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Clever girl, I wasn't paying attention

Reddit View
October 6, 2017

One of my fellow mods caught me. We are so focused on unfucking married guys, swapping notes etc. We forgot that theres a new group coming in. The 'about to be' marrieds. And I, us, we. We discuss things with you from the same lens as a guy who IS married. Always good to have another guy come in and point out the obvious, hard to see it on the ground. I forgot that, I'll own it. your not married, why in the fuck would you get married? Why in the fuck would you want to when you have clear problems? They are called red flags because they are signals to cull her from your life. When you get a raw piece of chicken for dinner, do you send it back, or ask how best to season it so you can swallow it easier?

For all your problems? Your best answer is "don't do it" And if you listened to that advice, you wouldn't be here. You'd be at TRP, where you know thats what they are going to tell you, so you figure you'll get the answer you want to here from us instead.

Theres no difference in outlook between us, only strategies and situations.

You won't listen, but listen up. If you have a laundry list of red flags, boundary crossing behaviour... Why the fuck are you signing up for your own loss of ANY power in establishing your boundaries? If you can't handle a bitch when you can literally walk away, how you gonna handle one when you can't? At least not cheaply, or easily. Heaven forbid you get attached to your child you will have with her. You're chemically designed to love that little guy to the point of self sabotage, and you can't even deal with your shit without it.

In Canada, they give you the marriage for time in, you guys don't get that... Something about keeping the gays out of marriage or some shit. Can you make it work? Sure. Andy Dufraine could crawl through a shit pipe to escape from prison. The question is, why would you want to? Look deep. I know why, do you? Guess what your problem is, and what you need to do to solve it?

Ask yourself that. If you haven't even started, and you're already fucked, why in the fuck would you want to double down on your fuckup? The best advice for you is to thank her for finding all your weaknesses, wish her well, and promise to 'never fuck up like this with the next one'

The advice you may actually implement? Dread isn't about 'winning back your wife/fiance' it's about unfucking yourself. Just go through the same steps as everyone else. If you're lucky, you'll come to your senses before you do something stupid.

Also, no one cares about your pity party. We all have ours, if you want to be 'heard' or empathized with, hire a shrink, they are paid to pretend to care.

Post Information
Title Clever girl, I wasn't paying attention
Author Rian_Stone
Upvotes 25
Comments 39
Date 06 October 2017 05:18 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Original Link
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[–]donedreadpirateRed Beret19 points20 points  (2 children) | Copy

If you made your way here as an engaged man, that is the biggest red flag of them all.

[–]RPAlternate42Red Beret2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy


This is up there with: "Things are great... except" or: "She's perfect... but."

If you are lying about her from the get go, and deluding yourself at the same time, something's amiss.

I've never seen anyone say: "she has a few faults that are human and easy to ignore."

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

If you are lying about her from the get go

Then it would be fair to say that the real problem is him.

[–]creating_my_life6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

If you can't handle a bitch when you can literally walk away, how you gonna handle one when you can't?

Truth right here.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (18 children) | Copy

No doubt there are more "about to be" married (ATBM) on the sub lately. Some of them are deeper in shitty situations than the already married here.

I am still amazed that the ATBM's have so much trouble with the "walk away" advice. Maybe the ATBM's are even more deeply imbedded with a fem-centric view. There is no doubt, that they view things differently and often react badly to the locker room, and, at the same time, reject good advice.

[–]donedreadpirateRed Beret6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

I would have been one of them if I had found the place when I was engaged. It's weakness. "Their" woman is their barrier to rejection, their prized possession, their ego.

[–]JDRoedellRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is it. The “why.”

[–]DanceMonkeeDanceRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Truth here.

"But, but, but.... it's my pedestal and she looks so pretty on it, where everyone can appreciate her. "

[–]SorcererKingMod / Red Beret5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

Scarcity mentality, low self-esteem. Identity then gets built around it. If they show up here as ATBM with problems, we're likely already too late.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Good catch btw. Guys are like bitches sometimes. Slack off for a minute, they take full advantage.

[–]Red-Curious2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy

The ATBM crowd is still in the emotional honeymoon phase. Remember how it was when you were dating your wife? It's like being on a high. A few months after marriage (2 years on the long end for some couples) and those emotions die down and reality sets in. So, for the already-married, we're not clouded by that emotional voodoo. For the ATBMs, they're not able to think straight. They think these feelings will last forever as long as they're with the person and don't realize that emotional re-stabilization is inevitable and will approach a lot faster than they expect.

[–]DanceMonkeeDanceRed Beret6 points7 points  (6 children) | Copy

They think these feelings will last forever

They think the blowjobs will, too. That's why they are confused. Not a fair fight.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

They think the blowjobs will, too

It is hard for the ATBM's to realize that she is hard wired in her lizard brain, to attract him with everything at her disposal. Also hard wired to create her better beta as time goes by.

[–]weakandsensitive5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy

funniest shit i ever seen - and it makes perfect sense.

girl falls in love with guy. guy is independent, engaged, charismatic, has hobbies etc. guy gets married - somehow manages goes and throw away every single aspect of why girl fell in love in the first place. guy wonders why girl doesn't love him like she used to.

so the advice i give to guys who do make the decision to get married is real simple - "marriage isn't about changing. it's about augmenting."

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yes, if most guys could stay in their own frame, and keep doing what attracted her. I keep seeing guys with the idea that they can just be themselves, and that is a comfort seeking, unexciting, schlub; exactly what she didn't want to marry.

Even worse, the "brilliant" woman thinks that she wants a schlub, until she gets it and the juices turn off. IMO Women are truly the worst at knowing what they want, built in.

[–]DanceMonkeeDanceRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

marriage isn't about changing. it's about augmenting.

For her, it is about the transformation from a you and a her into an us. The culture and all of the trappings of the engagement and wedding work to support this idea.

She will be attracted to you as a masculine man, but never to you as a part of an us.

OMG. I think I may have internalized The Way of the Superior Man.

[–]Red-Curious3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Women mistakenly assume (1) that looks are the only thing that makes a man sexually attractive to them, and (2) that increasing beta comfort traits in a man won't impact his looks and won't affect her sexual feelings toward him. To them, adding beta to an attractive man is a means of fixing his weaknesses without negating his strengths.

In reality, they don't understand what makes certain men sexually attractive to them, and culture tells them it's all looks and nothing else. They also don't realize how adding beta affects everything else.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

By taking control of the relationship using sexual denial and social and emotional manipulation.

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

It is a massive amount of dopamine and bonding chemicals going on. You have to realize that, but even then - it's tough. There's probably also some "AWALT but mine - she's special."

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

One of the vet's here once called it "new relationship". Agree, it's a real thing that is hard to reason with all those hormones and emotions that flow. Been there.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

The atbms are getting laid like tile and cannot even conceive of what happens when she locks you down. Hopefully they read some db FR's and learn but few will take action to protect themselves because are high on nawalt and unicorn farts.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

The unicorn says "here have some ice cream and let's watch a movie". "I like a man that isn't too skinny" "Big muscles are a turn off"

She can be great for years, then, over time, you let yourself go into her frame, and your bedroom goes deadroom.

But it really was my own fault, I "believed".

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

First and foremost, I'm aware I've been asked not to comment on this sub. The reason behind this is that I believe the advice that "marriage is never the answer," is shortsighted. Let me explain why, in very specific circumstances, marriage provides you with more protection than cohabitation with an LTR.

There is always the issue of children. When children are born in wedlock, they are presumed to be the biological child of the married couple. The husband is automatically listed as the father on the birth certification. In a situation where you are not married, it is within full discretion of the mother whether or not you are listed on the birth certificate. At the hospital, they do not care what you have to say. They do not care if you insist that you are the biological father of the child.

If your name is not placed on the birth certificate, you must petition for paternity. This includes taking a DNA test, hiring a DNA expert to interpret those results for the court, and showing evidence that you are physically, emotionally, and financially supporting the mother. Additionally, there are situations where even if you are residing together, the court will require orders regarding legal custody, physical custody and visitation, and child support. This is because courts do not see unmarried parents as stable.

Next, there are plenty of remedies for recovery of unmarried cohabitants. In order to receive benefits, many employers require non-married couples to enter into domestic partnership agreements or cohabitation agreements. The agreements typically obligates each of the parties to provide support for the other party and provides, in the event of the termination of the relationship, for a substantially equal division of any property acquired during the relationship. This is particularly important if you are a non-married couple and one party decides to stay home or becomes unemployed for any length of time.

In addition to domestic partnership or cohabitation agreements, there are also express contracts, implied contracts, joint ventures or partnerships, the theory of quantum meruit, unjust enrichment, constructive trusts, resulting trust, and promissory estoppel. I'm sure a more inventive attorney would be able to think of additional methods of recovery, but these are methods that I know have already started to have some success.

Courts are eager to recognize these forms of recovery at an increasing rate due to a higher number of couples who engage in cohabitation and LTRs instead of marriage. Many of these forms of recovery began to gain popularity through same sex couples, but are now being applied more broadly.

There are also states that still recognize common law marriage: Alabama, Colorado, DC, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas and Utah. To have a common law marriage you need 4 things: capacity, intent, holding out, and cohabitation. States have their own precedent on what factors they look at and I believe some still have a number of years requirement. If you live in one of these states, it may be more beneficial for you to sign a prenup and marry, rather than risk creating a common law marriage with out any protection. Simply imploring men to move out of these states is ridiculous. Intent is notoriously hard to prove, and holding out can simply be failing to correct someone when they refer to your LTR by your last name or having a hotel register you as Mr & Mrs. so and so (though generally Courts try to look at official documents like tax returns, health insurance registration, etc.)

From a legal standpoint, there is risk in everything that we do. Take a torts class, and try to observe the world in a normal way again, it is impossible. But, the goal of warning men not to get married comes from a place of risk management. "Get married and she is just going to take all your things." "Get married and it will be impossible to leave without getting divorced raped." "Get married but know that there's a 50% change your marriage will end in divorce."

Plenty of marriages end without divorce rape, but those aren't interesting enough to talk about. While 50% of marriages end in divorce, the chance of each individual marriage ending in divorce is not 50%. Having a college education, having parents who are still married and in a healthy relationship, premarital counseling, attending religious services, etc. all lower your risk of divorce. If you've managed to find a partner with few or no red flags, then your chance of divorce will likely be much lower.

The issue is that many men who get married lack OI and suffer from oneitis. They are getting married for emotional reasons, and not because it offers them more protection than cohabitation or a LTR. But, when the relationship has been RP from the beginning, both partners are low risk, and the man is able to maintain OI and has abundance mentality, and marriage offers sufficient protection, then a marriage contract (and that prenuptial agreement you signed) are just like any other contract.

In my case, it helps substantially that this is how my FW views marriage. She views it as a contract, and as such realizes the importance of taking precautions for the breach of that contract. We will each be signing separate prenuptial agreements, which in our case, offers us significantly more protection that if we were to live together for an extended period of time without any sort of cohabitation agreement and then break up. The terms of our contracts will stay in place, while the availability of alternative methods of recovery will only grow and solidify.

Could we simply draft a cohabitation agreement that would cover these same issues? Sure, but only to a point. You can have legal documents that provide you with nearly all of the benefits of marriage, and we both realize that. But, those don't always hold up in court either, at least not at the same rate that having those powers as a married couple does. I'm not some special snowflake, and neither is my wife. I don't think this exception applies only to us, which is why we have both sought independent counsel on the issue. I trust the advice I've received from people I I know much more than I trust and respect the advice I received on my previous thread.

TL;DR Marriage is a contract. A particularly risky contract, but a contract nonetheless. I view taking calculated risk as a necessary part of success, and that is the manner in which I've decided to approach marriage.

[–]SorcererKingMod / Red Beret4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

You miss the broader point. The reason to not get married is that marriage laws are unjust to men. Why should anyone willingly put himself in that position?

For you, perhaps, we need to expand the maxim to say "Don't get married, be aware of common-law marriage rules, avoid promissory estoppel, etc."

Or maybe I should have just said: "Shut the fuck up, Donny! You're out of your element!"

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I believe in adaptation over refusal to participate. Just because marriage laws are unfair to men as a group, does not mean they are always unfair on an individual level.

I have to live with my decision to marry. Just me and me alone, not anyone else on this sub. I found TRP/MRP at a time when my relationship was (still is) happy and high functioning, and the tools I've learned have been invaluable. I simply disagree with the stance that an interest in marriage precludes someone from participating in and learning from this sub.

[–]SorcererKingMod / Red Beret3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I have to live with my decision to marry. Just me and me alone, not anyone else on this sub.

True for all of us. But that doesn't mean the rest of us should just nod our heads and say, "Yep, he wants to so it's ok." It's still a stupid idea, whether you are comfortable with it or not.

[–]simbarlionRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Hypothetical q:

What about the beta punching above his weight. We all know how it turns out but try telling little Jimmy to next the unicorn.

[–]SimilarSalvation0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

First off:

  • divorced the ex 12 years ago.
  • in a LTR of 10 years now, not married;
  • 1 daughter with LTR.
  • Not living in USA but in Europe.


I don't quite understand the don't get married advice. It's not that I want to get married, or that I am dead against it. I just fail to see why we advice to don't get married. Maybe it's a cultural difference?


I am in a LTR of 10 years. We bought a car, a house and a child (Dutch idiom) together. We both work fulltime and pay the bills with the common money. How is this not the same from being married to her in everything but the official paper?

What if we were to split up? We still had to sell the house, work out visiting rights and custody of our child(ren) and (probably) I would have to pay child support.. [custody almost always goes to the woman, here]. Again, how is this different from being married?

Maybe, because the divorce from my ex-wife was in mutual consultation, and because of that, there were no lawyers, no court and no hearing, I have a somewhat different experience of getting divorced? But I really fail to see the difference between a LTR and a marriage, except from the loaded term?


Disclaimer: this is NOT a question pro-marriage. I am not saying: I fail to see the difference and therefor you should get married. I am looking for more information, more understanding of this key-concept of MRP (which, is kind of ironic: Married Red Pill gives advice not to get married).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

So why didn't you marry her then?

[–]SimilarSalvation0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

So why didn't you marry her then?

I fail to see why that is relevant to my question. But if you really want to know: debts, ego and what I wrote above...

I will admit I toyed (and sometimes still do) with the idea of getting married again to my LTR. But because my divorce left me with a huge debt (I was renovating the house and was just done with the demolition fase when she left me, so had to undersell the house) I simply did not have the money to remarry.

Second: I didn't want to re-marry (when my debts were paid off) because of my ego. I didn't want to "look stupid" walking down the aisle, giving a big party and reclaim my "undying love forever until death do us part" because I experienced first off how undying love can be...

Now I just ask myself: what is the difference between living together, paying off a house and raising children; I can name only one: the little piece of paper.

But that last argument can be used both ways and as such is no real reason not to get married either. Hence my question:

I just fail to see why we advice to don't get married.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Just like you said. Legal and financial deterrents

[–]zayelion0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Which vary country to country, which is why he doesnt understand.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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