for me. Plenty of girls reject me for sex, I am not Chad, but when I am in a short term/ plate or LTR situation I don’t get rejected.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy

After a minute or two, i went to talk to her, feeling like an absolute asshole.

when a girl shoots you down hard at the bar, do you apologize for being a dick afterwards? I have a top 8 list of things you shouldn't do:

  • I've scared you. - Acquiesce
  • ‎that's not what i meant to do. - DEER
  • I apologize. - Supplicate
  • that bed is always a safe place for you. - Grow a vagina
  • can you accept my apology? -validation seeking
  • can you believe i wouldn't have hurt you? - DEER
  • come back to bed whenever you're ready. - Surrender
  • take your time. - Fuck, is there a word for pussy that works here?

Notice, you didn't scare when she got her fuck trophy, the ring, the mortgage payments, only when you went for yours. This is learned helplessness brother, and you're fucking it up bad.

She has said, in no uncertain terms, that the idea of fucking you brings her to tears. Do what you want with that info? Why do you constantly beg her to love you like mommy should? I hope you've not gotten through NMMNG and WISNIFG yet, because you're falling for all of them.

[–]johneyapocalypse1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Incredible answer that summarizes nearly the entirety of what mrp and it's materials have to say.

"She has said, in no uncertain terms, that the idea of fucking you brings her to tears."

  • Brutal. Truth hurts; though it can also motivate one to action.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Damn, Rian on point today. Clearly explained as well. Keep it up

[–]BobbyPeru0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Notice, you didn't scare when she got her fuck trophy, the ring, the mortgage payments, only when you went for yours. This is learned helplessness brother, and you're fucking it up bad.

Yep, OP needs to become attractive again

Unless he’s always been beta bux to her, and that’s a steeper hill to climb

[–]meaningintragedy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Jesus man what a fucking pussy you are. I just threw up reading the part where you followed her to the couch.

[–]twinklenuts0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You should buy her chocolate and wine.

[–]cabanaboy46-3 points-2 points  (2 children) | Copy

I had a similar incident happen to me months ago. My wife and i were getting into some sexy times and i took a risk and told her to get on her knees and blow me. You can read the post for the specifics. Basically she got super pissed and felt like a cheap whore.

Luckily i read the side bar. So i just laughed at her response and when she asked me to apologize i said im not apologizing for asking for a bj when she pressed me for an explanation of my behavior.

She was pissed for a few days, but i had the frame that i did nothing wrong (cuz i didnt) and that she was the one with the issue. After several days of silent treatment from her she eventually reopened a respectful dialoge with me that has led to noticeable improvement in our sex life.

[–]mountainbiker178-4 points-3 points  (0 children) | Copy

That's awesome.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Exactly. It's important to take sexual risks and experiment and have fun!

But... sometimes things fuck up. Here they were having fun in a new way and the mood was lost for whatever reason. And OP doesn't want to rape his wife.

One possibility would be to just acknowege that there was miscommunication. These things are very common when exploring new types of play. A good way to deal with that is to have a safeword and learn aftercare. And have some ongoing discussion to setup expectations about limits. OP will need to rebuild some trust and work improving communication during sex. They both clearly enjoyed the playfulness of the wrestling. They just need to figure out what they liked and what went wrong so they can adjust and try it differently next time.

[–]Bobsfreestuff-3 points-2 points  (8 children) | Copy

You are too emotional invested in her emotions. Remove this incident from your mind. Get your jobs done at the house. Have a outstanding day with your wife and children. Do not bring it up to her.

[–]drty_prRed Beret1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

When she left the bed, she did so to get a reaction out of you. By you going down to her, you proved to her you're below her still. When your daughter got sick and you went down to tell her about it afterwards, you further proved you're a beta. Essentially you need to focus on removing yourself from her frame.

[–]mountainbiker1783 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Agree about OP acting beta by following her. The second point, he acted beta by going to her again about his daughter. He should have just handled his daughter and gone back to bed.

[–]OsmiumZulu0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

“I thought... what the hell was I doing?”

Funny, I was wondering what the hell you were doing too...

Read the other comments in this thread, then STFU and study up until you can recognize the reality of what is going on around you rather than groping around in the dark hoping to stumble across your own dick.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret-4 points-3 points  (4 children) | Copy

#3, 4 and 5 read over and over

How much do you weigh ?

Do you lift ?

Have you read NMMNG ?

Are you a man ? or, her emotional tampon ?

BTW what the fuck did your daughter eat that she got out of bed and got sick ? Don’t tell me you don’t know.

When you properly lead, you will know what the daughter ate and, your wife will be attracted once again

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I absolutely love that you keep hammering guys on lifting and weight. It's the two things they have total control over and if they're failing those, they're wasting everyone's time.

[–]CaptainJackSorrow-3 points-2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I bet she had been molested and something you did triggered her. My ex was molested and if I put my fingers near her mouth she'd freak out and start crying.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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