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RP and religion ...?

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June 26, 2017
7 upvotes

CONTEXT

My wife and I are Christian. For the most part, I don't see much conflict between TRP/MRP with our faith. If anything, it's a return to how God set things up in the first place. It's important to note that due to our faith, divorce is not an option (not that either of us are contemplating this).

TRP/MRP EXPOSURE

Today is the first day I've discovered this sub and its related subs. Honestly, my faith was the inspiration for the changes before coming here (explained more below) - this, if anything, just seems to be a community of people with similar goals, even if we have different motivations for getting there. That said, due to being off work for a few days for the new baby, I've had the time to read several of the top posts, most of the current posts on the main subs, and familiarize myself with which books need to be read and their essential message.

MY STRUGGLE

During our dating years and early marriage (i.e. 2006-2012) I was pretty alpha and she loved it, but sex had always been an issue for us, even during that time (noting that we waited until marriage). Although I would initiate frequently, she often refrained: "My parents taught me two things about sex: (1) it's bad before marriage and (2) it hurts a lot. So, sorry if I'm frigid, but it's been ingrained in me for so long that I don't know how else to be." (EDIT: I should probably note that she has no difficulty finishing; I'm primarily aroused by the female orgasm, so we've only had sex 2-3 times in our marriage where she hasn't finished - a fact that I fully believe she would not lie about ... but she's never been willing to try for multiples).

For a long time I became very frustrated, leading into several arguments and ultimately a 19-month stretch without us having sex at all (8/14-2/16 ... to be fair, she was pregnant for some of that time). I pretty much gave up, losing all interest. As a result, after about the first 12 months of that (i.e. by 8/15) I handed the reigns over to her and I became a beta. So, she made most of the major family decisions, I stopped initiating sex altogether (I had continued trying to initiate during that first year), I let her be the primary parent in raising the kids, taking care of the house, etc.

PROGRESS

During that dry-patch I learned to become outcome-independent. In essence, I stopped relying on my wife to validate me through sex and began to realize that I didn't need anything other than God and to be the man he created me to be. Although the definition might be slightly off, I think my attitude was about as close to "OI" as a Christian can/should get. I started pursuing my own passions, independent of whatever her plans may have been, and I refused to back down on the direction I was going, although she still ran the show at the house. I also cut off porn and other harmful addictions (food, video games) around the same time (late 2014). I developed new ways of communicating through arguments that did not depend on "winning" or persuading her of my way or just always giving in to her way.

CURRENT

As a result of my changed direction, from mid-2016 to the present all major/heated arguments stopped, but there was still an unspoken dissatisfaction in the relationship until about 2/17 when I started getting my crap together. I lost 35lbs through a combination of dieting and frequent trips to the gym and am in good shape now. I became more decisive, taking ownership of responsibilities around the house (particularly including raising the kids), and not deferring to my wife on major life decisions (ex. job changes, new car, home remodeling, etc.). I make a good living (low end of 6-figures), and my wife is on par with me in her job. We now have 4 beautiful kids ages 5, 3, 2, and 5 days.

We've had sex a few times (5-6) in the past 12 months, up until she became too pregnant for it to be comfortable (about 3 months ago), at which point we mutually agreed to stop, which will last until after her 6-week recovery from the c-section. When we were having sex, I've tried changing from the normal routine, but as soon as I try to do anything different she either tries to revert back to her comfort zone or just cut things off entirely. Part of me still wants to stay in "screw it, I don't need sex" mode, but another part says that it would be a good idea to re-awaken that desire in me and try to develop a healthy sex life in our marriage. If I take the first option, sex will almost assuredly be a 3-4 times a year thing.


QUESTIONS

  1. A lot of TRP/MRP thinking about sex boils down to this: be a man/leader and she'll be attracted to you. I'm in and started that process before even finding this place. But what if her hang-ups about sex have nothing to do with me in the first place?
  • I get the impression that the typical answer here is, "Get out of the marriage and find someone else." That's not an option I will ever take (nor will she). So, is the only alternative just to learn to not give a crap and go on living with a crappy sex-life (which I feel is where I'm at right now)?
  1. How successful have others been in stretching clearly communicated boundaries in sex (ex. "I will never do ___") through TRP/MRP practices within the context of a pre-TRP/MRP marriage? For example, BJs are off the table. I also tried to go down on her once and she cut things off on the spot, insisting I never do that again. Is this something where I should just give up and move on or does your version of "being a man" mean setting a goal and making it a reality, no matter how much opposition you face along the way/never giving up even if the goal is highly improbable?

  2. I keep reading that the captain has to have a vision. What if my vision for life has to do with helping other people and it doesn't matter whether crap gets done around the house in order to fulfill that vision (or that my standard of what does need to get done in order to live out my vision is much lower than the standard my wife expects re: her life goals/vision)? The result is that I'm doing what I'm passionate about in life in my personal time (after 4 years, I've finally struck gold), frequently asking her to join along, but it doesn't address the things she wants me to be passionate about/have a vision for. I've long since accepted this as a fact of life and moved on, but is this the right conclusion or just me being callous?

  • Most posts here just assume that the vision centers around improvement of your own living circumstances. I don't give a crap about my own life circumstances beyond a relatively low threshold, so I feel like most of the posts/comments I've been reading don't apply because they innately assume that setting a vision and working toward it will include home remodeling, doing dishes, getting a nicer car, taking better vacations, etc.
  1. Despite the fact that my passion in life has nothing to do with taking care of the home, I've taken ownership of our house and family anyway. It's exhausting, but Philippians 2:14 says, "Do everything without complaining or arguing," so that's what I do. I don't mention it to her, but she has let me know a couple times that she's noticed. Great/whatever (I only mention it to say this isn't likely a factor in the sex-related issues). Between that, developing solid eating/exercising habits, and an OI attitude ... what's next? Or is it just mastering the basics and learning how to make the past few months something sustainable for life?

EDIT: I should note, as this has come up a couple times: my house is not a pig sty. It's about what you'd expect from a family that grosses a quarter mil a year, and we hired a cleaning lady to come every other week. I have remodeled one of our bathrooms, redone our kitchen flooring, refinished our deck, painted rooms, hung shelves, etc. The problem isn't that I don't do stuff, it's that getting it done doesn't matter to me or my vision for life. But I suck it up and do it anyway, no complaining or boasting.


Post Information
Title RP and religion ...?
Author Red-Curious
Upvotes 7
Comments 94
Date 26 June 2017 07:09 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/205946
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/6jjldo/rp_and_religion/
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[–]SeamusAwl11 points12 points  (13 children) | Copy

Do you even read the bible bro?

Seriously. You dont want to do anything around the house because it isnt your "mission in life"? Do you not know that you are the one responsible for the state of your house? Not your wife. If you are fine with it going to pot, then dont expect your wife to do the work instead. She was created to be your helper not your slave. We use the captain - first mate scenario here as its easy to understand. But it essentially is the same thing. You being the head of the family means every aspect is on you. Finances, food, upkeep of the house, cleanliness, health, etc. as for oral sex, its all in Song of Solomon so why its off the table shouldnt be "religious".

Read the sidebar. Specifically read up on Dalrocks blog. And divorce should never be off the table. Even Jesus said divorce is acceptable for infidelity reasons. Guess what, denying someone sex is a form of infidelity (per Paul as dalrock will explain). Basically, marriage is when a man and woman become one flesh. They do that through sex. No sex means they are not one flesh.

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret5 points6 points  (9 children) | Copy

1 Corinthians 7:1-5

Preach.

I'm convinced that the Church, in order to maintain numbers, has gone completely gynocentric in all matter domestic to placate the ladies sitting in the first three rows on Sunday.

[–]SeamusAwl3 points4 points  (8 children) | Copy

When men dont show up to Church, they preach to those in attendance. Further ensuring men dont show up to church.

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy

Yet somehow the wives have money to tithe. Another sign of shit not owned.

[–]SeamusAwl0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

Is it any wonder some of those wives end up cheating on their husbands with pastors and small group/bible study leaders?

[–]InChargeManRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Is that what bible thumping means? Make so much more sense now...

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

All of the mystery, social proof, and respect, without the promise of commitment.

Where have I seen that discussed?

[–]C-grij0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is definitely true. Noticed this first hand at one I used to attend.

When this is brought up though, the response I generally get is that we just need to 'man up' and shift all the blame to the men.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Religion

I agree with the "one flesh = sex" reading of the Bible. During my early beta days, my wife and I used to argue about that. When we'd fight she insisted that I sleep in the same bed as her because sleeping in the same bed is a "symbol of commitment in the marriage." I explained, "No, the Bible is pretty clear: sex is the symbol and seal of a marriage. Why should I buy into your personally created symbol when you won't accept the God-given one?" I haven't brought this argument up in years, though, nor do I intend to try to rehash all that. That would just be giving her more power, making her think it still gets to me.

To that end, yes I do know the Bible inside and out ... to the degree that even my pastor acknowledges that I know more about it than anyone he's ever met, including himself and his seminary professors. But knowledge and understanding aren't everything, just as I've seen a lot in TRP/MRP threads that reading up and knowing the theory of frame and all that isn't the same as actually putting it into practice. So, I'm still working on growing :)

Condition of Home

I did add an edit about the condition of my home. We're not slobs and our house is in good shape and clean most of the time, and we have a cleaning lady come in bi-weekly to keep up with the stuff that we don't have time for. My point wasn't that our house is crap - it's that I feel like I'm wasting my time on stuff that doesn't matter to me, making it hard to maintain motivation. I do have a threshold that I'm not willing to dip below, but early in our marriage I wouldn't do anything until it hit that threshold (which was still pretty darn good compared to 90% of people's homes I see); then in my heavy-beta phase I just did whatever her threshold said to appease her.

My bar was high enough that I'd be comfortable inviting attorney friends or judges/magistrates over, but my wife was still mortified when a crumb was found on the floor or the TV had a fingerprint on it and she would take the burden upon herself pick up the difference from my bar to her bar. When I started owning my life, I sucked it up and just started raising my bar to her bar anyway - no longer to appease her, but because that's what I thought I should be doing. But I'm losing motivation and interest in doing things like vacuuming a clean floor simply because it hadn't been done in the last 48 hours. The excess is what's killing my motivation, as I don't see any return/reward for my labor and time.

To go back to the "Captain" example, imagine the wheel needs to be calibrated once a month, but your first mate is insecure about it and thinks it should be calibrated every single day, just in case something went wrong. Even if I buy into the mentality that it's better to be safe than sorry and I fully take ownership of it, at some point I'm just going to feel like a fool doing things that don't actually need to be done.

Expectations

If you are fine with it going to pot, then dont expect your wife to do the work instead

With the above context that it's never really going to get that way, one thing that has always been clear throughout our entire marriage (and maybe this is part of my problem?) is that I don't expect anything from her. If I want it done, I do it. Period. Probably not healthy, but I can't think of a time in our marriage where I've legit asked her for help on a significant project, except a few times where I had to work late and asked her to pick up the kids from daycare. There are probably a handful of times a year where I ask her, "Can you hand that to me?" but that's about it.

She has actually complained about this, saying that it's nice that I don't pressure her to do anything and that I am able to take care of myself and the kids independently, but that it makes her feel like I don't need her, and therefore she's irrelevant in my life. I think that's part of why she raises the bar on taking care of the house - because then she feels like she's adding value in an area that she sees as meaningful, but gets really frustrated when I don't sing her praises for meeting a higher standard that I didn't care to have met in the first place.

Either way, I'll check out Darlock and some of the other recommended reading materials soon.

[–]SeamusAwl0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

If you are losing motivation it sounds like you have covert contracts that are not being met. How can they? I also see you misunderstood what i am talking about and i probably didnt explain it good enough. What i mean is if you see the dishes need to be cleaned, you do them. Why? Because they are dirty and you want a clean house. Not to get any reward. The reward is having a clean house. Ultimately, the responsibility rests on your shoulders.

As for comment about not needing her? That is where you game your wife. You agree and amplify by saying something like "you're right i dont need you. But i want you". With a sly grin. Then pull her into the bedroom and say " and this is how i want you. "

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

if you see the dishes need to be cleaned, you do them. Why? Because they are dirty and you want a clean house.

That's probably where my biggest disconnect is. If the sink is loaded, sure, I'll want it cleaned. If there are a few dishes, I don't care to clean it more than it is ... but I still do it just because it's there and it needs to be done, not because it makes my house cleaner. I think it has more to do with making progress, even in the little things that don't matter - knocking them out before they do matter, even if I don't get the same gratification from it as if I had waited until it was a full sink and can actually see significant progress at the end.

game your wife ... "i dont need you. But i want you."

I've had this conversation many times :) In fact, there have been a handful of times when she has asked me, "How would you feel if I died?" My response is typically, "I would be sad, but not devastated. I find my satisfaction in God, not you. You're here because I like you and want you around." It's never translated to sex, though ... and that logic really came from beta me trying to be all sweet and thoughtful without sacrificing honesty. Needless to say, beta me was too internally screwed up to have the guts to pull her into the bedroom.

[–]WisdomTangoFoxtrot6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy

I was pretty alpha and she loved it

No. Because...you're not leading her or yourself as evidenced here:

For example, BJs are off the table.

I also tried to go down on her once and she cut things off on the spot, insisting I never do that again.

Is this something where I should just give up and move on or does your version of "being a man" mean setting a goal and making it a reality, no matter how much opposition you face along the way/never giving up even if the goal is highly improbable?

And because you are concerned about this...you aren't as OI as you say here...

In essence, I stopped relying on my wife to validate me through sex and began to realize that I didn't need anything other than God and to be the man he created me to be. Although the definition might be slightly off, I think my attitude was about as close to "OI" as a Christian can/should get

And that's ok.

Your Christian faith if you are living it full out, is the priority achievement item. However, you are very likely looking at it through a blue pill lens. Lift. Sidebar. And then read the Bible as if every male is alpha af. And you need to know what alpha is to truly analyze what was going on.

  • Take David. Spy's an HB10 and it turns out to be an officer's wife, and bangs her. So he sends her husband off to the war front so he can be covertly killed. Now he can add her to his collection of plates.

  • Take Ahithophel. Betrays David. Sends Absalom to bang David's wives on the roof of the palace in full view of David and Israel.

  • Take Jesus. He knew full well women's hypergamous nature. He knew men's desires. As did many men of the Bible.

Read the Bible through a redpill lens and it will make a lot more sense. That will get your faith in order. Regarding your sex life, it's already been said here by others.

  • She is a woman.
  • She is no different than any other.

Many of the Chad's here could get your perfect little snowflake to gobble their cock willingly and lovingly.

Between that, developing solid eating/exercising habits, and an OI attitude ... what's next? Or is it just mastering the basics and learning how to make the past few months something sustainable for life?

This means you have bigger problems. Yes, diet, lift, etc. You don't know what your purpose is. You don't know what MRP is. MRP is a robust sexual strategy framework for married men. It is additive or complimentary to your faith. If fully swallowed, it should blow your world up and you should see the matrix.

[–]mountainbiker1780 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is spot on!

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

My alpha days were when we were dating and probably the first year of our marriage. I wasn't implying that I've been alpha the whole time, by any means ... betaness just developed over time. You may or may not believe me (doesn't really matter), but I'm content in what I believe to be an objective perception of how I interacted with the world and my wife back then. In her terms, that's what made her want to marry me, but it never did much for our sex life.

I didn't say I was concerned about getting BJs or going down on her. I was merely curious how this community would interpret things I've been through. I'm new to TRP/MRP, so I'm still absorbing things from an intellectual standpoint before I can start personalizing it. My analytical mental framework has that innate drive to want to understand where a thing begins and ends before I start walking its line.

I do feel like I have a strong understanding of my life's purpose and I'm committed to it. That is one of the things I have never wavered on during the course of our marriage. That said, I totally agree that I "don't know what MRP is," and that's the primary purpose of my post: to figure out what the heck this is all about and how MRP principles would apply in different scenarios. Understanding it as a sex strategy frame-work really helps (none of the other posts I read put it so bluntly). Is that the end-goal of MRP, or is there something more to it? I see a lot of "becoming the best you you can be!" slogans paraded through the comments sections, but that just seems cheesy and lame when it's put that way.

[–]SeamusAwl2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

The red pill is a sexual strategy. MRP is how to apply it in the context of marriage. The end goal of MRP is for you to become a better man then when you first showed up. Most come here broken and in a failing relationship. I dont know what brought you. The "slogans" do appear cheesy from the outside. But to those that understand them, its a reminder that the only person you can change is yourself. And if you dont like the situation you put yourself in, then you are the only one responsible to do something about it to change it.

So what is it you want out of your marriage?

[–]WisdomTangoFoxtrot0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I was merely curious how this community would interpret things I've been through.

And you do have your answer. They interpret it as: "You were never alpha."

Understanding it as a sex strategy frame-work really helps (none of the other posts I read put it so bluntly). Is that the end-goal of MRP, or is there something more to it?

You've answered your own question. It's a framework. Frameworks are not end goals. Men who MRP journey to check off all of the boxes still find themselves highly capable and equipped but unfulfilled. They are of sufficient raw material at that point though, that once they figure out their purpose...they have tools to achieve it.

I see a lot of "becoming the best you you can be!" slogans paraded through the comments sections, but that just seems cheesy and lame when it's put that way.

So you're not reading between the lines enough.

In summary, some men come here, on the verge of divorce. Whether they know it or not. The "strategy" and that's the keyword...is to improve the man. It's the only known effective way to turn things around at any stage. It's the only thing the man can control at that point. So divorce no divorce. The man keeps the gains to himself. And because a man, if not sufficiently advanced, is unable to determine their current state and we as a community are unable to trust their assessment of their current state, the strategy starts and ends with improving the man. The result set from those improvements yields useful data points to adapt and overcome.

Some of the best work is being done in the OYS threads, where men are able to bounce ideas off each other and the community can help a man measure how he is holding himself accountable.

[–]SteelToeShitKickerRed Beret2 points3 points  (19 children) | Copy

. It's important to note that due to our faith, divorce is not an option (not that either of us are contemplating this).

This is always an excuse. The fact of the matter is that legally divorce IS an option if only ONE of you decides it is. It doesn't have to be you. You should come to terms with this fact.

EDIT: HOLY FUCKING SHIT. Read the post history, OP IS A DIVORCE LAWYER!!! How the fuck can a DIVORCE LAWYER be so naive about DIVORCE not being an option?

Like nuclear weapons, having divorce as an option usually means you don't have to push the big red button. Even the Romans knew this. Si vis pacem, para bellum.

You wife will never chase you if she knows you won't ever leave. That puts you in the default position of chasing her, which is really not good for your marriage.

As someone who occassionaly goes to church, I realize that some of what is preached is good, some is mediocre, and some is unadulterated horseshit. You have to decide what you follow and what you don't.

For example, every day (getting better about this) I strap a pistol to my ass. I pray that I never have reason to use it. However, if me or a family member are under attack, I'm not going to be turning the other cheek. That's something I get to live with if it happens, and if it means that Satan is keeping a devil set aside for me, so be it.

We all make our own decisions, you however are just showing a total lack of leadership by delegating all decisions to the church. I hope your testicles decend one day.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy

You wife will never chase you if she knows you won't ever leave. That puts you in the default position of chasing her, which is really not good for your marriage.

This is something I'm going to have to think long and hard about. One thing that I've really been bothered by his her perception that "godly men are supposed to pursue and chase after their wives." Frankly, I don't see this in the Bible. Read literally any passage about budding relationships and it's almost always the woman seducing the guy to drive him crazy until he finally chases her because he wants her so bad - but it starts with her interest in him and not the other way around.

I brought this up once in a study in the book of Ruth and the entire group's jaws dropped. "Yes, that's exactly what happened. Ruth liked a guy who wasn't her husband, seduced him, and then let him buy her." They couldn't believe it and kept trying to read other things into the text about how Boaz was really the white-knight beta savior who saw a woman in need and came to her rescue. No, she's the one who chased after him.

Regarding the nuke example, we'll have to agree to disagree there. As a philosophy it makes sense, but there are some lines I will not cross and this one breaks two of them: (1) acceptance of divorce without grounds, and (2) using threats and manipulation to coerce behavior. That said, because of my occupation, she's terrified at the prospect of ever leaving me (again, I'm a divorce attorney).

lack of leadership by delegating all decisions to the church

It's more the other way around. I disciple my pastor and he comes to me for input on how to run the church. I'm the one teaching classes, setting policy, and cultivating the culture in our body. I do make sure that my leadership is always aligned with what I understand to be biblical and I will never depart from that. So, I guess you could say that I'm delegating decisions to the Bible, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that when the Bible has an actual directive on point. But there are several matters where I disagree with my church and refuse to conform ... that's been true in different ways for pretty much every church I've ever been in.

[–]SteelToeShitKickerRed Beret0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

but it starts with her interest in him and not the other way around.

Aloof is powerful. Aloof is attractive.

(1) acceptance of divorce without grounds

You of all people know that you don't need reasons for divorce anymore. Those of the red pill know that if a divorce is wanted, the hamster is ready with excuses and reasons. You won't be granted the same courtesy if your wife wants a divorce. Though, being a divorce lawyer, you have tactical nukes at the ready, even if you won't admit it.

(2) using threats and manipulation to coerce behavior.

I, nor anyone else here, has said to use threats and manipulation. Now I didn't say it explicity, but when we talk about "accepting that divorce is an option" we are talking about YOU accepting it in your head. You coming to peace with the possibility that you might not be married for life, and that you can have a pretty good life without your wife.

In shorthand, we call it breaking your oneitis. Taking off your preconceptions, opening the door to your mental cage. Allowing yourself to have some space and detachment. It allows you to become more relaxed and aloof. Aloof allows women to chase.

So, I guess you could say that I'm delegating decisions to the Bible, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that when the Bible has an actual directive on point. But there are several matters where I disagree with my church and refuse to conform ...

Good, I'm quite glad to hear from a christian RP noob who is cogent and can think for himself. It's fairly rare.

Just beware that confirmation bias exists when reading the bible. If you go to find something in there, you will probably find it in there, somewhere.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

you don't need reasons for divorce anymore

Sorry, I meant biblical grounds. Legal grounds are a joke. As to my wife's hamster, she is a legalist through and through with every fiber of her being. This means that she will sacrifice every ounce of her own happiness for the sake of "not sinning." Interestingly enough, this attitude itself is pretty darn sinful and not what Jesus called us to. Jesus came to free us from the law, not to make us slaves to it again. But my point is: even though I accept the possibility that she may leave me one day, I see it as about as likely as me winning the lotto ... particularly in light of the fact that I don't buy lotto tickets. Is it possible? Yes. But even less likely than it is for the average lotto player, which is already absurdly unlikely as it is.

You coming to peace with the possibility that you might not be married for life, and that you can have a pretty good life without your wife.

Yes, I get that and am already on board ... have been for a number of years. There have been a handful of times when she has asked me, "How would you feel if I died?" My response is typically, "I would be sad, but not devastated. I find my satisfaction in God, not you. You're here because I like you and want you around." This is truth for me in my inner-most being.

That said, explain to me more about this "oneitis" thing ...? I've read it a few times on this and related subs, but haven't fully gotten what the MRP stance is on it.

I'm quite glad to hear from a christian RP noob who is cogent and can think for himself. It's fairly rare.

Yeah, I try to train the guys I teach to avoid being blind followers. Acts 17:11 commends the Bereans for being "more noble than the Thessalonians" because instead of just taking Paul's word for it when he taught things, they actually looked it up and tested his words against the Scripture to see if what he said was true. We should all be striving to be more like the Bereans ... otherwise, why would Luke commend them as being "more noble" if we weren't supposed to follow in their footsteps?

confirmation bias

Agreed and understood. In the many years I've spent developing my study/interpretation skills, hermeneutics, etc. this is one of the things I've worked at the most.

My discipler once suggested when we were studying a passage together, "How would your mom interpret this verse?" It caught me off guard. The he asked, "What about the president? How would he react to this? Or what about an atheist or buddhist or hindu? How would your best friend interpret this?" I scratched my head and realized I couldn't answer all these questions. He concluded, "Until you can visualize something from other perspectives beyond your own, you'll never fully understand it. That's the core premise behind meditating on Scripture." I now practice this regularly when I study the Bible, and have taken it a few levels forward since then as well.

[–]SteelToeShitKickerRed Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

This means that she will sacrifice every ounce of her own happiness for the sake of "not sinning." Interestingly enough, this attitude itself is pretty darn sinful and not what Jesus called us to. Jesus came to free us from the law, not to make us slaves to it again.

That's unfortunate. It sounds like you are trying to work within the framework that's causing problems instead of breaking the framework. The problem is the framework and the answer isn't lawyering around the rules. No wonder she's a cold fish in bed, she's worried about a big peeping tom in the sky judging her every moment.

Now RP dogma would say: "She's just not attracted." So let's go in that direction for a bit. Do you lift? Are you a fat fuck?

My response is typically, "I would be sad, but not devastated. I find my satisfaction in God, not you. You're here because I like you and want you around."

You sure do lay it on thick sometimes. Why does everyone need to be reminded at all times about your love for God? Are you seeking approval? Do you like having everyone know how Godly you are?

It's one thing to try to follow a religion, but it's quite another to rub people's noses in it all the time. If you wife decidede to slut it up with you, you would probably judge her.

That said, explain to me more about this "oneitis" thing ...?

Oneitis is the idea that your wife is the only one for you. That you will never divorce. By definition, it puts you in chase mode, lack of abundance mode, needy mode. It is terribly unattractive.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Do you lift? Are you fat?

For the first 3 years of our marriage, yes I lifted and no I was not fat. Here's a quick snapshot. There have been ups and downs, but the overall trend looks something like this.

  • At the time we married I was 6'0", 180lbs, doing triathalons and benching close to 300lbs.

  • When we started having kids (3 years into marriage) I gradually declined until about a year ago when I hit my worst: 275lbs, struggling to run 5Ks and not lifting at all.

  • Today, I'm back in marathon shape (not quite triathalon), weighing 220 and benching 250. I don't have a 6-pack or bulging veins and haven't had that since high school. I'm still working on rebuilding.

Why does everyone need to be reminded at all times about your love for God?

Sorry, that was kind of the context for this thread, and it also frames the context of my entire life, so I didn't think it would be off-putting. I'm happy to tone it down :) If you were referencing my conversation with my wife specifically, to that end you have to remember that I'm giving snapshots of conversations that might happen once every couple years, so it's not like I'm always feeding her this line. Part of my beta-ness was the fact that I really was not leading in a spiritual way (I gave up because she wasn't responding to my efforts to lead and specifically told me to stop trying to lead her at one point). Since then, spiritual conversation only comes up between us when we're in groups with other people who want to talk about it as well (b/c she won't shut them down if that's what they want to talk about), which also contributes to a huge disconnect: that despite having a common faith, we aren't "one" in how we live it out or communicate it. I clearly see that the responsibility for this is on my shoulders, not hers.

If you wife decidede to slut it up with you, you would probably judge her.

Not in the slightest. Biblically, I don't see many boundaries between what husbands and wives are allowed to do together. The only real boundary I have is causing harm (spanking is fine, doing actual damage to her body is not). I've tried introducing kinky-ish things in small ways here and there to gradually show her that I'm okay with it, but ropes to the bedpost is about the farthest she's ever been willing to go, and that probably only happened once or twice. Beta me respected her boundaries with a smile, while internally resenting her for it until I just said "screw it" and stopped caring anymore.

Oneitis is the idea that your wife is the only one for you

Yeah, I get what you're saying now. I don't believe in the concept of "soul mates," and fully accept the fact that there are countless other women out in the world with whom I could have a happier marriage. That said, having a happy marriage isn't my primary goal in life, and preserving the marriage I have is a significant factor in maintaining and pursuing the other things that really matter to me. So, for the sake of achieving higher priorities, making the most of my current marriage is what makes the most sense, even independent of any spiritual beliefs about divorce. But the spiritual beliefs certainly give her a reassurance that my independent priorities would not, as those priorities could change whereas she knows I won't give up on my faith, letting her abuse my oneitis for her own purposes. Interestingly enough, though, even though it doesn't come up often she has occasionally brought up the fact that one of her biggest fears is that I'll divorce her because my dad divorced my mom (my life very closely paralleled my dad's until about 5 years ago, when we finally diverged, the most significant parallel being that my dad was a pastor, yet that didn't stop him from divorce after he'd been out of the ministry for a couple decades).

[–]SteelToeShitKickerRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Sorry, that was kind of the context for this thread, and it also frames the context of my entire life, so I didn't think it would be off-putting. I'm happy to tone it down :)

You are slippery, I do bet you make a great lawyer.

The context was you talking with your wife, I'm not asking you to tone it down for my sake. Look, I can be a total asshole, and can say some shit, but if I were to tell my wife that she's replaceable (not beyond me) or what I would feel upon her possible death, I wouldn't follow it up with I love God more than anything, including you. It's gratuitous at that point, which is why I really think you are looking for approval.

What does "leading in a spiritual way" mean to you?

I've tried introducing kinky-ish things in small ways here and there to gradually show her that I'm okay with it, but ropes to the bedpost is about the farthest she's ever been willing to go, and that probably only happened once or twice. Beta me respected her boundaries with a smile, while internally resenting her for it until I just said "screw it" and stopped caring anymore.

Well, here's my 2c on this. If you want to lead her to kink in bed, you have to fly your freak flag first. There's a saying in NLP, if you want to get someone in a state, you go first. If you aren't having a good time, that will be reflected back at you. If you are enjoying yourself, in spite of some frigidity, she might be inclined to follow. You want her to be jealous of how much fun you are having...

my life very closely paralleled my dad's until about 5 years ago, when we finally diverged, the most significant parallel being that my dad was a pastor, yet that didn't stop him from divorce after he'd been out of the ministry for a couple decades

Lawyer son of a pastor who became a divorce attorney. Your life sounds like the plot line of a B-grade horror flick.

[–]SeamusAwl0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy

Turning the other cheek doesnt mean you do not defend yourself. That was in regard to your ego/honor. Self defense is entirely biblical. Somehow the organized church turned into something its not. Just like the do with meekness. They expect everyone to be submissive little pissants. But the truth is David showed masculine biblical meekness. Was he a submissive little wuss? No. Joseph in Genesis showed masculine meekness. Was he a wuss and complained about his circumstances? No. The Centurion who went to Jesus about his sick servant gives us the best example of masculine meekness in the bible. I am highly doubtful that he was a wimp. Not with how Centurions were supposed to be. Turn the other cheek is just another one of those ways they try to bluepill us.

[–]SteelToeShitKickerRed Beret1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy

Turning the other cheek doesnt mean you do not defend yourself. That was in regard to your ego/honor.

This is the first I have ever heard of this distinction. It's not what's being taught, that's for sure.

My main point, and this reinforces it actually, is that everyone needs to think for themselves. The fact of the matter is that the bible is a book, written by different people at different times, with much editing and translations in between. For the most part, you can scry what you want into it.

I for one, would love to learn koni greek and find out if Luke, in the "original" (or as close as possible) text, sounds like it's written by a flaming faggot, or that was merely added in translation.

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah. Compared to the writing of Paul, Luke.

[–]SeamusAwl0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy

The visual i get is when someone walks up to you and backhands you across the face. Like you see in movies set in the 1700-1800 era. It fits with the other parts about asking for your coat or asking you to go a mile. It makes no sense to me to apply it to coming around a corner and getting jumped by bandits when the other two are more along the lines of submission to authority. Especially considering that Jesus advised his own disciples to sell their own cloaks to buy a sword if they didnt have one.

[–]SteelToeShitKickerRed Beret0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy

Especially considering that Jesus advised his own disciples to sell their own cloaks to buy a sword if they didnt have one.

You know that many now say that Jesus was being sarcastic when he said that, right?

[–]Red-Curious[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Yeah, that's weird. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a time when Jesus ever spoke sarcastically or in hyperbole, although there are a few passages where people impute that attitude on him just because they don't like the implications of what he really said.

A friend of mine used to say things like this: "I did a Greek word study on the word 'hate' in that passage. I read all kinds of dictionaries and looked up the etymology, non-biblical uses of the word, and even asked an expert on Koine Greek. Do you know what I discovered that word really means in the original language? Hate."

[–]SteelToeShitKickerRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

people impute that attitude on him just because they don't like the implications of what he really said.

Yep.

Do you know what I discovered that word really means in the original language? Hate.

Hehe, very nice. I'm pretty sure if I opened my mouth, everything would all go downhill, so when I disagree at church, I nod and smile.

[–]RPPilot1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

You know that many now say that Jesus was being sarcastic when he said that, right?

People can SAY Jesus was being sarcastic, but He wasn't. In Luke 22:36 He told His disciples to sell their cloak to buy a sword. Keep in mind that carrying a sword was legal only for Roman citizens, and not all of the disciples were citizens. So Jesus was telling some of them to break the law in order to be able to defend themselves. So... self defense was placed above the law.

The cloak was, for most people, the only article of clothing they owned. Only the rich had multiple articles of clothing. So self defense was also placed above being clothed. BTW, nakedness wasn't the taboo in Jesus' times that it is now.

Self defense with a weapon is DEFINITELY biblical.

[–]SeamusAwl0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

And yet he never chastised them for carrying swords. Just for using them in anger when they came to arrest him.

[–]SteelToeShitKickerRed Beret1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

BTW, I don't disagree with you, merely saying that there are opposing viewpoints out there, so people should read and make up thier own mind.

To me, to read the bible, it tells the story of a dude who runs around the middle east telling people they are full of shit, kicking ass, and smoting trees that bother him. I don't see modern "hugs and cuddles Jesus" who is preached about today.

[–]SeamusAwl1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Pretty much.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Agreed.

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Shit. Flip a table in your own home today, and get carted off to jail for threatening your spouse and kids.

He tipped all the tables in the Temple marketplace just to prove a point.

Buddy Jesus he was not.

[–]ParadoxThatDrivesUs2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

You should start with NMMNG. You have really strong nice guy traits and I get the sense that you aren't aware of it. That book will probably transform everything you think you know about yourself and how you relate to the world.

As for the question in your title, MRP is compatible with religion in exactly the same way that science is compatible with religion - which is to say, it may prompt you to rethink elements of your religion that are not compatible with certain truths about how the world works, but you can easily land upon a revised understanding of your religion that accommodates the elements of MRP that you find to be true in your life.

[–]InChargeManRed Beret2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy

There is a lot here to unpack, but a couple comments:

-You were never Alpha

-Organized religion is a tool for control. I'm not stating this to offend you, but understand this to be true. I'm not here to challenge the existence of "god" for you, that is your own business. You are being controlled in that you see divorce as "off the table", she is being controlled regarding her views on sex, etc. etc. etc. With that being said, the sooner you understand this fact, you can use it to your advantage (if you so wish). i.e. The bible is chock full of shit about the woman serving the man, etc. You can use this to potentially persuade (trap) her into having sex with you. Which brings me to the next point.

-Don't do that. You will be implementing the worlds biggest covert contract. "If she follows the bible and brings her self to do things she doesn't want to do, she will be a good christian and rise to heaven". This will last for a while, then she will wise up and push back even harder. This is known as Beta rape (note to SJW's reading this, cool your jets, in-fact this is a pro-woman concept). You are forcing her to have sex against her will through coercion.

-Rules are for Betas, exceptions are for Alphas. She wants somebody to follow, be somebody she wants to follow. When you arrived she will do anything for you (in the way that you likely already would do anything for her). Bringing me to the next point.

-NO COVERT CONTRACTS! You are the prize, act that way. She doesn't want to give you a BJ? That is her choice, fair and square. You have your choice, it is very simple, A. accept the no or B. inform her that it is not negotiable, that you will not be living your life without BJs. It is as simple as that. For real. She will know if you are bullshit, that is where the shit tests come in. Own your feelings, own your decisions. Once she knows you are legit, she will have to choose her next path, either step up her game, allow you to have women on the side, or divorce. Once you have OI it is as easy as paint by numbers.

-Since you are "religious" I assume that means you wouldn't cheat. I'm not religious, but my morals also preclude me from cheating. That doesn't mean jack-shit for my ability to set personal boundaries for my relationships and act without pause if they are crossed. Boundaries are not just for negative actions, they are also for inaction. Whenever my wife brings up the topic of cheating, I'm always very clear "I wouldn't cheat, that violates my morals. When I'm ready to start having sex with other women you will be the first to know so we can deal with it." I get no push back, she completely understands and nods her head in agreement. "Deal with it" can mean anything, as long as it ends with my needs being met.

I don't give a crap about my own life circumstances beyond a relatively low threshold

-Knock that shit off

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

You were never Alpha

I respectfully disagree. But I'll take your post in this context nonetheless.

Organized religion is a tool for control.

I actually agree with you. That doesn't diminish the truth it has to offer or the value it brings. Faith and grace, on the other hand, are the exact opposite. They remove control by granting freedoms that didn't exist in the era of the law (or as Christians call it: the old covenant). Unfortunately, most modern western church leaders would prefer to be behavioral psychologists than actual pastors (the way the Bible defines the role), so they're more interested in conforming behavior patterns than developing hearts and relationships. To put it more clearly: God doesn't want people to act nice and avoid bad things; he wants nice people who have no desire to do bad things. One is actions based, another is character based. Most churches confuse actions and character. They'll use the word "character," but (to quote Inigo Montoya, Princess Bride): "I do not think it means what you think it means."

use it to your advantage ... persuade (trap) her into having sex with you

Yeah, I'm not interested in that.

"follows the bible ... good christian ... heaven"

Agreed, but on different grounds. This is back to that behavior conformity garbage that many pastors focus on. Behavior matters, but (to quote my discipler): "We are human beings, not human doings. Stop trying to define yourself by what you do; figure out who you are, then live it out." In other words, obeying all the rules cannot possibly make someone a "better Christian." But being a Christian does provoke an internal desire to live a certain way. Getting this process mixed up is one of the most serious problems in the church.

Rules are for Betas, exceptions are for Alphas

And that's probably a better way of summing up what I've been saying :p (using RP terminology, of course).

NO COVERT CONTRACTS

If you can, can you explain this covert contracts idea a bit more? Basic logic and context leads me to conclude that they're subconscious codes that we live by, assuming that we can expect a certain quid pro quo when we meet the code or sets of expectations others might have on us or that we put on ourselves. But how, exactly, does that fit into RP mentality? Is it simply that it's inconsistent with being OI and OI is necessary in order to reach a state of being that will attract her? Or is there more to it than that?

Questions aside, I obviously agree with the concept and have been implementing at least my understanding of this concept for a long time as something I believe the Bible teaches as well. But, maybe you saw something in my post that implied I'm a little blinded to my own covert contracts? If you could angle that mirror for me to catch the blind spot, that would be very helpful :)

It's also worth noting, if it makes a difference, that she is fully aware that my position will be "accept the no," which is exactly what I've done. I don't let it get to me anymore ... I just brought it up as an example, not something I'm worried about changing.

All that said, thanks for the input :) This has been helpful.

[–]InChargeManRed Beret1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

In general, lots of sidebar reading is in your future. I'm not going to repeat it all here, but in reference to your Christian leaning views, I think you have to fully embrace the options available to you as a Man/human, even if you don't wish to choose them. No option is off the table, just lower in priority than others.

Covert contracts is discussed ad-nauseam here, and I'm not likely to do it better, but for a quick summary regarding your situation: Women/people don't respect those who utilize covert contracts to get what they want, which in this context is embodied by the man making "deals" that get what he wants in exchange for something she wants. For example, "if I take the kids out of the house for the day, make dinner, wash the dishes and fold the laundry she will HAVE to give me sex tonight, since she will have no more excuses." A bigger example for you is "I married her in a church, and if she wants to be a good christian she needs to have sex with me at least 2X per week. If not, I'm going to try to make her feel bad about disappointing god (or insert any other manipulations here)."

Also extremely important is to understand the "red pill Rambo" and how it applies to covert contracts. i.e. I lost 35 lbs and take charge more, now she needs to have sex with me, respect me, etc, etc. NOPE. She doesn't need to do shit. period. Many guys will make some changes and expect her to come running, then it doesn't happen and he flips his shit and acts like the bitch that he is. Outcome Independence is the most important factor for you to understand. You are the conductor on the awesome train, she is welcome to get on and off the train whenever she wants, it has no effect on your path. As it has been said, your life and behaviors should look pretty much the same regardless of her presence/mood/etc. She is at many times like a child, treat her as such (this is not derogatory, by the way, we love our children the most in this world), but when my kid throws a fit, that doesn't ruin my day. Once she calms down, it is business as usual, your train never slowed down.

To the point of covert contracts. As I said in my post earlier, your choices/actions are based on your assessments/needs 100%. Don't mistake that to mean selfish (although it is by definition). I strive to be a very fun, open, and giving person to ALL people within my circle. My wife has the choice to be in the circle or not. Just as I have the choice to be in her's. I make the entry requirements for my circle very clear, which is an OVERT CONTRACT. This is how a leader behaves. She knows full well that being loving, respectful, open sexually, a great mother, and a major contributor to our household is my requirement. No arguing about it, easy peasy. If one area is lacking I have no problem bringing it up and working together as a TEAM to fix it. Again, just like a leader in a job. If something is precluding her from sex, we'll talk about it and find a resolution. No begging or guilt tripping, just the facts ma'am. Also, I need to handle my shit, including being somebody who my wife would want to have sex with. If for you, living your life with no sex is acceptable, then you need to embrace it. Accept that you are willing to live as a monk because you love everything else. Regardless of your religious believe, you only live once, enjoy it.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is good. Thanks!

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

She is at many times like a child, treat her as such

This mentality helps. I think it gives a lot of perspective on how to deal with tests and general garbage that comes my way - and it's true: I can deal with my kids screaming at me without ruining my day, so I should be able to do it with her too. Thanks :)

That said, I'm pretty sure the covert contracts and OI stuff are things I've already got down pat. I have a lot of work to do in other areas, but the more I read about those things, the more I'm feeling confident in where I stand on them. Maintaining frame has always been a natural part of my character.

The "no begging or guilt tripping" thing confuses me a little. I have also refused to resort to those things. Beta me had that idea that the "perfect guy" was the one who would respect her boundaries and be happy about it. Everything I'm hearing here is to push those boundaries. So, I think I've already been doing the "no begging or guilt tripping" thing, but probably from the wrong place.

[–]SeamusAwl0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Well. For your wife i wouldnt push the kink. What might work is for you both to study the life and books of Solomon. Ending with the Song of Solomon. I wouldnt begin there. Meanwhile, i would start doing the suggestions of Athol Kay in MMSLP. Give her a passionate kiss before you leave to work and when you get home each and every day. Refuse to let her go until after 10 seconds. Work your way up to when you are able to gently grab her hand and guide her to the bedroom for sex. If she shuts you down, dont get butthurt. Her loss, not yours. By the time you get to Song of Solomon, sex should be a regular thing. Then you can start to insert kink as you read through that book. Clearly showing her that eating her out and getting blowjobs is in the bible and is expressed as a beautiful thing. Which of course it is.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Good thoughts. Thanks!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy

There is no need to mention religion at all in any of this. The title of the post should not mention religion and neither should you. It is irrelevant except that you note divorce is off the table and you use it as an excuse. So let's get down to the nuts and bolts:

  1. She does not see you as a leader or find you attractive. I doubt that she has ever found you attractive. This does not just mean physically attractive, girls will fuck the brains out of a guy with average looks if he gives her tingles. You have never given her tingles. She only has sex to procreate, you are lucky she is also religious.

  2. You use the religion thing as a crutch. This quote is extremely telling - "What if my vision for life has to do with helping other people and it doesn't matter whether crap gets done around the house in order to fulfill that vision". In other words your house/ yard is a pigsty and you do not do the manly things that a wife expects done. You use the bullshit excuse/ crutch of religion to justify your laziness/ lack of masculinity. Why can't you help others and take care of the house? Pathetic

  3. You just need to start at square one and focus on lifting and diet. Personally I think you are up shit creek without a paddle and there is no fixing your sex life. There is almost no chance that you become the man she wants to get dirty for. Either she is very low libido naturally (hence the excuses) or she has never really been that into you (maybe you are short and ugly, I don't know). You have never had a good sex life with her so you are not going to reinvent the wheel with a woman who has multiple kids and who has never found you attractive. Even if you spend 2 years at the gym (you are 2 years away from a better body) then she has to erase all that history from her brain. It's just not going to happen.

I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news for you but any happy sexual future probably does not include your wife. Even at the beginning you said she regularly refused, would say she is frigid. You have almost nothing to build on here. What does the bible say about sand foundations?

[–]ParadoxThatDrivesUs0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

It's even worse than you describe. I believe women who are scared away from sex often unconsciously choose to be with guys that they aren't attracted to. So OP may be dealing with a woman who doesn't like sex generally and isn't attracted to him in particular.

On the other hand, OP, assuming you haven't already deleted this account, the good news is that none of this has anything to do with what actually matters here, which is improving yourself.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

none of this has anything to do with what actually matters here, which is improving yourself

Indeed. That single purpose is what got me started down this path months before even discovering this sub :) I'm still curious, though, if MRP thinks I should maintain my intentionally stifled libido leading to my "screw sex, I don't need it" attitude, or if giving up hope is really, in effect, giving her more power and authority over me, submitting to her frame of sexlessness rather than the frame I originally tried to maintain of desiring a healthy sex life.

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

^ This.

Amoral is necessarily without added layers of "God rules."

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

I doubt that she has ever found you attractive ... gives her tingles

When we were dating, I did this. At some point she started feeling dirty for being aroused before marriage, which led to her withdrawing from situations where we could get physically close. I started to back off from the relationship as a result. She recoiled and promised that when we were married she would feel open and free, jumping all over me. Things got better for a while, but when we married she never followed through. Not sure if that changes anything, except to say that I do believe she found me attractive when I was an alpha before. I just let a few bumps and bruises along the way lead me down the beta path for so long that her former attraction fell into oblivion.

In other words your house/ yard is a pigsty and you do not do the manly things that a wife expects done.

I can see how you got that impression, leading me to make an edit on my post. My point wasn't that I'm not doing these things. It's that I don't care to and it's become something I dread rather than something I enjoy because I don't see how it connects to my passions and purpose. Of course, again, that's my problem, not hers.

focus on lifting and diet

Still working on this. I'm in pretty good shape now, but someone else here helpfully noted, "wedding weight isn't enough. You need to be like a ripped high school jock." I'm not there yet. I'm 6'0", 220lbs, can run a marathon and bench 250 ... but my physique is not "ripped" and I do still have a little padding on me.

there is no fixing your sex life ... You have never had a good sex life with her

Accepting the second part as true, if I'm correct about her being attracted to me at one point, does that change the hope for the future? Or is your line about her being "very low libido naturally" (if that's true) something that would override most everything else?

I do agree that the need to "erase all that history from her brain" is going to be the hardest part. But isn't the whole point of MRP to do exactly that? To give hope to guys who have struggled with this issue in their marriages?

any happy sexual future probably does not include your wife

That is a reality I accepted a few years ago and decided to move on with my life, content without a healthy sex-life. Discovering TRP/MRP last night started to make me reconsider my position on this. Am I correct in understanding that you're essentially saying, "Forget about us. If you won't divorce, you're a lost cause and we can't help you"?

Tag: /u/ParadoxThatDrivesUs

[–]ParadoxThatDrivesUs1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

So a few thoughts:

First, it's posible that she's just uniquely broken and you'll never have a satisfying sex life with her - but that should be a last resort hypothesis after all else fails. Right now, it's far, far more likely that your situation is completely fixable once you get your own shit together and firmly on point. It's probably you, and you should act on that assumption. Too many guys assume it must be her and then use that as an excuse to do nothing. So run your MAP and continue to hold yourself responsible for the status of your marriage.

Second, even if I knew that you would never again have sex with your wife - even if you had taken a vow of celibacy and entered the priesthood - I would still commend MRP and this particular community to you without reservation. Not because you'll agree with everything you read - you won't, no one does - but because you'll find it offers a brutally honest reflection of your weaknesses as a man.

Third, sex is not the most important thing in life, and there could be valid reasons for renouncing hope or desire for a healthy sex life. But only if you do so from a position of strength. Right now, you would be doing so from a position of weakness. You'd be giving it up only because you think you can't have it. That's a mistake.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Well said. Thanks!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

re: points 2&3, this forum is great for seeing principled paths other men have chosen; some spin plates and stay married, some get divorced, some stick it out. Choices based on their values and desires that they take full responsibility for.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I even think getting as ripped as a high school jock may not necessarily give you the sex life you desire, maybe not even close. I am not saying you should not even try, just that I think the odds are heavily stacked against you. Maybe she is a low libido person. That is not an easy thing to fix, even if you are a ripped sex god, she is not necessarily going to respond. Of course I think your best options for a great sex life is getting it elsewhere, but you have young kids so I can see why you would dread that.

Your situation is difficult and there is no quick fix. Lose the padding for you, not her. Get fit for you, find new hobbies and passions for yourself, not with her in mind. You need to just concentrate on you for a while. If you become a fitter, more interesting version of yourself then maybe the sex will follow, but you should not make sex the goal. You are in the right place, these guys no how to save marriages. I am more of a TRP guy so follow the sidebar here to the letter. Good luck.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I even think getting as ripped as a high school jock may not necessarily give you the sex life you desire, maybe not even close.

this is absolutely true. i knew plenty of ripped HS athletes who were virgins into college. no game off the field.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I see ripped guys in their mid 20s with some really unattractive women hanging off their arm. No question that looks count, but without game it is just being wasted.

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

Devout Christian here myself. I think it is probably split 50/50 here on who is Christian and who is not. So far, I have found nothing in here that is incompatible with Christian views. If anything, it helps explain a lot of verses, men's roles, and relational dynamics that simply aren't taught anymore. The last few steps of Dread are about the only thing that approaches a Christian red line in my opinion. But honestly, if things aren't improving by that point, that is where you will need to be in the Dread spectrum anyways since the relationship is shot to hell and there is nothing there anyways. So, I can't really disagree with the steps of Dread.

Today is the first day I've discovered this sub and its related subs.

Your mind is about to be fucked... but in a good way. Just remembers, it is not her fault, it is your fault the relationship is like this. Start reading and take time to digest everything. Give yourself a month or two. Understand the do's and don'ts before tearing into anything. With a prude for a wife you will need to ease into everything slowly. You are starting at the ground floor. Which means you have nowhere to go but up.

But what if her hang-ups about sex have nothing to do with me in the first place?

Yes and no. Does she have hang ups, yes. Is there a chance she will never get past them, possibly. However, it is more than likely that you have never led her in the bedroom properly.

Your plan should be as follows: 1) Lift. Lift like your life depends on it. In a lot of ways it does. Get ripped and get sexy. Meaning, not I look better than I ever have. Or, I look pretty good for my age. Meaning I am just as ripped as any 20 something college athlete ripped. This will take time, but should be your goal. 2) Read everything and start applying RP principles and lead. Are you leading the home spiritually? In a Christian home this is important. Are you fun and planning fun activities with the family and dates with her? Start passing shit and comfort tests and your attractiveness will increase. 3) Lead in the bedroom. You have probably never pushed past any of her boundaries. You have always stopped at any resistance like a good beta nice guy. She doesn't want to be a slut. She thinks of sex as bad and her as a good girl. You will first need to attractive. Physically and with established frame. Don't push any boundaries until you have reached this point or it will backfire. You will also need to be at Dread level 5 (it still works on Christian women too) at the very least. So, you probably have about 5 months until you start this. Then slowly start introducing new things in the bedroom. Slowly.... Don't go straight for oral. Start dictating positions. Start switching up how and when you have sex. Start kissing where you haven't before. Be more dominant. As you start opening up sexually, she will likely start opening up as she enters your frame. She needs to feel comfortable and that she will not be judged. Reassure her that she is not dirty and that sex is not dirty. AWALT, she just has more hurdles to cross. But, deep down, she wants dirty nasty sex just like every other girl out there.

Don't do any of this abruptly. Otherwise, she will just think you are having a midlife crisis, an affair, or joined a cult or something. You need to step thru the process slowly, but deliberately.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

This comment was very helpful. Thank you!

it is not her fault, it is your fault the relationship is like this

Totally agreed, and I have maintained this position for a long time. That said, beta me had given up on the relationship in the first time, just looking to enjoy the little things rather than actually making something of our marriage. So, in a way, I knew I was to blame, but I didn't care because I had become content with the low relational bar and the non-existent sex bar.

ease into everything slowly

This is going to be hard. I tend to be an all-or-nothing guy. For the last several years, it's been pretty much "nothing" in the marriage and sex departments. Now I've got some revitalized interest in taking charge and developing an attractive frame. My temptation will be to change everything overnight, implementing every new tactic the very next day after reading about it. Even as a cross country/marathon runner, I never quite learned to pace myself ... I sprint until I start to run dry, take a short breather, then sprint again.

you have never led her in the bedroom properly

This is true. I've always put her sexual satisfaction above my own, catering to her desires and not mine. She has said repeatedly that she appreciates that about me - that I won't finish until she does first, which she consciously thinks of as that one-in-a-million-kinda-guy thing. But subconsciously, I feel like it was the ultimate beta bomb in her psyche, affecting how she views me.

Get ripped ... not I look better than I ever have. Or, I look pretty good for my age. Meaning I am just as ripped as any 20 something college athlete ripped.

This is probably the most helpful line I've seen on this thread. To some degree, I had "marriage weight" in my head as the goal. When we were married, I was 6'0", 180lbs, running triathalons, and benching close to 300lbs. Today, I'm the same height, but 220lbs (after losing the 35lbs I mentioned in my original post), still able to run a marathon (with much lower times), and benching about 250. But even at marriage weight and strength, I wasn't ripped the way you describe. I had abs that showed, but not quite a 6-pack, and I typically hid my physique under baggy clothes (hence what I believe to be the reason for much of the "men's fashion" advice around here).

Start passing s*** and comfort tests and your attractiveness will increase

So, I mostly read about these tests on TRP, but haven't gotten to much content about them here other than people saying, "I'm passing these" or "I'm failing these." What do these look like in a marriage context? Is it simply how you handle conflict/disagreements? Or is there more to it than that? How do you know when it's active v. passive? What's the difference between s*** and comfort in a marriage context? After 9 years of marriage, are these really "tests" or just patterns that have developed because she's already figured out beta-me's boundaries?

You have probably never pushed past any of her boundaries. You have always stopped at any resistance like a good beta nice guy.

This sums it up fairly closely. When she verbalized a boundary, instead of insisting, I would get angry. It's a pretty childish way of letting her know I didn't like her boundary ... but hey, I've been pretty naive about what a healthy sex life looks like for a good chunk of my life :p

Don't push any boundaries until you have reached this point or it will backfire

Sage advice there. That said, how clear is the line between, "That's easy - I'm already used to not pushing boundaries because I've been a pansy beta in the bedroom for so long" and "I'm an alpha now, but I'm tactfully withholding"?

Dread level 5

How does this whole dread level thing work? I saw it briefly on the sidebar, but haven't gotten there yet. Is that a place to start, or should I stick to the books before getting there?

about 5 months until you start this

That's about the time-frame I had in my head anyway.

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

My temptation will be to change everything overnight, implementing every new tactic the very next day after reading about it.

At least you recognize it and can be aware of it. I had my eyes opened pretty early on with this. I was reading MMSLP and started "testing out" some of the ideas. They all got thrown right back in my face. Many of the things you see in those books do not work until you have at least started to become more attractive. You can change somewhat quickly. It takes her a while to notice.

Get ripped ... not I look better than I ever have. Or, I look pretty good for my age.

Full disclosure. I am still working on getting there myself. I am proud of how I look in the gym these days. Probably in the top 15% of fit attractive dudes. I still need more muscle mass though. I started at a skinny 150lbs and I am now 180lbs. I would like to settle in about 190-200lbs, but at a much leaner BF% than I am now. However, my goal is to become ripped and I know that it is just a matter of commitment and dedication.

Start passing s*** and comfort tests and your attractiveness will increase. What do these look like in a marriage context?

This is where I will direct you to the sidebar. NMMNG is perfect for this. It was one of the most eye opening books. Just don't do the exercises they mention with your wife. Keep those to yourself. You don't talk about fight club to her. MMSLP and WISNIFG also touch on this. WISNIFG gives you the verbal tools to pass these tests. And yes, women do these tests in marriages. They may have slowed since you have put up zero resistance. As you start to change, they will start up again as she subconsciously beats on your new frame to see how strong it is.

That said, how clear is the line between, "That's easy - I'm already used to not pushing boundaries because I've been a pansy beta in the bedroom for so long" and "I'm an alpha now, but I'm tactfully withholding"?

This happens when you are in control and living in your frame and not hers. On the one hand you are not pushing boundaries because you are scared of her. On the other hand you are in control of the entire dynamic and situation. You are just pushing and prodding her along, but withholding going Rambo as she catches up to you.

How does this whole dread level thing work?

The post on dread is pretty self explanatory in my opinion. You may need to read and reread it several times though. Take 1 month for each level. Too fast and you will set yourself back. This takes patience. Passive dread does work in a Christian marriage. My wife is jealous as can be knowing that I am at the gym working out when other fit women are there too. However, just going out and playing basketball once a week is effective as well.

about 5 months until you start this

Assuming you start today, each dread level will take a month. By about month 5 your wife should start picking up on the positive changes. You will have spent 5 months lifting and will start looking better. You will also have developed some dread. At this point, your game etc. should start working as your SMV has been lifted higher. She will likely begin to desire you at this point.

Take the first month or two slowly. This is when you need to hit the gym to lift, read ALL of the sidebar, and internalize everything. Once you have read WISNIFG and can recognize the test you can start handling them properly.

Good luck brotha

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks :) This adequately addressed everything I was processing.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Looking more closely, is the "post on dread" the 60 day challenge? That's the only one I'm really seeing. The other thing on the sidebar that mentions dread is a blog that just recommends a ton of books that are already in the recommended reading. Is there something else I'm to be looking for?

As for the challenge, I think I've got some of it covered already:

FITNESS - I already mentioned I'm still working on this one

DIET - I just finished the Whole 30 a couple weeks ago and am maintaining core principles. Diet is well under control.

Hygiene - I started addressing this a few months back. I used to have my wife cut my hair, but started going to a genuine barber; upgraded from generic brand to Old Spice shampoo and deodorant (I actually picked these out with my wife as the ones she liked); I've started shaving more regularly (I grow slowly, so it's easy to forget and let it go too far); I started using cologne.

STYLE - After fitness, this is probably where I need the most work. I'm in the "comfy clothes" phase still, except when I'm at work, when it's all suits every day. I did, however, start intentionally keeping the suit on until my wife was home and could see me in it (not in an obvious way, of course), rather than changing immediately when I got back. I suppose instead of gym shorts for the rest of the evening I should be putting on actual clothes :p

GAME - This is one I'll have to process some. I haven't intentionally made any efforts outside our marriage, but there have been a handful of times where I'll catch myself unintentionally chatting someone up just to feel good about the fact that I can still make someone smile. I used to be real good at game, but gave it up long ago, so I'm not sure how this fits in a marriage context. "Game your wife" seems like something you'd suggest to happen much later.

FINANCES - Immaculate. No debt (except our mortgage), great retirement, good buffer in the bank, and still freedom to live the lifestyle we want.

CAREER - Couldn't be better. I'm the senior attorney at my law firm and the boss is 82 or so; the expectation is that I'll take over the firm within the next few years (possibly co-own with another attorney, depending on the logistics).

SOCIAL AND HOBBIES - I already have a strong network of guy friends. I've typically tried to include my wife in that network vis a vis their wives or just directly, but she's very introverted, so she often complains about how I have all kinds of friends and she has no real relationships. Pushing too hard on this area beyond where I'm already it would probably come off as rubbing it in her face. To help, I've shifted to some more alone-hobbies, like novel-writing, going to the gym, racquetball, swimming with the kids, running/biking, going on walks with the kids, etc. Having 4 kids (including a newborn) pretty much means I have to pick hobbies that can be done when they're in bed or I take them with me; I have always refused to use my wife as a babysitter - I just always assume I'm responsible for the kids.

Any thoughts, comments, or suggestions? Areas where you think I'm deluding myself?

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Here is the link I'm referring to.

12 Steps of Dread

Game - Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about this yet. Plus, you may not even need to go here outside your marriage. A little may go a long way. At least, that has been my case thus far.

Prior to MRP, I was, in my mind, very noble. I would rarely talk to someone of the opposite sex even at church about anything other than logistics. I did this out of respect to my wife and avoid any hints that I was somehow unfaithful. I would never setup a babysitter by texting or calling the teenage girls in the area because I didn't want to be seen as creepy. This left an unwanted burden on my wife to schedule babysitters for dates which rarely happened. So, we rarely dated properly.

Since MRP, I know deep down that I am not creepy, so I can care less what other may think (and I don't think they even think that anyways). I text directly to babysitters and setup dates with my wife. I will talk more openly with all women (I don't really flirt though) and am overall just more friendly.

Many here will talk about "catch and release". Essentially, it is approaching a random woman in public, gaming her, getting her phone number, and then just tossing the phone number after you obtain it. I can see the value in this as far as staying sharp. However, there is high risk to sabotaging a marriage. Meaning, even if you aren't cheating by having sex with this woman, it would be a tough sell to your wife to explain that you were "going to throw the phone number away". If the marriage has not turned around properly and you are ready to let it go anyways and it is your last ditch effort to save it then I think this approach can have merit. Just my opinion though. I think there are other ways to develop outcome independence. I do see the logic behind it though. It would be a difficult line for me to cross personally.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy

Integrating red pill theory and Christianity can be helpful in behavioral terms. But you must keep in mind the ontological limitations of red pill theory. “Christianity” has been thoroughly feminized, but that was only possible after it was rationalized, institutionalized, and ritualized in the West. In other words, genuine faith, along with its supernatural power, is not taught or demonstrated in the church visible. Genuine faith, along with it signs and wonders, is found here and there. It can be experienced by you no matter what state your marriage is in. In fact, the old wisdom taught that marriage was the Lord’s primary natural grace to teach us self-denial.

If I take your words at face value, it seems that you have actually exercised self-denial in relationship to sex. You gave up porn. That is no small matter. The Lord also led you to implement changes in your life style that harmonize with red pill theory, but are also in accordance with biblical wisdom. The Lord has been preparing you for a deeper walk with him.

Red pill theory is essentially a method towards self-actualization through sexual strategy. Genuine, New Testament Christianity, is about walking by faith in self-denial. That is not appealing to the flesh, at least not on the surface. But when we give up our life (“whoever losses his life for my sake will find it,” “deny yourself, pick your cross and follow me,” etc.) the Lord gives us his life: “I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me” (Galations 2:20).

The good news is that the Lord’s life is beyond anything we can possibly imagine. His indescribable love, joy, peace, and holiness become ours when we deny ourselves and simply receive it from him by faith. I have experienced this myself, and I discovered it while suffering through a difficult marriage. Our sexual gratification, believe it or not, is not a high priority to the Lord. He is much more concerned with our faith and walk with him. Being satisfied with our earthly life is not exactly a recipe for spiritual progress. This is evident in the Bible and in all the spiritual classics.

I write this to you because I believe you are on the right path spiritually, and that is what matters most. Jesus said to seek first his kingdom and all else will be added unto us. As I went after the Lord, he took care of my wife and our marriage. You already know that you cannot effect any change in your wife directly either by your actions or words. Whatever her issues are, they can only be healed by the Lord or changed by the action of her will. Your job is go after the Lord and leave everything else to him. That is walking by faith. Peter was able to walk on the water as long as he was looking at Jesus, but as soon as he took his eyes off the Lord he began to sink. Do not look at the problems, at the wife, the waves, or the storms. Keep looking to Christ.

There is a strong tradition in Christianity, and other spiritual traditions, in regards to eschewing sexual gratification for spiritual purposes. I am not going to say much about that beyond my experience that there is definitely some truth behind those teachings. For the natural man, the flesh, sex is the peak of human experience. But it pales in comparison to what the Lord gives us through Christ by faith. I encourage you to reconsider the sexual state of your marriage in light of its possible spiritual benefits and the path that the Lord might be leading you down towards knowing him in a deeper way and discovering the power of faith to overcome all difficulties in life. “O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusts in him” (Psalm 34:8).

[–]screechhaterRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You are hiding behind religion. Pure and simple.

You are an unhappy man that married broken and you are now stuck in your own "platos cave"

When you decide your life is worth living for you let us know.

I bet you can't game the SO because kino and game are kino are dirty

Quit referencing the Bible, pull divorce case off the table and demand counseling. Clean yourself up and prepare to dread today. Otherwise be a whiny fool She has been controlling you with sex.

[–]TopOfTheEighth0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

It's important to note that due to our faith, divorce is not an option

Well, you're fucked.

I'm primarily aroused by the female orgasm, so we've only had sex 2-3 times in our marriage where she hasn't finished

I came from your other thread to check your post history. The fact that you're on here talking about this and act like it's so important to you shows that your frame is weak as hell and that you are pretty much obsessed with your wife's approval, which seems to be a major downfall for you.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

frame is weak as hell and that you are pretty much obsessed with your wife's approval

I would have argued this point with you a couple days ago ... but after finishing NMMNG, I must agree. My frame is only strong outside my marriage (to be successful as an attorney it has to be). As soon as I get home, I'm into caregiver mode and try to be low maintenance and all that.

[–]TopOfTheEighth0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Hi5. Sounds like you're starting to get it.

As soon as I get home, I'm into caregiver mode and try to be low maintenance and all that.

This is exactly what's happening over you DEERing to your wife over the chat thing in the other thread btw.

[–]Aaren_Augustine0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Put the MRP sidebar on rotation. Put lifting heavy on rotation.

This will help you internalize a more dominant mindset and remove the one you got.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Christianity is just one woman's lie that spiraled completely out of control. Cleanliness is next to fake godliness, right?



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