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Frame: not losing is almost as good as winning

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September 21, 2017
8 upvotes

I believe that I am finally beginning to internalize the concept of frame. I think that when you first come across this topic it seems obvious, but the sense of simplicity may be prohibitive of subtle understanding. that is what happened to me at least - I first came across the concept months ago, thought ya, ya, I get it. now I am starting to understand that frame control is the very root of everything.

for example, when you become mad or upset at something, you have lost frame. if your SO gives you a shit test to provoke you, and you get pissed off, then you have lost frame. Similarly, if something happens at work to piss you off - not necessarily another person's actionsbut even an occurrence that needs attention so that you now need to work 4 hours longer than planned - you have lost frame. this means that the only way to maintain frame is to maintain honest to God outcome independence.

I have been benefiting through making my entire day an exercise in frame awareness. a rival at work tries to rial me - did I get rialled? maybe for a second, but then I realized that I was losing frame control and I said fuck it. do I have to push back to them to maintain my territory and the respect of other peirs? no I do not. I do not even have to acknowledge that they said anything.

however, if you can take an attack on your frame, and turn it around to now place your rival or SO at a disadvantage, than you have won the best victory of all. making no expression and giving the most purfuctory response with minimal information - just enough to prevent onlookers from thinking you are autistic - is a very close second best outcome. to weather an attack without diminishment is a victory. to be attacked consistently, and to weather all attacks without diminishment is a successful campaign.

currently, I am really turning my marriage around, refusing to be manipulated, and doing things for my own reasons and motives. this is leading my SO to assault my frame CONSTANTLY. I am doing my damndest to suffer onslaught without diminishment and it is winning! I would love to always have a snappy retort. I would love to never over think things. as it is, I am successfully not overplaying my hand. period. she can kick up a storm and leave - but she won't. simple fact is I will not be manipulated. I have lost sex over this process the last three days and may lose more until she realizes that I am unassailable. she keeps doing more and more things to piss me off, like calling me, asking a dumb question, and then acting pissed off at the answer and hanging up. well guess what Chica, I'm onto you and I don't care. you can leave if you want - but you wont- but I will not be brought to concern over nonsense.

bottom line, frame awareness makes your life rich. not losing is almost as good as winning.


Post Information
Title Frame: not losing is almost as good as winning
Author savoyshopper
Upvotes 8
Comments 20
Date 21 September 2017 04:41 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/205406
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/71gv57/frame_not_losing_is_almost_as_good_as_winning/
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Comments

[–]SteelToeShitKickerRed Beret8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

I would love to always have a snappy retort.

This isn't something reasonable to expect, we aren't a bunch of quippy bitches on Gilmore Girls. Sometimes keeping quiet and not giving in is plenty good enough.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

when you become mad or upset at something, you have lost frame.

Not precisely. It is when SOMEBODY ELSE manages to make you mad or upset that you have lost frame to the person who made you upset. If you make yourself mad or you are righteously angry and raising Hell AND if that is YOUR frame then getting angry was not a loss of frame.

I thinks this is a subtle but very important distinction.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

well I think that circumstances leading us to lose self control is impactful of the same thing within us as when it is people doing it. the treatment is also the same. staying calm, understanding your interests in the circumstance, controlling what you can control, and making the best decision available.

[–]bogeyd6Mod / Red Militia1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Thanks for bringing up the fundamentals. Shutting your mouth is always the first step for men because you have to stop losing at the shit tests. You don't have to be winning at first. The goal is to stop the downward spiral you've been in for however long. I don't always have quippy replies and I am not the greatest A&A artist in the world. A&A is going to get you the most bang for your buck once you get the hang of it. My greatest downfall the past year has been my willingness to nuke everything test she gives me.

For example, in the battle of frames, I signed up at a new gym and she wanted to sign up to. The whole car ride home was bitching about the schedule, asking me stupid things like "before or after dinner" and then getting pissed when I can't give the right answer. The protip is, there is no right answer. I shittily tell her to stop and quit talking about it. NO shit, she replies to me. You won't talk to me that way. Then we sit in silence the rest of the ride home.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

so if you give an intentional silence to her you are in her frame (to an extent). if you feel blotted out then you are in her frame (to an extent). if you get pissed off and tell her to chill out this is your thing and then you feel (keyword 'feel') like you now have to pay the piper for exciting her, you are in her frame (to an extent).

I think speaking truth that you can't possibly feel sorry about keeps you free. just say "I love you. how about (fill in the blank) for dinner tonight?"

just end the situation. if you are getting upset, acting reluctantly because you know she will push back, or having a conversation that you don't want to have - then your frame has slipped.

it's ok if your frame slips. frame awareness is being able to recognize when your frame has slipped then being able to get back to baseline control of yourself.

no matter how deep you are, it is the fallacy of sunk costs to pursue resolution of a situation through broken frame. retreat. refresh. try again.

[–]fuckmrpRed Beret1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy

My concept of frame comes mostly from fighting sports but may have some value for you. I was going to make a post about this but fuck it...

Emotions are not the problem. Allowing the emotion to take over your mental state is the problem. The expectation that you will never become angry, afraid or insulted is not realistic. But learning to acknowledge these feelings while not mentally participating in them is possible.

Frame is not the resistance of emotion, it's not employing silence to avoid conflict. Frame can not come from OI because sometimes you must care. Frame is your self-perception. Building frame is a process of belief forged through experience.

Thanks to Cus D'amato, Mike Tyson had one of the most viscous frames in all of boxing history. In the ring he had no emotions. But this man certainly feels emotion...

Mike Tyson on Frame

Frame and Breaking other fighter's frame

Obviously these are extremes but the concepts remain the same.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

Wow great interviews. You bring up some points that I want to address.

(1) Tyson says that he imagines himself a certain way which allows him to be more than he really is. However, frame is not necessarily imagined. All I want is a deep rooted awareness of what I am, what I am capable of, what my goals are and what I need to do to achieve them. Tyson seems to imply a purposeful self-engradizing self-deception - but really it is more an ability to summon a profound reality rooted in the deepest most buried possibilities of reality, rarely accessed by men, but existing for those who wish it enough to summon them. He summoned a reality up from within. So that is powerful frame that he knew was there and nobody told him about or led him to see it. Boxing is his artform, and it served as a vehicle to find and cultivate this powerful frame.

(2) The other thing that I thought of when you said you think of it in terms of combat sports - is that it may be useful to explore the concept of frame as a paradigm like of a fighters skills and techniques. If you are going to engage with an adversary, you need to keep your guard up, know how to deflect a jab, block a cross, how to bob and weave, and what to do when the fight reaches the ground - but there is something far more simpler in understanding the foundation of frame, that makes me think more of in the Matrix where nemo finally gets it and effortlessly pulls bullets out of the air. If you don't fight, you don't have to constantly react. You don't have to worry about timing up the next deflection. However, when you go on the attack, you need to have trained and studied your moves - A and A, AM, fogging, sexual innuendos, etc.. all moves. In my original post I am talking about the awareness that you don't have to fight. you don't have to block. your guard can be not engaging at all - and you can't lose if you don't fight. This idea needs more analysis. Not sure that I like it.

[–]fuckmrpRed Beret0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

  1. Theres a level of fake it until you make it but without the experience to back it up, its self deception. In the ring Tyson belived he was unstoppable, his victories confirmed it. Its a cyclical process.

  2. Frame is easier to maintain when you have little if anything to lose, no reason to fight. Frame is much harded to maintain during conflict, even hard during violence. My point is not about defending yourself. If you can hold frame while being punched in the face, arguments mean nothing.

you can’t lose if you don’t fight

This only hold true in certain situations. Frame should be developed for all situations.

[–]fuckmrpRed Beret0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

I’m not suggesting get punched in the face although I find it has therapeutic benefits in both directions. Im saying a large part of frame is about learning to be comfortable being uncomfortable.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

yes. I agree with all you say. the Tyson interview led my mind to wander however. specific cultures all have memes and mortays unique to them. on a macro level, our frame exists within the frame of our culture. there are two unique aspects of frame. one is the content, one is the quality of it being personal, I'll elaborate:

(1) personal frame: your ability to withstand (albeit flexibly and like you say taking uncomfortable, quickly processing it, and remaining on your own terms.)

(2) content: if you are Judeao Christian, your frame includes the cultural perspectives you were raised with. or whatever your upbringing. what Tyson does, and all great artists do, is cultivate an idea within themselves, building new content, or channeling content familiar to them on some level.

[–]fuckmrpRed Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

IMO stripping away the cultural bullshit is part of developing frame. You can not have solid frame if you’re operating inside someone elses construct. Religion/culture are forms of control.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

that's not possible really. you notice Tyson brings up Alexander the great and Ghengus Khan. his ideas of greatness are from models he has been exposed to. if you act independently from your culture entirely you are a crazy person. we say for dread wear nice clothes, smell nice, comb your hair. that's all cultural as well.

I think reject the expectations of marketers and advertisements, understand that news and politics is what so.eone else wants you to believe. don't take people's assurances at face value etc... that's more the personal and not the cultural.

[–]fuckmrpRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Religion and culture is also what someone else wants you to believe.

In regards to being crazy, thats other people’s judgement of your actions. Guess whos frame?

Im not interested in a debate, you do you but I’ll leave you with this.

When I think of breaking frame I think of death of loved ones, extreme violence, torture, extremes with which I have little idea how I would react.

Over and out, I’m done with this one bro.

[–]youcantdenythat0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

So what's your long term plan?

She is upset and if you do nothing but let her fester she will continue to change tactics until she finds one that works.

Good on you for getting the basics down, but don't think what you're doing is enough. Managing your own frame is step 1, but at some point you're going to have to manage her's as well.

Right now, as captain, you may be weathering the storm but at some point you will need to turn things into a positive direction... away from that storm.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

so last night the shit tests started to be dialled down and there were signals that she wanted me to instigate sex - but she wasn't going to close the gap that I've created. what I did was asked her about the various aspects of her and the kids day that I hadn't been briefed on, and i solved several problems through discussion. i ignored the shit tests. I drew up a meal plan for the next week and a half and engaged her to provide input. two nights ago we were at a thing with other couples at church and she asked me to refill her water bottle. i said no this is too interesting. she was shocked and went to fill it herself. tonight I will fuck her extremely well and I think that will be pretty close to taking me to total frame control. then I just keep guard and see what evolves.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Rightful anger isnt losing frame. Frame is your reality

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

like a Jesus in the temple with all the vendors kind of thing. I agree.. but that is rare form, and also you still need to maintain frame while expressing rightful anger. rightful anger and loose frame is a slippery slope of unclear thinking. I guess I could qualify what I am referencing as emotional anger. sometimes justified, but also potentially destabilizing.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

it's a common misunderstanding.

If I get sucked into defending my whereabouts to wife because I took 30 extra minutes at the gym and getting gas and I raise voice and express anger , then yes, I lost frame. Not because I was angry or showed anger but because she was able to cause the emotional reaction.

If wifey enrolled junior in an expensive, time consuming math prep class that I told her was a waste of time and I raise voice and express anger its not a loss of frame because the source of my anger was my boundry/respect being violated.

In one case, she could affect me. In the other, it was my own expressed wishes not being met that provoked the anger

Case 1....she made me leave my reality for hers.

Case 2. we live in my reality the whole time.

It's not about the anger. it's more about the fact that a strong man is in control if his emotions. Not that he doesn't have emotions, but he controls them

Women, children and feminized men are controlled by their emos

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

No, winning is as good as winning.

I see aspects of being a captain in this post, but I also see aspects of butthurt (and lack of capitalization). Perhaps you need to consider that being a captain of yourself and your marriage is not always you vs. her. I see no comfort here nor do I see fun. I just see butthurt in this post.

If your frame is you vs. her, there is no winning there.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

you penetrate to an extent. i am in process of rebuilding myself and my marriage. I find that I keep over playing and over reacting, so my exercise is to build basic level frame right now, and throw the ability to make sexualized retorts, AM, all that stuff when she stops trying to buck simple fogging and my acting self interested and not maluable as she is accustomed to

further i do over emphasize the me vs her but that was to draw a binary picture of frame control for simplicity. i dont mean to say maintaining frame in relation to her actions is the the sole focus, because then that wouldn't be my frame at all. my concept will evolve to be fun and fulfilling. this is the baseline that things evolve from. I will write something more detailed later in the week after better synthesizing my thoughts.



You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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