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Initiating leads to wife feeling guilty

by stew7000 | January 17, 2017 | askMRP

16 upvotes

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I've made sweeping changes over the course of the past couple months after 10 yrs of beta. Went from sleeping in to waking up and lifting 6 days a week (reading on day 7) at 5:30am, reading has replaced addictive phone use, on top of things around the house, working outside the home on a schedule, doing guy stuff with friends on a schedule and randomly to get out of the house. My wife is beginning to see me as the leader and knows that I'm not just on a "kick" but that this is real. That said, I initiate almost every day and get the hard no every time except once per week on the day we've generally set aside for sex. The latest attempt (and what I'm looking to you guys for help with) was last night and after the hard NO she said she goes to bed feeling guilty every night. In this case I STFU and went to bed, not angrily - just calmly and without being butt hurt as I've done each time I get rejected (either that or do something different or even leave the house - but haven't shown butt hurt emotion like I used to). How do I work with this guilt she is having? Does this mean things are working? I know she realizes she's lost her "I outwork you" card that I now own and won't let go of (I do tons of work around the house, help with kids, work out regularly, etc that's what I mean by outworking her) and I think this may be where her guilt comes. Her old response would have been, you're disgusting, you don't do anything to deserve sex - and now that those excuses are slipping away from her, guilt has set in for her. Need some help interpreting this and more importantly what to do next.


Post Information
Title Initiating leads to wife feeling guilty
Author stew7000
Upvotes 16
Comments 58
Date 17 January 2017 01:48 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/206643
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/5oi53c/initiating_leads_to_wife_feeling_guilty/
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Comments

[–]gettingmymojobackRed Beret24 points25 points  (2 children) | Copy

This was a common issue for me as well. Wife would constantly accuse me of "making her feel guilty" when I would initiate. Given that this is something I have not heard her say in at least the past 3-4 months I'll venture to offer my hypothesis.

She felt "guilty" for not wanting to fuck me, and feeling she SHOULD want to fuck me. She didn't want to fuck me, because she was not attracted to me anymore. End of story.

She obviously knew how bad I wanted it, and my lack of OI that was abundant at the time likely just added to her guilt.

When it was happening, I couldn't understand what was going on and just felt a lot of resentment. Now that the covert contract is gone, and I fully understand that attraction can't be negotiated, and that I have improved enough for her to WANT to fuck me again, the guilt card has ceased to come into play.

Continue improving, be attractive, truly internalize OI and you'll likely solve this problem.

[–]stew7000[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Gold. Thanks man. OI has been my weak point during the transition and I am highly focused on slaying that dragon. Yesterday I feel like I did well. And I can tell how shocked she is when I wake up the next morning and STILL go to the gym, STILL shower/shave/make sure I'm attractive, and STILL take care of shit overall. Hopefully the hamster moves to a sprint and sex life improves as the journey continues.

[–]gettingmymojobackRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Good job. Just keep putting in the hard work for yourself, not for her. The results with her will either come, or they wont. Either way, you'll be someone that somebody wants to fuck.

[–]ArchwingerRed Beret29 points30 points  (7 children) | Copy

Watch what women do, not what they say. Even your wife.

If your wife really and truly felt bad about not having sex with you, that's a really easy fix. She just has to have sex.

She doesn't want to have sex with you. She's doing the absolute minimum (once-a-week, scheduled duty sex) to be able to call the marriage a marriage, but anything more is off the table from her.

She doesn't feel guilty about not having sex or about rejecting you. She feels guilty because she's not attracted to you, even though you're probably a good guy on paper who does a lot for her.

This is not a good thing. A lot of wives "feel guilty" because they don't feel the way they're supposed to about their husbands, while their husbands still seem to feel that way about them. That guilt leads to her feeling like she owes you. Which builds up to resentment. Which builds up to "I love you but I'm not in love with you", or cheating to deliberately destroy the marriage, or just filing for divorce.

Three things you need to do:

First, continue working on you. Get hot. Keep your house in order. Advance professionally. Become a badass. Become a man lots of women would want, most likely your wife included. She might not come around, because she's very well-acquainted with the loser you and thinks you're the same loser who's just pretending to be something he's not.

Second, interact with other women. Both with and without your wife present. Get them flirting with you. Even when you do this in your wife's absence, the interactions will give you that swagger and that outcome-independence you need. And when your wife sees other women subtly flirting with you, she might come around. If she doesn't, at least you've got other women into you.

Third, stop giving a fuck and start being outcome independent. Really outcome independent. Not rolling over and going silent. Not storming out to your car and going out. Initiate with your wife, and if she rejects you, shrug, give her a kiss on the head, and go sand that shelf you're building in the garage or work on your car or paint a picture or read a book or anything except rolling over and stonewalling her or storming off in a huff (I know you're not actually doing those things, and you think you're displaying outcome independence by going to bed or going out -- but she is interpreting your behavior as being butt-hurt).

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy

This is not a good thing. A lot of wives "feel guilty" because they don't feel the way they're supposed to about their husbands, while their husbands still seem to feel that way about them. That guilt leads to her feeling like she owes you. Which builds up to resentment. Which builds up to "I love you but I'm not in love with you", or cheating to deliberately destroy the marriage, or just filing for divorce.

Fucking Red Yoda over here. Always appreciate your insight.

[–]bigk12345[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The paragraph you quoted just summarized why my LTR failed .

That is some wisdom right there.

[–]HerukaRising1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

OP, you should memorize what this guy says. Hell, I should memorize what this guy says.

One comment:

Third, stop giving a fuck and start being outcome independent. Really outcome independent.

This is a tricky one. Getting sex and not getting sex are not exactly identical outcomes. What has helped me is to think that not getting sex might, in the short term, be a better outcome. I learn things about myself, I learn things about my wife, I learn patience etc. In terms of the first part (working on yourself), this might actually be a much better outcome that getting some.

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

That's a great way to look at. Thanks man

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

This nails it, thank you. I love the kiss on the head idea. A lot of people in this thread are saying to abandon the scheduled sex. Your thoughts? I am definitely open to do that, but want to do it the right way. I've always seen it kinda like a scheduled couples massage - but I do think it's giving her reason to resist every other day I initiate (which is almost every day at this point).

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

The schedule is her schedule. Not yours.

IF you want it keep it. If you don't then don't.

You initiate when you want as you want.

Keep doing everything else. Eventually you will see the value she brings to you.

[–]midlifedick0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If you want to spin up the hamster wheel, go absent on scheduled sex night. Later " I had to take care of something I wanted to do"... "oh, nothing you would be interested in, good night"

[–]Leviticus596 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy

you're disgusting, you don't do anything to deserve sex . . .

She's still using it as a weapon, and it pisses her off to see that it's not working any more. It's only been a couple of months. Give it a while and see how things go. It'll take her a while to hamster through it.

[–]stew7000[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I agree. I'm in it for the long haul. Not expecting overnight changes but this does feel more positive.

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill13 points14 points  (1 child) | Copy

She feels guilty because yes you're doing well in her eyes but she can't muster up the tingles to fuck you. You're still not attractive in her eyes.

[–]stew7000[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yup. Makes sense. Can't fix 10 years in 2 months.

[–]dandar46007 points8 points  (7 children) | Copy

It's about attraction. She's still doing the bare minimum to keep you around hence the hard nos. You should cancel the scheduled sex. It may result in less sex in the short term but more in the long run.

Also 10 years of beta needs 10 months of alpha at best for her to get used to the new you. It may take longer than that.

[–]sh0ckley5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy

You should cancel the scheduled sex.

OP. This.

Genuine attraction is spontaneous.

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I agree. Thoughts on best way to cancel and tips on maintaining frame when I do?

[–]sh0ckley2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

When my relationship was in turmoil, I set up date nights. Result was a big covert contract for me and lots of schedule pressure for her to keep her pussy dry. Consistent shit storm.

One I day I said something like "date nights are gay, we'll go out when we feel like going out."

She said "but what if I wanna go out and you don't?" I said "then we don't go out." No DEER.

[–]Blunter-S-Thompson0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Ata boy sh0ck - Simple. Succinct. Stringent.

Stew.... bring a lot of pen an paper... you're going to need it.

"Then we don't go out."

END OF STORY.

[–]stew7000[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

How do I cancel it? I want to make sure I maintain frame and need to be ready for the "why?" and "I don't want to cancel it" comments that she'll throw.

[–]dandar46002 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

That's totally up to you. You're allowed to change your mind. My guess is that at this point she will welcome not having to fuck you every week. It will reduce her stress on those days and over time, she will no longer associate having to fuck you with doing chores.

[–]sh0ckley2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

"I'm no longer interested in scheduling sex. That's ridiculous. We'll fuck when we wanna fuck."

HER: Why?

[Broken Record] WISNIFG

HER: "but I don't waaana cancel it!!!"

YOU: "Then be ready the next time I slide my hand down your pants."

She can feel your fear of not blowing a load and does not want the burden of power her pussy has over you.

[–]atlhartRed Beret5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy

I'm no expert on comfort tests, but that's what it sounds like. You're wife is challenging you. She's seeing if Beta-you will come out to play. She's saying you make her feel guilty, cause she wants to see if Beta-Bucks is there to be an apologist. "Oh, I'm sorry honey. I won't be so sexual. I won't initiate. I won't seek what I want. You're my special snowflake."

That's what she's playing at.

Keep doing what you are doing. Not for power. Not for sex. But because you are a better you. You are lifting. You are reading. You are owning your shit. And you are going after what you want.

Whether or not you're wife follows...well, all I can say is that you are on the right path. Stay in your frame.

[–]stew7000[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Appreciated. I can definitely tell she is fishing for apologies constantly - wanting me to take responsibility for her feeelz. Any additional insight on handling the apology demands would be welcomed.

[–]innominating1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Just say, "that sucks" and move on.

[–]atlhartRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'm a newb on that front. You need to acknowledge and support her feelz without apologizing or taking responsibility for them.

Please share any lessons you learn as you learn to accomplish that.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

You already know the answer. No interpretation needed. Just have to accept it. Difficult I know but the truth will set you free and all that jazz.

Be more attractive and once you are even if she doesn't want to fuck you, some other woman will.

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Truth.

[–]GongShanks2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Sounds like it's working. I wouldn't sweat the guilt too much. It's her hamster. Sounds like it's starting to work for you rather than against. Nice job on the turnaround.

[–]stew7000[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks man. Staying with it. I love the changes thus far.

[–]mrpthrowa2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

What to do next is nothing, proceed as normal.

May be she feels guilty, may be she feels left out on a good fucking opportunity. Either way, ignore the fuck out of this "feeelz" request and proceed as normal. It's a shit test.

Let her figure her shit on her own.

My wife spent a few sleepless nights when she used to hard no, thinking how the fuck she cannot use sex as a weapon anymore and was so conflicted that on the one hand her body wants her to get fucked, but her mind wants to hold a frame of misery and denial.

Eventually she caved, I was out of that conflict in her little head. It was eventually very apparent that it was much more painful for her to say no .

Let her hamster work.

And what the fuck is this contractual day of sex thing? instant mood killer. Get rid of it.

[–]stew7000[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Glad to hear that success story. I'll stick with it. With regard to scheduled sex, its sounding like a pretty large consensus here that I end that. The question is: how? I am sure my wife will want to "talk about it" and it will really set the hamster. I want to flawlessly execute the end of the scheduled sex. Do I do it ON the day? A couple days before? Day after (cuz it'll likely be starfish and she may think about that if I end it day after).

[–]innominating2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

A tab on verba.

Be busy on sex day a few times on a row. And initiate other days.

Don't say anything about anything.

[–]mrpthrowa0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I want to flawlessly execute the end of the scheduled sex.

A sign you're overthinking it. The next time scheduled sex subject comes up just say "scheduled sex is a stupid idea, I'll have sex when I feel like it".. Emphasis on when you want to. Don't give a fuck what she says, don't justify, you're a man and you don't answer to anyone.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

after the hard NO she said she goes to bed feeling guilty every night.

I am not seeing the problem. Unless she just had pussy surgery she has to make a decision. Do I want to stop playing the God Damn power games and just shut up and fuck my husband, or do I want to stop and let him take the wheel for just a bit.

I said in my book but it was an edit from Jack10:

The general idea is to start ignoring her for bad behaviors and rewarding her with your valuable attention and good will for her good behaviors. The trick is you need to limit your withdrawal of time, attention, and good will (“presence” and “affection”) ONLY for denials of sex, not usually for other “bad behaviors.” She should feel good when she is good, but if she is being bad, and only you are feeling it, that is a problem.

[–]FrogTrainer2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

You initiate every single day? Perfect. Stop initiating, completely. Do this right AFTER you tell her you can drop the 1 day a week scheduled sex. Then just happily go about your business of improving yourself.

[–]stew7000[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

See some of my comments above, I'd love insight about flawlessly executing the ending of scheduled sex.

[–]FrogTrainer1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'd go with something like this: "this scheduled sex isn't really working for me, just seems forced"

[–]SexistFlyingPig3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy

Give it a rest for a week. Let her be attracted to you. She is attracted, but she can't get her motor going before you're in the engine room.

You've made changes, but they're small, incremental changes every day. These are hard for her to see, since she sees you every day.

When you constantly ask her for sex, you're giving her constant validation. You're putting all the power into her hands. She knows that you couldn't possibly be getting attention from another woman, because you're so focused on her. She doesn't have to lift a finger to get your attention. Heck, she doesn't even have to fuck you.

You've lost weight. You've gained muscle. You're getting more valuable by the day. Why can't you see that you are the prize? She sees what you see, and since your opinion of yourself is so low, her opinion of you is low too.

[–]stew7000[S] -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy

Thanks man. This may be my fave advice in this thread as much as I've enjoyed initiating daily. I'll think about giving it a rest for a week or so. What's your take on ending scheduled sex? End it (if so how)? Keep it?

[–]JDRoedellRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Tell her it's not how you want to do things anymore. You want to be more spontaneous. If she really digs in, tell her you'd be happy to spend time and give her attention on thursdays at 6pm only. Have a lot of hobbies and other shit to do before you try this. you also need to be lighthearted and positive when you say this

[–]SexistFlyingPig0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

End scheduled sex. It seems like you've been operating under a scarcity mentality so long that your head is all messed up.

Your goal isn't to get your wife to fuck you. Your goal is to become the man that lots of women want to fuck. When you lift, dress better, and handle your business, you become universally attractive. Your wife should feel privileged to be the one who gets to get nailed by you regularly.

Part of her feelings are based on your appearance and confidence. Part of her feelings are based on how other women see you. Read the 12 levels of Dread. If she believes that you have options, and lots of women will take her place, then she will be much more interested in locking you down with sex. If your stomach is full and your balls are empty, you probably won't go looking elsewhere.

When you beg her for sex every day, you are telling her that you have no other options.

[–]BobbyPeru2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

She feels guilty because she doesn't want to fuck you, and the fairytale says that man and wife should want to fuck each other.

Lift, sidebar, dread... Become attractive

I suspect you'll get butthurt and downvote and /or delete your post.

Truth is harsh sometimes, but that's what swallowing the red pill is.

[–]JDRoedellRed Beret1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

I think this falls into the "her fee fees are hers to figure out." She feels guilty? Not your fucking problem. Just be non butthurt and OI. I'm saying this to myself as much as I am you because I need to alter my own reaction to this as well. I have been encountering similar reactions from the wife. See my two most recent OYS posts for a recent example of me failing this shitty comfort test. I failed to STFU and failed by letting her spew her emotional blame on me and my desire for sex. As a result I have to do a reset with my map and press on.

[–]stew7000[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Stay strong. You're not alone. Can you link that post you're referring to?

[–]JDRoedellRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Weekly OYS (own your shit) in the main marriedredpill sub. My post from week of January 3rd. Or check my post history. Pm if you still can't find it

[–]470_2_700_nm1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Her guilt and hamstering is none of your concern.

10 years of beta, and you are 2 months in. So she just starting to feel the heat. Mine didn't even decide to think about physical fitness on her part until 3 months in. DO NOT SAY SHIT TO HER ABOUT THIS. Just keep doing what you are doing, it sounds like you are on the right track.

One good way to deal with the guilt is offer her examples of how to suppress this guilt.

Be a dutiful husband and offer ideas of "here suck my dick like you are trying to remove the chrome from a bumper hitch", or "Honey, I care about your feelings. I don't know for sure, but if I'm balls deep in your pussy I'll bet you that feeling will go away". Or you could just ignore it all and keep going.

My personal experience, is this road out of nowhere has many ups and downs along the way.

[–]stew7000[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

Ups and downs for sure. She's swearing at me one minute (she has never sworn until I started down this path), but be then she'll very respectful, agree to tasks I request, cook all the meals (this very new and very nice) and generally seem in much better spirits around me most of the time - even shortly after her little blowups.

[–]470_2_700_nm0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah I think really it's coming from you being a better person.

If she is swearing at you and you don't like it I would suggest you impose a boundary.

Keep goin man us little guys with 2 or 4 months concerted effort. It's just peanuts for where we can go. Go slow don't Rambo and you will be awesome.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

"Third, stop giving a fuck and start being outcome independent. Really outcome independent. Not rolling over and going silent. Not storming out to your car and going out. Initiate with your wife, and if she rejects you, shrug, give her a kiss on the head, and go sand that shelf you're building in the garage or work on your car or paint a picture or read a book or anything except rolling over and stonewalling her or storming off in a huff (I know you're not actually doing those things, and you think you're displaying outcome independence by going to bed or going out -- but she is interpreting your behavior as being butt-hurt)."

Read until blind

When you reach, "I could give ten fucks," it becomes a whole different ball game

[–]470_2_700_nm0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

anything except rolling over and stonewalling her or storming off in a huff

My experience is any gains made with this approach are short lived.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

How many other women do you interact with in a day?

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Probably a few (<5) each day - I'm going to go out of my way to interact with more. My wife knows I can charm/sweet talk my way into or out of any situation. She told me she and her friends joked that whoever married me would get all kinds of deals and special privileges. I'll have to wield that sword more often.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

That sounds a lot different than her acting right to keep her man happy.

That sounds like she got herself a wonderful little plow horse

[–]Blunter-S-Thompson0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

AHEMMM ^

So her and the fellow shrews were admittedly clamoring about how the lucky girl to snag you will get to take complete advantage and "special privileges" ???

Only guilt i'm sensing is that of a woman who is upset upon realizing her special privileges do not outweigh that of a mind blowing O-face.

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah she definitely hasn't been lucky past 10 yrs. Looking to change that tho.

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

For 10 yrs prior, I made a pretty great plow horse. True this.



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