*5 Love Langues* v./and (?) NMMNG

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June 28, 2017

Sorry to those who might think I'm commenting too much. I'm an extrovert ... I can't just lurk for 3 months while reading sidebar. Rest assured, I am reading sidebar. Finished NMMNG in 2 days, will digest and review for a couple more days, then move on to WISNIFG, which I understand will take much longer.

That said, hopefully this is a less-often asked question (if it's ever been asked at all), so it can give you something new to chat about rather than the same old garbage.

In my circles, The 5 Love Languages is easily the most quoted and recommended book for married couples, regardless of whether they're having problems or not.

After reading NMMNG and lots of stuff on this sub, I'm starting to see a different side to things. Nothing is totally incompatible, but if you made a Venn diagram, the overlap is a lot narrower than I would have expected.

For example: 5LL peddles the idea that we should find our partner's love language and cater to them, even if it is not natural or desirable for us to do so because that's what's going to fill them up to give love back.

That's great, NMMNG also talks about giving out of abundance and not emptiness, so it's good to be filling each other's tank that way. But at the same time, 5LL makes no effort to encourage or even suggest that owning and adopting someone else's love language is necessary.

As a result, virtually every church-guy walks away telling his wife, "Physical touch is my primary love language" and virtually every church-girl who reads it walks away thinking, "Okay, I have to give obligation sex now because that's how I'm going to get him to do the dishes more often." I seem to recall Gary Chapman (5LL) does speak against doing things quid pro quo, but it's pretty much explicitly stated: "When you speak your spouse's love language, they will reciprocate."

Two huge problems with this:

  • First, 5LL is almost entirely premised on the concept of fortifying covert contracts. "If you love your wife the way she needs to receive love rather than the way you want to give it, then she will love you back the way you need also." NMMNG says to cut that crap out of your life. As a practical matter, I've found that 5LL doesn't work in that way and the "Nice Guy" in most church-going men simply conclude (as NMMNG also says), "It's because I wasn't trying hard enough. I just need to give her even more of her love language in order to get her to give back."

    • Pastors peddle this and bolster it like Jesus himself said it, but I'm not seeing that in the Bible anywhere, except in relation to God. But with God the contract is overt and explicitly stated (Matthew 6:33, Psalm 37:4, for example). When we try to treat what he has said overtly as something covert, it comes off as us trying to use the Bible to manipulate God, which is obviously plain wrong.
  • Acting out of obligation is not authentic, undesirable, and unattractive. I've read this over and over on this sub. "Do it because it's who you are; don't do it to make someone happy or because you have to - you don't have to do anything, and neither does she." If my wife followed the 5LL book to the T, we'd probably be having sex more often, but it would be crappy obligation sex. I've walked away from obligation sex dozens of time in our marriage because I hate it and it's unsatisfying.

What do you all think. Is 5LL compatible with RP thinking, or does it create a bunch of nice-guy, wife-catering pansies?

Post Information
Title *5 Love Langues* v./and (?) NMMNG
Author Red-Curious
Upvotes 10
Comments 50
Date 28 June 2017 06:16 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/205933
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/6k2gfh/5_love_langues_vand_nmmng/
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[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (9 children) | Copy

we should find our partner's love language and cater to them

I found this aspect of 5LL to be utter horseshit and I agree with your covert contractiness senses.

At one point back when I was in DB my wife and I did the questionnare etc. It was OK. But still had this aura of acting to please her how she demanded. So then I got to thinking about well maybe she just doesn't know her own love languages or maybe she's lying for whatever reason. Or maybe they change with her mood or whatever. So I started A/B testing them. Turned out they all work great in different situations. And really if the idea is to be generous you shouldn't care. And of course being predictable is ungood.

So overall verdict is I find it useful as list of ideas to brainstorm from to express appreciation and avoid getting stuck in ruts. Sometimes I pick the ones I'm least comfortable with as a personal challenge.

[–]paterfamilias785 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

I am 12 months into a successful re-build of myself and my marriage. Sidebar, lifting, etc. I've read all of these books referred to over the years. I totally agree with your identification of the flaws & covert contracts in 5LL, but there was one GREAT step forward that this book helped with:

5LL gets the woman thinking about sex in a different context. Instead of "Why does my husband want it too much?" the wife starts to think "Oh, this is a normal and healthy desire that men have." This is a good mental step for the wife to make, and it is usually received better coming from a popular book than from the husband.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

we should find our partner's love language and cater to them use the information like a boss to create a good, sex filled, positive marriage experience for both partners.


[–]sh0ckley0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Hahaha awesome.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Thanks! This is actually a helpful comment :)

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy

I forgot to mention the other big takeaway was that for my wife the quantity of appreciation is all that matters. It's very hard to overdo it if you're being genuine and not expecting anything. Our lives are so busy with the kids and what not that it's somewhat naturally rate-limited.

What happened was that as I was doing my testing trying to discover her magic LL, the hypothesis was that there was a magic LL to be found and that other LLs would be ineffective. So to avoid a bias, I would have to run twice as many displays of affection in order to fill the tank. At first I thought it was working. Her attitude and general outlook on life got much better and her old personality started to return. So when I found that there actually wasn't much of a difference between the 5LL, I got to thinking that maybe it had to do with the rate. Because logically since I'd concluded there wasn't a magic LL, all of them must be filling the tank and maybe I'd been overdoing it.

So I started to dial the frequency back. She noticed that fucking immediately and interpreted it as if she'd done something wrong to piss me off even though it wasn't intended that way. This is when I realized the sorts of eggshells she'd been on. The sorts of random things she'd come apologize for blew my mind.

At this point a rational person would probably conclude that it has to do with me being miscalibrated and far too stingy with my displays of appreciation and affection and my wife is accustomed to being on eggshells.

But not me. I was still angry and now I enjoyed having this sort of power over her.

Aha! This is what BPP's husband's dilemma talks about. I got a useful response--now I can measure the differences between your 5LL, bitch. I just have to test which ones are received as more severe punishments.

Also fruitless!

So I pondered it a bit and I realized I just have a crap baseline calibration of how much appreciation to dole out. Then I pondered it harder and thanked my mom for that. Then I pondered it even harder and realized I really should be thanking my dad.

[–]DanceMonkeeDanceRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Mrs. Monkee mentioned walking on eggshells earlier this week, as if I was about to lose my temper or something. I wasn't... rarely ever do. Was just in physical pain and busy. Made me question how we are both calibrated.

Your comment has given much food for thought. Thank you.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is very interesting and I feel like I only understand half of it :p I might have more questions for you after I take time to ponder.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It's very hard to overdo it if you're being genuine and not expecting anything.

solid advice.

[–]The_LitzRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Turned out they all work great in different situations.

Exactly this.

[–]alphabeta49Red Beret9 points10 points  (5 children) | Copy

If you're a recovering beta, and you come across 5LL, RUN.

My wife said this to me once, verbatim: "The reason I don't want to have sex with you is because you haven't been complimenting me much lately. My love tank is empty." In reality, I was being a whiny bitch even subscribing to this system.

No. I will never recommend 5LL to anyone except maybe hardened criminals and drug addicts who could stand to grasp the concepts of reciprocity and consequences a little more.

[–]Aaren_Augustine5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy

Ha! A while back I got why physical touch wasn't part of my wife's 5LL and Acts of Service was...

[–]Red-Curious[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Pardon my naivete, but can you elaborate? I'm guessing it's because she didn't care to be touched by a pansy beta, so getting you to serve her was the best she expected to be possible from the relationship, therefore she learned to make that her craving, suppressing actual physical desire. Is that about right, or were you implying something else? (Asking to take application in understanding my own patterns with a wife who has constantly rejected physical touch as one of her LLs).

[–]alphabeta49Red Beret4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Acts of Service turns into Chore Play reeeally fast.

[–]Aaren_Augustine3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

She didn't care to be touched by a pansy beta, well said. I exclaim only that, implying nothing else.

[–]gettingmymojobackRed Beret3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm glad I found this place first when I was looking for help. Beta me would have wasted his time with that shit.

[–]SgtSilverBack8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'd kind of enjoy my wife getting her hands on this now. Give me a chance to practice some AA.

Her:. My love language is acts of service

Me:. Ok, I'm gonna service that ass

Her: my love language is acts of touch

Me:. Ok I'm gonna touch that ass

Her:. my love language is affirmation

Me: Ok, I love how that plug fits in your ass.

And on and on. Other than that, fuck this book. Better yourself and her love language will be whatever you want it to be.

[–]Cobey3_163 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

My wife and I both read this book and took the test at the request of a therapist that I was seeing at the time (it wasn't supposed to be couples therapy, I went for individual stuff but she was brought in and it soon evolved into that.) It was about as worthwhile as the many many "talks" that were had.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

The 5 love languages works for Alpha DNGAF guys to tone it down. It does NOT work for Betas trying to Alpha up. The book gives TONS of ammunition to your wife to use against you and almost nothing for you to use. She doesn't need even more power in the relationship.

How it plays out most of the time is guys say my "love tank" is filled with sex and the girls immediately say "my love tank is filled with......." whatever she (thinks she) wants at the moment. The book ignores the known attraction cues in women and assumes an equalitarian, boys and girls are exactly the same paradigm.

It is not bad conceptually for a RP guy to read and might even "work" if the RP guy learns what REALLY fills her "love tank" rather than the recommended rub her feet and give her whatever she wants garbage that got us into this mess.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm thinking.

[–]bala-key4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

5LL is a steaming pile of horseshit.

It's transactional and overt. It combines the worst relationship ideas: choreplay, negotiated attraction and covert contracts.

Utter, utter garbage.

[–]The_LitzRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I read 5LL after taking the pill just to see what it was all about. On its own as a relationship rescue miracle it is the worst book ever, but as a comfort tool in your redpill toolbox it is actually good.

Just realise there isn't one specific language for your partner, they all work to give comfort, depending on the situation or need at the time.

Follow Cholomite's rule.

[–]ofthehighdesert1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I think you nailed it when you said that the books promotes a huge fucking covert contract. It is certainly what I walked away with when I read it years ago, and, not surprisingly, it did not make my marriage better. It is useful information in the sense of knowing what things you do communicate love, etc. But ultimately, it assumes way too much self awareness in women. My wife for example, would tell you that she is an acts of service person as her primary love language, followed by gift giving. I spent months buying shit for her and doing thoughtful things like leaving her notes or doing chores that she would have normally done and the pussy fairy did not visit more often.

After taking TRP more than a year ago, I have since learned much about my wife and the truth is, that when she read the book, she was probably thinking of all the things that I can do in reading the book that would make her life better. I have not experienced, in 17 years of marriage, any intentionality from my wife, to improve the marriage. If there was such intentionality, the formula would be simple, fuck me more and fight with me less. There is no need for a book on the topic. Women simply aren't capable of loving in that way. Fucking you and not being shitty to you has to be in her interests some how, even if only to bolster her own image of herself. For example, Fucking you when you are ripped makes her feel hot because she is fucking a hot guy, it's not because of any desire to make you happy. This is why I find it curious that women are never commanded in the bible to love their husbands, while men are commanded to love their wives. It's as if God is giving you a hint, that women aren't capable of loving you the way you love them. What they are commanded to do is submit to you, which they can do, but again, it has to be something you command from them in the same way that an alpha dog commands obedience from the pack.

So, overall, it seems that love languages can be a useful tool, but a RP understanding has to be in place first because knowing what women are is foundational.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

That makes prefect sense. Reading this and other comments, I have come to this conclusion:

5LL cultivates fuzzies, RP cultivates tingles.

Cholomite's rule takes it from there. My marriage has more than enough fuzzies already.

[–]cholomiteMod / BP Downvote Magnet4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy

Women only have one love language, tingles.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Almost. They also need warm fuzzies. The key is knowing what give them the tingles and what gives them the warm fuzzies- and what doesn't.

[–]cholomiteMod / BP Downvote Magnet4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

True. Tingles without fuzzies won't last. Fuzzies without tingles are worthless.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Now we have discovered

cholomite's law:

Tingles without Fuzzies won't last but Fuzzies without tingles are worthless.

[–]The_LitzRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Tingles without fuzzies won't last. Fuzzies without tingles are worthless

Perfectly summed up.

[–]TopOfTheEighth3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Vaginal, oral, anal, looking good and cooking like a motherfucker are my 5 love languages that I look for in a woman.

The love tank she needs to be filling is my stomach, and the love tanks she needs to be draining are my balls.

First, 5LL is almost entirely premised on the concept of fortifying covert contracts.

This observation shows me you're starting to get it. Good job.

[–]black_jack_davy2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy

5LL is almost entirely premised on the concept of fortifying covert contracts.

I think you've answered your question.

I haven't seen 5LL implemented in a way that makes me envy the marriage in question in any way.

This doesn't preclude weaponizing it against her, but that's a defect strategy and caps your potential gains from the situation. (I.e., use it to unearth her covert contracts.)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

What is the use of unearthing her covert contracts?

[–]black_jack_davy1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

Most people aren't high-agency enough to even notice when they are using covert contracts.

Are there benefits to being aware of when you are using a covert contract?

Does it improve your behavior when you identify them?

Would these benefits, if any, apply to a woman as well?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

I'm a recovering aspie when it comes to social awareness.

Yes. So I can kill them.

Yes. Because I stop using them.

I could point them out and the harm they do in a Socratic method style, but whether or not she does anything about it is up to her.

[–]black_jack_davy0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I'm thinking through this as I write it out.

I am not sure that pointing them out will be beneficial... perhaps more just you yourself being aware of them in her. Not to beta-cater or be passive-aggressive, but to understand why she's being bitchy. Like tracking Shark Week. (Also to nip passive-aggression in the bud.)

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

If you subscribe to Schnarch's relationship models in Intimacy&Desire, pointing them out is just stating the obvious. "Covert contracts" aren't nearly as covert to your partner as you think they are--and that's precisely the reason they don't work. Generally the gist of it is you're both trying to restore feeling like you did when you first met and are frustrated and angry at each other.

Evidence: the fact that you know your wife well enough to also be aware of her "covert" contracts and are even having this conversation.

[–]straius0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy


[–]BobbyPeru3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

... And they lived happily ever after

[–]RBuddDwyerRed Beret3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Read up on Dalrock's blog for more on the Churchian thing, since it sounds like that is what you are dealing with. As for the book, save yourself a lot of time. What you wife wants is the feelings she gets from the book, not what the advice in the book actually says to do. When she whines about crap like, "you don't communicate with me," it's never really about communication, it's about the way she wants you to make her feel, which can be accomplished other ways than what the book says.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is insightful. That was my first red pill mind blow a couple days ago: women don't care about men, only about how men make them feel. I think the properly calibrated and mature Christian woman can overcome this at a conscious level, but there will always be a subconscious internal struggle with this core principle.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

You are wasting your time with 5LL

Read the sidebar and build yourself into a man's man That means be the guy that can talk to anyone and doesn't take stuff from another too serious because you are comfortable with you

NMMNG is about something completely different than 5LL and truly, if you are masculine and live your life, 5LL is BS NMMG gets you to come to erms with the fact your hidden expectations of do something for others in return for what you want, (without telling them) is shit

[–]SexistFlyingPig2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

I followed 5LL. I did everything I was supposed to do, and my wife divorced me. I spent 2 years in utter confusion as to why, until I found TRP/MRP.

Now I follow RP. I'm much happier. When my girlfriend has a meltdown, I know why, and I know what I should do because of RP. (hint: talking about it won't help)

So, 5LL will let give you extra information, but it's not a prescription for how to behave, as a man.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

Makes sense. I lived the 5LL life for a while too and never got anywhere with it.

I concluded that 5LL cultivates contentment, but not attraction or desire.

[–]SexistFlyingPig0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

5LL would be great if the problem that you were trying to solve was communication.

The problem isn't communication. It's lack of desire. It's covert contracts that stem from a lack of desire. It's a woman who doesn't want to leave the stability of her marriage, but doesn't feel attracted to her husband anymore. That gets fixed with lifting and taking care of your shit. That's what speaks to her lizard brain, where desire lives.

[–]All_Ads_Deceive1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

If you're a Christian trying to be RP then stick to the Bible and ignore this phaggot shit.

The Bible is pretty clear how men should act and it's not this blue pill Christ cuck shit

[–]innominating0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Why is it plain wrong to manipulate god?

[–]wisi_eu0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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