NMMNG, Frame, and recovery

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March 18, 2017

After a visceral first reaction to NMMNG, I did full initial read-through. I'm now going back through the book very thoroughly with the goal of re-reading 2-3 chapters a week and working all of the related Breaking Free activities to the best of my abilities.

In Chapter 3 I saw so much of my own behavior in the section "Seeking The Approval of Women". Glover introduces the concept he calls the "possibility of availability" where a Nice Guy constantly monitors a woman's sexual availability. Now, this is something I can look back and see has been my standard operating procedure.

In my "Nice Guy Syndrome" recovery, I clearly need to rewrite some internal scripts. So, the question becomes "How do I do that?". Here is a relevant quote from that chapter:

Seeking women's approval requires Nice Guys to constantly monitor the possibility of a woman's availability. The possibility of availability is a term I use to describe the subjective measure of a woman's sexual availability. Since Nice Guys see sex as the ultimate form of acceptance, and they believe a woman must be in a good mood before she will have sex, these men are constantly diligent to not do anything that might upset a woman whom they desire. In addition, if a woman they desire is angry, depressed, or in a bad mood, they believe they must do something quickly — lie, offer solutions, sacrifice self, manipulate — to fix it.

The possibility of availability extends beyond just sex. Since Nice Guys have been conditioned by their families and society to never do anything to upset a woman, they are hyper-vigilant in responding to the moods and desires of women they don't even plan on having sex with.

Glover, Robert (2010-11-10). No More Mr. Nice Guy (p. 42). Kindle Edition.

OK - so far so good. It is clear here that what is required is Outcome Independence. And naturally OI comes right back to Frame. In the case of "Nice Guy Syndrome", this lack of Frame regarding women seems to originate in the distorted behaviors we developed in childhood. So, from a practical perspective, I am trying to figure out how to take positive action (acta non verba) to recover from these lifelong scripts. Since I live "in my head" a lot, this is challenging.

So, my question is this: "Is recovery from from these long ingrained patterns really about developing Frame?". In other words, I don't think recovery from this is going to be about just recognizing I have been doing it, but doing something different. Any suggestions on how you consistently practice doing the new behaviors so they become the new default pattern of thinking?

The only times I can think back to where I was successful with long-term with behavior change was when I could make the "doing" part concrete and not just in my head.

Post Information
Title NMMNG, Frame, and recovery
Author sixdownsevenup
Upvotes 9
Comments 24
Date 18 March 2017 03:29 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/206390
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/604m5o/nmmng_frame_and_recovery/
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[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret7 points8 points  (3 children) | Copy

Initiate irrespective of her mood. Hell, hate fuck right after a good fight. Nice guys don't ride the feelz roller-coaster, because they don't even know it's in the amusement park.

If she says no, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Acting on desire is part of removing the "nice guy" mindset. Being proactive in your expression of what you want is the key to frame.

What do you want?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Seconded. I don't like them 100% of the time, but sometimes, fucking the bitchy attitude out of her is a satisfying feeling.

[–]sixdownsevenup[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Good stuff - and definitely a concrete action.

As an aside, something interesting I noticed (at least about myself) is that the monitoring of possibility of availability is not even about sex most of the time. It is about being in every woman's frame, and not mine. Now that I am aware of it, I catch myself doing it. As Glover said in the last paragraph of the quote, I do this whether or not the woman is someone that I could, or would, want to have sex with. It is bound up with seeking approval.

[–]A_RexRED KNIGHT0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thirded. Hate fucking after a big fight is intense AF.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy

Any suggestions on how you consistently practice doing the new behaviors so they become the new default pattern of thinking?

Much of this comes back to the recovering Nice Guy starting to do things he wants to do, or at least trying to do things he wants to do. The issue is not so much "what can I get"; it's "what do I want". ANd that's irrespective of what anyone else wants. This is important because the Nice Guy has spent much of his life denying himself what he wants and doing what others want, with the covert contract expectation that if he gives others what they want/need, they will give him what he wants/needs.

If you want to drink a finger or two of whiskey before bed, do that.

If you want to take your girl out for a weekend, do that. IF you want to stay in, do that.

If you want to fuck, initiate and escalate. If you get shot down or she says no, you go do something else you want to do.

You ask yourself "what do I want?" and then you do those things.

[–]drty_prRed Beret3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

This right here is the hardest part for a nice guy to get over. Had some boys over for a hockey game last night. One of my buddies wives pulled up to pick him up right when the shoot out started. The anxiety in him to stay for the 5 minutes it took was killing him. Terrible state to have yourself in.

What's the worst that could possibly happen? She gets mad, you say "oh well" or STFU, the sun comes up tomorrow.

So for a nice guy to do what he wants, irrespective of his wifes opinion, is absolutely terrifying. This was the hardest part to shed for me. This also comes back around full circle to what OP is talking about. Rejectaphobia is simply being afraid of her opinion to your want.

Long story short: STOP GIVING A FUCK!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yes. Well put short version of NNMNG. +1

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

What's worked for me is to only initiate WHEN I want it. I choose when I want it and don't leave it up to her.

That started to give me a sense of power rather than always worrying about what she thought. Does that make sense?

A woman has golden pussy power -in her mind (that's what got us here to MRP) and if you choose when you want sex then you take her power away.

That's a motivating concept that can change long term behavior in my opinion.

If I am ambivalent about it I spent no energy on women's sexual availability -don't care. I have other things more important to spend my energy on and so should you

[–]mrpthrowa0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy

You're still in their frame if you're still evaluating what you want to do by whether or not in you're in their frame. You want to develop your own mission in life that is independent of anybody else, including your wife.

Imagine a supermarket 10 miles from where you are yeah? imagine a lady that works as a cashier there yeah? do you consider what she thinks when you go have a poo, work harder at work, fix your curtains, or cook your meal? No? same.

[–]sixdownsevenup[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

I am working on the idea that the things that help me DNGAF, OI and have Frame in themselves will gradually push out the dysfunctional NMMNG behaviors. Have you found that to be the case?

[–]ParadoxThatDrivesUs0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

It's everything. Everything reinforces everything else.

Lifting is the lynchpin, though. DYEL?

[–]sixdownsevenup[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Yes, several years of weight training to support Triathlon - but SL5x5 every other day from Jan 1 to a little over 3 weeks ago. Injured lower back and (another medical issue). Was up to 205lbs5x5 when injured (almost 1x bodyweight). It is amazing how important that has become to everything. It has really affected my mental state not being able to lift (relatively) heavy.

I think I can get back next week and give it a try with a 50-75% deload to see how my back does.

[–]zurgenfloggin0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Lifting solved most of everything for me. Still a bit to fix, but lifting drags frame with it, and attraction, and lots of alpha mindset.

[–]sixdownsevenup[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

It's clearly a key element. I have been dealing with some other issues aside from my back, and I can feel my mental state shifting because I haven't been lifting. Other workouts don't have the same effect.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

1 month for every year of being beta

[–]sixdownsevenup[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yes - I understand that well. This will be a multi-year project.

[–]sixdownsevenup[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Developing mission is probably the critical missing link for me. In previous OYS posts I call myself out on not having a mission.

[–]ParadoxThatDrivesUs3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Start small. What's your mission for today? For the next 30 minutes? Answer that question as best you can, and then live purposefully.

You can spend years of your life drifting, waiting for the grand mission to descend upon you, and feeling like nothing really matters until you finally have that vision. For some guys, it's better to develop the discipline of living with a purpose, even if you feel like that purpose may ultimately be pointless, just to keep yourself ink motion. Over time, the mission will come.

[–]sixdownsevenup[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is some wisdom right here. Church.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Have you identified the behaviors you want to change?

[–]sixdownsevenup[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

That is a great question. I am working on that now. In my case there are quite a few, so I am trying to focus on trying to identify simple new behaviors that might impact multiple old one.

For instance, I think that I am going to add an OYS goal of constantly asking myself - what do I want. Especially reminding myself of this when I am faced with decisions - instead of thinking of everyone else. This can probably help develop Frame better than trying to extinguish multiple old behaviors around pleasing, monitoring availability, seeking external validation etc...

My hope is that those dysfunctional behaviors will get pushed out when the new behaviors have better results.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I like the question...but it still seems like you're lost. It sounds like you are hoping unknown new behaviors are supposed to replace vague old behaviors; and that you'll somehow be in a better place when you're done..

It's called a MAP for a reason. You have to know where you are, and where you want to go. You don't walk along the street in an unknown part of town and just say, "I'll walk this direction, I hope it takes me somewhere fun."

[–]sixdownsevenup[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'll be the first to admit that I am still a bit lost (which is why I posted this). That said, I am not aimless. It's clear to me which general direction to head in, and I'm doing that.

Your comment is fair based on my reply. As far as I can tell I am a rather severe case of NMMNG and as a result have been heavy on the beta behaviors all my life. Even in my late teen's early 20's when I worked in the outdoor industry leading rock/ice climbing and backpacking, what little Alpha I had going on was rapidly swamped by all the Nice Guy/beta behaviors.

Since childhood, these behaviors have been the basis of my world outlook - so it doesn't surprise me that I am struggling right now as to how to jettison those and form new healthier ones. For the past several years I have been having my eyes opened. First to AWALT and then more recently (since Jan 17 with the help of MRP) to my own issues. So, again, I am focusing working through NMMNG in a detailed way. I am also doing therapy with a red-pill friendly counselor.

Also - I am working a MAP, and in the process of revising it.

[–]zurgenfloggin0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Man, this is a good post. I have read that book twice and have somehow downplayed this one point, probably because it hits home too much.

Next time I read she is "not in the mood" I am going to initiate. She says no, so what.

Jeesh this sub has helped me so many ways.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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