659,329 posts

Ok, But What About Love?

by ParadoxThatDrivesUs | March 06, 2016 | askMRP

15 upvotes

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Do I have stop loving my wife for red pill to work?

Married 13 years, red pill about two months - check my OYS if you want more context. Just got turned down for sex after what I thought was a great day of gaming her, mutual flirting, etc. Left the house for a long walk. I have a long way to go, but after lifting four months, I'm in the best shape of my life, by far. Wife is a good looking woman, but she's also 48 years old. She hit the wall years ago, and she's not going to find another man like me. She's just not.

It's obvious to me in this moment that everything I've done with red pill has been for her, not myself. I'm lifting for her, so that she will want me. Covert contract, and it's not working because she still doesn't want me.

I've got oneitis bad for her - she's my wife, the mother of my children, and I love her. And judging by both words and actions, I love her more than she does me.

I've noticed that nothing in the sidebar talks about love, at least nothing positive. It's oneitis, a weakness to weed out of your soul, because the person who cares least controls the relationship. So do I have to extinguish my love for my wife for this to work? I could do that, I think. But the only reason I'm with my wife is because I love her. What's the point of winning the battle and preserving the relationship if the price is that I have to stop caring about the relationship? I can win my wife back, but only if I force myself to stop caring for her? Is that the price?


Post Information
Title Ok, But What About Love?
Author ParadoxThatDrivesUs
Upvotes 15
Comments 22
Date 06 March 2016 05:30 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/207622
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/4962bi/ok_but_what_about_love/
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Comments

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy

You need to learn to love yourself first, then you can love others.

Most men come to MRP as whipped, docile husbands by some pretty verbally and emotionally abusive wives. They have spent their entire marriages with that fucking "happy wife, happy life" bullshit mantra playing in their heads. MRP says, fuck that. She's responsible for her own happiness and you are responsible for yours.

So, if you do what makes you happy and she is unhappy about that, what are you going to do? Because you love her, go back to placating her?

It turns out that most women really want a strong, high value man. There is nothing that says this man can't love his wife. But, a high value man has expectations, and if the wife can't meet these, he has to be ready to walk. It's up to each individual to decide what standards he wants.

I love my wife dearly. But I also have limits. Love or not, if she crosses those limits, I'm gone. Luckily for me, my wife isn't the typical wife you hear about from mrp men. She's WAY hornier than I am and wants a husband that will lead the family.

The road you should be on right now is strictly about bettering yourself. I wouldn't change anything about the dynamics in your relationship, except go to the gym religiously. Work on yourself. Become a high value man. Chances are the attraction from her will come as you continue to improve.

[–]SDSAM214 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Nailed it in the first sentence, IMO.

[–]jacktenofheartsRed Beret11 points12 points  (4 children) | Copy

I'm gonna do you a favor and parse this out for you, before everyone jumps on you for asking a retarded question.

First, read this. Well, read the OP, then /u/whinemoreplease's epic deconstruction. Like you, this guy was still working under the misguided assumption that all this self-improvement entitles him to his wife's attraction. Except he's held that assumption for two years, while you seem to be self-aware of this and can openly admit it in a much shorter time frame.

because the person who cares least controls the relationship

Look, this is functionally true, but you're being way too narrow-minded when you consider this.

She hit the wall years ago, and she's not going to find another man like me. She's just not.

Let me summarize the conflicted and tortured thinking that went on in your head during your walk.


How can she just turn me down like that? Everything was going so well! Doesn't she realize how disappointing that is? Why would she so cavalierly disappoint her husband? Does she just assume there won't be any consequences? Especially after all this improvement, what does she think a husband who's wife doesn't fuck him is going to do? Just be cool and accept it? I could see her maybe turning me down for sex four months ago when I was flabby and lazy, but I've done so much shit since then! I'm in shape, I've run the household like a champ, our family and kids are thriving -- plus everything else I was doing before. Does she really think a guy like that grows on trees, and if I don't accept a sexless marriage then she'll find someone else?

But... would I really refuse to accept this? If she doesn't put out, then we're done? How could it be that simple? I don't want to be done. I love her. I love our family. I don't want to leave her. Where would I go? I have no friends but her friends. I have no family of my own. Sometimes I'm tempted to put some distance between us, maybe that's what it'll take for her to finally stop taking me for granted. But even if she became affectionate and sexual in response, it's only over her anxiety at losing me, not because she actually wants me. And what if even THAT doesn't work!? At the end of the day, would I really pull the trigger on a divorce? I don't know. But what if it's only the authentic potential that our marriage is at risk, that would get her to realize the consequences of our sexless marriage?


Sound about right?

The only thing negative things about love I've read on Red Pill is about unconditional love. It simply does not exist. It only exists between parents and children, and even then when the child becomes an adult, it becomes just as conditional as any other adult-to-adult relationship. I love you, so I treat you with love. You love me, so you treat me with love. If you say you love me and don't treat me with love, well, go fuck yourself. You don't need to be some unfeeling Dark Triad psychopath to do this. Just, you know, stop being kind and generous to people who treat you shitty.

And the only people who struggle to realize this is when the alternative to "stop being kind and generous to people who treat you shitty" is being alone. Because man, do we fucking hate to be alone -- or rather, we hate being lonely, both men and women, and it's no surprise that the same genetics that require us to pair-bond to reproduce, probably make us feel uncomfortable at the idea of being an estranged hermit with little intimate human contact. So, you know, it's not weak shit to feel that way. Seriously man. I know I feel that way.

But, it's just weak shit when you put your wife on a pedestal, and allow your life to devolve to the point where you're terrified at the idea of divorce, because you know it'll mean even less intimacy with human beings except for your kids, and you're already miserable enough with the scraps of intimacy you do get. Which is probably why it sounds like the MRP vets sound so cavalier in our advice, but realize what fuels all this. Our "rock bottom" probably isn't nearly as dire as yours, because at least for me, my life isn't just my wife and family, and divorce to me doesn't mean my kids vanish into a puff of smoke, never to be seen again. I'm terrified of being lonely, but getting divorced doesn't mean I'll be lonely. So I'm not afraid of divorce. See the distinction?

But that's easy for me to say, I've already been divorced, and I didn't have the barren social bonds with other people that you seemingly do. I still went through the usual anguish of "oh god now I'll never see my son and he'll inevitably be psychologically destroyed and blahblahblah," but... it didn't turn out that way for me, and it usually doesn't for most people.

I say all this because let's be clear: your post isn't about love, and it's definitely not about unconditional love. It's just about a man terrified that his two choices are:

  1. Accept your marriage may never have the dynamic you've always wanted, but at least you probably won't die alone.
  2. Refuse to accept that, strive for the kinds of sexually intimate relations with women you've always wanted, but risk dying alone.

Right? Red or blue, baby. I know you don't want to go down that rabbit hole. It's dark and scary and who the fuck knows what's down there? The blue pill means you get to keep eating steak, even if it's just some TV tray "steak" that barely qualifies as consisting of actual meat.

If you came to MRP from /r/DeadBedrooms, then I don't need to tell you how many guys there feel these are their only two options. The saddest -- "sad" both in how fucking pathetic these fuckers are, but also how I really can't help but pity anyone whose has reached the emotional depths to even consider this -- are those asking about chemical castration or other techniques to destroy their sex drive. They don't want the Blue Pill, they want a figurative lobotomy so they can exist completely ignorant that Option #2 even exists.

[–]jacktenofheartsRed Beret8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy

So, tell ya what, buddy. I'm gonna make this really simple for you. Everyone's going to tell you that your question is retarded, and Red Pill is all about you, and blahblahblah. But you actually seem introspective and self-aware, despite the pathetic phrasing of your question vis a vis "love," to already know all that. So I'm going to give you that advice, but in a way that will make it seem like your choices aren't this shitty dichotomy between sexual frustration and dying alone.

De-risk your downside. You'll stop being so afraid of your "rock bottom." I have a few friends in the entertainment industry, and nearly two decades ago, one of them finally got a potential "break" for one of his scripts. I asked him if he was nervous -- finally, all his hard work could pay off, how could he even sleep at night? A he said, Dude, if this works out, all this means is that I'm finally able to grab on to the lowest rung of the ladder in this industry. But if I fell off, exactly how far am I going to fall? And if you saw a day in this guy's life, it wasn't a successful life by typical metrics but it was a good life. He lived with two good friends a few miles from the beach. He'd work on his writing from 8am to 3pm, then he'd work as a personal trainer in the afternoon and evening, and bartend on weekends -- both jobs left him with no shortage of dating options.

He later theorized the reason why so many people don't "make it" in Hollywood is their downside is too de-risked. They are having too much fun, irrelevant to their success, that it's easy to not be disciplined about being successful. Like my friend said, falling off that first rung of the ladder doesn't hurt that much, so who cares if you fall? Is it possible for an Abundance Mentality to backfire if you have too much abundance? So many appealing secondary options that you don't even care if you ever accomplish your primary one? Something to think about.

But hopefully it's painfully clear to you that you have the opposite problem. You have no abundance, not just with sex, but really any interpersonal relationships of any kind. So, time to change that. Go do shit, and make some friends. Making new guy friends is simultaneously stupidly simple and really hard, because it mostly consists of show up, do something with other guys, bond over time. That's it. Show the fuck up, work hard at whatever your shared goals are, be friendly. You don't even need to be particularly social, although of course that helps. It's really that simple. It will take several months, if not years, which is why it's hard. But that's it.

This will accomplish two things. One, on whatever ladder you feel you're clinging on to, you'll start being able to see the floor. Two, these new social bonds will get you out of the house, get you away from being butthurt about your wife's latest sexual rejection, and any "distance" she perceives will be authentic and organic behavior from you, not just some calculated posturing to induce a particular anxious emotional reaction. Three, the social bonds could actually enhance your relationship. New people to hang out with, new people for you to invite over for dinner, new people with kids your friends may become friends with.

Four -- given your barren social life, I'm almost positive your wife's contempt for you is akin to how a mother feels about a cloying and touchy toddler some days. You've demanded so much of her attention over the years that suggesting more attention -- ie. sex -- always comes across as some sort of "last straw" for her, which is why she reacts with such hostility. You're like a toddler whining about candy, and you get some candy, and then you go, "but I want the cherry-flavored kind!" Any wonder why she's so quick to go, "no, are you fucking kidding me!?" Same when you get sick. Yeah, it's showing weakness, which is distasteful to most women, but it may be especially aggravating to your wife, who feels you were already being cloying and needy enough in your everyday existence, that a physical illness garners zero extra sympathy from her.

You may not feel you were doing this in particular, but you may have been. I know from my first marriage, my wife hated when I stayed in and watched TV like a loser whenever she did anything social with her girlfriends. And she'd snark, so, all you did the past four hours was keep watching this Real World marathon? And I'd ask her what the fuck her problem was, and she'd just roll her eyes and act exasperated. She did her thing, I did mine, what the fuck did it matter? But it just reinforced how she was pretty much single social bond, which gets really fucking wearying even if that bond isn't asking anything of you. Some guys here have the inverse situation -- after an hour or two with a buddy at happy hour, they start thinking, Hmm. I should probably get back home. Because they feel burdened that without their presence, their spouse is just boredly spinning her gears in front of the TV or a smartphone screen, and they feel bad about that.

It's like leaving an elderly loved one with Alzheimer's in front of the TV all day. Are you going to feel good about that, even if they don't care enough to complain to you?

So, that's my prescription. Make some friends. Stop putting the burden of social bonds on your wife. I suspect her reactions to your fitness, like how you mentioned she started jogging again, isn't some reflexive "oh no he's getting sexier so I need to step up my game," but rather a relieved, Oh, he's actually doing something out of the house and exercising. Maybe I can exercise again too, now that it's something we're both doing. So, do more of that. She'll probably do more of her own thing. This is actually good. In the meantime, I'd suggest putting a moratorium on sex. It's painfully clear you are hamstering way too much every time you get sexually rejected, so just stop. If you can't audition for casting calls without breaking down into a hot mess every time, then maybe stop auditioning for awhile.

Eventually your wife will say something like, "hey stranger" or "I feel like I haven't seen you all week." This is her missing you, missing your presence, something that might be a very rare feeling in your marriage. It might even come be a Shit Test, where she rants about you "being out of the house all the time." Agree/amplify, slap her on the butt, say, "Aw, you miss me honey?" When you get to this point, you can try initiating sex again.


You can't make your wife love you. But you can do things to make your life less shitty if you conclude she'll never love you the way you want, and need to end the marriage. And doing those things may actually make her love you the way you do want.

It's not that easy, but it is that simple. Best of luck.

[–]ParadoxThatDrivesUs[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy

Yeah, that's pretty spot on. I'll never forget the moment I realized the problem was with me, not her: wife was standing by the sink, looking hot, and the kids and I were all happy that she was home, and we all wanted her attention. I let them go first with their "look at me mommy" moments and watched patiently. Finally they finished with her and I moved in, put my hand on her ass, and she said, not in anger but almost a kind of sad resignation that is burned into my memory, "why does everyone want to be my best friend?"

Cut me to the core. I realized I was clinging to her just like the kids. All of my righteous complaints about her coldness suddenly flipped, and I saw myself through her eyes. Through some sort of harmonic convergence I found red pill the next day.

I jumped on lifting as the cure, and it's been great, but I suspect part of the appeal is that it plays to my strengths. Going into a room alone and doing hard shit is my bread and butter. Everything I have in my life comes from that discipline. But you are right that I'm not going to find the solution to loneliness in that room.

[–]mrpCamper0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Oh man, I can see this picture so vividly. So, close to my own experience. AWALT perhaps? I hear what you are saying and I can only say that it makes more sense as you improve in all the necessary areas (Lifting, dieting, OI, keeping frame, establishing your own social life and learn to talk to everyone, not wasting your time on crap, developing interesting hobbies etc.). It's a marathon and you have to keep it up but you'll get there if you keep improving and don't nuke anything before hand.

When I came here about 10 months ago my wife was a nice lady who looked good but I knew that I loved her so much and I felt she really didn't much care for me anywhere near as much as I did. I found this place looking for an answer to why. Now I know. Now, I have begun, and made significant progress towards, my development into a place where this doesn't bother me and I am confident in my marriage's relationship. What does that mean? It means I love my wife. I feel she loves me and I trust and respect her more than I did 10 months ago. I will trust and respect her more, the more I become the awesome sauce!!

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

You know how you cannot raise your children properly by being their friend all the time? You must be their father and lay down rules that kids need despite the fact that they dont want to follow these guidelines.

This is truly deep paternal love. Its unselfish.

This is how you also love the women in your life. This love is the real thing and its why women crave red pill men who "get it". The whole fucking world wants and needs a father/protector figure.

The shocking truth that the red pill teaches us is that this sugarcoated love that feminized men today expect does not exist. Society foisted a sack of bullshit on todays man and he has turned his lover into a mommy and she rightfully is disgusted by his emotional displays.

So love is real, its just not the love you were conditioned to expect.

[–]cj_aubreyRed Beret4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

In the past I have confused a number of things with love

  • Alleviating my persistent, chronic, maddening fear of being not good enough with someone else's attention, approval, acceptance and sex.

  • My gratitude for someone helping with my children and this mixing with my legit love for my children.

  • Its fun having sex and not risking judgement or rejection

  • Not having to face life, illness and death alone.

  • Alleviating my fear of societal judgement against those without a spouse

  • Alleviating my fear that there is something wrong with me and I'll never find anyone.

But I don't reckon any of that is love. All of the above (aside from the stuff with kids) is desperate and clingy. OP, you sound kind of desperate and clingy, are you sure there isn't some fear underneath this that you're dressing up like love?

[–]SorcererKingMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

We all die alone. Just sayin'.

[–]cj_aubreyRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Indeed. What does this mean to you?

[–]ex_addict_broRed Beret3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I can win my wife back, but only if I force myself to stop caring for her?

I don't think you get it.

I care about my wife and I will care about her even if we split our ways. I have some rules, I have some options, we have 3 kids, this is what I will do, no matter what. Doing otherwise did not felt all right for me. This is my conscious choice. I'm not doing that to get something in exchange though. The things I think about, that I describe as "caring" - I'm going to do them, no matter what, "unconditionally", why not.

This is not to get anything from her. This is not a form of oneitis. This is my decision, my choice. And no, this is not about "relationship" as in "man-woman sexual relationship". This is about "relationship with the wife". That's all. "Man-woman sexual relationship" is another thing, with another set of rules.

[–]Terminal-Psychosis3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

First thing is to give up on the idea of getting unconditional Mama Love from a grown woman. The love we got from our moms is not something a mate can do without hating you after a while.

No woman (or girl for that matter) wants to go to bed with someone playing the roll of son.

[–]SepeanRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Love is a real emotion. It is not going away just because of the red pill, and MMSLP for example mentions in plenty.

Love and oneitis isn't the same - oneitis is unhealthy and counterproductive love. Oneitis is being willing to settle for crap and it will make her despise you. It's oneitis you have to kill, not love.

If I wrote a guide that said you shouldn't eat junk food that tasted like shit and fucked up your health, how would that imply that you couldn't eat your favorite foods? If you love ice cream, eat ice cream; just get the handmade italian stuff instead of the cheap shit with synthetic taste and a ton of additives.

[–]FearDearg2015Mod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

This reminds me a lot of my victim puke last year. The thing is, your version of love is the Disney twu wuv story. I love my wife more now than I ever did before, the Sex is better than it ever was before (for both of us, and she initiates now too), she's got a physically and mentally stronger husband than she ever did before, our kids have a better dad etc.

Everyone walks their own path, and your life is yours to do with as you want.

[–]SexistFlyingPig1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

This is one of the final understandings you can come to after swallowing the red pill: acceptance. She is not like you and she never will be. Live the difference. Love the difference.

You "win the battle" for dominance with your wife BECAUSE you love her and you want what's best for her. Have you see children who are dominant over their parents? They're fucking miserable all the time. It's the same way with women who are dominant over their men. They're really not happy with it. It's soooo much easier (for her) to be attached to a guy who handles what needs to be handled, leaving her to worry about little things.

She needs you to be the rock that she can be with. She wants to do fun things and having a strong man at her side lets her go anywhere she wants and do anything she wants because he can handle whatever comes their way.

Let me tell you a story of a client of mine. He's a great guy, has good work that pays quite well, but he's unhappy with his wife. I tell him a little about the Red Pill, and the Dread game. Now, for him, things are going pretty well, but his wife isn't as affectionate as he might want. One day he goes to a wedding. There's a very attractive older woman (his age) sitting by herself in one row. He sits next to her and strikes up light conversation. Shortly thereafter, his kids and wife show up, filling out the row beyond him. His wife isn't normally very attentive towards him at gatherings like this. But after the ceremony, he's mingling with the crowd, and bumps into the fine older lady again. They are chatting and everything is going fine. Suddenly, his wife appears next to him with a glass of wine (to match hers) for him to drink while they both mingle.

This is something his wife would not normally do, but she suddenly realizes that she has a pretty great guy who is good to her, and loyal to her, but that has options. She realizes that there are other women out there who have gotten divorced, who have no man and are looking for adventure. If she doesn't want "adventure" to include her husband, she had better do something about it.

In the months that follow, he talks more and more about the positives in his marriage and the fun he is having. His spirits have definitely improved.

You've just begun your red pill journey. Congrats on being in the best shape of your life. This is part of dread level 0, but it doesn't mean anything until SHE SEES that your changes have started to draw the attention of other women. Dress better and improve your hygiene. This is probably a lot easier than just lifting, and will have a larger effect. You say that you know you're the best she could get, but she feels that she has you and doesn't have to do anything to keep you. I'm not saying you should cheat (quite the opposite). I'm saying that you can make it clear (through social proof) that you could cheat, that other women find you attractive.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

No, read the trp sidebar post titles "how women love"

You can still do so, you just don't make it unconditional, and based on reality, not aspirational

[–]ford_contourRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

You love her like you (should) love chocolate.

Chocolate is a heavenly experience that you ought to be making time for daily, or at least several times per week.

But it's not like you can't go a week, a year, or the rest of your life without it, if you found out you were allergic to it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

She's currently who she is now thanks to how you're behaving. But your oneitis is self imposed... it has no bearing on a healthy love. It's a desperate clingy , chick-turning off kind of love.

A girl that knows she's the ONLY girl for you (or that you'll get) quickly will get the idea she got duped into being the one saddled with someone nobody else wanted.

Now... if you were a raging angry ball of hate you'd need to learn to accept her...while you work on yourself.

Personally, post the whole process, I'd say I love my wife more.

I have no unrealistic expectations of my wife. I don't love/hate her depending on how she's acting (since she'll act great or bad depending on how we interact or how the moon is pulling on her). Regardless it affects my self-worth:0%.

Definitely wasn't loving her as a self-allowingly whipped beta asshole who was quietly seething with impotent rage at the situation.

It also pays to focus on REALITY and the PRACTICAL while implementation. Getting caught up in though exercises and the deeper meaning of your love for your wife is a tangent.

[–]exbp1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

If your wife has the impression that you'll love her "no matter what" then she will abuse that power sooner or later. She will see that commitment as a weakness on your part and she will physically find you less worthy.

Most men are here because they could not understand why their wives did not want them anymore. And most of them would have rather found any other explanation & solution. No one loves RP but it's the truth, accept and use it or not.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Poignant. Two things I'd say. One, you'll be happier when you decide to accept that your love is only yours and not a lever or ignition for anyone else and two, get yourself to a place where you can live just fine with it, but without the object of it.

It's not that fun to learn that second part "on the job" so to speak.

[–]pullypants0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Your question gets right to the heart of why so many of us end up here, and you've got some great replies.

For me the abundance mentality really helps with that oneitis. Talk to other women, go out with friends, sign up (carefully anonymously) to online dating sites, chat up everyone you see hot or not. Realizing she's not a special snowflake doesn't mean you don't love her, but it does take the fear of loss out of loving her.

I still slip, I still want her way more than (I think - she does play the game very well) she wants me, but I let on far less and that really helps.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Do I have stop loving my wife for red pill to work?

Absolutely not! Love is a drug and a dangerous drug but, well, drugs can be a lot of fun if you are careful with them. However, don't expect us to hock that dangerous drug on the sidebar.

Almost all guys coming here don't have the problem that they don't love their wife. They have the problem that they love her MORE than they love themselves.

What's the point of winning the battle and preserving the relationship if the price is that I have to stop caring about the relationship?

This is actually a wonderful question. You don't have to stop caring completely. You DO have to stop caring as much as you do and start caring more about yourself.

I can win my wife back, but only if I force myself to stop caring for her? Is that the price?

This is indeed a part of the price. Women love differently than us. They say they want a man fawning over them and doing whatever they say. Then they lose interest in having sex with that man. What they really want is a man who has so much going in their life they have little time or energy for them- so that means all that masculine energy is VALUABLE.

Scarceness = Valuable

Abundance = NOT Valuable

If sex is scarce in your relationship then she has made it valuable and will use it like a bat to bludgeon you into submission.

If loving acts are common they are NOT valuable.

If loving acts are scarce they ARE valuable.

Make your love valuable by making it scarce- NOT non-existent, but scarce.

Be the Skittles Guy, not the needy, wimpy husband.



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