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To Game or Not To Game

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February 25, 2017
11 upvotes

Hello all -

How can you tell whether it's counter-productive, in the context of improving your marriage, to game your wife?

Context: We're both 37, married 5 years. I've been a career-beta with just about the worst-ever case of oneitis. Two years ago we were at MAYBE sex 1x a month; after our second kid was conceived we didn't have sex until just a month or two ago (a 1.5 year dry spell). Sex three times since then, all after big melt-down encounters where I more or less held frame for the first time since...well, ever.

Found MRP in November, lifting, reading, etc. Lost 10 lbs, body fat down to around 16% from near 22%, look better than I ever have at this point. Very successful with my own business. Grooming and clothing games much improved, owning shit around the house, having a fantastic time with the kids, trying to set more direction for the family. My biggest challenges are holding frame, being assertive, and uncovering those deep covert contracts.

Background on Situation:

MRP is pretty big on gaming your wife, and rightly so - keeping things fun, flirting, etc. That's been a weak spot of mine, and after finally getting over at least the majority of my anger/butt-hurt phase, I started working on it. It's been even more of a focus since many MRP commenters thought I was going "rambo", doing too much pulling away.

(keep in mind that, throughout our relationship, including before MRP, I've always been the physically affectionate one, and so things like a hand on the thigh and so on are not out of the ordinary. These are almost never reciprocated, however).

I've been doing "drive by" touches, on her arm, legs, etc; going in for hugs and kisses throughout the day; tried the 10-second kiss a few times; started teasing her/making occasional sexual comments, etc.

I am by no means a Don Juan, but I've never been particularly autistic about social interactions either. My feeling is that these attempts aren't the smoothest things anyone's ever seen, but probably aren't particularly terrible either.

I've also been initiating sex around 2-3 times a week.

I am rebuffed in every single one of these instances. She pulls away, turns her head, flat out says no, no engagement or humor whatsoever to any of my flirty comments.

To do any of this, I need to constantly invade her space - even in terms of how she angles or holds her body, she is almost never "open" to me, making any attempt to be physically affectionate feel incredibly awkward.

Example 1:

She had had a particularly emotional day with the kids the other day, so after I put them down I came into the kitchen and found her on her phone (she is always on her phone - it is a constant and impenetrable barrier between us). I said, "Hey - put that down a sec and let me give you a hug." I pulled her in, gave her a strong hug, hand on the back of her neck. "I know you had a tough day today. How're you doing?"

Silence. I pull back to look at her face and realize she'd been using Facebook over my shoulder the whole time. I say, in a goofy voice, "You're still using your phone? Good lord, woman!" laugh, go do my thing. A minute or two later she sought me out to chat about something else.

Most of my "game" attempts end similarly, or just end without any acknowledgement on my part at all.

Example 2:

I enter into our bedroom, after just putting our son down for his nap. My wife is changing and is bottomless (middle of the day, so this was unusual).

As I enter the room, I say, "Well, Mrs. Resolutions316, this is all very sudden - you really should buy me dinner first." Her eyes roll so hard I am worried for a moment they will pop out of her head and I'll have to fish them out from beneath the bed.

While eye-rolling could be done in a fun way, this was not fun, nor was she at all amused.


My Confusion:

I'm 100% on board with the idea that I fucked up our relationship by being so fucking beta for so fucking long. My relationship with my wife is a reflection of me, I'm with you on that.

I'm also working very hard on internalizing the idea that flirting does not equal sex, and most (but not all) of my engagements with my wife are just in-the-moment things.

But I feel like I can interpret this situation in two ways, in terms of how I proceed:

The OI-Sparring-Partner Model - My wife is my sparring partner, helping me improve my game. Either she'll come around, or she'll get me ready for when we split up.

Plus, every time I initiate/flirt, get rejected, and don't show pain/bitchiness, I'm building up my sense of OI and showing her I don't require her for validation. (I'm there sometimes, and probably not there others, but I'm 100x better than I was).

The Pursuer-Distancer Model - then again, maybe constantly pursuing my wife and getting rebuffed is not a great idea.

If she simply isn't attracted to me, no amount of "game" is going to fix that. If she was never attracted to me to begin with, even more so.

Constantly pursuing her in this instance simply causes her to run further away. It also reinforces her frame - she's the one who's desired, I'm the one who desires her.

In that case, maybe pulling back - stopping the physical affection and just focusing on myself - is the better move.

I'm down to improve my own game and OI, but am I doing that at the expense of my actual marriage?


So, TL;DR:

If your wife rejects or ignores all of your advances, including fairly ild kino/non-sexual touch, do you continue to pursue game, in hopes that she'll eventually come around? Or is that a sign that it's perhaps too early to focus on that at all, and instead you should pull back and focus more on yourself?

Thanks.


Post Information
Title To Game or Not To Game
Author resolutions316
Upvotes 11
Comments 49
Date 25 February 2017 11:37 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/206479
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/5w74pz/to_game_or_not_to_game/
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Red Pill terms found in post:
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Comments

[–]ford_contourRed Beret10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy

Great question. This gives us an opportunity to clarify:

A man has a responsibility to game his life partner. She deserves his attention and playfulness and sexual advances every bit as much as she deserves his thoughtfulness, leadership, kindness, loyalty and strength.

That said, a wife that's consistently turning down sex isn't a man's life partner at all - she's either "future life partner" or "future ex-wife".

A man in OPs situation should do some serious soul searching about how the best version of himself treats his future ex-wife: That is, how he wants to look back and remember himself, after the possible divorce.

He's likely to find he wants to remember that he was gentle with her; as honest as possible with her, helpful when she was trying to get her feet under her, etc.

He will typically find that these are acceptable ways to treat his future soul mate, too, in case that's who she turns out to be. The golden rule is excellent, like that.

Tl;dr: You have an obligation to sexually game your monogamous life partner. In a sexually inactive relationship, you have no such obligation and should feel free to focus on worshipping harder at the iron temple. In the mean time, be kind. You can revisit the topic of sex later when ready.

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Very well said!

[–]mrpthrowa8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

The reality is that your wife got so used to her female privilege (do nothing, don't put out, and expect him to do everything) for such a long time it is second nature. It will take her a while to get out of it.

Just proceed through the dread levels very smoothly. Keep a cheery demeanour and keep working on yourself. Slowly she will realise she has to keep up or get tossed aside, by virtue of how awesome you are.

Don't over think this gaming. Don't over do it. Do what is natural - you are a man and you flirt. Full stop. No justification, no whatever the fuck she thinks about it. You would game any woman you have available.

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy

Your question is framed around her response, and thus her frame. Ask yourself instead what you want to do; that is, what action most advances your personal improvement, and do that. Do what best serves you.

Was she ever really attracted to you? Your story is very consistent with a post-Wall woman who panicked and married a beta provider she wasn't very attracted to, hoping that she could grow into it, or at least could stomach it ... and it seems maybe she can't. It is unclear that she will ever be attracted to you, however alpha you become. She might, but investing energy toward bringing her around rather than toward making yourself the man you want to be seems like a fool's errand at this point.

You need to clarify for yourself exactly what your vision is for your life and marriage, precisely what your end goals are as you work your MAP, and quantify the minimum outcomes that you will require of your wife to stay in this marriage. If you study /u/BluepillProfessor's MRP journey, you will find that, while he was very deliberate and put in well more than a year of dedicated work to get to his "fuck me or fuck you" Main Event, he knew early on exactly what his goals were, and exactly what he would require of his wife to stay in the marriage. It is time for you, OP, to reach the same clarity for yourself, and to focus your energies on best getting yourself to the place where you can clearly state your expectations, evaluate her response, and make your stay or go decision, rather than primarily on trying to attract her to you.

You sound like a Type 2 Dysfunctional Captain: The Captain and the Constantly Complaining Passenger. As /u/jacktenofhearts says there, Fogging, Negative Inquiry, and Negative Assertion will get you through the garden-variety shit tests and shitty comfort tests, but you will need to form, express, and sell your vision, or narrative, of what your life and marriage together should be. For example, I find it ludicrous that a SAHM (or SAHD) isn't expected and expecting to take care of the lion's share of the household chores like washing the dishes, because each partner in a marriage should be contributing greatly and in reasonably balanced total effort to the sum of tasks required to run the family enterprise, however you decide to divvy them up. That's my narrative, and my wifes's; what is yours? Why doesn't your wife expect this of herself, as she expects it of you? Why doesn't she know your narrative about what is expected of a spouse, a parent, a wife, a husband? Why don't you insist on the fundamental boundaries defined by your narratives?

I see no clear picture from you as to what your vision and narratives are, and I suspect that you don't even have one because you have spent your entire life reactively trying to please others rather than pursuing your own vision in your relationships. As a successful businessman, though, you must have some capacity for forming a vision, articulating it in a narrative to motivate and instruct your customers and employees, executing toward your goals, evaluating performance, and cutting off efforts and people that don't contribute sufficiently to your bottom line. Apply this capacity in your broader life, your relationships, your MAP, and your marriage.

[–]A_RexRED KNIGHT0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Was she ever really attracted to you? Your story is very consistent with a post-Wall woman who panicked and married a beta provider she wasn't very attracted to, hoping that she could grow into it, or at least could stomach it ... and it seems maybe she can't. It is unclear that she will ever be attracted to you, however alpha you become

This was my first thought too. OP, create your MAP and follow it. Improve like your life depends on it. Obtain OI and abundance mentality, and accept the fact that your wife may never come around to you, as it seems she has never truly desired to fuck you. It stings, but that's OK. You're doing this for you. Use her as a sounding board. Hell, her constant rejections are even good practice for IDGAF mentality for when you're ready to game strange. You'll face plenty of rejection then as we all do, so it shouldn't phase you at all (which is part of not being unattractive). Follow the dread steps as outlined by BPP, and his MAP is a good one for you to use as an example. She comes along, or she doesn't. Zero fucks given.

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I see no clear picture from you as to what your vision and narratives are, and I suspect >that you don't even have one because you have spent your entire life reactively trying to >please others rather than pursuing your own vision in your relationships. As a successful >businessman, though, you must have some capacity for forming a vision, articulating it in >a narrative to motivate and instruct your customers and employees, executing toward your >goals, evaluating performance, and cutting off efforts and people that don't contribute >sufficiently to your bottom line. Apply this capacity in your broader life, your relationships, >your MAP, and your marriage.

Ironically, I do have a very-specifically spelled out vision, but it's more for my life in general, rather than out relationship in particular. It also assumes that she is there - i.e., it's a vision for my marriage to her, not for the marriage I want in particular.

I'm going to revisit that and really think it through. Thanks, also, for the links.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (12 children) | Copy

Dude...you're coming at this as "how do I best influence her behavior?" Read that again and make sure it sinks in.

Example 1 you are being a white knight. Did she ask for your comfort? No? I mean even when woman are overtly complaining to you, you deflect, joke,, simply listen, or amplify unless she's specifically asking for a solution. I even ask sometimes if she keeps harping on a topic, "Do you want a solution from me or are you just venting?". Comfort and solutions are a close to the conversation and her feelings. Have you read The Way of the Superior Male? She doesn't want her feelings to end.

Example 2...you will get that eye roll even after you've turned you're marriage around. She's not always going to smirk at your sex jokes. It does help if you've shown for awhile (read top posts, you'll see in a lot of cases there's a SERIOUS lag time between when you change yourself and when your wife responds to that change) that you got your shit together. Are you at dread level 5? Are you the man of the house, she defers to you on most decisions, and you have a great life outside of her? If not...why should she even respond to you?

Now then...it really is kind of a buzz kill when you're going around your house giving off good vibes and she's just devouring them like a black hole In that case...continue on....because YOU like to give off good vibes. Remember this is all for you, not her. Go out and give off those good vibes to some other peoole. Friends, girls, whatever. See how the rest of the world responds to your great attitude and use that knowledge in your decision making process when deciding whether to keep your wife around.

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Actually, your reply points out a few things I find really perplexing, and I'd love some clarification, if you're game.

Dude...you're coming at this as "how do I best influence her >behavior?" Read that again and make sure it sinks in.

I totally get this from a general, self-improvement perspective. But in this instance, I'm trying to get her to have sex with me. No? Isn't that what flirting/game is about? I don't, for example, flirt with my employee, even though she's cute - because I don't want and wouldn't accept sex from her.

So, is engendering a specific reaction not the goal, here?

Example 1 you are being a white knight. Did she ask for your >comfort? No? I mean even when woman are overtly complaining to >you, you deflect, joke,, simply listen, or amplify unless she's >specifically asking for a solution. I even ask sometimes if she keeps >harping on a topic, "Do you want a solution from me or are you just >venting?". Comfort and solutions are a close to the conversation and >her feelings. Have you read The Way of the Superior Male? She >doesn't want her feelings to end.

(note: I read WOTSM but didn't get much out of it. I got the feeling it was more attuned to the later stages of this whole process, and I couldn't connect much of what he discussed with my actual life. I filed it under "come back to this later.")

This is another one I have issues with. My wife had a really tough day - she had actually sent me a number of depressed/hysterical texts, which I mostly ignored due to advice on here ("only text for logistics", etc.)

Now, in that situation, do I actually joke around about her feelings, or the broader issue (the kid's behavior)? If someone's upset, isn't throwing an opposite emotion in their face just cruel? Or am I fundamentally misunderstanding the nature of female emotions? (I confess, I've read a number of things about the differences between female and male emotional states, but I'm having a lot of trouble really understanding/internalizing it.)

I appreciate the feedback.

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm trying to get her to have sex with me. No? Isn't that what flirting/game is about?

Sometime, someday, maybe, but probably not right now. Flirting is for expressing your standing interest in her as a sexual partner, not just your desire for sex right now.

So, is engendering a specific reaction not the goal, here?

So no, it is not.

I don't, for example, flirt with my employee, even though she's cute - because I don't want and wouldn't accept sex from her.

Some people flirt with everyone; when done tastefully, it is called "charm."

Now, in that situation, do I actually joke around about her feelings, or the broader issue (the kid's behavior)?

Yes, it's called gallows humor. Gallows humor has been described as a witticism in response to a hopeless situation.

If someone's upset, isn't throwing an opposite emotion in their face just cruel?

Rough days are not infrequent with young kids, and a parent can't avoid dealing with it. Humor helps; you can't fix it, but you can give her an emotional boost and relief through humor.

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy

Spent the last 45 minutes or so clicking through a link vortex based on your link and found this post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/43rko2/im_having_a_rough_patch_and_need_some_insight/czlhze0/

...starting to realize where this whole process went wrong right from the beginning. Back to the drawing board so I can rethink this a bit.

[–]RBuddDwyerRed Beret2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy

...starting to realize where this whole process went wrong right from the beginning. Back to the drawing board so I can rethink this a bit.

Get out of your head. God, it's like reading my own journal entries from back in the beginning. Looking back on it, what I did wrong was not the specific "I did this, and she did not do what I expected." It's not that. You are too much in your head. It's hard to describe right now, and I will try to flesh this out more in the near future, but the best I can say for now is to go read The Book of Pook again, but this time think of the overall theme: it's not about her, it's about you.

Edit: So if my read on you is correct, then you are prone to start running down rabbit holes just like I am. I'm just going to throw this out there, half-baked, as a Hail Mary of sorts. Stop trying to force things with her. You are too much in your head obsessed with what you need to do to get the reaction you want out of her. Pull back. Go monk mode for a bit. But rather than focus on game, relationship dynamics, MRP, TRM, etc... Focus on getting yourself in the right direction. Stop reading, ruminating, planning, and worrying about what the correct play is with her, and just focus on getting your own head on straight. This is what I am doing right now. I am doing that with daily mindfulness mediation. I'm reading the book, "10% Happier" by Dan Harris, and what is becoming clear to me is that Stoicism is the key for me. Specifically, Stoic mindfulness. I will elaborate on this more sometime in the near future, but suffice it to say that I am getting a lot of insight by approaching Stoicism from the Buddhist perspective. I'm almost done with the Harris book, and the closer I get to the end I find myself saying more and more: "You are describing Stoicism you idiot! Stoicism is the answer you are looking for! (On a side note, the working title for his book was, "The Voice in my Head is an Asshole." That title is spot on for me.)

So I throw this little tangent out there in the hopes that maybe you are enough like me that this will click. That if you are prone to go run down a new rabbit hole, and you choose to follow me down this path, that you will wind up with the same insights I have found so far and save yourself a lot of time. If it doesn't work for you, then it's your fault for following the advice of some anonymous guy on the internet whose chose an account name that is somewhat unsettling if you really start to think about it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I was actually looking for this link to bring this into this thread...I actually find myself thinking (ha) about the "Chad Dialogues" a lot.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

The voice in my head is an asshole

Caught my attention there.

[–]RBuddDwyerRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I know. It really simplified things for me there. I always had a general understanding of your inner voice and where it comes from. When I started looking into REBT / Stoicism, it clicked for me that I can actually just see the voice for what it is and just ignore it. But after delving more into buddhist meditation / mindfulness, I'm learning more and more about how to deal with the voice, and my mind in general, to get a better handle over it. The book itself is mostly Dan's story about the long path he followed in search of happiness, and how he wound up at buddhist meditation practices to get a better handle on himself. He also writes about his struggles to reconcile something that is enshrouded in Eastern Mysticism with his Western, secular rational beliefs. (Told from the perspective of a hard-nosed reporter who is only interested in the truth.)

Where I have gained the most from it so far is in getting a better idea of exactly what Stoicism means with being in the present. It showed me that there is a much deeper level to the idea of forgetting the past and not worrying about the future. An example is this quote by Marcus Aurelius:

“Concentrate every minute like a Roman— like a man— on doing what’s in front of you with precise and genuine seriousness, tenderly, willingly, with justice. And on freeing yourself from all other distractions. Yes, you can— if you do everything as if it were the last thing you were doing in your life, and stop being aimless, stop letting your emotions override what your mind tells you, stop being hypocritical, self-centered , irritable. You see how few things you have to do to live a satisfying and reverent life? If you can manage this, that’s all even the gods can ask of you.”

I used to take that to mean just "dont' get distracted." But after the Harris book (and some related research), I got a much deeper insight. He is talking not about just doing one thing at a time, he's talking about experiencing this very moment, free from the distractions thrown at you by The Asshole in your Head. It's mindfulness. Lots of quotes by Epictetus also now make more sense from this perspective. Most of my other insights came from this article as well. I'm in the midst of sorting this out, but I think I'm onto something here.

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

We definitely sound similar. Don't know if your approach is the same, but whenever I hit a problem in life ("I need to make more money!" or "My wife won't have sex with me!") I:

  1. Download the top ten books on the subject
  2. Read the shit out of them
  3. Start an Evernote notebook and collect highlights
  4. Process the highlights into an intellectual framework
  5. Break the framework down into an 80/20 of effective techniques or goals
  6. Break the goals/techniques into "next steps"
  7. Find the metrics that measure progress
  8. Implement next steps and monitor progress and metrics and spreadsheets and read more books and...

JESUS fucking CHRIST.

I mean, that's been an INCREDIBLY effective mindset to have for pretty much everything I've put my mind to. But it seems like that's not a great mindset here, because the very act of externalizing the problem to my wife and then working on our relationship puts me into a reactive, validation-seeking frame.

And that, of course, has been the real problem all along.

Anyway. Working on mindset, sans any goal that depends on my wife's reaction. Will definitely read more into Stoicism - I've read Marcus but nothing else. Started waking up at 430 this week in order to get meditation time in. Always open to other suggestions as well...but man, is it hard to turn off that goal-seeking behavior.

[–]RBuddDwyerRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, we're on the same path here, except I start to lose interest and get distracted somewhere between 3 and 4, and just decide to start over again with number 1 using a different subject (or replow old ground with a new shear and horse, because this time I'll get it...)

I realize now that for me, this is just mental masturbation. A convenient excuse to not just do the work. Couple that with the fact that the work I want to do is not the work I should be doing. The more I plow into mindfulness (and link it back to Stoicism), the more I uncover what is going on in my mind, and understand what is happening. The more I try to figure your problems out, the more I understand my own. I know the answer is to get out of my head, I just have to get there.

I mean, that's been an INCREDIBLY effective mindset to have for pretty much everything I've put my mind to.

The more I think about this, the more I realize that this statement is the problem, not the solution. Stop obsessing over mindset, that's future thinking. Focus on the now. What can I do right now?

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Is the PROCESS the mistake, or the GOAL?

If instead of a goal of working on my relationship with my wife, you chose a goal of becoming the kind of man (most) women desire, or become a pook, might your incredibly effective process still work for you here?

[–]trp_dude1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Ah, Jackten... I miss him too.

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy

She senses you're still needy. Your attempts to make her feel better after a bad day with the kids smells like a build up to something else you might want. So she doesn't really give a fuck what you want so figured she might as well play with her phone.

The odds are you aren't as good as flirting as you think you are and it's not evening registering to her after you being a puss so long. It's just you still being more affectionate than her hoping to get some sex.

Perhaps be nice to her going forward but engage in some monk mode. Don't go full on autistic but pull back on the huggy lovey stuff just enough to reset everything in your mind and hers. Feel what's it's like to be on your own to some degree. Some of the affection you're pouring on her likely still has some validation stench to it. So filter that out and come back fresh.

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

This was kind of my feeling. That's more or less what I was doing, but that resulted in some major comfort seeking testing/explosions.

If I'm being honest, Part of me is also a little worried that by pulling back I'll be putting a bullet in the relationship - because she certainly isn't doing anything on her end. That may just be the way things go, I guess.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy

If all it takes is you leaving the house for an afternoon to cause divorce, do you really want to stay married?

You overestimate your importance.

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy

Find the balance. Not initiating sex for a bit should be irrelevant to her based on what you described above. If it does bother her that you've stopped for a bit, then tell her go get naked and you'll sort things out real quick.

Be normal but just chill on pouring out non stop affection. Feel what it's like to just you in your own skin for a while.

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Oh, I certainly don't think that she'll care if I stop initiating. Not at all.

I was speaking more of general affection-display, comfort-type stuff. I think you're right that a balance is necessary - I went too far in cutting her off previously, but still need to be sure I'm not the only one ever demonstrating affection.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy

My feeling is that these attempts aren't the smoothest things anyone's ever seen, but probably aren't particularly terrible either.

I am by no means a Don Juan, but I've never been particularly autistic about social interactions either.

then again

and most (but not all)

and most (but not all)

My biggest challenges are being assertive

Perhaps she finds your utter and complete lack of ability to be definitive as repugnant as I do? You've got to find a way to re-grow your spine man.

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

Uh - the examples you point out in my post are not a lack of assertiveness - they are my attempts to be accurate. I don't and won't claim success or totality in an instance where it isn't warranted.

That said, assertiveness is certainly my biggest issue, and I take your larger point.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

Do you realize you just did it again?

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

OK, so I originally had a shitty response typed in here, but deleted that and chilled out for a bit. My screaming child in the background probably had something to do with that.

What about my above response, in your opinion, is an issue? It's true: I display ambiguity in many statements. But that's because ambiguity is accurate in most cases. Or am I missing something?

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

My screaming child in the background probably had something to do with that.

You just can't stop qualifying and DEERing, can you?

Do you realize you just did it again?

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Explaining behavior is not NEVER acceptable. It's not acceptable in the face of emotionally manipulative behavior from another (if we're taking WISNIFG), but that isn't what's happening here.

I am always willing to admit when I may be wrong, and I'm open to the fact that I'm not an accurate judge of my own behavior. Fine. I'm just trying to understand the criticism.

Edit: I'm leaving my earlier comment for posterity, but looking back on earlier posts I now see the hamstring going on. Point taken.

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's your need to explain and qualify that's symptomatic of a larger problem. Telling us that your kid was screaming in the background is irrelevant information to us in this context, so you said it for you (to partially excuse yourself for not owning your shit under stress), not to clarify the situation for us so as to advance the discussion.

It's a tell that you're insecure.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm deliberately holding my replies because you did the research, j10 gave you some brick and mortar, and I look forward to seeing what you build with it.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

At some point you are going to have to face the fact, that either she can jump on board or not to the improving you. But, in fact it is going to take some time and literally it's not about her, it's about you. The changes and open eyes will get bigger and the anger will ebb and flow, but that's life. Just take it easy and look @ the fun things in life and invite her to join you.

What is the MRP rule ? 1 month to every year. But, that is not hard and fast, and then again it actually goes a little faster for the guy that get's out of her frame and sincerely shoves butt hurt down and fakes it until he makes it and is OI. Totally bitchin' and she can't rock you

With all that and the other comments, what do you want ? NO. not what you want her to do, to react to your changes, but what is it that you want ?

GO GET IT

[–]trp_dude1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy

OK my friend, in an earlier post, you said:

I own my own business, my wife is a SAHM. I work four days a week and handle the kids on Monday. Every morning I get up with the kids, make breakfast, clean them up, change diapers, do as many dishes as possible, etc, before getting out the door for gym/work at 8AM.

So, have you stopped doing that? Is she doing all the kid work, cooking, and cleaning? Have you stopped being the wife in the relationship?

I ask because so long as you're being the wife, letting her walk all over you, she will never respect you.

People here are trying to help you. You need to provide pertinent information. Gaming means jack if you're still acting like a woman. Game means jack if you're not lifting.

How much can you lift? How much do you lift? How much are you gaming women?

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy

Well, I still do he chores described above. Cooked and did the dishes tonight, in fact.

But I've been told on here many times to just own shit around the house, as if I was single. And I'd do the dishes if I was single, so I do them.

As for lifting, I've been lifting steadily since November. I certainly look the best I've ever looked, including when I met my wife. But I'm fairly far off from where I want to be. (Maybe 16-17% bf?)

Not sure how to take your comment, other than it was too early, attraction wise, to worry about gaming the wife, which I think is pretty on point. Other people have pointed out the chores/"being the wife" issue, but I don't know how to address that within the context of taking care of what needs to be taken care of around the house.

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy

But I've been told on here many times to just own shit around the house, as if I was single.

MRP also says don't do choreplay.

You're applying advice for a Type 1 Dysfunctional Captain to a Type 2 Dysfunctional Captain situation, where it is exactly the wrong advice. If you read, for example, /user/GargantuaBlarg29's epic confession and redemption post, you will find a man-child who literally needed to own his shit. Unless you're bullshitting us, you already own your shit, and hers, too. You need to back off on the choreplay, not do more of it.

MRP is a great toolbox, but not all tools are useful for a given job. Application of the wrong tool to the wrong problem may cause even more damage. Apply the ideas here thoughtfully to your specific situation, rather than mindlessly throwing every tool at it all at once, hoping that at least one will happen to work; you can break things that way, or at least waste a lot of time and energy.

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

holy FUCK

I read this post near when I first started in MRP. Right? Read it, saved it, moved on.

Coming back, Captain #2 is EXACTLY my life now - right down to the complaining about stress, no one supports her, etc.

FFFUUUUucccckkkkk man. Thanks for pointing this out. This is definitely hitting me at just the right time.

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

I have someone like you who works for me. Very energetic; always eager to get right to work on whatever task I assign. When I ask him to draft a report to a customer, I take extra time to explain the larger context: "This customer cares a lot about X, so make sure to emphasize Y. They don't really care about feature Q like most other customers do because of Z, so don't discuss that, etc." I take the time to explain the whys as well as the whats so that he can learn the nuances of our business and become more independent and effective. However, I can see his eyes glaze over as he tunes out the explanations; I can tell he's just thinking "emphasize Y, leave out Q; emphasize Y, leave out Q."

So for the next report, when I tell him "write a report about the same topic as the last one for this other customer; you can just modify the previous report, but these guys care a lot about Z and X isn't as important to them, so change it accordingly." And the draft I get has nothing about Q in it, and too much about Y. When I remind him that Z is important here means he needs to discuss Q as I explained last time, he says "I'm sorry, I missed that; tell me what you want me to do." I sigh internally and say "discuss Q; talk less about Y."

I keep this guy around because he's energetic and the majority of his job is routine tasks that he executes diligently, but after several years he understands nothing more about our business than he did after the first few weeks. I always have to check his customer-facing work because he often gets the nuances completely wrong. He doesn't improve, and he's not promotable, because he's too focused on rushing off and doing rather than on understanding so that he can figure out on his own how to do it right.

I'm sure I've already lost your attention, /u/resolutions316, because you seem to be exactly like this, and my story here doesn't have a specific action item you can immediately grasp and run off right away and do. I bet that in your 'INCREDIBLY effective mindset' you speed-read through those ten books extracting your highlights, promptly forgetting everything else, and the highlights themselves are forgotten as soon as you have reduced them to the 'next steps' and 'metrics', and that while you're energetically executing your detailed plan and checking progress against your immediate milestones and metrics, you never raise your figurative head out of the trenches and look to see whether you're getting any closer to that larger life goal that started you down this path in the first place.

I can imagine that when you met your wife, you thought "I could marry this girl" and planned out your next steps and milestones all the way to the altar and beyond, and while diligently executing never really stopped and reflected about whether this was actually turning out to be the right thing.

This earlier comment also mentioned the Type 2 Captain. You obviously read it because you responded, but you clearly didn't reflect on it or follow the link, or you would have had your revelation a day ago. Had you read it thoughtfully when you first came across it months ago, you might be months ahead of where you are now.

I'm just sayin', OP, that you may get better mileage out of reflecting a bit more and focusing on a deeper understanding of the concepts here, rather than on compiling a laundry list of techniques to mindlessly rush off and try.

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

When I replied to your earlier comment I hadn't read the link yet, just saved for later.

BUT

I can imagine that when you met your wife, you thought "I could >marry this girl" and planned out your next steps and milestones all >the way to the altar and beyond, and while diligently executing >never really stopped and reflected about whether this was really >turning out to be the right thing.

All this is VERY true, regardless. I tend to go back and forth - spend a lot of time reading and theorizing (stuck in my head), and then furiously implementing a plan for change (lacking in reflection). It's typically one or the other, without a healthy balance of the two.

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

and then furiously implementing a plan for change (lacking in reflection).

There is power, as well as danger, in this approach. Rather than fight against your own nature, perhaps you can specifically schedule periodic reflection tasks in your figurative or literal Gantt chart for

  • revisiting your overall goal

  • rereading the relevant primary sources, and

  • reevaluating (in light of your new knowledge and experiences you've gained in the process) whether the goal, plan, or approach should be changed.

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is a good idea. I have that already in place for the business, and it works well....I'm just putting in place a better overall goal set now (up till now, it's all been "get my wife to have sex with me,"), so I'll just set up a reevaluation schedule as well.

[–]resolutions316[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Your sex life isn't barren, which is nice, but only seems to happen >after an epic fight, which isn't so nice.

FUCK

[–]Sapphire_Jizz1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I think you should start fucking other women.

If she has zero interest in any form of intimacy, then she doesn't get to complain if you get your needs met elsewhere.

[–]sexyshoulderdevil75% Liquid Sarcasm5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Easy way out. He needs to learn how not to be a needy bitch first otherwise he'll just reset back to Go and have to start all over soon enough. If his wife still doesn't respond after he's sorted himself out, then he can decide how he wants his sex life to proceed going forward.

[–]SeamusAwl0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

When i want my wife off her phone, i take it from her and toss it to the side. She can get it back when i am done.

[–]wild_deer_man-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy

Her reactions are very disrespectful. It is true you have to earn respect, but since she is your wife and not some girl you just picked up, one of the ways to do so is to demand it.

For example: I would say that if she's not into sex it is perfectly fine, but I would not stand her responding to it with eye rolling, as if it is some ridiculous joke. By not responding harshly to such behavior you state "yes, you'r right, there is no reason for you to take me seriously as a man. Why would I expect sex from you."

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy

Verbally demanding respect just shows that you're not worthy of it.

Never make a demand that you can't enforce.

[–]wild_deer_man0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

How would you respond then? What leverage do I have to stop such responses?

[–]A_RexRED KNIGHT10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy

By not responding harshly to such behavior you state "yes, you'r right, there is no reason for you to take me seriously as a man. Why would I expect sex from you."

Your thinking is off. Giving any serious response to her eye roll is acting in her frame and giving credibility to her absurd response. Demanding respect in this situation comes off as desperate as fuck. You might as well just say "my feelings are really hurt because I depend on you for sex and you're laughing at me". See how pathetic that looks?

Ignore her eye roll, or make fun of it. Ask her in an exaggerated manner if she's having a seizure and needs you to call 911. Tell her the best cure is mouth-to-vag recussitation. She may laugh or eye roll harder, either way you're laughing, so who cares.

The serious "you will respect me" talk is to be used only if she crosses a major boundary, or if she blatantly disrespects you in front of, or to, others. her disrespecting you in privacy is a shit test. Blow that out with a laugh and a smile and go do something cool.



You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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